Ratio of male to female?

[G_STRING]

There are are a lot more men in private GA than women, but what about the flight instructor path?

Presumably its a similar story, as most flying schools I know about dont have any lady instructors Just curious, are they really a rare breed and if so, why is that?

[RTN11]

Purely from personal experience, just thinking about who I've seen, around 20 males to every female.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There are 2 schools I occasionally help out. One has 3 women and 11 men as instructors, the other has 5 instructors, all men.

[Jude098]

Logical there being less female instructors as only 6% of all UK GA pilots are women.

[taybird]

I know 7 female flight instructors. Of those, two are still instructing regularly, two instruct occasionally and the remainder have moved on to other types of commercial aviation.

[flarepilot]

well, not that many girl pilots either...don't read anything into it...

if you are a girl and want to be an instructor...good luck, try to be good and safe

if you are a girl and want a girl instructor...good luck and I wish you the best


if you are a boy and want a girl instructor, see the above

if you ever see the movie about Pearl Harbor, "TORA TORA TORA" there is a scene in which a biplane is being used to instruct, a woman is the instructor to a boy learning to fly...she looks a bit like ethel mertz

I knew one girl instructor...she refused to land a tomahawk at the speeds listed in the POH...insisted to land about 15 knots faster (no wind)

She also wrote up a plane as having control problems...but the autopilot was engaged.

don't read anything into it...just my personal experience

[AdamFrisch]

According to Women In Aviation it's been around the 6% mark forever for the whole pilot population. I'm assuming similar numbers in the instructor ranks. But the strange thing is this: that number hasn't shifted at all over the last, say, 50-60 years. Meaning, even though we now have arguably a more equal society, this has not reflected in pilot numbers. And what's even more strange - that number is pretty much constant in all countries and on all continents.

Isn't that very strange?

[taybird]

Adam, I think it has to do with interest and aptitude. More women than men are interested in crafting or baking as a hobby, for example. And more men than women are interested in flying. Add to this the single-minded determination required for many people to attain their PPL, which is a trait more commonly expressed in male brains, and you can see how the bias can remain so consistent.
It is true that the barriers previously experienced by women are no longer such a feature, but the barriers that women make themselves are still there.
Just imo, of course. I feel that anyone who wants to fly should be encouraged.

[alnina]

Taybird

You are joking right? Please tell me you are joking? If not maybe you want to substantiate your sweeping generalisations with something remotely like factual evidence, as opposed to anecdotes and archaic stereotyping?

:ugh:

While I quite enjoy baking I am also highly driven and single-minded - pretty sure neither of those are Y chromosome dependent...

[dubbleyew eight]

alnina hormone replacement therapy supposedly works to keep you on a level keel.
oestrogen surges must be a bugger to contend with from the inside. I can tell you they are hell for us on the outside.

[Big Pistons Forever]

http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpgalnina hormone replacement therapy supposedly works to keep you on a level keel.
oestrogen surges must be a bugger to contend with from the inside. I can tell you they are hell for us on the outside.

Words fail me so a picture will have to do:

[dubbleyew eight]

big pistons you've obviously never experienced a hormonally induced tantrum directed at you.
for your sake I hope you never do.

the only problem with women in aviation is that there arent enough of them.

[alnina]

Big pistons forever

Couldnt have said it better myself. :D

dubble

I suppose testosterone has never made a guy ever do anything stupid, or infuriating annoying. :suspect:

You might also want to get your facts straight. Here is the abstract Distribution of positive moods in women with... [J Psychosom Res. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7490695) to a nice little paper that correlates pre-ovulation oestrogen surges to PEAK mood. So if your lady being happy pisses you off, perhaps the issue is not oestrogen but you. Additionally, this surge happens just prior to the middle of a woman's cycle. If you have ever bothered to pay any attention this is generally not PMS time, and in fact tends to be the time when a woman is most...positively inclined toward her partner, if you get my meaning. Again if that is a problem for you, well...

That aside, I suppose we can all be glad that by your logic there are a bunch of level-headed, presumably testosterone-free pilots scooting us all around the skies and not a bunch of hormone-addled women looking to ditch planes into the nearest mountain because they're having a mid-month oestrogen surge. Perhaps if you simply put them all on an appropriate hormonal birth control or monitored their cycles and banned them flying from what, day 11 - 14 that would be good. I'm sure their hubbies would be happy about it anyway.

As for why women aren't becoming pilots, well, here's an idea, ask some women. :ugh:

big pistons you've obviously never experienced a hormonally induced tantrum directed at yo

Typical approach - act like an ass and when she gets made claim her reaction is hormonal and therefore irrational. Having witnessed plenty of testosterone-fuelled male stupidity one could pretty easily flip your hormone argument on its head dubble...

[taybird]

Alnina

Not joking. There is plenty of research in relation to the differences between male and female brains. There is also research showing that these are trends only, and that a female person can have a male type brain and vice versa.

Show me where I have made generalisations that are inaccurate.

I have pointed out that some pursuits tend to be more female or male dominated. That is TRUE. The viewing audience for QVC's Crafts and Hobbies show is predominantly female. And the population of pilots is predominantly make. There's nothing stopping men from crafting and women from flying but the fact remains that there is gender bias. I have also pointed out that there are other traits that TEND to be more strongly expressed in one gender than another. Ie the tendency for male brains to be better at single task focus as opposed to female running multiple streams at the same time. These are tendencies not hard rules!!! And there is plenty of research out there to back this up.

You might want to try being a little less judgemental and reading what is written rather than what you expect to be written.

[alnina]

Taybird:

The viewing audience for QVC's Crafts and Hobbies show is predominantly female. - THAT makes your generalisation true? They are all probably over 50, if not 70!! I dont believe you could extrapolate that to my age bracket, which is where your female career women are at. More to the point, what does baking have to do with why a person may or may not choose to become a pilot? In my home its not a hobby, its a bloody necessity. ;) Sadly I suspect like most young men over early career age, most young women display more interest in drinking and facebook than cooking and quilting.

You are right in what you say about male and female brains being wired differently, I have no issue with that, there is good science to support it. My point was that you stated:

Add to this the single-minded determination required for many people to attain their PPL, which is a trait more commonly expressed in male brains - I have never come across a study that shows men's brains are wired to be more determined or single-minded that women's. Unless you count the ability to sit at a computer console for days on end in order to win some gang/drug/car theft/war game, in which case given the majority of gamers are men, maybe there is evidence to support your statement...

