Canberra B2 "Antlers" ?

[CoffmanStarter]

OK ... so forgive my attempted seasonal reference in the above title :ok:

The initial production Canberra B2's had two VHF 1/4 wave aerial "Horns" bonded to the perspex canopy. See picture below (far left). I believe the Port Horn was connected to VHF Box 1 with the Starboard Horn connected to Box 2. This was in the days of the comparatively primitive 1985/6/7/8/9 VHF Tx/Rx sets fitted to the majority of RAF aircraft in the 50's ... and well before the introduction of the UHF ARC52 and the combined UHF/VHF PTR175 Tx/Rx sets (when I believe a lower fuselage VHF aerial was added along with the usual UHF Blades).

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/IMG_0050_zps58bec71b.jpg

A couple of questions for Canberra Aircrew and Technicians to satisfy a genuine personal historic technical interest ... sad I know :(

Q1. With RF Energy (c.10 Watts) being emitted within the proximity of the pilot's main instrument panel were there any known/noticeable impacts to say the compass or other electrical moving coil type instrumentation (e.g. ILS needles) ? Were there any special procedures for undertaking a compass swing given this config ... other than the normal "electrics on/radios in Rx mode" ?

Q2. I'm guessing that the original location of these "Horn" aerials was to preserve the streamlines of the aircraft (but I may be wrong on that) ... but it would seem to represent quite a compromise given that (a) there is no appreciable ground plane, (b) the possible adverse dielectric properties of perspex and (c) what must have been a fairly "directional" propagation pattern i.e. 90 degrees to the direction of flight. So given all this were VHF Comms effective or was switching between boxes common ?

Looking forward to replies ...

Best ...

Coff.

PS. Any other apparently strange aerial configs on RAF aircraft would be of interest too ... it still beats me why there were Upper & Lower UHF Blades on the Chipmunk for example ... I didn't notice any appreciable difference :confused:

[Wander00]

ISTR the JP had upper and lower aerials too. Might be wrong - long time ago

[CoffmanStarter]

W00 ... Yep JP5 most certainly had U & L UHF Blades

[Warmtoast]

CoffmanStarter

Any other apparently strange aerial configs on RAF aircraft would be of interest too ...

This Hastings at Abingdon in 1959 sports a variety of protuberances, some of which I recognise (Rebecca, ADF and HF), but others no.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Abingdon/AbingdonHastingsLanding-Straightened_1280x794.jpg

[Wander00]

Anyone got a picture of the IRIS Hastings at Watton in the 60s, that had a lot of aerials, ISTR

[Courtney Mil]

This, apparently, is Iris Hastings.

http://i.imgur.com/qIPsbwz.png

[ancientaviator62]

Warmtoast,
very nice pic of a Hastings landing. Looks like to have been on a PTS para detail and is arriving back with the para doors removed and 'stowed'.
We only refitted the para doors in the air if it was absolutely necessary and on continuous para training trips they were always left off between lifts.

[Wander00]

CM - I love it, and she is better looking than an RAF Hastings...........

[MPN11]

Does Iris Hastings also bounce on landing? Anyone had experience? :)


(Sorry, very OT)

[Warmtoast]

Wanderer00

Anyone got a picture of the IRIS Hastings at Watton in the 60s, that had a lot of aerials, ISTR

Can't help with 1960's picture of IRIS, but the photo below I took at 5 FTS (RAF Thornhill, S. Rhodesia) in 1952 during IRIS' annual visit. Apart from an extra ADF, no extra aerials as far as I can see.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-IRISHastings.jpg

[ian16th]

Not VHF, but a Canberra B2 AE story from long ago.

Conningsby late 1956 or early 57, I worked in the Radar Bay, and I was detailed to do a Minor or Major, I can't remember which, on a 57 Sqdn B2 in the ASF hanger.

I'd never worked on a Canberra before, but with the confidence of a newly promoted 19 year old Cpl I sallied forth.

One of the checks was an insulation test of the Gee-H AE. I test this with a Wee Meggar and find that it is below spec. So I raise a snag in the F700.

Then it is discovered that the Gee AE was integral to the tail fin! The only fix is to change the whole fin :(

Y'all can imaging the concern amongst the rigger types.

After much discussion at some level much higher than Cpl, it was decided to let the a/c fly, as long as there was no performance problem with the Gee.

