Ditching

[MarcusH]

What is the way to Ditch? I plan on making some trips over water over the next year, so I want to be sure to get this right should I end up in the unfortunate position of having to. I fly a low wing fixed gear aircraft with a tilting canopy. I will of course carry all necessary survival gear as the water can get a little chilly between Ireland where i live and the UK.
We have a chute in the aircraft but my instructor says that he would still land and ditch parallel to the swell rather than come down under the canopy.

My fear wold be when the gear touches the water the plane would probably nose over, trapping the occupants inside upside down unable to open the tilting canopy. Is the risk of injury of using a parachute so severe as to make this the better option?

[Red Chilli]

Hi, does your aircraft not have quick release pins for the canopy? Our Robin DR400 has a couple, you can then jettison the canopy prior to ditching at lowest possible airspeed, stall warner blaring, parallel to swell so the nose leg doesn't hit a large oncoming wave head on, which would not help matters.

Keep a look out for boats there will probably be more than you think and aim for one once gliding.

Not sure on your situation but probably more trouble than it's worth to try and egress with a parachute i.e. get it wrong and you may hit the tail/prop/wing etc. Get the ditching right and the low wing configuration may even float, so you can eat your sandwiches whilst waiting for International Rescue.

Seriously, give thought to an immersion suit, it's the cold and hypothermia that is the real killer. There are numerous long threads on this topic both here and on the Flyer forum.

Cheers

[Cobalt]

We have a chute in the aircraft but my instructor says that he would still land and ditch parallel to the swell rather than come down under the canopy.


If the aircraft is a Cirrus, the one thing you should ditch is the instructor (or at least this particular bad bit of advice).

[subsonicsubic]

I think I agree with your instructor.

The parachute system works in tandem with deformable UC to absorb the load of a chute letdown. IIR, chute landings as sea are inadvisable as the gear provides no cushioning on impact with water.

[flybymike]

We seem to be mixing up canopies and parachutes here.....

[RatherBeFlying]

Wear an immersion suit with a PLB in the pocket.

See EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE - Outdoors Gear, Survival Equipment Review & Survival Information (http://www.equipped.com/) for reviews on liferafts and ditching stories.

[Monocock]

Ive always been given the following advice.

In light winds, stall the aircraft in landing config parallel with the swell. With a decent wind, stall the aircraft into wind.

The rest is in the lap of the gods.

[Shoestring Flyer]

You will in all probability die ffrom hypothermia before any rescue comes anyway so does it really matter which way you comes down.
Landing the aircraft is the least of your problem...surviving the cold Irish sea is the big issue!!
I would do as suggested and have ago at landing parallel with the swell...and pray....!

[A and C]

There is no way that I would jettison the canopy prior to coming to rest on the water, to do so is to remove the crews protection from a 30 KTS wall of water.

Knowing how the DR400 canopy jettison mechanism works I have no fear of it failing to work when required........... It is not like a PA28 door that can be jammed by airframe distortion if you fail to unlatch it before impact.

[vjmehra]

You can probably track down this guy, I believe he is a member of COPA:


Pilot Uses Airplane Parachute After Engine Quits Over Bahamas | Autopia | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/01/pilot-uses-airplane-parachute-after-engine-quits-over-bahamas/)


I'm sure he (or someone else from COPA) will be best placed to advise you (assuming you are flying a Cirrus, although even if not probably not the worst place to ask for advice).

[packo1848]

Safety Sense Leaflet 21: Ditching | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1175)

Not a bad read on the subject, I made sure I read it through several times before crossing the channel last year.

[The Old Fat One]

I'm not a pilot, so I'll let others advise you how you put your bird in the water...

However, I was (past tense) a fully qualified survival instructor, who supervised ditching drills for many years. I also conducted (as part of my training) all sorts of water entry scenarios (including night drills in a storm).

So my advice is...

Don't ditch. And if you must...make sure your will is up to date.