In the end, while I am sure there are some great reasons more women don't pursue flying, being busy in the kitchen or knitting a jumper are highly unlikely to be major contributing factors. Nor is a woman's ability to single-mindedly pursue something to its conclusion. That men's brains tend to be more wired to logical thinking may have been a more valid assessment of why they make good pilots or why more men get through the process of becoming a pilot - but I don't know if the latter is even the case or if its just less women are interested in the first place?

As for dubble - was I just the recipient of a testosterone-fuelled little dummy spit? Whether I enjoy my day or not is not relevant to the topic. Your comment was factually incorrect, sexist and had no relevance to the topic of the thread and I simply pointed that out. Your response was childish, but that's your choice. My day has been great so far though, thanks for asking, I assume from your comments that yours hasn't.

[flarepilot]

maybe its because more men would like to be lindbergh

and more women like earhart

sort of.


really, how many famous or outstanding female pilots are there?

and I can name a dozen male pilots that are outstanding.


role models?


I also know that some airlines have gone out of the way to recruit and train and re train female pilots.

[alnina]

You may be right - early pioneers of flying were male, as was the norm in most vocations really. I was fascinated by Earhart as a kid, and one of my daughters is also, but never made either of us want to be pilots.

If you want more female pilots you need to get in a secondary school level and maybe earlier and capture their interest. If not there then at uni. The sciences, especially physical and mathematical are being increasingly promoted to young girls - perhaps in the next 10-15 years the gender disparity will lessen as they realise careers require aptitude in these areas are accessible to them.

I'm not sure if it is what you meant, but I think recruitment should be based on merit alone, not positive discimination. Plenty of women are interested in working as cabin crew - maybe this question posed to women working in other roles in the industry would give some reasonable insight into why they don't go for piloting? I am sure some feel it would be too difficult, or not suited to their skill set, but I would guarantee there are reasons other than those that stop women pursuing the career. Trying to figure exactly why it doesn't interest me...

[Flyingmac]

Throughout history there have been many famous female test pilots, Formula 1 drivers, Classical composers, surgeons, inventors, mountaineers, Polar explorers, divers, painters, aircraft designers, bridge builders et cetera.
My wife/co-pilot just said so. I know better than to argue.:)

[m.Berger]

Dismissing Alnina's unbecomingly hysterical ranting, flying does pretty well as an adventure sport for women.
Fewer than 6% of racing drivers or racing motorcyclists are women, for example.
The assertion that 6% is the same ratio now as then does not disprove the more equal society theory, in fact it reinforces the point that the women who wanted to fly managed to do so, (Earhart, Scott, Johnson, Barnes etc.)
There is another number to consider. Only one in three thousand people (UK) trains to be a pilot so a very small percentage of men fly anyway.
Women who want to fly will. That works out at about 6% of people who want to fly. It always did so it is only a problem to those who would like to invent one.

[PURPLE PITOT]

The sky is blue, not pink. It's called a cockpit, not a box office.

Simples!:ok:

[xrayalpha]

Difficult to ask women why they don't become pilots, because your data set will be swamped with the same replies that you would get if you asked men! Simply because, as a percentage of the general population, very very few men become pilots.

One interesting area might be private schools with their Combined Cadet Forces.

Unlike the Air Training Corps, which is purely voluntary and seen by many as a "good thing" if wanting to join the RAF in any capacity - even as a "knitting" instructor, or whatever gender-favoured role you wish to identify - the CCF is slightly more compulsory and people have to make a choice between Army, Navy and RAF.

Since, - in my old school, which is now co-educational - there are quite a few female teenagers who have chosen the RAF section, it might be useful to use them as a data set and ask some of these questions.

And perhaps track them down 10 years later and find out if/why they have continued/not continued their interest in aviation.

Would make a good research project for someone?

[rateone]

"the CCF is slightly more compulsory and people have to make a choice between Army, Navy and RAF".


Sorry XrayAlpha, you can't have "slightly more compulsory", it's either compulsory or it's not. In the case of the CCF (like the armed forces), it's not and hasn't been for a long time.

[Pace]

Look at the animal world for your answers? We really have not evolved that much although we like to think we have.
In the second world war there were some fantastic female pilots who moved aircraft around and women can be far more ruthless and decisive and committed than males
But it is more likely to be a Macho thing more than an ability thing! And that is derogatory to men as women are more committed to a chosen path than us testosterone driven males and make better employees than men who are more into ego things and trying to prove our gene banks are better than others:E
you only have to see the willy waving antics in these forums :E
Problem is having persuaded a female that our gene banks are top notch when they find the truth we get dumped :{ ;)
Big Boys toys springs to mind we never grow up :E

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've flown with a number of women instructors, can't say I noticed that they were overall better or worse than men in the same role. I can recall one who was pretty damned mediocre - but can remember men like that too, and can remember one who was one of the best instructors I've ever flown with - but I've flown with some superb male instructors as well.

What I do not get however, why when I go to meetings of the aviation "great and good", they are almost entirely male. I've known a handful of women who have reached absolute "top job" level in aviation: Jenny Body, Ann Welch, and Ann Downing being the most obvious. But they are basically out there on their own amongst a massively greater male population.


I was contemplating this a couple of days ago when I was looking at Aeronautical Journal (http://aerosociety.com/news/publications/aero-journal), which is the UK's foremost research journal in general aeronautics. It has an editorial board of 35 - all eminent people in aeronautical research. One of whom is a woman - and she's American. (http://www.ae.gatech.edu/community/staff/bio/smith-m)


So basically, there aren't many women in aviation, and the more senior the role, the less there are proportionally. Yet those who are there, are clearly as good as the men, and whilst as a man perhaps I'm less likely to see it, I can't detect any discrimination particularly going on.

So why is it? It certainly seems wrong to me, as surely if women are capable of being as good at something as men (and all evidence I've seen says they are), the professional side of aviation is less well off for being so unbalanced.

G

[Heston]

THAT makes your generalisation true? They are all probably over 50, if not 70!! I dont believe you could extrapolate that to my age bracket


For someone complaining about gender stereotyping I'd say that that ageist comment is a case of the pot calling the kettle black...

[Pace]

G

There are without doubt differences.Why do women love shopping while most men hate shopping.
Still Inbred in us is that men go hunting and women are homemakers and rear the kids.
I am afraid that as much as the equality of sexes come to mind that is still the majority fact!
Flying is still seen as the butch macho thing still inhabited on the whole by the Male.

if you want to develop the discussion further why not take the race differentials into the equation! Why are pilots still a vast majority of white Caucasians with the least Black?

