UAE pulls out of Eurofighter deal...?

[Biggus]

BBC News - UAE pulls out of Eurofighter deal (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25445897)

[Dengue_Dude]

Ooops . . .

[PURPLE PITOT]

Not a surprise since the fraud squad stopped them doing business in the "traditional" manner.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

you mean Sheik Abdul al-Bakander & his mates?

[orca]

Well, you could ask what the sales pitch was...

Look here foreigner, we've (and when I say we it's a four nation model of efficiency) got this wonder jet that we think you ought to buy. If you look at this glossy sales brochure you can see that it might one day carry more than the Paveway 2 and we might start actually putting an AESA in it at some point.

We would like to refute the notion that something cost so much that it meant chopping handy capabilities like MPA (which is in any case optional for an island nation), and even if it did that something wasn't necessarily Typhoon.

We would also question what in the hell you think you know about aeroplanes and what your Block 60 F-16s and 2000-9s actually bring to the party. We can tell by the fact that you have less than a quarter of our employees and almost as many aircraft that you don't take this seriously at all.

So you just jolly well buy our aeroplane and put down that F-18 pamphlet now, what on earth can a JDAM, Maverick, JSOW, Harpoon, SLAM-ER, maritime mine, 9X capability do for your location anyway?

;)

[airpolice]

What a shame that the Baron hadn't stiched them up in a "Carrier" type deal where it would be more expensive to cancel than to buy.....



Oh wait, it's only the MOD who sign their (our) futures away like that.

[orca]

Why's it a shame? It can't possibly be a shame that no one's as stupid as us -being the most stupid tidies things up markedly. Imagine if we were half way up the batting order - that would be confusing.

[I fix planes I duz]

Didn't realise Warton was in Leicestershire. Accurate reporting as ever by the Beeb........ Still, good price lowering tactic by the UAE.

[cuefaye]

The effort to sell Typhoon to the UAE began way back in 1995. I know: I was one of the few players intimately involved at the outset. Then, and now, it's all about brinkmanship, large backhanders and personal relationships. Our current Prime Minister is an Eton amateur in all of that. So terribly naïve.

[500N]

"Our current Prime Minister is an Eton amateur in all of that. So terribly naïve."

So his advisers are at fault for not pointing this out in strong words
and making sure that the person standing next to him is the right
person.

Be it David Beckham, the CAS or whoever.

[Bill Macgillivray]

I was completely unaware that Warton was in Leicestershire (BBC News):rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[racedo]

This has more to do with the US-Iran rapproachment as UAE happy to do a deal with Iran on mutual terms.

[MrBernoulli]

I am surprised that it has taken this long for a Gulf state to effectively tell BAE Sytems to swivel. Their kit is always over-priced, under-performing and years late. A surpise? Not at all .....

[Uncle Ginsters]

Oh well, at least all that diplomacy and time away in the UAE on 'exercises' hasn't been wasted...Oh, wait a minute...

[Dengue_Dude]

I was completely unaware that Warton was in Leicestershire (BBC News)

You really haven't absorbed the concepts of stealth and disinformation have you Bill ? :O

[racedo]

Oh well, at least all that diplomacy and time away in the UAE on 'exercises' hasn't been wasted...Oh, wait a minute...

January / February - Norway or UAE......
Yeah I understand that is a hard shout.:confused:

[sandozer]

Before any further Bae comments are posted :=, Eurofighter Typhoon is a multinational project, Bae having less than 40% of the total work share.

[Uncle Ginsters]

January / February - Norway or UAE......
Yeah I understand that is a hard shout.

Erm, no, not at all - most of the summer in 45C+ straining a busy Op base. Where did Norway come from? I'd take Norway any day, all year round, if I'm honest :confused:

[TBM-Legend]

Before any further Bae comments are posted , Eurofighter Typhoon is a multinational project, Bae having less than 40% of the total work share.


BAe are the marketers in that part of the world and with 40% involvement I would think they have a vested interest. I guess when the girls and grog stopped so did the contract!!!

[cuefaye]

500 - Quite possibly

[gijoe]

They had a choice - they chose not to....

Time and money are a plenty in the UAE.

...and the PM of a little ex-Superpower visiting carries little favour in the place...

G:ok:

[racedo]

Erm, no, not at all - most of the summer in 45C+ straining a busy Op base. Where did Norway come from? I'd take Norway any day, all year round, if I'm honest http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

Take your point re summer temp which is why suggested Jan / Feb and the contrast in locations.
Hot v Cold :E.

[racedo]

Thinking about this even further that if couple of other countries start to follow this path of stopping orders for kit (not just aircraft) then where does this leave BAE / Boeing etc etc who rely on it.

Scary idea for them.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Are we to believe that this is the first sale to an Arab State in history where hospitality and other friendship considerations have not crossed a table? As has already been mentioned, is it possible that BASE have made no effort to oil the the wheels of commerce for fear of accusations of corruption?

Now and again, we get what we wish for.

[West Coast]

Yup, take the warm weather over that frozen crap all year long.