And a gentle word in my shell like, not to do it again.:ok:

Happy Daze

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Warmtoast ... I'll have a closer look at the Hastings and come back :ok:

Ms Hastings is only demonstrating the technical merits of "horizontal polarisation" over "vertical polarisation" when applied to the installation of a Mil UHF Discone aerial ... oh ... and one of those looks like this ... :}

http://www.ringbell.co.uk/ukwmo/img/Discone.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Warmtoast ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Hastings_zps8c73bf7c.jpg

Had a closer look at your pic and annotated what I think to be the type of aerial/service in operation for certain (but happy to be corrected :ok:). But it became clear when doing this that over the life of the Hastings there were quite a few comms/aerial mods in play.

I'd guess that aerials 4 and 6 were FM whips probably associated with Air/Ground comms with the Army ... :confused:

Aerial 5 is most probably for Air VHF ... no clue as yet on the other possible aerials/protuberances highlighted.

IRIS Ops

Apparently RAF Hastings WJ338 operated as IRIS 3 with 115 Squadron in the 60's ?

I think I'm right in saying that IRIS 2 was a Lancaster with IRIS 4 any Argosy ... would you or anyone else be able to share a little more on IRIS Ops

Best ...

Coff.

[Wander00]

Coff - Yes the IRIS at Watton in the 60s was Iris 3 a Hastings. Replaced by an Argosy when 115's Varsities were replaced by whistling wheelbarrows.

[ian16th]

Coff, One of the whip aerials is probably a Gee II aerial.

Transport Command Hastings were normally fitted either with Gee II or the American Loran.

During my very short posting to Dishforth, Jan-Feb 59, The Hastings there had Loran and the Beverley's Gee III.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Ian for your contribution and previous story ... great to have you aboard :ok:

[dragartist]

Coff, as you know I am only a youngster. Do I assume that IRIS was the Flight Checkers? or more correctly Nav and landing Aid calibration. hence the reference to 115 Sqn.


I had some experience designing aerial installations for the Andover EMk3 and 3A aircraft. One job I did mid 80s was take off a Rebecca Aerial and replace it with a sharks fin I think it was for IFF. This was on XS644 which apart from Flight checking had another role. (I still don't think I am allowed to talk about that) The big SRIM we did was 4108 IIRC before BAe took the task from us to fit IRFIS (Inertial reference Flight Inspection System) I am not sure if this was not a crib from the CAAFU HS748 operating out of Stanstead.


Our unit EWAU/ D held all the drawings including lots from Varsity and Argosy (not too sure if the Argosy racks did not end up on the Andover as this was before my time. My old boss would know). We had several drawings of many aircraft which may have helped you in your quest re the Hastings and certainly some marks of Canberra. I did a bit on the PR9 and T17. I remember seeing drawings of the Watton Canberras which had been withdrawn from service.


On the R we were able to put out a bit of misinformation. such as the antennas on the tailplane which were initially for aerodynamics to balance the ones above the cockpit, even more so when we changed them for bigger blades then even bigger blades a few years later. Most amusing was the little dielectric panels under the 4a tanks. They were really covers for rubber wheels that came into play in the event of a wheels up landing. Not many of us knew what was really under the fin top canoe!


I heard a tale at a mates funeral a few weeks back about some surplus solid silver J/K band horn antennas being offered for scrap. they may have been brass or copper with a few microns of silver. Certainly not worth the money being asked on that well known interweb auction site.


Looking forward to hearing the resolution to the OPs antlers.

[Warmtoast]

Dragartist

Do I assume that IRIS was the Flight Checkers?

When I was at RAF Thornhill (see my photo of IRIS 2 - TG560 above) and heard on the grapevine that the annual visit from the UK of the RAF Watton-based IRIS (Inspectorate of Radio Services) Hastings carrying the Group Captain CO of IRIS and his team in their specially adapted aircraft was due, the purpose being to check whether signals standards and Air Traffic Control procedures at R.A.F. Thornhill were up to standard. We were told that we were to adhere religiously to radio procedures as laid down by Air Council Publications (ACPs) when contacted by IRIS on the R/T.

Rumours abounded about the impending visit and for signals and ATC personnel who’d not come into contact with IRIS before, their visit instilled a sense of fear and foreboding. IRIS’ visit was to check whether signals standards and Air Traffic Control procedures were up to standard. If they weren’t then woe betides the miscreant! Allegedly an adverse report could have a severe effect on promotion prospects. In the event nothing untoward happened. We (the VHF/DF operators), ATC staff and signals staff who maintained the ground-based signals aids all received a clean bill of health and later a signal from IRIS confirmed, much to our relief, that R.A.F. Thornhill ATC and Signal Sections complied with the agreed standards and procedures as laid down by the Air Ministry, which was a relief.