Seriously, if you ditch in any thing but the most benign conditions, most of you will die.

Knowing what to do is very little use, unless you have practiced it, frequently, and in realistic conditions.

In calm, warm water, without any sort of injury, and with easy exit and flotation options, with help close at hand, you might make it.

Now start adding in the problems...

Can you get out of your wreckage and in the water...no. You die.
Are you injured or in shock...yes. You die.
Can you float..no. You die
Is the water cold? Yes. You die.
...but I am wearing a correctly fitted water survival suit?? Really, are you. :hmm: But if you are, You'll die slowly.
Is the water rough...yes, you'll get seasick in minutes and you will want to die.

Enough...you get my point.

So

Don't fly over water unless you have a compelling reason.
Fly at a gliding height to reach land.
If you are out of reach of land, have your survival kit on!!
Practice getting out of the aircraft with your survival kit on.
Ensure you get a mayday out.
Ditch near a ship
Forget about food and water...you will be dead long before these become an issue.
But do ensure you are fed and fully hydrated before you fly.

My best mate flys low over the sea in a microlight. I've told him till I'm blue in the face if his engine stops it's game over. End of story

[Croqueteer]

:ooh:If you survive the ditching (and many have) a plb is a must, and ideally an immersion suit, and that's a must in winter. I say this after 10 years on Shacks, with a lot of SAR.

[Pace]

Old Fat one

Good advice! The sea can look very calm and the little white caps quite pretty from 2000 to 3000 feet up. A totally different picture when you are about to land into what looks like a brick wall of 20 foot waves!

Never fly without an out springs to mind otherwise you are playing Russian roulette. total reliance on a piston engine with 100s of bits spinning around is Russian Roulette.

Only fly on dead calm days over water on the way down open the door and wedge it open with a coat or pillow as in the water you may find the water pressure keeps the door firmly shut.
Carry a mini axe so you can smash your way out through the windows?

As someone who's hobby is Scuba diving I think us pilots are miles away from the reality of ditching comfortable in our warm cosy cockpits with ocean in all directions reassuring ourselves with statistics.
We have all done it and got away with it but its funny how the engine always seems rough over water :E

But ??? take a twin :ok:

Pace

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I tried ditching a number of years ago in a helicopter, and believe me it seriously sucked.


We went from big twin engine IFR fully auto-piloted helicopter to a full on survival fight in a very short time.


By far the biggest shock was that we rolled on impact, the aircraft filled in seconds and the temperature was horrendous. I remember hanging upside down in my seat, desperately trying not to gasp in the cold shock at the same time as trying to get my emergency exit to work. It didn't and I went out through one of the other exits. Everyone on board had some problems with hypothermia before were were picked up, and it was August.


Despite all the annual training and preparation all the drills went straight to rat s###. I regularly read theories on here from people who have either never tried ditching, or think they know how it will go. Go get some proper training, you should never need it, but if you do it will be worth every penny.


SND

[Dave Wilson]

Much respect to those that have survived a ditching. As OFO says, it's OK pontificating about what to do but the reality is going to be very different. That's not to say you shouldn't prepare obviously.

As an aside though, as a kid (therefore not covered in as much fat as I am now...) we use to swim in the North Sea up the Whitby area all day on and off from April onwards. How come we never suffered from anything cold related? Is the water warmer nearer the shore?

[Pace]

Dave

I can remember Scuba Diving under a frozen lake. we dug a hole in the ice which was thick enough to stand on and all I was wearing was a full wet suit not a dry suit!
All was fine until the suit tore under the armpit the shock was horrendous and that was on a limited exposed body!
I do not know how they work out the surveil rate times and am sure some will last longer than others.
warm seas you have the problem of sharks fine as long as you stay reasonably still having done a Shark feed off the Bahamas I love the critters :ok:and have met and swam with them many times as well as filming them so they do not hold the fear I would have of ditching in freezing water in the North Atlantic

Pace

[Dave Wilson]

I remember there were three phases to getting into the North Sea in April wearing only trunks. The first was wading in up to thigh level which was teeth shatteringly cold. Then there was the first slap of a wave against the gonads which made you gasp and look around at your pals to see if anyone else had anything but a stoney look of resolution on their faces. Then there was the 'men only' let's just go for it dive from a standing position which literally did take the breath away. After that it was fine, in fact it was colder to stand with your shoulders exposed to the air than it was to keep everything but the head underwater.