Pace

[AdamFrisch]

The race thing is purely socio-economical, I think. I don't think there's any difference between black, asian or white males/women in interest. Only the means and the social structure differ.

[Pace]

Adam

One of my very best friends who is dark skinned was trying to make it as a pilot and would not agree with you! Are you saying that white middle/upper income people become pilots?

I know plenty of poor income/background white Caucasians who have still made it to being commercial pilots!

The best athletes still tend to be dark skinned is that a social economic thing too?

Pace

[Armchairflyer]

Regarding the idea of women pilots being so few because women are by and large less interested in aviation, less determined, less apt at maths, tech stuff and spatial thinking etc., wouldn't this apply to ATCOs to the same extent? However, AFAIK the proportion of women in this (certainly aviation-related, demanding, and highly qualified) job is considerably higher. My conjecture is that the small proportion of female pilots is mostly simply a matter of (lack of) widespread interest for the particular activity of steering an airplane.

[The_Pink_Panther]

I’m with BPF on the double facepalm. A simple gender question was asked, and I thought, this would be a good opportunity for all the ladies why fly/want to fly, to speak up, and then I read these:

“…single-minded determination required for many people to attain their PPL, which is a trait more commonly expressed in male brains”

“The sky is blue, not pink”

Yep, :ugh: that’s why the ladies don’t post here. Well done chaps - good inclusive environment of professional flyers you've got here.

[ShyTorque]

My wife and daughter have both said that they have no interest in flying the aircraft themselves because they're both quite happy for me to sit in the front and do it - and carry their bags after landing.

They are both better at doing other stuff than I and I'm happy to let them do that, too.

I have no problem allowing anyone to do as they wish with regard to task sharing.

[xrayalpha]

RateOne,

While I agree with you that compulsory (and unique) can only be that and nothing else, I was trying for a bit of shorthand to reflect, from Wikipedia:

"A few other schools make CCF attendance voluntary (like Stamford School, with the largest voluntary CCF contingent in the UK[citation needed]), which tends to reduce numbers compared to compulsory contingents, but potentially results in a more uniformly dedicated membership that responds well to training.

"Some of the voluntary CCF schools also run the other options such as community service"

My old school was compulsory, but is now voluntary, I believe. But it also sounds from Wikipedia - I agree not always reliable, but I don't have the time to write to the c200 schools in the RAF CCF to confirm - that there are still some schools with compulsion involved.

Even if stated as "voluntary", I suspect there may still be an element of peer pressure (or complying with the school "ethos") to join the CCF.

In my old school, when there was compulsion, you ened up in the Army section unless you volunteered for the Navy or RAF.

I suspect that these days the RAF types are still very keen.

So my basic idea:

We have a bunch of females who form a higher than usual percentage in aviation terms. Why not ask them what attracted them to aviation, why not track them, and why not find out what made them lose interest.

[fernytickles]

Dismissing Alnina's unbecomingly hysterical ranting

"Unbecomingly"? "hysterical"? :rolleyes:

"Clear, concise & pretty well thought out points" is more how I would describe her posts.

What on earth has being becoming or unbecoming got to do with one's posts on here?

Back to the OP, , are they really a rare breed and if so, why is that?

Quality, not quantity :p

[RTN11]

I have never come across a study that shows men's brains are wired to be more determined or single-minded that women's.

How about this one?

BBC News - Men and women's brains are 'wired differently' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25198063)

Lets face it, men and women are completely different, for evolutionary reasons we do definitely think in different ways, and the fact is that more men than women want to be pilots.

[Heston]

From the report on that study:


"Male brains appeared to be wired front to back"


Says it all really - no wonder I'm confused most of the time, my brain is wired up wrong.

[Pace]

Definately wired different !

We guys always wear the trousers and call the shots ;-----)
Just make sure if you convince one you really do have superman genes
If you get a good one she will feel sorry for you and look after you when she finds the genes are not quite Superman as you made out ; )
Get a bad one and you are screwed and not in the way you want to be ; )

Pace

[MrSnuggles]

Quoting taybird I believe:

the tendency for male brains to be better at single task focus as opposed to female running multiple streams at the same time

This is the reason why it, according to this theory, would be a great thing to have more female pilots. When **** hits the fan you really need to multitask, mind you.

In fact, focusing on one detail really hard has contributed to quite a few accidents in the past and probably will continue to do so.

Reading this thread has given me some insights why women might be more inclined to work as cabin crew - some of the comments here are very disturbing and I do believe that if a woman wanting to pursue a flying career encounters this attitude on a regular basis she will probably choose something less intimidating. Like being cabin crew. She still gets to fly but avoids the comments that are apparent in this thread. I would feel insulted if some of these things were directed at me, that says it all I believe.

[Desert185]

There is attitude and aptitude. If my wife were a guy, she would be one of the guys. Good attitude. Aptitude for the mechanics of flying? No.

I have experienced pilots of both sexes who have both attitude and aptitude of varying degrees. Those (male or female) who have both in spades are valued and admired by their peers.

I don't care what flavor or color you are, as long as you fit in and do the job. Not everyone can or should be a pilot...male or female. No one should get a pass or receive criticism because of their flavor or color. That's real equality.

[rateone]

"My old school was compulsory, but is now voluntary, I believe. But it also sounds from Wikipedia - I agree not always reliable, but I don't have the time to write to the c200 schools in the RAF CCF to confirm - that there are still some schools with compulsion involved"


XrayAlpha, I believe you may be right in that some schools retain compulsory CCF. I suspect that compulsion is not the best way to retention. I was in the CCF 35 years ago and it wasn't compulsory at my school even then. We were in the RAF Section for the flying. Oh, and the guns, but mostly the flying.


By the way I liked your house on Grand Designs http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[JDA2012]

We had a CCF - it was compulsory to either join that or to do cross-country! I went with the running about with guns options, since a run was in order either way. It was a CCF in name only though; really an ACF as there was only an army section. Had there been an RAF section, I would have joined that and probably had the impetus to join the RAF proper a few years later.

Equality, incidentally, is not commenting on this at all. If we are all truly equal, and everyone can accept this and act accordingly (which may be the sticking point!) then it matters not how many women there are in any sector as they are, of course, the same as the men...

[Jan Olieslagers]

I my observation, women are especially absent from recreational flying. At my club, a few women will come with their husband, and that's it. O yes, always a couple of girls among the glider students, one in ten or one in twenty perhaps. But not a single plane with a woman as owner/captain.