Later back in the UK operating ground-based radio aids, IRIS was in the habit of sneaking around UK airspace and making R/T calls and asking to use radio navigation aids without warning or prior notice.
ISTR there was an awful upset when an airfield on the South Coast (Tangmere?) didn't match what IRIS and the Air Ministry considered best practice, from wrong responses to radio calls to Nav-aids not working properly. This would have been around 1954-1955.

Flight Global has an article about Signals Command with a bit about the rôle and functions of IRIS here:
1959 | 2988 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1959/1959%20-%202988.html)

[QuePee]

I have a couple of pictures of IRIS III WJ338 taken when she was not looking too good at RAF Catterick in the early 70's. I have no idea if they help to shed any light on the subject under discussion (its way out of my league).

We were based at RAF Watton in the early 1950's and my father as involved with the early IRIS aircraft, particularly the Lancaster. I have some pictures somewhere, if can track them down, I will post later.

QP

http://i39.tinypic.com/30cr8kp.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/16kunq.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Warmtoast for pointing Dragartist and me to that very interesting Flight International article from the 50's on RAF Signals Command :ok:

Dragartist those drawings you mention would be very interesting to see ... I just hope they have been archived somewhere safe. It certainly appears that you had a few interesting engineering challenges during your career. I'm not an engineer, more an enthusiast on such matters, I always wanted to know more than the "line of sight" and "inverse square law" radio simplicities around air comms and nav kit. Whilst modern digital signal processing and equipment is far more efficient, some of the kit used in the post WWII period through to the 70's by the RAF was simply outstanding in terms of ingenuity ... even if some of it required a human "signal processor" to use or interpret output.

It seems to me that Signals Command and IRIS Ops could be likened to the CFS Trappers in the mil flying world. I think I'm right in saying that 115 Squadron was responsible for Mil Aids & Radar Calibration ... I certainly remember the Argosies at RAF Cottesmore in the early 70's (I was in short trousers then). I'm sure there must have been some crossover work with the CAA CAFU organisation who undertook similar alignment checking work in the civilian world (maybe someone can enlighten further). For those interested there is a potted history of CAFU here ...

CAA CAFU Organisation (http://www.cafuhistory.com/index.html)

QueePee

Thanks so much for the pics of WJ338 ... and if you do come across the Lanc images please share with us ... but please don't make a special effort.

WJ338 Khormaksar December 1962

http://www.radfanhunters.co.uk/Khormaksar-Military/WJ338-Iris%20III_Ksar_12-62_RD.jpg

Image Credit : Web Site : Radfan and the Hawker Hunter (http://www.radfanhunters.co.uk)

Note IRIS III on the tail fin

It would also seem that WJ338 had other "fame" during her RAF career with a flight to Moscow in the early 50's to repatriate seven civilian internees from Korea ... I bet a few bits of additional "earwigging" kit would have been strapped in for that trip :cool:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/583ca669-32b2-4af7-a8b0-98a0e9ce2164_zps2ac99c77.png

Image Credit : Flight International May 1953

A Hastings Through The Iron Curtain 1 (http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1953/1953%20-%200535.PDF)

A Hastings Through The Iron Curtain 2 (http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1953/1953%20-%200570.PDF)

Source : Flight International May 1953

Best regards ...

Coff.

[dragartist]

Warmtoast, I echo Coffs thanks for posting the link to the Flight article on Signals Command. apologies for the interesting thread drift. don't know if this has been done previously but we must answer the question for the OP on the Canberra.


When I began work at EWAU many of our drawing Numbers began 90G (90 group of Signals command) we used this designation for jigs and tools rather than the RAFSEE. Most of our jigs were made at SSU Woolwich. Some of the senior guys I worked with had come from Medmenham. I am afraid Coff that all of these drawings would probably have gone. I know a lot did not make it from Wyton to Waddington. I did not go to Waddington with the Unit. I went to Brize to do something altogether different. The nature of our business was such that we never took any documents or drawings home. (I regret not having done so now) I understand there are examples of our work in the heritage centre at Wyton. I have seen some of the 1980s and 90s LRUs I had a hand in at our last reunion. I am pleased some of our stuff is preserved. I understand the Nimrod R at Cosford is almost complete.


I consider myself to have had a very interesting career. With many firsts and ground breaking things: 1st GPS on an operational RAF aircraft I recall that as if it was yesterday when we fired it up on Boxing day during GW1. The numbers matched those painted on the hangar floor used for aligning the IN, even through the roof! I was a mechanical engineer and did not fully understand wiggly amps. Frankly I often wondered if even the fairies did!!. It took a while to get my head around vertical and horizontal polarisation of the UHF LST Sat comm. It was just small bore plumbing to me.


