View Full Version : nasty party... leading to nasty country??


alicopter
17th Dec 2013, 23:07
What's going on in GB???? What an ugly society we are sliding towards! It is becoming embarrassing, every day a bit more. I have been residing more or less all of the time in the UK since 1977 and have paid taxes / contributed to the local community like most of us, live respecting the law and have never had any problem with anybody so far but these last few WEEKS, almost every single day I am experiencing a very desagreable situation... Almost every new person I talk to is very agreable and polite UNTIL I speak to them, then they turn really agressive and rude, at best they are completely ignoring me!!!!. Of course, as a Frenchman, my accent is still quite strong, even after all these years but my english is fairly good and 99.9% of the people I talk to understand me without me having to repeat myself... I now see a complete change of attitude as soon as I open my mouth!!! and it's beginning to seriously p.ss me off...!!!! Am I develloping a sudden paranoia? Don't think so, I am known for being cool, polite and pleasant... or at least, I WAS........



TomJoad
17th Dec 2013, 23:19
alicopter, sorry to hear that. Where in the UK are you, is it a perhaps a symptom of the big city (are you London based)? For my part, I do not believe all of the UK is like that but I do not for one second doubt your experience.

Capetonian
17th Dec 2013, 23:19
You are probably just the victim of the traditional deep seated antipathy between the English and the French.

As an English speaker, I find the French rude and aggressive, and I'm not fooled by all this false politeness 'bonjour messieurs bonjour mesdames' when someone walks into a shop. As soon as you need service or something a millimetre out of the ordinary, up go the barriers and the hackles.

My French is quite good but I find I get further by speaking it really badly than properly, they seem to have sympathy!

alicopter
17th Dec 2013, 23:35
I live in East Anglia, Suffolk and I have never ever have had any problem at all, on the contrary I might add ... so far, people have been very agreable, it never entered my mind I was not being welcome... but lately, say two to three months I have noticed a change, enough for even my english wife being shocked when shopping with me in Southwold this afternoon....

parabellum
17th Dec 2013, 23:41
alicopter - maybe you should stop wearing that French rugby shirt?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

TomJoad
17th Dec 2013, 23:44
Strange, I can't offer any explanation only to say it reflects poorly on those who treat you such.

Dushan
17th Dec 2013, 23:47
You are probably just the victim of the traditional deep seated antipathy between the English and the French.

As an English speaker, I find the French rude and aggressive, and I'm not fooled by all this false politeness 'bonjour messieurs bonjour mesdames' when someone walks into a shop. As soon as you need service or something a millimetre out of the ordinary, up go the barriers and the hackles.

My French is quite good but I find I get further by speaking it really badly than properly, they seem to have sympathy!

Interesting observation Capetonian. I find the same, for myself, because my French is pretty good, although accented. Mrs. D does not speak any and they always bend over backwards to help her and accommodate her.

I guess they figure that if you bothered to learn the language you should have also learned that dry cleaning takes 2 weeks to deliver, the corner backery is closed on Wednesdays afternoon, and you cannot have your sweetener in the Starbucks latte as it is being made.

alicopter
17th Dec 2013, 23:47
I am known for having good dress sense, short hair, clean on me... must be my carefully trimmed 3mm beard... a la Jeremy Paxman... that makes me look rough. Or I am loosing my good looks altogether... More seriously, I find it irritating. (people's attitude, not my facial hairs...) Al.
PS I would have thought shop attendants in Southwold would have been glad to take my money... or at least answer my questions gracefuly, especialy since they charge twice as much as everywhere else around here...

rab-k
18th Dec 2013, 00:22
Perhaps you're a victim of public attitudes being changed by a xenophobic press/Government, portraying all EU citizens within the UK as freeloaders, to be prevented/actively discouraged from coming to the UK, or if already here, discouraged from staying.


Most red-top reading individuals probably can't tell the difference between a Frenchman speaking English and a Pole doing likewise, and probably think both are Romanian or Bulgarian, who are simply in the UK to get the benefit of the NHS, a council house and unemployment benefit, whilst being a full-time Big Issue vendor.


All I can suggest is that you wear an item of clothing with the logo of Les Bleus, accentuate your French accent, and start every sentence with Bonjour.


A truly sad state of affairs.


Bonne chance mon ami.

gunbus
18th Dec 2013, 00:31
DUSHAN,

Mrs. D does not speak any and they always bend over backwards to help her and accommodate her.

Be thankful SLASH isn't around !!:E

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
18th Dec 2013, 01:24
Yes Alicopter,

You are becoming paranoid. I very much doubt it's because you're French. In the last 15 years in the UK, society has become very selfish. People are the rudest they've ever been. They jump queues when they can, don't thank you when driving for letting them through a single lane road, many mothers with kids in their car are self-obsessed maniacs on the road. I could go on and on at my pet hates these days. I wouldn't take it personally. These are the times we live in. Be yourself and don't change. Plenty of courteous folks out there still.

I would imagine the good inhabitants of East Anglia are gearing up for the influx of Romanians because the popular press has intimated that East Anglia is where they are headed.

UKIP will win the Euro elections. The country has had enough of the Euro project. It doesn't work.

bosnich71
18th Dec 2013, 01:25
Ali ... don't worry about shop assistants in Southwold, even here in Oz the younger shop assistants seem to be getting ruder by the day.... or is it that I'm getting older, nah, couldn't be that!

cargosales
18th Dec 2013, 01:43
I am known for having good dress sense, short hair, clean on me... must be my carefully trimmed 3mm beard... .

Aha, I think I see the problem... you are perceived by the locals as having no dress sense whatsoever because you have face fungus and should therefore be ignored/belittled/treated as appropriate. Then of course you make the problem worse by actually speaking!

CS

Wots had exactly the same problem in Paris, despite being clean shaven.

And don't get me started on that late-night cab ride back to the hotel ......

sitigeltfel
18th Dec 2013, 05:58
but these last few WEEKS, almost every single day I am experiencing a very desagreable situation.You are probably experiencing the Christmas effect. People will be stressed out with the constant pressure of rampant consumerism and the forced expectation of bonhomie.

Just wait until the new year and it will probably default back to normal. :ok:

Krystal n chips
18th Dec 2013, 07:07
" You are probably experiencing the Christmas effect. People will be stressed out with the constant pressure of rampant consumerism and the forced expectation of bonhomie"

What a lovely and totally dismissive comment !.....far more likely as others have pointed our that the combined effects of media led bigotry and Gov't induced hysteria for votes in 2015 are, sadly, having the desired effect.