OTOH it seems to me there are rather more women in professional aviation; actually I'd not be surprised if the percentage of females was greater among professional pilots - and traffic controllers - than among truck or train drivers.

I sometimes have Brussels tower on a handheld, and am always (positively!) surprised to hear so many woman voices. As far as R/T can tell, they seem to think and feel and fly just like all pilots. No surprise, actually.

[Desert185]

Emily Warner--The First Female Pilot Member of the Air Line Pilots Association (http://cf.alpa.org/internet/alp/2000/jun00p29.htm)

[AdamFrisch]

I trained with at least 2 different female instructor here in the US for my PPL and the MEL. They were great pilots. Suited my style of learning a lot better, the teaching style was calmer and less gung ho. One of them I'm actually doing my IR with now as well.

I wish there were more of them and like Jan mentioned, I especially don't see them as owners/recreational pilots much. At the fly-ins you're hard pressed to find a single lady owner/pilot.

[flarepilot]

look...if a girl wants to be a pilot, fine...

but thinking about math and physics is not about being a pilot

a pilot is a pilot

you can probably get an idea about this by following:

offer any gender person a book, either "The Spirit of St.louis" or " The Barefoot Contessa cooks Pasta".

'nuff said

[fernytickles]

flarepilot, boy,

I found North To The Orient by Anne Morrow Lindbergh much more interesting as it great insight to her husband's meticulous attention to tiny detail.

As for recipe books? Why bother, there's a gazillion & one recipes online these days, for those of us who are able to navigate the WWW as well as the skies ;)

[flarepilot]

I read "north to the orient" too. I would call it less than half a book compared to the "SPIRIT".

"Spirit of St. Louis" shows his attention to detail well too.

He also speaks of the decision to go alone...one boy is one boy, two boys is half a boy and three boys is no boy at all, or something like it.

He speaks of reserves for failure and for success too.

though in "NORTH" I did enjoy the idea that the royal navy gave his plane an oil change!

[Viola]

Why don't many women become pilots? In my experience of nearly 20 years of flying not many women fly because --

Sometimes I'm the only woman on the airfield, and although most men are pleasant, such a male atmosphere could still put some women off. A few men are not pleasant and meeting just one is really off-putting, especially if there's no other women around.

Some of the comments on here would put any woman off! I hope no prospective women pilots are reading this thread.

Cost - women still earn in general less than men.

Family - child-care still tends to be mostly the women's job in SOME families. Plus some women worry about having an accident and leaving their children. Most of the women I know who fly regularly don't have small children.

Priorities - in my experience most women would rather spend such a large amount of money on their home or families or whatever. Women friends of mine are interested and often discuss flying with me, but say they'd rather spend that amount of money on something else.

Time - shopping, cleaning, childcare, checking up on Granny, etc, mostly done by women in SOME families so they have less free time at weekends. (Is society critical of women who don't put their families first?) Many women, though not all, spend more time keeping in touch with friends/family so they have less time available to fly.

I have heard of just a few (thankfully) men who put their wives off flying as they can't afford for 2 people to fly in the family or they want time away (instead of football or the garden shed).


It doesn't cross a lot of women's minds that they CAN fly. As has been said, most 'role models' and senior people in flying are men. I've loved aircraft all my life, but it was years before I thought of learning to fly.

Most men I know who own their aircraft like 'tinkering' with machinery. I know some women who do, but not many. (Personally I find it cold and I get covered in oil!)


I don't mean that these affect ALL women, but if these nudge women away from flying the cumulative effect will be to cut the numbers of women.

I don't think a liking for Maths, etc, is particularly relevant as there isn't a lot in private flying. As has been mentioned a lot of the supposedly 'male' mind sets apply just as much to ATC, and there are many women working there. Determination is important, but I know just as many determined women as determined men. Hormones? Both men and women are affected by hormones - so what?

[taybird]

Hahaha you guys make me laugh...

I AM a woman pilot.

I couldn't care less what gender, colour, age, whatever, a fellow pilot is. If they're good, they're good, if they're not, they're not.

By single-minded determination I mean the fact that for many years all I thought about and worked towards was flying. I didn't have the privilege of money to ease my path. I've given up a LOT to do what I do, and I don't regret it one bit. Several male colleagues have done exactly the same. I know a few women who have done the same too, but I don't know any men who have dropped out because their priorities changed, while I do know several women who did.

It is my opinion that the singleminded drive to do this is more common amongst men than it is women. I've seen several female students give up because they prefer to go shopping, or their confidence is not so high, or they can't be bothered, or they go off to have a baby and don't come back. This sounds awfully stereotyped, but it's what i have seen. Yes I've seen this in men too, but far less - in their case it's usually serious financial and they keep in touch by flying models, or flight sim, or listening to ATC...

This isn't sweeping generalisation, it's local observation.

I agree with some of what Viola has said, but would comment
Men - agreed very rare occasions the local lech can be unpleasant, although you can find those everywhere not just airfields.
Cost - when I first started to learn to fly, my income was zero. I cleaned aeroplanes and got paid in flying time. This an example of determination; barriers are reduced with enough determination.
Family - good point. I don't have children by choice. But there are successful commercial pilots with kids.
Priorities - agreed, again determination would set flying as the highest priority, always.
Time - fits in with priorities. If it's a priority, you make time.

I truly believe that most barriers for women in aviation are, these days, made by the women themselves. But that's just my personal opinion.

I really couldn't give a toss about some of the rants on here. If you fly, great. If you're good at it, and are safe, and enjoy it, fantastic. I don't care what kind of underwear you wear.

[Desert185]

Taybird:

Good analysis. Good attitude.

[Genghis the Engineer]

G

There are without doubt differences.Why do women love shopping while most men hate shopping.
Still Inbred in us is that men go hunting and women are homemakers and rear the kids.
I am afraid that as much as the equality of sexes come to mind that is still the majority fact!
Flying is still seen as the butch macho thing still inhabited on the whole by the Male.

if you want to develop the discussion further why not take the race differentials into the equation! Why are pilots still a vast majority of white Caucasians with the least Black?

Pace

Well I quite enjoy shopping, and the biggest regret in my life is not having children and would have been delighted, had I been able, to give up work and raise a family. On the other hand my two main passions in life are very stereotypical male interests of aviation and martial arts. So no idea where that leaves me.

