Brazil goes for Gripen NG

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Hi,

It seems Brazil choosed the Gripen NG for its FX2 contest (36 fighters).

Reuters: UPDATE 2-Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/18/brazil-jets-idUSL2N0JX17W20131218)

FAB: https://twitter.com/portalfab/status/413402387651756032/photo/1

"the most affordable option", I get that.
"the best conditions for technology transfer", I'm more surprised as I were under the impression that french manufacturer Dassault advertised "total" technology transfer (and no US control, as is probable with the SAAB aircraft due to its engine of american origin).

Anyways, that's it. Kudos to SAAB. :D

[racedo]

Seems Brazil making some payback.

[kbrockman]

Maybe they don't see a need for a much more expensive twin engined fighter (RAFALE/F18) to replace a single engined LWF.

Looking at what the GRIPEN NG is going to turn out to be, light, cheap, very modern engine, sensorfusion+HMCS, extended range, latest GEN gimball mounted wide field-AESA, modern software set-up, extensive link capabilities, many weapon choices, and excellent defensive systems, it might be hard to defend a much more expensive fighter without better capabilities, and only a limited amount of extra capacity.

Add the proven very good short field/improvised field capacities, the very advanced maintainability(1 tech+ 2non tech support) and the promise of developing a carrier version without too much extra costs, this might well be the best choice for Brazil for the next 25-30 years.

Also there is a possibility to change the GE414 with the EJ200 motor (up to 23000 or 26000lbs of thrust) if the US bar the use of the GE engine (which will be very unlikely since they offered the SH in the first place).

[West Coast]

Can't be discounted, but why did the process take so long them? If the differences were that stark, and that was the criteria, seems an easy choice. From what I've read, the military were leaning towards Boeing.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Political machinations aside, I've never really understood just why more customers haven't purchased SAAB's offerings. Cost, reliability, capability seem to be in the ball park.

[BEagle]

Given the alleged NSA spying issue, perhaps Embraer will now re-assess its co-operation with ol' Bubba Boeing on the KC-390 military tanker transport?

Sweden has a clear need to replace its ageing C-130s - and the KC-390 would fit their requirements ideally. There might also be some cost offsets, given selection of the excellent Gripen NG for FX-2.

[Heathrow Harry]

Brazil is also trying to develope an SSN - so any savings on airpower will be useful

[cattletruck]

Reuters: UPDATE 2-Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid | Reuters (http://apicdn.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F530214-brazil-goes-gripen-ng.html&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2F2013%2F12%2F18% 2Fbrazil-jets-idUSL2N0JX17W20131218&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D16 68878)

There is a good chance the NSA were using a Swedish owned product to spy on their telco systems. It's a funny world.

[Arclite01]

Hmmm

I often wonder why the UK didn't buy Gripen to use for a home based interception role - releasing Typhoon for the expeditionary work we seem to get embroiled in........ Gripen seems more than adequate for the task of interception of traffic from the North, numbers of available airframes to carry AAM probably more important than super avionics and systems to engage multiple BVR targets at the moment..............

WRT to the KC-390 according to Wiki they are $50M each whereas C-130J is $60M each - if I were the Swedes I know where I would be spending my money....................

A400M is $100M each approx so probably out of the equation for Sweden.........

Arc

[LowObservable]

To some extent, the elimination of the Super H due to the Snowden disclosures may have precipitated the timing, if the Rafale was already out due to the price tag.

I think that the "great little fighter" meme on the JAS 39E may have to be re-evaluated, and that from now on anyone selling Super H, Rafale or Typhoon (all of which have now lost to the Gripen) will have to explain what their much bigger and more expensive jets do for the customer. There are advantages (eg Raf and Typhoon can realistically carry six AAMs and a load of A-G weapons), but are they worth the money?

[Courtney Mil]

It will be a great jet for them. Good coverage too...

http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads//2010/07/alcance-gripenNG.jpg

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

All relative to the threat - what can the Chileans, the Argies and the Bolivians afford to put against them?
The more important factor in the future will be running costs, for all air forces, and the NG costs, relatively, peanuts.

[Marcantilan]

Oh well, we have the mighty Mirage III and, most probably, Kfir C.10 from next year.

Besides that, Argentina and Brazil are in really good terms.

Regards!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

No slight intended on current Argentine - Brazilian relations.
Threat = Intent + Capability, and Intent is a lot easier to change.

[GeeRam]

Political machinations aside, I've never really understood just why more customers haven't purchased SAAB's offerings. Cost, reliability, capability seem to be in the ball park.

Given that Norway, Denmark, Holland and Belgium are all unlikely to get involved in any serious expeditionary ops, I have no idea why on earth they think they need the F-35 and with it's costs, the resultant small number of airframes that make such small numbers questionable to sustain......... whereas a Gripen buy would seem to make much more sense for those countries :confused:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Serious expeditionary ops against whom?
Given the likely requirement for exped ops against 98% of the nations of the world require bombing terrorists riding camels or technicals, with zero air-air threat, a beefed up Strikemaster would do (though a Hunter would be nice).
The only credible countries that NATO members might need the F35 to defend against are Russia and China, maybe India. No-one else is in the air war game these days.

[Arclite01]

Fox3WMB

My point exactly.

Higher numbers of lower tech platforms rather than Lower numbers of higher tech ones.

And funding for MPA...........