ShyTorque
18th Dec 2013, 07:45
It's the 3mm stubble. Folk think you're a cross dressing local woman. Either grow it long or shave it off then it will be less confusing. ;)

onetrack
18th Dec 2013, 07:55
Alicopter - Has this rejection and nastiness only started to happen since you got that large tattoo on your face, that reads, "F##k the Queen, F##k the U.K., F##k all the British!" :ooh: ;) :)

Capetonian
18th Dec 2013, 07:59
Trzeba nauczyć się mówić po Polsku.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4NAQknxuZIgj1qIc4N66vnZNCcOZW_5Sgchm7Sl3rJFf7k5pA

alicopter
18th Dec 2013, 08:12
"Perhaps you're a victim of public attitudes being changed by a xenophobic press/Government, portraying all EU citizens within the UK as freeloaders, to be prevented/actively discouraged from coming to the UK, or if already here, discouraged from staying." quoting RK...
This is what I was hinting at in the title of my post... These idiots are living in coucouland! The trouble is that I am not the kind to be bullied. I am about to add schizophrenia to my newly acquired paranoia and so far the only reason I moderate my answering back is just to not lowering myself to their level but enough is enough. It used to be rarely encountered but becoming the norm, at the MOT station, in shops, even when talking to people walking their dog on the beach... The night of the surge tide, as my son and I were putting my sailing dinghy out of reach from the waves on its launching trolley, somebody left the crowd, ran towards us and started to help pushing, talked normally to my son (who is english and french) and after I started to talk to him, in fact thanking him... he just stopped in his track and just left without a word... mumbling something in his beard that we could not hear but sure did not sound pleasant. How nice!?

cavortingcheetah
18th Dec 2013, 08:18
In Southwold in particular, the shop people probably think you're Romanian or even Bulgarian. Come up to Norfolk and you'll run a risk of being shot by a friendly game keeper for being a roaming Roma.
Why is this?
Well, it's very simple, left to their own devices Cameron and his ilk would have stopped the impending and much talked up inrush of Europe's poorest to Albion's shores from January 1st. Unfortunately, British interest's public enemy #1, Nick Clegg, whose wife is rumoured to make much money from her directorship of a wind mill manufacturer in Spain, doesn't want this preventative legislation to go through. He and his nasty little yellow birdy party, by their blockading action, wind the British up to incandescent levels of apprehension which leads to jingoism and dislike of anyone perceived to be a foreigner. You are suffering from the activity and politics of the nasty socialist party, labour now being almost a communist refuge.
Blame the Liberal Democrats!

Capetonian
18th Dec 2013, 08:25
To be fair, I don't think the British are any more anti-French than they are anti any other foreigners. East Anglia has had a large influx of East Europeans and as someone else has said, I doubt if many of the locals would immediately recognise a French accent as opposed to a Polish or Latvian accent.

There are places in the UK where people are still pleasant and civilised to each other. I am fortunate to spend a lot of my UK time in such a place.

Andy_S
18th Dec 2013, 08:36
.....but these last few WEEKS, almost every single day I am experiencing a very desagreable situation...

Whatever people like K 'n' C may try and imply, the British people have not turned into xenophobic, foreigner hating bigots in a matter of just a couple of weeks.

I tend more towards Sitigeltfel’s view that at this time, the so called ‘season of goodwill’, people tend to be more rushed, feel more harassed, and are under more stress than normal.

Just be yourself. In my experience, we – The British – are far more responsive to your attitude and demeanor than your nationality.

Smeagol
18th Dec 2013, 08:42
In Suffolk or Norfolk it is obviously the lack of an extra digit on each hand and the missing third eye that is causing the reactions. They obviously recognise you are not "local" and therefore "foreign" and to be treated with fear and loathing!!!

:):):)

alicopter
18th Dec 2013, 08:49
I AM being myself, I do not think I have changed personally but it is so obvious this aggressivity that even people with me, friends or family have noticed. It's like a switch... nice until you talk then you can physically see the change!!!... How sad.

@<hidden> I understand your humour but really?... I am well "travelled" and usually feel at ease where ever I am, even in deep rural Suffolk and try not to stereotype but, humour asside, it starts to stink and I am getting worried for our Society.

cavortingcheetah
18th Dec 2013, 09:20
It's quite possible that there is a degree of resentment because you speak better English than those with whom you are attempting to converse. English common parlance these days is a gluttonous mélange of dialects. Those who can speak the language with any degree of purity are often, or so I find, seemingly abused in queues at such places as B&Q and Tesco, not so much at Marks, Spencer and Waitrose.

Basil
18th Dec 2013, 09:46
As a friend's French wife said to a group of us (mid 20yo RAF pilots): "One at a time you are OK but, in a group, you are insufferable!" Cue pilots rolling around laughing :)
I've usually found the Frogs, esp outside Paris, agreeable and courteous.
Do recollect, earlier this year, driving a French registered car back into the UK and shortly after arriving in England getting some lip from kids in a passing vehicle so, perhaps alicopter has a point.
Come to Scotland; we're much more polite!

Lone_Ranger
18th Dec 2013, 09:50
Yes Alicopter,

You are becoming paranoid. I very much doubt it's because you're French. In the last 15 years in the UK, society has become very selfish. People are the rudest they've ever been. They jump queues when they can, don't thank you when driving for letting them through a single lane road, many mothers with kids in their car are self-obsessed maniacs on the road. I could go on and on at my pet hates these days. I wouldn't take it personally. These are the times we live in. Be yourself and don't change. Plenty of courteous folks out there still.

I would imagine the good inhabitants of East Anglia are gearing up for the influx of Romanians because the popular press has intimated that East Anglia is where they are headed.

UKIP will win the Euro elections. The country has had enough of the Euro project. It doesn't work.



In complete agreement

sitigeltfel
18th Dec 2013, 09:53
driving a French registered car back into the UK and shortly after arriving in England getting some lipI have had the same.

There are now some eejits in England who think that "Awa an stick yer heid up yer erse" is a quaint French turn of phrase.

goudie
18th Dec 2013, 09:59
Surprised Cap'n Draper hasn't expressed his thoughts re. our attitudes towards the French

Basil
18th Dec 2013, 10:17
There are now some eejits in England who think that "Awa an stick yer heid up yer erse" is a quaint French turn of phrase.
My wife point blank refused to engage ours in conversation from the right seat ;)

CathayBrat
18th Dec 2013, 11:09
God save the King, and death to the French.

"Firstly you must always implicitly obey orders, without attempting to form any opinion of your own regarding their propriety. Secondly, you must consider every man your enemy who speaks ill of your king; and thirdly you must hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil."

Vice Admiral Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson (September 29, 1758 – October 21, 1805)

alicopter
18th Dec 2013, 12:13
Well, to stay in "joke" mode, I can tell you that I am descending from William the Conqueror's familiy having roots in the first recorded Viking settlement in Normandy, Bricquebec, (near Carteret), which in Nordic means "village by the little river"... on my father's side and my mother's, she being half Sicilan and half Roman from Rome, my ancestors probably had a say in what is now England so, in a way I am more at home here in UK than a lot of English.... and ho!, you used to pay for your fish and chips in Sesterces, Denarius and Asses if my memory is good.....
Frankly, is it worth arguing about? Fly safe all... Alain.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Dec 2013, 13:00
To be fair, I don't think the British are any more anti-French than they are anti any other foreigners.C'mon, we've been fighting the French for thousands of years, even in 1910 people were talking about rearming to face the French threat.


And don't forget them slogging their guts out to get those Exocets working in time to kill our servicemen. And some of us weren't too keen on what happened to the Rainbow Warrior either (I haven't bought any French products since (apart from Champagne, not a lot of choice there)).


So the reasons are there if you want to look for them. But more likely, as others have said, any accent is mistaken for Eastern European, plus as the thread title suggests the Tories are getting nastier on purpose to compete with UKIP in the right-wing race to the gutter.

Capetonian
18th Dec 2013, 13:11
A few years ago I went out with a Polish friend of mine. She is highly educated and speaks better English than most native English speaker, with a trace of an accent. We got chatting to a group of people in a bar who were clearly BNP types, a bit to the right of even my views. The one girl starting going on about 'these f**** Polish c**** that come over 'ere and take our jobs and shag our men .... should be sent back home preferably in a wooden box ...' usual crap. My friend just kept quiet ... I knoew exactly what she was up to. About 10 minutes one of the guys asked her what she did. She said " I'm one of those f**** Polish ........ etc ...." and repeated the woman's words!