Then we used to watch helicopters with men in survival suits and dinghies fly over just in case they came down in the same bit of water that me and my mates spent hours in wearing just trunks. Never figured it out.

[Pace]

It really depends on how cold the sea was ? The body looses heat quickly and then starts to shut down non essential areas to protect the heat in vital organs
Hypothermia then sets in brain processes start to slow etc
My guess is either the water was not as cold as you thought or you were not there for as long as you thought ? When you start uncontrollably shaking your in danger

Pace

[Whopity]

Ditch near a ship Or better still, land on it!

[Dave Wilson]

When you start uncontrollably shaking your in danger

April in Whitby you're doing that before you get in!

[MarcusH]

I am afraid that I am not flying a Cirrus, but a Microlight Eurostar type. I would definitely wear a survival suit and PLB and handheld Radio!

As for landing on a ship, I don't think I would have the skill yet but watch this!
Extreme small plane landing on a ship at sea - YouTube

I am going to see if I can go on a course as has been suggested I would probably never need it but I would feel very foolish if I didn't do one and the donkey was to stop half way across.

I know that people can survive this, such as this man a few years ago Rowers Rescue Pilot from Plane Crash in Irish Sea - YouTube

[Pace]

He survived that because the Sea was relatively calm and his aircraft a very slow flying type which into wind would have settled with hardly any forward motion.
The amount of times I have crossed to Northern Ireland in twins and jets and seen singles crossing over heavy seas with whitecaps and worse is horrifying even heard one with a badly misfiring engine trying to make it to Liverpool. luckily he made it.

it all depends on what level of risk you are prepared to take

Pace

[MarcusH]

I would prefer not to take any risk, or at least weigh all the odds in my favour. A twin would be great but not a runner for now. The Eurostar or bristell have slow stall speeds, would these be slow enough?

[AirborneAgain]

I've read (for the moment I don't have the reference) that statistics show that the survivability of light aircraft ditchings is quite good.

In fact so good that if you have to make an emergency landing in wooded terrain with little open ground but many lakes (such as you commonly find in Scandinavia), you should ditch the aircraft in a lake rather than take it down into the trees.

Surviving after a successful ditching at sea is of course a different matter entirely...

[500ft]

I found this interesting when I read it a while back

EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditching Myths Torpedoed! (http://www.equipped.org/ditchingmyths.htm)

[Pace]

500ft

What a load of rubbish that article is. Yes of course a ditching is survivable! You put down into a long straight stretch of river and you have a giant runway to make sure the landing is spot on.
These guys seem to discount everything to make their argument one crossing long stretches of water!!!

survivable if one of four occupants lives etc.:ugh:

I did not think we were talking about landing near the edge of a lake or river but crossing the open sea.

He discounts ferry flights as not in the realm of the PPLs but what is the difference crossing the Irish sea or a ferry if the engine goes bang other than the time taken to get to you?

If you land in the middle of winter into a sea with waves the size of barn doors wearing a T shirt your chances of survival are small Yet many pilots fly like that.

i am sure we would not have much sympathy for someone who went mountain hiking in winter with summer clothes and this is the crux.

if you do anything which carries risk you owe it to yourself and more important to your passengers to minimise those risks as much as possible.

don't fly long distance over heavy seas where you cannot glide clear.

Don't set off near the evening when its likely to get dark.(many do)

Carry a life raft with a locator and life jackets! Have a plan how to get the life raft out?

immersion suits?