[dctyke]

I used to look forward to Bardufoss Dets in February......... and Norway is lovely in summer.

[Jackonicko]

An MoD Press Release on 17th December included the following.

"Fiction: The MOD is exporting UAS to many different countries

Fact: The Government does not export UAS. The UK takes its arms export responsibilities very seriously operating one of the most robust export licensing regimes in the world. Quite rightly, these regulations apply to any UK based manufacturers wishing to export UAS in exactly the same way as for any other defence related exports."

As I read it, I thought: "Ooh. The Emiratis aren't going to like that."

Because the Typhoon deal there was always about much more than just selling them a fighter.......

[Roland Pulfrew]

The Government does not export UAS. The UK takes its arms export responsibilities very seriously operating one of the most robust export licensing regimes in the world. Quite rightly, these regulations apply to any UK based manufacturers wishing to export UAS in exactly the same way as for any other defence related exports."

As I read it, I thought: "Ooh. The Emiratis aren't going to like that."

Because the Typhoon deal there was always about much more than just selling them a fighter.......

Who would have thought it? The UK government with mutualluy exclusive policies? Surely not? An ethically based exports policy (what a waste of time) v a desire to sell death dealing war machines to help the UK's regeneration.

Now where do I buy a pistol to shoot myself in the foot - again? :rolleyes:

[racedo]

An ethically based Arms exports policy


Yup a contracdiction in terms but its designed and approved by politicians and business.

[Marchettiman]

"Ethical arms policy"?? Tell that one to the French, Belgians, Americans et alii.
Perhaps the UK government should appoint the Co-Op as it's military equipment Sales agent. My local branch won't even stock the Shooting Times Magazine; that apparently is what being ethical is all about.

[Speedywheels]

"As BAE have said, it was an exciting prospect but not part of their business plan," they added.

Well I don't know who at BAE Systems made this statement but its contrary to information that has been provided to me directly from Samlesbury and Warton. It was No.1 on their latest list of export targets and it was suggested to me in the last couple of weeks that the deal was close to being done. So either BAE S were over confident with their chances or something went wrong at the final hurdle.

The way things are going, the only thing they have to cling onto is the hope that the current customers buy into the Eurofighter 2020 upgrade program. With the recent redundancies announced at EADS/Cassidian/Airbus, all is not well in the Eurofighter garden :eek:

[Jackonicko]

My understanding is that, from a BAE Systems PoV, the deal was more than "close to being done" - it was done, at least insofar as the aircraft spec and pricing had been agreed.

But what hadn't been done was the IP transfer, the offsets, the local industrial participation, and nor had the UAS side of the deal been done (and how could it, really, with the credibility of UK UAS future work somewhat compromised by the lack of clear future funding, by the absence of real requirement documents, and by the clearly slow progress on Taranis?).

Add to this the patchy defence diplomacy effort (lots of ATLCs, but none of the kind of deep relationships that the French have established in the region, no permanent deployments, no reason to assume that the UK would cosset and cuddle the UAE on ops as the AdlA did for the Qataris in the Libyan op).

And add to that the Arab world's disappointment at the UK's weak and watery position on Syria, at some of the news reporting of Islamic related matters, and MBZ's reported pique at Cameron's fleeting, flitting appearance at the Dubai air show, and you would perhaps not be surprised at today's result.

Indeed you might be surprised that the UAE's disengagement was amicable, gentle, and even tenuous, apparently leaving the door open for further negotiation - unlike the humiliating slap down delivered to Dassault when the Rafale was rejected in November 2011.

But it clearly came as a surprise to HMG and BAE, a bolt from the blue, because everyone had expected the decision to slide into January or February, giving the IP offering time to 'mature' and for clarity to emerge on UASs.

[downsizer]

Good, lets sh1tcan shaheen stars ASAP and get the f*ck out of the ME ASAP...

Sadly, that won't happen IMHO:(

[downsizer]

Speedywheels

That ties in nicely with what some BAe people told me recently. They had a lot riding on that deal, and with F35 deep maintenance locations undecided they were, to put it bluntly, sh1tting it!

[cuefaye]

Jacko

From what I've just been told up here, it was very simply a case of the customer asking for a price reduction at the eleventh hour and fifty-nine minutes; which BAES couldn't or wouldn't agree to. A deferment of the UAE decision was sought into the New Year, which has been declined. A regrettable state of affairs IMHO, leaving the workforce bewildered - especially given the repeated gung-ho messages from management, as recently as three or four days ago. UK Government's help apparently fell short of any financial interest.

[Jimlad1]

"MBZ's reported pique at Cameron's fleeting, flitting appearance at the Dubai air show, and you would perhaps not be surprised at today's result."

Having been at the show at the time (Jacko if you were at Dubai Air show then I think we may have met without realising it if you are who I think you are!) then I'd say that the Emiratis pique over that is probably unrealistic.
they got the PM, SofS, Min(DEST), CDS, CAS and a host of other seniors and the entire red arrows. If that isn't a commitment by HMG in their eyes, then a reasonable question would be 'what is', particularly when bearing in mind how weak other nations commitments were at the time.