Race is, I'd venture, a different issue - not an invalid one, just perhaps needs its own thread. Plus I've come across far more non-caucasian engineers, pilots, and academics than women pilots, engineers, and science/engineering academics. Still probably less than the background population, but far less imbalanced.

G

[dubbleyew eight]

the most impressive pilot I have ever seen, and I'm serious about this, was an air cadet flying a blanic glider at one of the western australian air cadet camps at cunderdin.
on a pretty blustery day the blanic was flown through the circuit as though it was on rails. the conditions were quite gusty. on short finals the glider didnt wobble an ounce. the flare was just right and despite the gusting conditions the glider touched down in an absolute greaser of a landing.
the glider rolled out wings level and rolled to a park on the side of the runway.
an absolutely flawless perfection of technique.

when the cabin popped open out hopped a 5ft nothing little red headed girl with curls streaming away in the wind.

there you go. the most impressive display of flying skill I've ever seen was a girl who had just solo'd a blanic glider. ....a little girl.

[Heston]

Ageism, sexism, and now hair colour! I've got red hair (well it was once) - are you implying that people with red hair make poor pilots? I think we should be told! :)

[Pace]

G

I am not in the slightest bit racist, sexist or against gay people.
I find it strange why these three subjects are no go and taboo to discuss nowadays!

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

G

I am not in the slightest bit racist, sexist or against gay people.
I find it strange why these three subjects are no go and taboo to discuss nowadays!

Pace

Didn't suggest you were, nor that they can't be discussed. Just that sexism, and racism (or more accurately, sex discrimination, versus racial discrimination / bias) aren't the same thing.

G

[Whirlybird]

During the many years I worked as a helicopter instructor - and I'm female, by the way - I took a lot of guys up for trial lessons, many of whom had been bought the flight as a present by a wife, girlfriend, sister, or similar. Usually, especially if I'd done my job well, the new student finished the flight on a high, having loved every moment of it and wanting to do more.

Whenever I could I asked his significant female, "Wouldn't you like to have a go?" And I received the same answer, over and over again, so often that I ceased to be surprised - "Oh no, I couldn't". Not "I don't want to, "I can't afford it", or "I'm not interested", but "I couldn't".

Often I pointed out that I'm a fairly average woman and I'd learned to fly, that I was sure they could, that it wasn't as hard as it looked and just took practice, etc etc etc. Sometimes she would then manufacture an excuse such as lack of technical ability or coordination, or something similar. But more often than not it was a repeated shake of the head, and a totally convinced, "No, I couldn't do it".

Why? You tell me. No-one on here has in 3 pages, or previously in many years of my asking. All I can think is that our society and our education system is still telling men that they can do whatever they put their minds to, but telling women there are some things they can't do. It seems to have missed me and some of the other women pilots here, and indeed many others or we wouldn't have ANY female pilots. But too many women have believed this myth. It's sad. Maybe some day it'll change....

[Armchairflyer]

Well, after all, they are right in saying that "they couldn't do it". Of course, the significant males would be just as correct in saying so ("do" as opposed to "learn" in both cases), but they don't pronounce it and/or don't care as much. This tendency of men being overconfident compared to women's more realistic view of their (actually totally comparable) skills is quite well substantiated in pertinent research AFAIK. But frankly, I don't think that the contemporary society and/or education system in Western countries tells girls that "they just cannot do it". (And personally, while I acknowledge that this realism may come with disadvantages, I vastly prefer it to emphasizing self-confidence over the gradual and often humbling acquisition of skills and experience, regardless of gender.)

[cumulusrider]

I have just been looking at the National ladder gliding competition. Six of the top 100 pilots are females. However there are only six more females in the next 300 competitors.
I am not sure what if any conclusions can be drawn from this.

[Desert185]

When I was with the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) I gave a Young Eagle ride to a very shy, little girl. She was a few weeks short of the minimum age, so I told her that would be our secret. She apparently enjoyed the ride.

With her mother standing next her while I gave her the certificate, I asked her why she couldn't be a pilot. She shook her head and didn't know. I told there was no reason she couldn't be a pilot if she really wanted to be one. Her trashy, mouth-breathing mother scoffed at that comment.

Having good parents isn't the entire formula for success, but it sure helps. Felt sorry for the little girl, as the odds are stacked against her with the parent I met. I had the same feelings about her that I would have towards an abused little puppy. Wanted to take her home and work on her self-esteem, but that wasn't going to happen. Pity.

[Whirlybird]

Another anecdote...

I used to live next door to a young girl who was a high flyer in the ATC...soloed in a glider with minimal hours, became one of their instructors soon afterwards etc etc. I was giving her a lift somewhere; she was around 16 or 17 at the time. Thinking she'd know more about young people and aviation than I did, I asked her why there were so few girls in the ATC. Her response..."It's a boy thing to do, innit?". That was all. I tried to ask why it was "a boy thing" but she shrugged, apparently thinking the answer was obvious.

She certainly hadn't got this from her parents, who were immensely proud of her. Nor from the ATC, who AFAIK predicted a great future for her. It must have been...school, friends, the media, society...

Armchairflyer, I know it's only one anecdote, but do you still think it's not true that the contemporary society and/or education system in Western countries tells girls that "they just cannot do it".?

Incidentally, and more personally, a good friend and ATC colleague of the lass I'm mentioning used to be on here. I can't remember his PPRuNe handle, and don't want to 'out' him, but...if you're still here, and not off on the airline forums, maybe you could tell me how she's getting on. I've kind of lost touch since I moved house.

[Pace]

Simple answer go back to the animal world for your answers! We have progressed very little £millions spent in cosmetics, hair styles, clothes! wetting themselves :mad: and going ga ga over boy groups.

Guys testosterone driven crashing cars and showing off till the insurance companies will not insure them all vying in the pecking order to attract the females.

I am a pilot with my top gun shades and leather jacket? :ugh: a very male status thing to do?

Nothing much has changed flying is still a boy thing! only difference is as we get older its Big boys and their toys and women become more sensible.

Shame really as cut away the facade of the mating game and the roles that dictates and women make excellent pilots as they do lawyers, accountants and Doctors and they statistically make more reliable employees? its not just conditioning any more than the animal world are conditioned to their roles and behaviour.