Arc

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

agreed on MPA - there's lots more nations buying sneaky little subs - easiest thing in the world to bugger up world trade with them.

[thowman]

And of course approximately 36% of the Gripen is of UK manufacture, so it's good news for the UK as well.

This is, of course, one reason why the Grippen will never see service for a Brazil's southerly neighbour, as the UK government can veto sales to third parties. They'll have to make do with 2nd hand Mirage F1s for now.

[Lonewolf_50]

Yep. Fox3 nailed it in one.

[TEEEJ]

Brazil's decision to procure the Saab JAS 39 Gripen E to satisfy its F-X2 fighter replacement programme has breathed new life into the company's Sea Gripen concept, a source told IHS Jane's on 19 December.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the source said that the deal for 36 aircraft for the Brazilian Air Force "opens up a whole new realm of possibilities" for the Sea Gripen, with the Navy having a notional requirement for 24 aircraft to operate from its Sao Paulo aircraft carrier.

Brazilian F-X2 deal gives fresh impetus to Saab's Sea Gripen concept - IHS Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/31778/brazilian-f-x2-deal-gives-fresh-impetus-to-saab-s-sea-gripen-concept)

[tartare]

So how do these 4.5 Gen jets all actually compare?
As a non-expert, it is hard to make a judgment - they all seem quite similar.
Sort of like the way modern cars all look roughly the same.
F-16, Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen.
I suspect it's a subject of great debate amongst all of you.
But can anyone who really knows provide a 25 word or less summary?
F-16 - very capable and successful, but expensive. Nations often heavily pressured to buy by Uncle Sam.
Eurofighter - seems to be highly manouverable and well powered, but expensive, late and only now just due to get AESA etc?
Rafale - the French answer to Eurofighter, and no foreign sales yet.
Gripen - smaller, cheaper and relatively up to date.
Am I right?

[racedo]

Higher numbers of lower tech platforms rather than Lower numbers of higher tech ones.


Unfortunately the decision makers want the higher tech ones.............vanity projects foisted on them by salesmen.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Rafale - the French answer to Eurofighter, and no foreign sales yet.

Far be it for me to widdle on anyones fireworks but;

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/530264-uae-pulls-out-eurofighter-deal.html

[GreenKnight121]

Can't be discounted, but why did the process take so long them? If the differences were that stark, and that was the criteria, seems an easy choice. From what I've read, the military were leaning towards Boeing.

And the previous two Presidents were vocal about the "special relationship between France and Brazil", and repeatedly said they favored Rafale.

In the end Brazil decided that being fiscally-responsible trumped political considerations - must have not been enough bribes offered below the President/General level.

Since Brazil is replacing 12 Mirage 200 and 57 F-5EM/FMs (also called F-5BR), Gripen is more than sufficient... and there will almost assuredly be at least one more batch bought before the currently-planned 2030 out-of-service date for both the F-5s and the AMX (60).

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/the-americas/2023/08/23/brazil-to-double-air-fleet-as-part-of-106-billion-investment/

Brazil to double air fleet as part of $10.6 billion investment

SAO PAULO — Brazil plans to invest 52.8 billion reals (U.S. $10.6 billion) for research, development and equipment acquisition efforts for its military, including nearly doubling the size of its Gripen fighter fleet (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/12/16/gripen-officially-joins-brazils-operational-fighter-fleet/) and financing projects by local aircraft manufacturer Embraer for aerial refueling planes, the government announced earlier this month.

The measure, revealed Aug. 11, is part of the government’s Growth Acceleration Program, or PAC, established by President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva. PAC guided programs during his first two terms in office, which lasted from 2002 to 2010, and there are now plans for the overarching initiative to spend 1.7 trillion reals, with defense a key area of focus.….

The PAC does not require the legislature’s approval, as it is a federal investment program funded by government resources, state contributions and the private sector through concessions.….

For the Brazilian Air Force, the plan involves the production and acquisition of 34 F-39 Gripen fighters, which would almost double the country’s fleet. Brazil signed a $5.04 billion contract (https://www.gov.br/defesa/pt-br/centrais-de-conteudo/noticias/ultimas-noticias/nota-oficial-da-forca-aerea-brasileira-aquisicao-de-cacas-gripen-ng) with Swedish manufacturer Saab in 2014 for the purchase of 36 Gripen fighters, for delivery by 2027. In 2022, the signatories added four more fighters to the contract.

Of the 40 now on order, Brazil has received six, with four in operation. The contract stipulated that assembly for 15 F-39E Gripens would take place at Embraer’s factory in Gavião Peixoto in the state of São Paulo.….

“The renewal of the fighter aviation [fleet] is one of the main projects of the Brazilian Air Force covered in the new PAC, and is being realized through the acquisition of the Gripen fighter,” Defense Minister José Mucio Monteiro Filho told Defense News. “It is the most modern combat aircraft in Latin America, enabling Brazil to significantly enhance its air defense capability in line with the country’s continental dimensions.”

The minister also pointed to another program under PAC: the purchase of nine C-390 Millennium planes — initially known as KC-390 — produced by Embraer, along with the development of a refueling version of the model.

“Besides its military role, the KC-390 can be used in national and international humanitarian aid actions, such as supporting public emergencies and firefighting,” he said.

The government website also mentioned plans to convert two Airbus (https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2022/09/22/brazil-buys-new-airbus-helicopters-for-air-force-navy/) A330 aircraft into aeromedical and aerial refueling planes.