We did a bit with CAAFU post Falklands where they made a rack for the C130. I had an offline chat with Ancient Aviator about this. Their 748 was almost raspberry ripple when I went to Stansted. (have a metal key ring somewhere around the house as a memento) Did not see the Herc in the link to the book.


I cant recall if they had the Milligan lamp on their aircraft


Sorry to bore people.

[Warmtoast]

Given the thread drift perhaps I may add some more that is relevant to 115 Sqn Varsities.

In June 1956 I was with Fighter Command Communications Squadron (FCCS) at RAF Bovingdon.

A 90-Group Varsity calibration aircraft (from Watton?) came down to Bovingdon to calibrate the nearby ROTOR Radar station at Chenies. This meant flying outbound and inbound tracks to the Radar station on various headings. Rather boring but it provided a useful opportunity to sightsee London from around 10,000ft. This photo shows the navigator of the Varsity at his plotting station. I recognise the R1155 HF receiver with the big tuning dial.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Bovingdon/BovingdonRadarCalibrationVarsity.jpg

During the flight I took a photo of a sparsely occupied London Heathrow as it appeared in June 1956 from 10,000ft looking east. The newly completed Europa Building, later Terminal 2 is in the centre island, whilst alongside it the Oceanic Terminal; later Terminal 3 is under construction. In 1956 transatlantic traffic departed from the North Terminal alongside the A4.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Bovingdon/BovingdonRadarCalibrationVarsity-LA.jpg

No M4 as yet (in 1956 the M4 was but a gleam in the planner’s eye - the London bit of the M4 westwards opened nine years later in 1965), however the Bath Road (A4) shows up on the left as the dark strip running top to bottom parallel with the north main taxiway & runway.

On the right the A30 (the lighter of the two darkish strips) wends its way through the (then) rural delights of Middlesex towards Hounslow and London. Straight ahead and beyond the airfield boundary, just beneath the cloud line the A312 can be seen running left to right.

[Warmtoast]

Coff re your post #20. - WJ338 trip to Moscow

Among the diplomats released and flown back to Britain in WJ 338 was George Blake, former Vice-Consul in Seoul who was later convicted as a spy working for the KGB, and is still alive living in exile in Moscow I believe.

[ian16th]

When I began work at EWAU many of our drawing Numbers began 90G (90 group of Signals command) 90 Group became Signals Command. Can't remember just when, it was during my service so 1952-65, and I don't know why.

Is the history of 90Gp/Sig Cmd and the dates of the changes written down anywhere?

I installed a Eureka VII at the French Air Force Base Orange-Carritat, this was May 58. I then flew on the 'Watton Varsity' that came out to do the calibration, so that I could see 'my Eureka' working OK.

It wasn't classified at the highest level, because of the 'shadow' created by Mont Ventoux.

[Wander00]

Certainly went from Signals Command back to 90 Signals Group in Strike Command about 1967 as I commanded the GoH for first visit to Watton of C in C Strike.

[MPN11]

Warmtoast ... one of the best early LHR photos I've seen :ok:

Have you considered letting Heathrow Airport Limited (or whatever they're called this month) have a copy?

[CoffmanStarter]

Dragartist, Warmtoast, Ian16th, Wander00 ...

Don't worry about thread drift chaps ... all fascinating stuff :ok:

Warmtoast ... I certainly recognise the R1155 HF Receiver ... I've mentioned before that I spent time at school helping to get an 1154/1155 rig working ... l learn't a lot doing that ... even making some duplicate connectors in metalwork :eek:

As for George Blake ... shame he hasn't choked on caviar and vodka by now ... bl00dy traitor :mad:

Great pic of London Heathrow ! What's even more scary ... I wasn't born until the following year (September 1957) :eek:

Dragartist ... You might like to look-up XS644 on the URL below. A few images to review ... but scroll down to about the middle of the page ... Mid 70's shot when she was with 46 Squadron and then in 1978 with 51 Squadron at Wyton ... sporting a SLAR Belly pod.

RAF Andover Images (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=29115)

Wander00 ... I know you flew the Canberra ... but did you get to fly the T17/T17A variant ?

Seem to be drawing a bit of blank on my original OP on the Canberra VHF Horns ... shame :(

I'll have a another go with a bit more follow-up info I've come across ...

Thanks again chaps ... Happy Christmas to you all :ok:

Best ...

Coff.