Ask yourself why the nursing careers are still predominantly women? and flying is still predominantly men? conditioning or animal instincts and a difference between the sexes?

pace

[Armchairflyer]

(Whirlybird): She certainly hadn't got this from her parents, who were immensely proud of her. Nor from the ATC, who AFAIK predicted a great future for her. It must have been...school, friends, the media, society... Armchairflyer, I know it's only one anecdote, but do you still think it's not true thatthe contemporary society and/or education system in Western countries tells girls that "they just cannot do it".Affirm ;). Besides all considerations regarding the generalizability of anecdotes, "it's a boy thing" does not mean that girls are unable to do as well (or told so), just that there is not the same amount of widespread interest. Parents may admittedly play a role (as in Desert185's story), but actually your anecdote shows IMHO that school, friends, the media or society apparently did not represent any appreciable barriers against that girl's individual interest (backed by parental support).

[Whirlybird]

Pace,

I gather that medical school applicants are predominantly male these days; also law applicants (I think). So some things do change in that respect, which strongly suggests it's more social than biological.

Armchairflyer,

actually your anecdote shows IMHO that school, friends, the media or society apparently did not represent any appreciable barriers against that girl's individual interest

No, but the fact she mentioned it shows that she assumed it represented a barrier for most of her contemporaries, who weren't as unconventional/uncaring/ independent as she was. There have always been a few people who can go against cultural/social norms. If there weren't there would be NO female pilots. But there are never many who can do this. That was the whole point of my post! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Armchairflyer]

Whirlybird,

Maybe I missed something (or your description of the anecdote did), but IMHO the mere assertion "it's a boy thing" does not hint at any assumed barrier erected by society, school, the media etc. At least not more than at a simple lack of intrinsic interest as widespread as among boys. Did not sound to me as if she had answered to your question why so few girls are in the ATC that she knows several who would love to do it but are deterred by friends or teachers sneering at the thought or the negative media image of women in aviation.

Of course one could argue that girls aspire to being pilots/mechanics/firefighters/woodsmen (insert any job/activity which by the number of practitioners is "a boy thing") every bit as much as men, but the barriers erected by school, teachers, the media, society etc. are so subtle yet pervasive that they are simply no longer aware of their actual inclinations nor able to name these barriers, but I admittedly have issues with that approach on several levels (not just regarding gender).

If you have 40 minutes to spare (while curing your headache owing to a male seemingly not understanding your point? :p)
Brainwash (1_7) - The Gender Equality Paradox - YouTube

[Whirlybird]

Armchairflyer, thank you for that. Nothing on TV this evening, and I did have 40 minutes, so I just watched it all. Interesting stuff. Nothing totally proven, but a lot of food for thought. Interesting how neither side really wants to listen to the other....a bit like PPRuNe really.

I don't claim to know why men and women appear to have different interests, and it's made harder by the fact that I'm totally untypical - well, I would be, wouldn't I; I'm a female pilot!

Sorry if my anecdote wasn't as obvious as it seemed to me. I'll read it again and see if it's lost something in the telling or simply wasn't there in the first place....

[Armchairflyer]

Whirlybird, I know, and one who masters those weird machines with wildly spinning airfoils, too. But I think in saying that you are totally untypical, you let society and the media get to you too much ;).

While we are at anecdotal evidence, if I may ask, did you perceive any actual "this is a boy thing" barriers during your career? (Single prejudiced macho morons don't count.)

[Whirlybird]

Armchairflyer, I'm not totally untypical; that was written in a hurry and is wrong. I'm probably only untypical in that I don't seem to pick up on socially accepted norms, the "done thing" etc. This is a personality trait which is probably present in a fairly standard percentage of people....more about that later, in another post...

"It's a boy thing" barriers when I was training? Not barriers as such, simply....surprise. When I said at my helicopter school that I wanted to do a CPL with a view to instructing, everyone seemed dumbfounded, and I don't exaggerate. I thought it was because I'd never mentioned it before, but quite a lot of students decided during training to carry on and go commercial. Then I thought it was my age - I was in my 40s - but that wasn't so uncommon either. It seemed to be because I was female. Then there was the reaction of the general public when I was instructing; most seemed to think I was the tea lady when they got to the helicopter school, pilot's shirt and tie notwithstanding. One trial lesson student even said to me: "This might sound silly, but I didn't realise women became helicopter pilots". I still get told: "You don't look like a helicopter pilot" and when I ask what one looks like, the answer - often unstated as people get embarrassed at that point - is clearly "male, for a start".

The "it's a boy thing" seems to be deeply ingrained in people. Is it biological or social? I assumed it was social, as I couldn't see how such a thing could be biological. Hence I may even have misunderstood the conversation with my 17 year old friend, though knowing the context I don't think so. I certainly didn't explain it well to you. But after watching your fascinating clip, I'm not so sure. However, I don't think they've proved anything yet, and I want to comment on that film, having thought about it. But I think I'll do so in a separate post....

[Whirlybird]

If you're interested in why there are so few women pilots, you could do worse than watch the clip in Armchairflyer's post above. For those who don't have nearly 40 minutes to spare, I'll try to summarise it....

Norwegian researchers claim that inclinations towards certain careers, which are found consistently and worldwide, are due to social factors and early conditioning. Although some people have even found that very young children play with different toys, they claim that this conditioning happens very early, and cite experiments where people treated babies differently depending on whether they were dressed in pink or blue.

However, researchers in the USA and UK have done experiments on babies. One has found that levels of testosterone (in the womb or in babyhood; I can't remember which) affect the toys children want to play with, high levels relating to traditional "boys' toys". The apparent best evidence for the "biological" argument comes from a researcher who looked at one day old babies, and found that girls looked at faces for longer, boys at "things" (I can't remember what exactly they were"). From this they deduce that girls are more interested in people, boys in things, and that this translates to career choices in later life. Another researcher explained how this preference might have evolutionary advantages...."girly" girls making good mothers etc etc.

Armchairflyer, please correct me if any of this seems wrong; I didn't take notes and am summarising. As I said originally, it's interesting and food for thought. BUT....

1) I'd like to see details of how the experiment with one day old babies was done. For it to be valid, the experimenter needs to be ignorant of whether the baby is male or female, or the infant could possibly be reacting to non-verbal cues given off by the experimenter. Was this done?

2) I'm a psychology graduate, and I did a year of developmental psychology, but it was many, many years ago. Things may have changed and new discoveries been made, but as far as I recall, babies of one day old can't recognise faces or know what they are. You would need to postulate an innate attraction to faces in female babies, and...why?