You could have heard the proverbial pin drop.

cockney steve
18th Dec 2013, 13:16
It's probably because the local straw-chewing hayseeds are fed up with the invasion of yuppy "hooray Henry" city slickers from london who buy all the houses and trap off with the nubile local wenches.

Me, stereotype people?....Perish the thought!

Dushan
18th Dec 2013, 14:36
And some of us weren't too keen on what happened to the Rainbow Warrior either (I haven't bought any French products since (apart from Champagne, not a lot of choice there)).




Ah, spoken like a true Champagne Socialist. As for Rainbow Warrior, one of the few things the French did right.:ok:

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Dec 2013, 14:44
one of the few things the French did right
Are there any other terrorist murders that you think were a good thing?

Dushan
18th Dec 2013, 15:05
Murdering terrorists is always a good thing.

sitigeltfel
18th Dec 2013, 15:33
Killing terrorists is not murder, merely vermin eradication.

OFSO
18th Dec 2013, 15:38
All this whingeing: I can't believe I'm hearing it !

Having lived in four countries and worked in many more, I can only say I've met all types, nice and nasty, never found any one country to contain more of one sort than the other: it's what I believe is called HUMAN NATURE.

P.S. Don't agree about Paris - I go there a lot, find the inhabitants very friendly, taxi drivers included.

P.P.S The nice lady at the local post office put me right about a misconception of mine this morning, smiling at me as she leaned over the counter, the top two buttons undone and her blouse opening to reveal.......phew.....large but firm, pink-tipped...... thank God the Spanish Post Office isn't privatised.

alicopter
18th Dec 2013, 15:54
Sorry but this is not whingeing, the shock on my wife's face yesterday and the fact that it is getting so frequent makes me think we are going to be in trouble soon. I am a big fit guy, 1,82m, 90kgs and a flat stomach so people do not usualy mess with me but the agressivity with which I am being met sometimes makes me wonder what would happen if I was a nervous nasty piece of work... This lack of elementary respect is just not acceptable. Dark days ahead I fear.

SpringHeeledJack
18th Dec 2013, 15:59
I think Alicopter, it is time to tell you the truth. You were trained and programmed by the de Gaulle government to act as a 5th columnist in the UK should the need arise to trip up those pesky rosbifs in the future. You have lived peacefully amongst the natives all these years, but now in times of desperation monsieur Hollande has reactivated your programming. You do remember that strange phone call from France 3 months ago don't you ? Your mission is to annoy the lovely people of Suffolk by sending out secret wavelengths of belligerent energy to cause them undue extra stress at this time of joyeux noel.Il n'y a rien que vous pouvez faire mon ami :(

Tu ve ma photo, heh ?



SHJ

BruisedCrab
18th Dec 2013, 16:44
1.82m.... a big guy. There's the problem, les Francais thinking a bloke under 6ft is big. Joyeux Noel!

alicopter
18th Dec 2013, 16:50
@<hidden> funny you mention DeGaulle, my father was a great fan, I even have in my library Big Nose's "Complete works" Bleu Blanc Rouge Leather Bounded Special Edition printed for him with his name on the first page..... but I am too young to have been influenced... I did not DO May 1968, missed it by a year damn!. Seriously, I am no lethal weapon and my mission, whether I accept it or not is not to make trouble but when I encounter such, in my opinion, stupid behaviour, I feel like sharing it and may be do something about it. Since you mention it, you give me an idea, I am going to secretly film my next confrontation and will post it here... or sell it to the Daily Whatever, might even make a few bucks with it. In Rome, do.....

Windy Militant
18th Dec 2013, 17:10
Alicopter your not paranoid the "Cythraul sais"* have always been an obnoxious lot. The only reason the Queens is as nice as she is, is because she's half Scottish and quarter German! ;)
Dere draw I Cymru bach, ni'n cyfeillgar iawn ochr hyn I clawdd Offa!**:ok:



*Fiendish or demonic English.
**come over to Wales Bach were very friendly this side of Offa's Dyke.

TBirdFrank
18th Dec 2013, 17:46
Mais Monsieur Alicopter, c'est parce que, quand les Anglais va en France, les Francais prenez grand plaisir en faisant le meme chose que vous decrivez en Angleterre!

Nous Anglais essaye de utilise son meilluer Francais de l' ecole comme un ami and les Francais tombe par tout en souris " Ah merde - ecouter le Rosbif essayant de parlais Francais"

In all seriousness, in my three visits to La Belle France in my 63 years, I have never felt so unwelcome as in Boulogne, when on seeing a local bookshop putting up display of shipping posters for some holiday or other, which I also collect, I toddled up and said - in best schoolboy Franch - "C'est magnifique - J' ai beaucoup de posters comme cela"

He didn't even reply!

On the old France on her farewell visit approaching Le Havre with 400 French on board, a lady camer flailing up to me asking questions in French at 100mph.

"Pardon moi" I repled "Je n' ai pas beaucoup de Francais"

"Pah" she said - "Le chat noir du nuit" Spot on darls - I thought. You started it!

Then we visited Brest and La Rochelle - different again - so perhaps you need to get away from the East Coast, because it resembles so closely what I have experienced on the Normandy coast!

Are times and intolerance getting worse - on balance - yes, or am I just getting older?

Krystal n chips
18th Dec 2013, 17:49
" Whatever people like K 'n' C may try and imply, the British people have not turned into xenophobic, foreigner hating bigots in a matter of just a couple of weeks."

Actually, you are correct in this respect.

We, well certain sections of our society have, been objecting to the presence of foreign chaps ( exclusion clauses apply for those with a significant amount of $$$$'s / ££££'s however) for many years now as exemplified on here with frequent monotony.

It may, however, or rather clearly has, escaped your notice that in more recent times, there has, shall we say, been something of a pious and bigoted outpouring from the media outlets most likely to influence the thinking of those who object to immigrants .....other than when said immigrants can be used as cheap labour that is.

Likewise, in their attempt to influence the gullible, Camerloon and Co. have been freely jumping on the bandwagon for those useful commodities in any politicians life.....known as votes.

" I tend more towards Sitigeltfel’s view that at this time, the so called ‘season of goodwill’, people tend to be more rushed, feel more harassed, and are under more stress than normal"

Rushed and stressed???....... in Southwold,?....in winter ?.....in Suffolk ?.....any time of the year ?......not very familiar with East Anglia it would seem!.

OFSO
18th Dec 2013, 18:04
I must at this point quote a saying of Mrs OFSO whenever we hear some foreign person complaining about life in Spain:

NOBODY ASKED US TO COME HERE AND LIVE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU SHOULD P*SS OFF BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM.

I have always thought this an excellent statement, and I try to put it in practice by not complaining about the Spanish. Instead I pop over the border and complain about the French instead.

alicopter
18th Dec 2013, 18:11
I am not talking about the French here, I know how stupid they can be too, and I have been discriminated in France as well when driving my GB plated car... but not at the level and the frequency it has reached here. My point is not who is, or is not xenophobic, my point is that in a matter of a few weeks, things have changed big time and that worries me because I am anticipating troubles and when you can almost physically "feel" the hate you generate by just addressing some people, I fear the worst. That's all. Very selfishly I would like to carry on living peacefuly (at least for the next couple of years for family members health reason) here in sleepy Suffolk as you say, without having to be on "combat mode" all the time.
And... to reply to OFSO, somebody DID ask me to come and live here and I did, we did, because sometimes you have to make sacrifices... otherwise, we'd probably be sailing around the world by now before retiring, once pulling sheets and halyards had become too hard for me, on our fermette in Normandy...