The problem I think the UAE will have is that the more it pulls out of deals (2nd time in 3 years), the more difficult it will be for them to convince manufacturers and countries to consider their engagement there. If they want an all embracing package of defence provision, wider co-operation and so on, then their options are quickly going to reduce. The further east you look the less the package is all embracing and more about making a quick buck. Given the cost of a bid these days, I wonder if UAE is quickly making a name for itself as somewhere where it is more hassle than its worth to try and do business.

[Speedywheels]

Cuefaye - are you suggesting that UAE might come back to Eurofighter after failing to call BAE System's bluff?

Jacko - from what I heard BAE S had come up with a cunning plan that also involved trying to 'steal' the Indian order back from Dassault but I presume the UAE decision has scuppered both opportunities, for now at least

[Lowe Flieger]

Pity. Typhoon's future enhancement could depend on a larger customer base... and its customer base might be enlarged by enhancements.

Does anyone have any idea how Typhoon is priced relative to its competitors? I don't think I have ever seen an unambiguous unit price for Typhoon, certainly not in the same way as the Super Hornet is often quoted in the $55 - $60m bracket (I am aware that unit price is often obscured by the support packages included in the deal). I'm guessing it must be expensive relative to other platforms that are already more developed in the strike role?

LF

[moggiee]

From what I've just been told up here, it was very simply a case of the customer asking for a price reduction at the eleventh hour and fifty-nine minutes; which BAES couldn't or wouldn't agree to.
That doesn't surprise me. There may be a lot of money in this country but there is also a marked reluctance to spend it, even when the deal being offered is a good one. Very often quality suffers as a result - and whilst I could tell a few stories, I think I will have to keep my lips sealed this time.

[ShotOne]

Low flyer, I haven't seen a price tag, as such, either but the published value of the deal was said to total £6billion for sixty aircraft which presumably would have incorporated spares and training.

I suspect the merits of the aircraft were not the overriding factors in their decision. They want, in effect, to purchase future political/military support. The fact we didn't win isn't a disaster; had we committed ourselves potentially to involvement in some future ME conflict those 5000 BAe jobs could have come at a high price!

[orca]

Jim lad,

I think you could look at it from the other end of the scope. The UAE has shown that they aren't mugs willing to pay over the odds so that foreign suppliers can fund development of their own systems.

Jacko,

I think you are right, but there's a subtle difference between agreeing a spec and the supplier actually being able to deliver it.

Various,

Yes you are correct, it ain't all about the aeroplane. If the UAE wanted to defend a small nation from the air it would acquire double digit SAMs. To be a player it wants an expeditionary jet with a deep strike and tactical air to surface capability for counter armour and some littoral work. Those things may well be in the pipeline (or at least the sales brochure) for Typhoon, but nothing more and it has a reputation for not delivering.

One imagines that anyone who read Mragaret Hodge's report of May 11 would take quite some convincing.

But as we all agree - it ain't necessarily about the aeroplane.

[t43562]

Surely if the Typhoon was unsuitable they wouldn't have wasted 5 seconds considering it?

[cuefaye]

Speedy


No, I wasn't suggesting that but neither would I discount it. Along with two others, I started off the whole UAE (Abu Dhabi) Typhoon campaign way back in 1996. Now, almost 18 years later, I'm on the very outer fringe of knowledge. All that I'm certain of is that not a lot has changed over time - in either camp!

[Speedywheels]

Fair enough. I have a meeting scheduled at Warton in early Jan, the subject originally was to discuss some equipment differences for UAE. My meeting is still on so it will be interesting to hear what BAE S have to say.

[peter we]

The main reason they have backed off for now is there is no need after peace with Iran.

According to a UAE source close to the negotiations, the interim deal with Iran along with the direct diplomatic engagements the UAE has conducted have relaxed tensions between the gulf neighbors and contributed to the deal’s breakdown.

“At this point in time there is no need to acquire the weapons as our diplomatic efforts have succeeded,” the source said.

One industry source said the two sides had been unable to agree on price or close the gap on other aspects of the negotiations, including the industrial collaboration package.

UAE Backs out of Typhoon Discussions | Defense News | defensenews.com (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131219/DEFREG04/312190025/UAE-Backs-out-Typhoon-Discussions)

[Lowe Flieger]

PW wrote:The main reason they have backed off for now is there is no need after peace with Iran.Maybe they really want F35 and believe the urgency has diminished so are prepared to risk waiting for it. Relations with Iran may continue to improve... or they may not. I'm sure they can't think the threat has gone away entirely.

[racedo]

The fact we didn't win isn't a disaster; had we committed ourselves potentially to involvement in some future ME conflict those 5000 BAe jobs could have come at a high price!

Difficult to disagree with this because if the price of getting this order means UK has to get involved in a war for no reason then a single body being repatriated to Brixe Norton would show the price as being too high.