3) Following on from this, I can't quite see how face/thing preferences or toy preferences relate to career choices, where the distinctions we're making in this area are pretty arbitrary. For instance, some people learn to fly because they want to travel, be like birds or similar. Instructing is people orientated. So are firefighting and police work. We used to say that men became lawyers and doctors, but these are also both people orientated professions. Women not liking dirty jobs? You can't get a lot dirtier than nurses cleaning up after incontinent old folk. I believe a lot of lab technicians are female, and that's "thing" orientated and technical. There are many more of these....

4) The evolutionary argument is a little vague, and sounded to me like trying to fit the facts to a plausible theory. Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

5) OTOH, the biological argument would explain why the 6% of female pilots is so constant over time and place. BUT...there is another possibility here. Some people - and I suspect it's a measurable percentage - don't respond well to social conditioning. Maybe that percentage are the ones who buck the "boy thing" norm (or whatever) and become pilots (or whatever). that could explain the consistent percentage. At present that seems to me more plausible. But I could be wrong, and I'd love to see more research being done on this, and if I was younger and had stayed in the field instead of learning to fly, maybe I'd do it.....

Sorry to have probably bored most of you with this long post, and bye for now. :)

[Pace]

WhirlyBird

It also does not take into account that the dividing line is you are a boy or you are a girl as we all know that line can be closer in biological makeup in some people rather than others and even very sexy girls can have male genes and visa versa.
some women have male traits and some men have female traits of differing degree.

not saying that women pilots are butch or tending to male biological makeup at all but find it interesting on why certain sectors go into caring or service industry and others go into perceived butch high adrenaline stuff.

Why are so many male cabin attendants gay?

We have all heard of the high profile gender testing cases in athletics?

Why do so many women go into nursing? not sure it was because mummy made the little girl dress up Dolls in nurses uniforms as a child.

I also question statistics and research as they can be tailored to suit any argument and usually are especially by drug companies or government who have a financial gain at heart or even by pressure groups trying to make a political point.

so really do not think it is as simple as whether you were dressed in pink or blue as a baby and we would all be the same if we were all dressed in grey as some would claim or whether you were a rebel (join the club) :ok:

Pace

[Armchairflyer]

Whirlybird,

regarding the video, I didn't take notes either and it has been some time since I have watched it in full length, but no disagreement with either your summary or the potential limitations you mention. However, IMHO your phrase:"It's a boy thing" barriers when I was training? Not barriers as such, simply....surprise.perfectly epitomizes whether it's an issue beyond academic discussion, even regardless of nature vs. nurture or widespread personality differences between women and men.

As long as the "it's a boy thing" is purely descriptive and girls are merely met with surprise because they are a statistical exception, I really do fail to see any problem that society should tackle. By contrast, a normative "it's a boy thing", implying that girls cannot or should not is a very different kettle of fish. And I feel that the discussion about women in aviation (or any other predominantly male activity) sometimes mixes up those two aspects. Put differently, I am as much for letting persons of either gender follow their interests without being sneered at for being "untypical" as I am against any quota idea along the lines of "50% of the population are women, so unless about 50% of pilots (or whatever) are women, too, there is a problem".

[Desert185]

I'm a male, career, professional pilot who has been flying since 1967. Besides being too lazy to work and too nervous to steal, the thing I really enjoy about the profession is it's honesty and it's related lack of having to overthink or anal-ize real-time experiences (like some of these forums). :bored:

You go home or to the hotel knowing immediately that you either did well or not so well. No long term findings or repercussions. You either did it or you didn't. You made spur of the moment decisions and immediately realized the outcome. That's pretty honest work that I appreciate, without suffering the grind of management by committee that is so prevalent in an office environment. :ugh:

Just make a decision and fly the frickin airplane. Happy hour and dinner starts when we land. :ok:

Multi-colored male or female...it doesn't matter. Jump in the sim, show me your stuff and you'll have the job...if I get the feeling that you play well with other children. Attitude and aptitude...some people are their worst enemy.

[Pace]

Desert

I to don't care about colour male female or whether there is a Gorilla in the other seat as long as they can fly ;)
But that was not the thread question or answer ;)

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

I wonder if there are nursing bulletin boards where people debate why there are so few male nurses?

G

[Jan Olieslagers]

:ok:

There surely must be those, yes.
With equal lack of useful answers, doubtlessly.

[Tester78]

Flarepilot:

really, how many famous or outstanding female pilots are there?

and I can name a dozen male pilots that are outstanding.


role models?


I also know that some airlines have gone out of the way to recruit and train and re train female pilots.

If you are a troll, then I bite.

My partner was a TRI/TRE on the 757/767 for a major flag carrier at the age of 23, and she is now a test pilot for Airbus.

You?

Get back to the 19th Century. You have no place on a professional pilot's forum, and seem to be a prime example of the attitudes often faced by women in our profession.

:mad:

[Desert185]

Pace:

Desert

I to don't care about colour male female or whether there is a Gorilla in the other seat as long as they can fly
But that was not the thread question or answer

Pace

:ugh: Sorry we can't use you.

[Whirlybird]

Armchairflyer,

As long as the "it's a boy thing" is purely descriptive and girls are merely met with surprise because they are a statistical exception, I really do fail to see any problem that society should tackle. By contrast, a normative "it's a boy thing", implying that girls cannot or should not is a very different kettle of fish. And I feel that the discussion about women in aviation (or any other predominantly male activity) sometimes mixes up those two aspects. Put differently, I am as much for letting persons of either gender follow their interests without being sneered at for being "untypical" as I am against any quota idea along the lines of "50% of the population are women, so unless about 50% of pilots (or whatever) are women, too, there is a problem".

Hmmmm...sometimes it's purely descriptive. Sometimes admiring even ("oh wow, you fly helicopters!"). But more often than not it's critical on some level or another. I could give examples, and I will if you want, but trust me, this is how it is, mine and many other women pilots' experiences. Though you're right, these aspects things do get mixed up sometimes. Also, some of us care more than others, but that's not the point.

I agree with you about the quota aspect, and I dislike any kind of quota, including so-called positive discrimination, which I feel is patronising to women and does more harm than good. But that's another topic.

[Ralis]

We've got a good mix
2 A-Cats Men
1 B-Cat/Dept CFI Woman-- soon to employ another
5 C-Cats 3 men and 2 women

I think its awesome having some diversity and have found at least in my case a bunch of very professional people operating in a relaxed and enjoyable environment.
Having the top two spots taken by a male and a female I thinks helps facilitate a open non bias (consciously and subconsciously) environment where students, pilots and instructors can be assured they a judged on their ability and attitude for its own merits and not influenced by whats in their pants.