Dushan
18th Dec 2013, 18:19
OFSO, so un-PC:=

ATNotts
18th Dec 2013, 19:02
Britain, at least it's print media, politicians, and far too many correspondents on forums (or is that fora?) such as BBC News website "Have your Say" have become blatantly racist, and overtly xenophobic.

The UK is indeed becoming a "nasty country" as an EU commissioner suggested a few weeks ago, and I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with being a subject of Her Majesty.

One thing is for certain, if the racist ire that is inflicted overtly on hard working immigrants, particularly from central and eastern Europe were to be addressed towards Indians, Pakistanis, Jamaicans, or worst of all Jews, there would be howls from all sides.

As they are Europeans they seem to be fair game.

500N
18th Dec 2013, 19:12
"
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/530146-nasty-party-leading-nasty-country-2.html#post8213739)
And some of us weren't too keen on what happened to the Rainbow Warrior either (I haven't bought any French products since (apart from Champagne, not a lot of choice there)).

Dushan

Ah, spoken like a true Champagne Socialist. As for Rainbow Warrior, one of the few things the French did right.:ok:"

I agree re what the French did was right, the only problem was the unfortunate
photographer who got killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Gertrude
"Are there any other terrorist murders that you think were a good thing? "

Plenty or should that be all ?

OFSO
Love the statement :ok:

500N
18th Dec 2013, 19:14
"and far too many correspondents on forums (or is that fora?) such as BBC News website "Have your Say" have become blatantly racist, and overtly xenophobic."


The same happened here with Asylum seekers. The mood of the whole country shifted.

Is the reason for this because the general population do not like what is occurring and are seeing some getting a "free ride" from the start ?

OFSO
18th Dec 2013, 19:29
Let's not have a sense-of-humour failure here.

Mrs OFSO and I work with the French Lions Club raising money for children with cancer, - 2013 was our best ever year - and spend a lot of time with French associates on the other side of the border.

And I work in Paris several times each year and would live there permanently if I could afford an apartment. Paris is my favourite city.

MG23
18th Dec 2013, 20:38
As they are Europeans they seem to be fair game.

If God wanted Britain to be part of Europe, he wouldn't have built the English Channel.

wings folded
18th Dec 2013, 21:01
If God wanted Britain to be part of Europe, he wouldn't have built the English Channel.
Initially he didn't. The thought came later. A bit absent minded was God.

Lone_Ranger
18th Dec 2013, 21:24
......and stupid

ExSp33db1rd
18th Dec 2013, 22:48
........(I haven't bought any French products since (apart from Champagne, not a lot of choice there)).Lindauers Brut Cuvee, New Zealand Sparkling Wine.

Drinkable..( and affordable ! )

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Dec 2013, 23:52
Lindauers Brut Cuvee, New Zealand Sparkling Wine.

Drinkable..( and affordable ! )
Yes we do now drink a fair amount of fizz from Oz and NZ, it's got better over the decades.

G&T ice n slice
19th Dec 2013, 08:31
There's always that Italian alternative.. "Nasty Spewmante"

alicopter
19th Dec 2013, 08:50
Thanks for your sommelier's advice, I will have an Australian Champagne toast with God, when I've found him, in order to ask him why he created the Channel but in the mean time, if somebody could tell me how I am supposed to react to my current problem of being discriminated when in the City (or the country side for that matter! I am not talking of the City of London, there I know how to deal with the problem, I just have to flash a Dollar bill and all is resolved with a smile!) I mean as a citizen, most of the time zen, legally here, paying taxes and expecting to be treated "normally"... Do I "talk" back with the same rudeness? Do I let my fists do the "talking"? Do I dial 999 and wait the seven hours for the only one County Bobby on duty? Do I call the FBI? Do I (excuse me if I am being rude) take my trousers down turn around and say "help yourself"? With a little exageration of course, but even if I am too young to have known it, I am getting like a taste of what the Jews must have lived through when this short guy with a funny moustache was in activity....... (That's it, Godwin's law...) Good day all.

Lord Spandex Masher
19th Dec 2013, 08:55
Laugh at them. Loudly. In their faces. :ok:

alicopter
19th Dec 2013, 09:09
Laugh at them. Loudly. In their faces. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Sorry, I tend to "like" people who make me laugh. I think Humour is very valuable, like friendship, altruism etc... and I do not share a laugh with this kind of d.ck heads!!! More likely to teach them manners with a stick, my knuckles are too precious to me to be damaged on idots noses...

bosnich71
19th Dec 2013, 09:52
Nasti Spumante ... or Spewmatic.

Lon More
19th Dec 2013, 10:09
La méthode champenoise was, I m told, pioneered by a Brit. A very drinkable, and cheap, alternative is available in Luxembourg.

The further the UK goes down the pan, the more turds seem to float to the surface, Rather than look for a reason internally it's easier to blame outsiders. I noticed it a couple of days ago in a pub near Dover (an area dependent on foreign trade)

Andy_S
19th Dec 2013, 10:34
There's always that Italian alternative.. "Nasty Spewmante"

Spumante is, I believe, a generic term to describe an Italian sparkling wine.

You might be thinking of Asti Spumante, which is a sweet sparkling wine.

Prosecco, on the other hand, is also technically a Spumante, but as a dry sparkling white is a quite agreeable Champagne substitute.

While I like Champagne, I think you pay a premium for the name, so I’m not too proud to drink cheaper but perfectly good alternatives like Cava.

SpringHeeledJack
19th Dec 2013, 10:37
I noticed it a couple of days ago in a pub near Dover (an area dependent on foreign trade)

To be fair there aren't many 'nice' pubs in Dover and the locals seem to be dominated by obnoxious chavvies (with apologies to anyone nice there!).

Monsieur Alicopter, perhaps there is a 'mauvais oeil' on you the last months and people are reacting to that ? Stranger things have happened.....



SHJ

Capetonian
19th Dec 2013, 10:45
The Catalan cavas are superior to French champagne and better value. The commercially well known ones such as Freixenet are drinkable but very much at the lower end of the range.

South Africa produces a large range of Methode Champenoise sparkling wines too. Not as dry and grassy as French ones, and I enjoy them more, of course it's a matter of personal taste.

dead_pan
19th Dec 2013, 10:48
Maybe its something to do with our impending doom come 1st of Jan, when, according to vast swathes of the media (even the 'impartial' BBC have got in on the act - probably 'cos news has been a bit slow since the death of Madiba) we're going to be trampled to death by hordes of Bulgarian and Romanian immigrants.

Actually, I'm more inclined to blame Christmas for our increasing grumpiness. I find all this unbridled consumerism both obscene and anachronistic. As for those godawful round-robin Christmas cards ("Our daughter Portia was sooo pleased her Chlamydia test came back negative" etc etc) and appalling drinks parties with people you'd gone out of your your way to avoid for the past year... I routinely vent my frustrations on any passing Frenchmen.

Lon More
19th Dec 2013, 11:37
To be fair there aren't many 'nice' pubs in Dover

Are there any at all?

This one was in St. Margaret's .

alicopter
19th Dec 2013, 12:45
Hi, just to show you how bad things are... It's CAVOK this morning over East Anglia, beautiful sea, beautiful scenery, birds are happy and so am I. I live 250 yards from the beach so I take my dog for a walk on the sea front and he is being a bit too "enthousiastic" towards another dog. The lady owner walking towards me finds it hilarious, smiles, tells me how strange it is that her dog has always attracted this kind of behaviour from other dogs..... I reply oh, that's alright, mine jumps on anything that moves, dogs, cats, goats, it must be this Spring like weather. She stops smiling, her face "shuts down", she just walks away without saying anything....... What have I said to upset her? Did she feel unsafe? Were my words insulting? I shout "good bye, have a nice day" she keeps going away. Gone. It is not going to wreck my day but this is just not "normal".... We have had a little note from the local Police Station in our letterbox, a few days ago, asking us to take extra care since there has been a recrudescence of crimes in the area lately... can this be a consequence of this warning?

Andy_S
19th Dec 2013, 13:07
can this be a consequence of this warning?

I think you're adding 2 and 2 together and getting 43.......

G&T ice n slice
19th Dec 2013, 13:41
and getting 43.......

of course, the meaning of life...

G&T ice n slice
19th Dec 2013, 13:43
a sweet sparkling wine.

trust me on this, I got the name right.....

but when one was only 16 summers, one will try anything to excess

dead_pan
19th Dec 2013, 14:10
I reply oh, that's alright, mine jumps on anything that moves, dogs, cats, goats, it must be this Spring like weather. She stops smiling, her face "shuts down", she just walks away without saying anything....... What have I said to upset her?

Maybe the vivid imagery of your pooch rogering some hapless goat had something to do with it? We are a nation of animal lovers, after all.

Basil
19th Dec 2013, 14:22
I reply oh, that's alright, mine jumps on anything that moves, dogs, cats, goats,
She didn't, perchance, think you'd said:
"Oh, that's alright, I jump on anything that moves, dogs, cats, goats, . . " :};)

The SSK
19th Dec 2013, 14:33
You're living in the wrong era, alicopter. When Sacha Distel was in his prime, dog-walking ladies would be throwing themselves at your feet. And a bit before that, Maurice Chevalier. Nowadays anyone singing 'Zank 'eaven for leedle geirls' would be locked up without his feet touching the ground.

As for me, I will shortly be relocating to the land of the Ch'tis, where I am sure my stumbling French will be tolerated with supreme good grace and friendliness.

alicopter
19th Dec 2013, 15:48
@<hidden> The SSK, Bienvenue dans les brumes du Nord... hope you settle in fine... may be you can then visit me in the Cotentin and have a taste of my very own cider... The best on Earth.
Mercedes Benz SSK? Me Land Rover 1973 109 Mk3 series 9 seater african roof SWagon, my all time favorite.
Just a few words to mention the fact that a few minutes ago, two very polite and really nice delivery guys from John Lewis brought me my new sofa and they reconciled me with mankind... could not have had a better service. May be I am just turning into a grumpy old sod....

The SSK
19th Dec 2013, 16:19
Not a Mercedes Benz, not a car at all.

Your invitation is most gracious but the Cotentin is five hours' drive away, far beyond my chauffeuse's comfort zone. France is a bloody big country.

I think it's sad you are encountering the kind of reaction you describe but I'm not surprised. UK is fast becoming Prejudice Central. Everything is somebody else's fault.

MG23
19th Dec 2013, 16:41
I think it's sad you are encountering the kind of reaction you describe but I'm not surprised. UK is fast becoming Prejudice Central.

If I remember correctly, Labour openly admitted to having opened the flood gates to mass immigration--even though it would put many of their supporters out of work--because it would annoy the Tories. So you shouldn't be surprised by the reaction, when it's precisely what Labour set out to create.

I go back to Britain every now and again, and it's nothing like the country I grew up in. I'm not sure why anyone would expect the remaining natives to be happy with that. It's not as though Labour campaigned on that policy, nor would they have been elected if they did.

Sadly, there's really nothing that can be done now.

500N
19th Dec 2013, 16:47
"because it would annoy the Tories."

Just shows how stupid Labor is then if that was the reason.


Destroy your own country just to piss off the Tories :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

OFSO
19th Dec 2013, 17:42
Destroy your own country just to piss off the Tories

Strangely enough the mayor of a local town here did exactly the same just before the last Municipal Elections, giving concessions to the Maghrebis - even ones that were still living on the south side of the Med. They moved in to C----- and of course all voted for him. I was told over 500 of the votes he got were from North Africans. Are the locals pissed off ? Yes. Were the number of votes he received sufficient to render him impregnable ? Yes. Will he win the 2015 Municipal Elections? very probably, there are even more living here now, all happy to vote for him.

500N
19th Dec 2013, 17:46
I was talking to someone the other day in the UK about Norfolk,
Snettisham, Wisbeach, etc etc, and was told that it is now
Wisbeckistan.


OFSO
I lived in the UK when Birmingham area had an influs
of West Indians and Pakis. The first big change.

Lon More
19th Dec 2013, 19:37
OFSO wrote Destroy your own country just to piss off the Tories

You have Tories in Spain?

Basil
19th Dec 2013, 20:05
Were the number of votes he received sufficient to render him impregnable ? Yes. Will he win the 2015 Municipal Elections? very probably,
How far does that sort of behaviour have to go before it leads to armed insurrection?

Basil
19th Dec 2013, 20:07
You have Tories in Spain?
Lon, you're thinking of 'toros' :E

ExSp33db1rd
19th Dec 2013, 20:28
I noticed it a couple of days ago in a pub near Dover Wogs begin at Dover.

I go back to Britain every now and again, and it's nothing like the country I grew up inMe too

I lived in the UK when Birmingham area had an influs
of West Indians and Pakis. The first big change. Enoch was right.

I'm not anti-immigration, but if a Country is perceived as being so great that others want to leave the land of their birth to live elsewhere, why do they then try and change their host country to then resemble the one that they have been so keen to leave ? Doesn't make sense.

I'm a furriner in NZ, but I chose that state of affairs, no one made me, and I'm not trying to change the place into a clone of the UK - tho' I miss the cozy atmosphere of ( some of ) the English Pubs !! - Fat Chance I'd have if I even tried, Kiwis are very proud of their Country, and I'm often reviled as just another Pom, but only in a teasing, bantering way, no real offense meant or taken.

Maybe the World is becoming one big village, but do we really want to all dress alike, speak alike, and look alike ? Wot's wrong with a bit of National Pride anyway ?

Remember China in the days of Mao, they all wore black pyjamas and were indistinguishable from one another - is that what we want ?

bosnich71
20th Dec 2013, 10:10
Alicopter ..... back in the 80's the French government decided to undertake a bit of nuclear weapons testing in the Pacific area. Despite the site of the test being some distance from Australia the government / media/ Greenpeace here in Oz carried out a campaign of vilification against not only the French government but also French people, businesses etc. This reached such heights that I even saw a French restaurant which placed notices in their front window stating that they didn't agree with the French tests. However eventually Aussie media etc. decided to once again have a love affair with all things French and things returned to normal as they are now.
Perhaps if the British government ever decide to listen to the concerns of it's citizens over such things as unlimited immigration when the country is suffering from a shortage of housing,a health service that is hugely over loaded, schools that are struggling to educate non English speakers all to the detriment of British citizens then maybe the British will not feel the need to be quite so grumpy as they now appear to be.