There are both good and bad pilots, both female and male (and some in between) lets not make that assumption based off of gender but their individual ability and behavior.

[juliet india mike]

Male nurses have been 10% of the total for 40 years. I think cos the uniform is not so sexy.


A more interesting debate based on this thread may be why so many pilots went to private schools that had CCF.

(RGN.RMN.PPL)

[cockney steve]

I don't know where the following fit in,-
Boys generally grow up thinking the kitchen is a "girly" place Though I believe it's now compulsory for boys to do some Domestic Science, sewing ("Textiles?" ) etc.
Usually, there's a bit of resistance to these "emasculating" activities..bloody odd that most professional chefs. bakers and couturiers and tailors are.....MALE
A surprisingly large percentage of babies are born with no clearly defined sex....not quite hermaphrodite, but not fully formed.

apparently the size of the Clitoris determined which way the medics "pushed" the infant's sexuality..... that may account for a lot of gay/ transgender decisions/lifestyles.
My daughter grew up with two brothers....would happily play with lego, do woodwork, metalwork, plastics moulding, baking, candlemaking etc. despite dad being a mechanic, showed no interest in cars, until she came of driving age and was the first to learn and pass her test.
Having ignored advice about "bangers" burning oil and the necessity of heeding an oil-light, she siezed the engine. dad helped her to fit another engine, clutch, cylinder head etc. she learned and absorbed the fundamental mechanics......
As a student she worked in a call centre....young male colleague arrives late.....#@><*^ car won't start, but it's OK when it eventually does, says he....Ah, it'll be the points, says she....lad totally unconvinced, but lets her have a look and is somewhat surprised that she can find her way round an engine....even more surprise when, through lack of tools, she bends the fixed-point , reassembles and say's "try that"....car springs into life instantly....she now has a new best friend at work.!
Nature or nurture?....dunno....pretty sure the sexes, at a primitive level, have the natural affinity with home-making / rearing (female) or hunter/gatherer/ protector (male)...but see point above , re- medical interference with newborns.......I believe there is a more enlightened approach gaining ground to the question "what have we got?" the unsayable, " Well , your baby's not physically formed to one gender or the other,yet." Is now getting spoken....about bloody time! medical profession have finally acknowledged they're not god .

[Viola]

I know women in their 40s who weren't allowed to choose 'Technology' at school. It would have 'nudged' the less determined ones away from that career.

Another woman (early 30s) who wanted a technical career had tremendous pressure from her grandmother to leave school at 16 to 'enjoy herself before she had a family'. She did stay on at school, but didn't continue with the career as she had children early. Whether she would have done this anyway, I don't know, but she certainly was 'nudged' into a particular action.

There's a surprising amount of social pressure on women even now. I touched on this in my earlier post - does society disapprove of women who don't put their families first? Many men spend all day at weekends at the airfield, but few women do.

In a slightly different vein, a few years ago a woman climber, who had children, was killed, and there was criticism in parts of the media about her taking 'such a risk'. I don't remember any criticism about men with children taking risks. Mothers in the media are criticised for 'putting their careers first' and being away from home, even though their husbands are at home with the children. Fathers aren't criticised for working away.

[Pace]

There was also a very brave female ferry pilot with 2 young kids who was killed ferrying! Having children does bring extra responsibility especially with single parents who can be male or female!
Not everyone has or wants children some women put their career above raising a family.
An old saying a man has to do what a man has to do should be for both sexes !
We all have to do what makes us feel alive if that includes risk we should manage those risks not drop what we love doing!
That goes for men and women

Pace

[Viola]

Absolutely true, Pace. There's another thread on this forum started by a man with young children thinking about the risks from flying.

But I do think there's more pressure on women from society not to take those risks. There's more pressure from some sectors to conform to an 'idea' of women should be.

Some women take no notice and do what they want to do, but some women are affected and are 'nudged' away, so there's fewer women pilots.

[Desert185]

Speaking of "nudging"... The past 10-15 years have never been better for women being hired in the airlines. In my experience, women can almost pick and choose which airline they want. If you happen to be a minority woman, then your chances are even better. Men, on the other hand, have a more competitive experience in the hiring process.

Not my view of equality, but them's the facts as I see them after my 32 years in the airlines.

[A and C]

Having flown with a lot of women pilots I find it very hard to tell them apart from the guys in terms of ability when flying some are good ...... Some not so good. I know of one who was a lackluster instructor but now captains a 747, I can also think of a number of guys who meet that description.

I worked in a company that had a woman as a chief pilot, she was very good at the job.

All in all those who think there is some reason that most women can't fly are 100% wrong! they have equal ability to fly per head of population as men do.

Some above have alluded to woman's lack of technical understanding, traditionally this was due to the fact that they had not been messing with old cars & motorcycles before that arrived at flying, that may be true to start but in my experience this was not helped by the male flying instructors who's primary aim when trying to teach a female was to get their legs over ! I found most females to be very receptive to technical knowlage and put most of the myth of female lack of technical knowlage down to piss-poor instruction......mostly by men !

Interestingly I am now seeing the same lack of technical understanding from the new breed of male students who have spent their youth playing with computer games rather than trying to keep old cars & motorcycles running.

The one thing that is very refreshing about flying with women is the lack of ego issues on the flight deck.......that makes for a very good working atmosphere and enhances flight safety.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Interestingly I am now seeing the same lack of technical understanding from the new breed of male students who have spent their youth playing with computer games rather than trying to keep old cars & motorcycles running.

The one thing that is very refreshing about flying with women is the lack of ego issues on the flight deck.......that makes for a very good working atmosphere and enhances flight safety.

I have a personal theory about the first - modern cars are much less accessible, and much more reliable - so your average young man or woman nowadays is much less likely to have any real knowledge of how to manage engines or mechanical systems in general. I think that this is making learning to fly (or specifically the bits where you have to manage the complex machine we call an aeroplane) that bit slower and harder, through no fault of theirs, for the latest generation of young pilots.


On the second - I've taught martial arts for quite a few years, and before that a couple of outdoor sports. I've noticed across all of that, that women - particularly older (as in, over about 19) women learn differently to most males. Men when they can't immediately grasp a technique tend to deal with it by use of a degree of aggression or force - generally controlled, but nonetheless by preference to patiently getting the technique right. Women put their energy into getting the technique right - which as a teacher, is very satisfying.

I don't have enough experience as an instructor to judge whether they do the same in the air, but I'm willing to bet that they do.

Of course there are exceptions to all rules - but certainly in this, I've met very few in the dojo.

G