alicopter
20th Dec 2013, 12:51
Hi, @<hidden>, I do not think me being French is the problem, in fact I doubt many people can pinpoint my nationality just by hearing a few words I say... in fact, since our Southwold "kind of a shock", my wife, who works for a UK Agency which employs a big percentage of foreign scientists has talked about it with a few of her collegues, Spanish, German, Russian and French and they all confirmed to her, there has been a change of attitude toward them lately, so it is not me getting paranoiac... This is the only point I was trying to make when starting this thread. And how should I react to this discrimination. Do not bring me on political grounds, it is too slippery. All I will say is that you cannot encourage people to come over here, count on them to prop up the economy by not paying them, shutting your eyes on the problem for years and then, when the problem is getting too tricky to deal with, take the opportunity to blame them for all the misery of the world... Just make Identity Card compulsory at all time so that you can check who gets what and where, this simple action would make a great saving for a start. I have seen people getting in their big car setting off for a round Britain trip to go signing in Job Centers, I have seen four guys working on ONE identity so only one contribution but four persons drawing benefits when needed... Just ask yourself why do these often french native tongue immigrants in Calais try to get to the UK when they could have bigger benefits in France... but just ONCE. Its better for them to have three medium than one large.... That the british people are not happy, I quite understand but how to put it?? Through who you elect, you have the life you deserve... obviously. But, this is becoming annoying for all the other foreigners here legally and contributing, to be discriminated like this. Personnally, I cannot vote here so I can criticize... I have nothing to do with this sad state of affairs. Just as you can blame me for the Rainbow Warrior ****-up by the French Government, even if I did not vote for them and used to be in the ALAT... furthermore, I am a keen supporter of Greenpeace, always have been. Cheers. Alain

Capetonian
20th Dec 2013, 12:55
Just make Identity Card compulsory at all timeExactly what needs to be done in order for the authorities to clamp down on many types of abuse, not just social security. It would also enable them to control and take action against unwelcome illegal aliens if used jointly with 'stop and question' powers.

Unfortunately, the lefties come out of the woodwork when this is mentioned and bleat about 'invasion of privacy' and 'this is what they did in Nazi Germany', both statements being nonsensical.

gorter
20th Dec 2013, 13:10
Point of order. It was an officially 'leftie' government that wanted to introduce ID cards but the Tories scrapped it when they came to power. Including a quote from the coalition agreement "to reverse the substantial erosion of civil liberties under the Labour Government and roll back state intrusion."

Capetonian
20th Dec 2013, 13:15
I wasn't aware that the 'Tories' had come back into power. You have a left of centre coalition, which means that the country is treading water, if not sinking. In many ways, the worst possible scenario particularly when headed by a PM with as much backbone as a jellyfish and whose policy can be summed up in one word : appeasement. It doesn't work.

alicopter
20th Dec 2013, 13:32
@<hidden> You ARE good... Respect... you always land on your feet. Regards, Alain
PS you should have been a politician.... ;)

Gertrude the Wombat
20th Dec 2013, 15:18
Just make Identity Card compulsory at all time
No thanks, we're not a police state.


Unlike France, where I once got arrested for not having my passport with me on a trip to the beach. It's my business, not the state's, if I want to take my kids to the beach.

Capetonian
20th Dec 2013, 15:22
Quote:
Just make Identity Card compulsory at all time
No thanks, we're not a police state.

Post #92. Thank you for proving me correct.

alicopter
20th Dec 2013, 15:52
Then fine by me, but do not complain if for 1 person paying in the system you have three or four persons claiming out of the system... and you do seem unhappy enough about the situation!.
Just like the Managing Director to whom I pointed the fact that one of his employees had three different faces as the week went on... He never answered back...Must have been an hallucination... I do hope that two of them never saw a doctor or that they all lived in the same accommodation and never were unemployed somewhere else... after all, there were about 600 people working for him, how can you memorise 600 faces?.... Mind you, no absenteism with this system, even better than four 0 hours contract sharing one position, less paperwork!

Krystal n chips
20th Dec 2013, 18:11
About those nasty left wing persons ( being PC you understand ) and the little matter of ID cards......

Identity Cards Act 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006)

Ironic really in that one of the many, and valid concerns, was about databases and access, which, as we now know, have all be mined anyway.

And then, there was a clarion, or possibly carrion call, for "stop and search"......again. The last paragraph in the above mentions "stop and search" which has erm, been available to the police for some considerable time.

Still, it's easy to understand why and how this confusion would arise in the mind of a self-confessed U.K.I.P supporter who cannot actually vote for them, and indeed proclaimed to the world ( although to be fair, there have been numerous proclamations to a rapt :zzz: world, so this one may well be lost in the mists of time) due to not actually being a UK resident but would consider taking out citizenship in the future, if and when U..K.I.P ascend to power......which is about as likely as Elvis and Lord Lucan sharing the bill together at a comeback gig at the Albert Hall.

Thus one can only assume that the status of said proclaimer is as an immigrant and thus not familiar with current UK legislation......or the Railways and T.O.C's for that matter.

Lon More
20th Dec 2013, 18:20
Lon, you're thinking of 'toros'

Probably, both full of bullshit. :eek:

Lon More
20th Dec 2013, 18:23
Post #92. Thank you for proving me correct

and post #93 for proving your bigotry.

OFSO
20th Dec 2013, 18:39
I once got arrested for not having my passport with me on a trip to the beach.

Arrested ? Dragged off to a police station with cable ties around your wrists ?

I've seen many a frenchman (and even more delightful frenchwomen) on beaches who were very obviously not carrying ID (unless they had inserted it into an orifice provided by nature). True, as in almost every European country, you are required to be able to identify yourself at all times, but exceptions are made in certain cases, and "on the beach" (if not a trip "to the beach") is one.

Rosevidney1
20th Dec 2013, 18:52
Reflecting on what has been said, I am sure that the many erosions of our traditional rights and freedoms, Salami slice after Salami slice has led to us becoming increasingly intolerant and brusque. Whatever happened to the polite society of my youth?

Lon More
20th Dec 2013, 19:01
It's a common thing in most European states to be able to prove your identity although I've never had any problems with the forces of law and order when not carrying my passport. Maybe a bit of attitude adjustment was seen to be called for?

OFSO
20th Dec 2013, 20:49
And in Spain, when driving, carrying the current receipt from your bank showing you paid the car insurance is also mandatory. When I also offered the receipt for having paid the annual road tax, the municipale just laughed.

Nah, passport not necessary for British if you have your driving licence with you. Or even a ten-quid-fake-UK-ID card. Accepted everywhere I go (France, Spain) as the real thing, although I add it might be 'fake' but the data on it is correct.

bosnich71
21st Dec 2013, 04:05
Ali .... your reply to my comments just prove that things are out of control in Britain with regard to fraud, illegal immigration whatever. Politicians of all persuasions are forever saying that they, and their party, will do something about these problems, however they do S.F.A. ! Is it any wonder that the average Briton is starting to get a little bit p****d of about it all ? All of my friends and relatives in Britain are highly critical of the lack of action by their elected representatives. They are sick of being lied to whether it is about the E.U. or 'Human Rights etc. Perhaps a British version of 1789 is required to focus the minds of those who rule us ... if they do in fact rule us when it seems that the eurocrats in Brussels are seen to have far to much influence over British affairs.
I'm glad to hear that you do not consider your woes with the Rosbifs to be down to anti French feelings in U.K. Whatever the British may think of the French they at least stand up for themselves when they think that they are being wronged in some way, for example in the recent bust up with regards to the Eco Tax.

G&T ice n slice
21st Dec 2013, 10:12
Lon - if you're in NL surely you're registered with the vreemdelingenpolitie? and have one of their ID cards?

Lon More
21st Dec 2013, 11:17
Like everybody legally in NL I'm registered at the Gemeentehuis and have a identiteitsbewijs , a credit card size document valid for 5 years and legal as a travel document in the EU, although I had problems getting into the UK earlier this year with only that and no passport.

bosnich71
21st Dec 2013, 11:20
The U.K. Office for national Statistics has warned that some towns in Britain will face a rise of more than 20% in their population for the years between 2011 and 2021. Overall the [population in Britain is forecast to rise by up to 8.6 % in the same time frame.
The answer from government is to keep on inviting people from all over the world to travel to Britain because the country needs them.
And some wonder why the natives are getting restless ! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/infopop/icons/icon7.gif

alicopter
21st Dec 2013, 11:24
Yes, things are getting out of control because there is a big misunderstanding in the UK as to the purpose of Europe. You (the brits) are not in the EU for the same reasons most of the other members are. Probably because when you joined you were not explained properly. Personnaly, as a French, I cannot wait for the UK to be OUT of it, we might then be getting somewhere. Just understand that if you did not make it easy to cheat, if all the people who are employed were paid the normal minimum wages, if there were not the infamous 0 hours contracts taking people out of statistics, there just would not be any interest for foreigners to come here and push locals on to the dole queue... You like and promote competition? Well, your own workers cannot be that competitive, otherwise, they would get the jobs and foreigners would go away, because believe you me, with your weather and your food, anywhere in the world is better... The goal of Europe is to play the same game with the same rules, at term. You play the game with different rules, but increasingly, the british people realise that they are being taken for a ride, so hopefuly, instead of approving of French getting down in the street and voicing rightly or wrongly their concerns, demonstrate themselves....

dead_pan
21st Dec 2013, 12:16
with your weather and your food, anywhere in the world is better

How DARE you!!! You can say what you like about our food, but never, ever criticize our weather.

Given the apparent inexorable rise of Mme Le Pen in France, I think there's a fair chance you'll be "considering your options" with regard to the EU before us.

Krystal n chips
21st Dec 2013, 12:19
Erm, alicopter.....mes enfant......and post #110, or rather the contents of said post and the opinions you have less than diplomatically expressed.

I hate to say it, but, whilst you will, in part, have endeared yourself to some of your equally charmless and new found supporters on here, including those who would happily regress into their "Little England " enclave, you have, at the same time offered us an insight as to why, quite possibly, you have been the recipient of less than welcoming overtures from the local population.

Whilst I have every sympathy and understanding for foreign nationals who come to the UK seeking work, and who duly encounter the increasing media and tacit Gov't induced "hysteria" and, in the case of the general population, downright insular and crass ignorant bigotry, if, and we don't know how factual this observation may be in your case, you have expressed similar sentiments in public, then it's no surprise you have been subjected to a hostile response.

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Dec 2013, 12:27
not actually being a UK resident but would consider taking out citizenship in the future, if and when U..K.I.P ascend to power
Um, I thought UKIP were opposed to immigration? So if they ascend to power they might not actually welcome people who "would consider taking out citizenship"?

bosnich71
21st Dec 2013, 12:28
Ali .... it's not always a case of British workers not being competitive. I have 2 family members in Britain who were quite happily being competitive, in the building industry, until they were supplanted by arrivals from Poland and other places to the East. Companies have used the E.U. open borders rules to downgrade wages, end of story.
Two younger relatives have been attempting for over 12 months to get places to train as nurses. They have the necessary educational qualifications and have been accepted, it is the training course that is the problem. This is NOT a case of two British ladies being un competitive but rather a case of a government preferring to import labour from overseas. That same government states, of course, that the NHS/ pensions etc. etc. only survive because of foreign workers
Your statement regarding the British not playing by the rules whilst the rest of Europe do does not fit with the facts .... try reading the E.U Forum web site with both eyes open. Britain did not join a supra national body dedicated to a Europe with an over riding government which cannot even get it's accounts cleared. I realise that it was a French person who came up with this idea of a non country, all in Europe together run by a bunch of faceless beaurocrats but I would have thought that the French of all people would have been the last to sign up for such a non democratic idea.
I note that you have, like so many others who have decided to take advantage of Britain workwise, criticised the British weather and food and yet you wonder why the British are getting fed up of the whole immigration issue.
I hesitate to ask, but why if things are so bad, do you continue to live in U.K. but I can well understand that others in Britain would ask as, no doubt, would any French person hearing complaints about his/her country from someone who has chosen to live there.

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Dec 2013, 12:28
Arrested ? Dragged off to a police station with cable ties around your wrists ?
No cable ties, but the entire family was taken to a police station where we were detained for some hours.

bosnich71
21st Dec 2013, 12:32
K.C. ....." Insular, ignorant, crass, bigoted" ?
For a moment there I thought that you were describing yourself. L.O.L.

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Dec 2013, 12:33
Companies have used the E.U. open borders rules to downgrade wages, end of story.
As they use every other opportunity to reduce costs, in accordance with their legal duty to their shareholders.

For example, how many IT contractors in the UK are earning the same amount (let alone more!) as they were in 2000? - that's not due to open EU borders, it's due to the fact that there are internet connections to India.

bosnich71
21st Dec 2013, 12:35
Gertrude ... yes and I have a friend in Britain who had to train Indians as part of his job before being sacked as his job had now been transferred to India .... and that has been a real success hasn't it ?

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Dec 2013, 14:54
.... and that has been a real success hasn't it ?
Not entirely ... but that does mean there's still some work for us, taking projects that have been screwed up by foreign outsourcers and doing them again properly.

BenThere
21st Dec 2013, 15:15
Wait a second! It's not working immigrants that are the problem. It's welfare seekers.

UK and the rest of Europe need immigrant labor as their low fecundity is not replacing aging indigent populations.

If every Western nation imposed a five year wait period for government funded benefits a plethora of immigration problems would disappear.

Basil
21st Dec 2013, 15:19
Quote:
Lon, you're thinking of 'toros'
Probably, both full of bullshit.
Top rate response :ok:
Rather better than HMO can usually manage at PMQs.

G&T ice n slice
21st Dec 2013, 15:42
I had problems getting into the UK earlier this year with only that and no passport

I did that one time coming over via the chunnel, HM Immigration man looked at it and said with a world-weary sigh "next time, please bring your passport sir" & waved me through.

I acvtually felt quite guilty about it...

alicopter
21st Dec 2013, 15:42
Quote Ali .... it's not always a case of British workers not being competitive. I have 2 family members in Britain who were quite happily being competitive, in the building industry, until they were supplanted by arrivals from Poland and other places to the East. Companies have used the E.U. open borders rules to downgrade wages, end of story. Unquote

Exactly, I am fully aware of the british workers being competitive compared to many foreigners, my two kids are half english and doing well, luckily... I was not being clear enough when emphasising that there must be a reason for so many brits being unemployed compared to so many immigrants, mainly with lesser level of qualifications getting most of the work... emphasise that what is to blame is the slack system where the employers can get away with not paying "normal" if not legal wages, taking advantage of people ready to work for peanuts since peanuts is already an upgrade from what they get at home... If there was nobody to pay for cheap poles to have their house repaired or built below market trade prices, poles would go back to Poland and work there. So what does that mean? The whole economy is based on openly practiced fraud, the ones who knowingly underpay undeclared workers, the ones who employ underpaid workers and charging normal or slightly cheaper invoices and getting the work off the good old british builder who cannot compete in these conditions.... So, you cannot complain because you do get, in the end, client or employer the best deal... you pay less. (So you shoot yoursef in the foot) Just like a certain Air Line who charges less but has less charges than Historical Carriers if you see what I mean... And this is all it comes down to. Stop blaming the poor immigrant who takes advantage of the situation, you would probably have done the same thing if you had to feed your family, would you have not be fortunate enough to be born here....
As for me not liking it here, well, if I own a farm in Normandy that has been seven generations in my family, I admit that I was born and raised in the South of France and since my mother is from Sicily, my heart is definitely Mediterranean, hence the difficulty to live under these grey skies.... and finding the fresh food at Morrissons lacking in diversity and taste... I must say, when I posted this first thread, I meant to point to the xenophobic attitude the very second people understand I am foreign, way before I have a chance to criticize whoever or whatever... I have received a quite strict education and I would not dare to agress, discriminate people in the street. I add that I have never have had any problem with british people who know me, on the contrary...

dead_pan
21st Dec 2013, 17:03
"next time, please bring your passport sir"

You weren't perchance blacked-up at the time? Now that would make a good story.

KnC - liked your last :ok:

G&T ice n slice
22nd Dec 2013, 00:44
You weren't perchance blacked-up at the time? Now that would make a good story.

No, but I was driving a brand new top-of-therange Mercedes estate with a sportronic (?) gearbox (hire car) which had 32 Kms on the clock when I picked it up.

I was in my normal attire for long-distance driving of T-shirt, jeans & hiking boots.

HM Customs went over the whole thing with a fine toothed comb since I was a single white scruffy British male in a rather expensive NL-registered car.

I should have complained about racial profiling....

Blacksheep
22nd Dec 2013, 01:33
Our son-in-law works in the family building/fitting out business. They have a strong reputation and a client list that includes some of our Fortune 500 companies. They employ only British time-served and indentured tradesmen. They also have four indentured apprentices. They're not cheap, but top quality companies are prepared to pay for top quality work. The myth of the uncompetitive British worker is just that. A myth.

bosnich71
22nd Dec 2013, 02:56
Gertrude .... " taking projects that have been screwed up by foreign outsourcers and doing them again properly".
I confess to not knowing anything about economics but surely it would be better by not allowing the projects to be screwed up in the first place?

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2013, 11:09
surely it would be better by not allowing the projects to be screwed up in the first place
So you might have thought.

Not better for the likes of me, though, because there's always more money to be made sorting out a mess than there ever was in doing it properly in the first place.

Typically it goes like this:

Client: "You wanna put in a fixed price bid for this job?

Contractor: puts in bid

Client: "Sorry mate, the other guy was waaaaay cheaper"

--------------

Some months later:

Client: "Um, the other guy nearly, but not quite, finished the job before he went bust / we sacked him / whatever. Can you just finish it off for us please?"

Contractor: (after looking at the mess) "Actually, it'd be cheaper for you to throw this away and start again. My original bid still stands."

Client: "No no, not doing that, it just needs finishing off." (Tr: I'd lose face, and my job, if I scrapped what had been done so far.)

Contractor: "Well, I'll give it a go, but it is a bit of a mess, and there isn't any documentation, so there's no way I can give you a fixed price for sorting it out, so it'll have to be T&M."

Client: "Sure, no problem, the project is nearly finished anyway."

And of course the contractor ends up billing far more T&M than his fixed price quote to do it properly in the first place.

(NB this is just how incompetent oursourcing works. The outsourcing company doesn't have to be overseas, it works just as well with local ones.)

bosnich71
22nd Dec 2013, 11:29
Point taken Gertrude, I've known a few who have been sacked as too old, not required etc. but who have then been re-employed at vast cost to the old employers .
Good job the world is run by smart people isn't it ?

Effluent Man
22nd Dec 2013, 20:08
Ali, Despite what my profile says I now live just outside Southwold.It's not possible that they thought that you were from London is it? The DFL's as they are known cause trouble wherever they go and are universally regarded as our very own Bete's Noir.

alicopter
22nd Dec 2013, 21:15
Hi Effluent Man, I too live just outside Southwold and when at home, I shop in the village, especially since most of the meat we buy/eat for the last 38 years is from Hutson's Family Butchers ( well...Mills and Sons since October 2013!!!) and never had a problem before. Anyway, the "discrimination phenomenum" is far from being localised in Southwold... or the beach... I have encountered it in Cromer a few weeks ago when buying crabs in a Seafood shop, in Lowestoft, Norwich... This looks like the new craze around here.... Anyway, I will survive, even if I think it is sad to see it on this scale. As the grand-son of Italian immigrants to France, having lived 3 years as a young kid in Algeria were my family was posted, having travelled, worked and played in many european countries, I think it does not bode well for the future... I just cannot stand racism or discrimination of any kind. Rant over.

alicopter
23rd Dec 2013, 15:58
Just adding an ultimate post, to illustrate my last comments about the economy, being in party based on exploiting immigrants workforce......
Slower immigration could lop 11 percent off UK economy - study | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/12/23/uk-britain-immigration-economy-idUKBRE9BM0AG20131223)
In France we say... "le beurre, l'argent du beurre... et le cul de la cremiere en prime........." ( the butter, the money for it... and as a bonus, the Dairy Lady's bum... or...have your cake and eat it...?!)
:ok:

bosnich71
24th Dec 2013, 02:18
Ali ....If immigration is so vital to the economy of Britain then surely you would agree that it is also vital to other European countries, such as France for example ? And, if this is so,why are the French authorities not doing their best to keep the immigrants who arrive daily in Calais in France ? Why do they continue to aid, abet illegals in their efforts to reach U.K. ?
Another question.How many Immigrants does Reuters think that Britain should allow in to the country, just to keep the economy stable of course. Is there a figure / limit or is it to be open ended ?
In a previous post you accused Britain of not playing to E.U.rules. I was under the impression that 'refugees' were to be offered safety in the first country that they reached that was considered to be safe. Surely France would qualify as one of those countries.

alicopter
24th Dec 2013, 20:18
@<hidden> Reuters is a press agency and do not "think", just report. The Independent National Institute of Economic and Social Research is the study authors... and they are just confirming what I was saying earlier... without this "black market", "parallel ecoconomy", "fraudulent employment", call it as you wish, no growth...it is the only way this country can "keep going"... thing that could not be done in France or most other countries (except may be Italy, well known for it or Germany where immigrants have been a godsend, saving the ageing population retirement pensions) because of much stricter controls. (have you tried to set up business or work undeclared in France?) As mentioned earlier, the French are trying hard to get these Calais UK candidates to regularise their situation but even though the benefits are bigger with the frogs, they know very well they can make it big by cheating the more gullible british people (since the authorities are allowing this black market situation, even if "officialy" they condamn it") But those profiting are few and those suffering are many. This manipulation for economical "profit" has a price, political and social, but hey, who cares? Plus, France has the biggest Birth Rate in Europe, a 92,7% of GDP debt (much much lower than the UK) and no ways of dissimulating it's unemployment figures like the UK has, with Zero hours contracts, job sharing, no identity cards etc... etc... hence the lesser attractivity, plus the language barrier as, as you know most of world pupils learn english at school...

bosnich71
25th Dec 2013, 00:59
Ali .....
Christmas Day here in Melbourne, weather forecast... a top temperature of 31 degrees and sunny.
After the festivities are finished I will return and perhaps get an answer from you as regards my questions.
In the meantime ... Joyeux Noel a vous et a votre famille. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/infopop/icons/icon7.gif

alicopter
25th Dec 2013, 10:46
Hi bosnich71... and a Merry Xmas to you and family, as well as all Ppruners too... 2/8th over Suffolk this morning but temp quite low... Lucky you. Cheers, Ali.