Ideally be on radar or at least talking to someone giving position reports

fly as high as you can.

change tanks before leaving the shore and make sure everything is working properly.

Carry something to smash your way out if need be a mini firemen axe.

open the door before hitting the water and jam it with a coat or some other item so pressure of water does not keep it jammed shut.

I am sure others can think of loads of tips i have missed but its really no different to going skiing be prepared for the worst and with the equipment you carry.

Pace

[AirborneAgain]

Rubbish in what sense? The article points to clear statistical evidence, not myths and emotions. That's what risk management is all about, isn't it?

I no way does it contradict (in fact, it reinforces) the fact that the biggest problem is surviving in the sea outside the aircraft until you get rescued.

[Pace]

The article points to clear statistical evidence, not myths and emotions. That's what risk management is all about, isn't it?

Selective clear statistical evidence to support an argument :ok: I suppose you believe all you read in the press too like tens of thousands were going to die of bird flu a few years back.
statistics are used in every walk of life to support a case or argument and most are selective statistics

its not rocket science! Pilots fly single pistons over water some long distance.
the chances of loosing the engine are small but there is a chance.
A water landing is perfectly feasible whether you survive that landing will depend on precautions you take and the sort of water and conditions you fly over.

Pace

[AirborneAgain]

What are we arguing about, really? It seems that although you claim that the article is rubbish, you agree with its major points.

And could we please skip the ad-hominem arguments?

[Pace]

A

I have done some ferry work but never in singles but have friends who do.
They are a lot braver than I am.
One was flying a Cessna single over the north Atlantic in IMC! He had a problem with fuel transfer from the ferry tank and in IMC spiralled down to break cloud some 400 feet ABSL.
He was extremely lucky in the fact that right below him was the only fishing boat in 100 miles. He survived the landing although told me the impact was much more severe than he expected and he had an immersion suit.
the fishing boat picked him up and he spent two weeks working his way on the fishing boat before being returned.
As has been said before the aircraft does not know its over water only the pilot does.
what I do not like in that article is how they discount some statistics and accept others to push a point that does not mean I do not agree with the bones of what they are saying.

pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

In fact so good that if you have to make an emergency landing in wooded terrain with little open ground but many lakes (such as you commonly find in Scandinavia), you should ditch the aircraft in a lake rather than take it down into the trees.
I've heard the opposite from an instructor in BC - "if he fan stops we're going for the trees - people do strange things in cold water when their brains stop working, like trying to swim into the back of the plane".

[AirborneAgain]

I've heard the opposite from an instructor in BC - "if he fan stops we're going for the trees - people do strange things in cold water when their brains stop working, like trying to swim into the back of the plane".

Well... I've not done a study on this, but I've read several accident investigation reports where aircraft have crashed into trees and it is not encouraging reading.

Especially not with spruce or pine forests. First you smash into a stiff trunk one metre (3 ft) in diameter, then you fall 30 m (100 ft) to the ground. I would prefer ditching in a nearby lake or river any day.

Hypotermia is a real survival risk, of course, but it doesn't set in so quickly that it would affect your egress from the aircraft.

[Pace]

AA

It would not with our slimmer healthier brothers but the shock of the cold can stop you breathing or even cause a heart attack with our plumper less healthy pilots.
But yes I too faced with landing in a forest would take a smooth lake or river anytime equally knowing that a short swim or maybe even standing up on the bottom and wading to the shore would see me safe.
A bit different to being 100-200 miles from land landing in a sea with 20 foot waves and freezing water :{

Pace

[Fantome]

Historical note - The Wright J5 engine was a marvel of reliability in it's day.
In 1927 it got Lindbergh from New York to Paris without a cough or a splutter.

And in 1928 three of them powered the Fokker FVIII/3M with Kingsford Smith, Ulm, Warner and Lyon across the Pacific from Oakland to Brisbane.

The great engine man of the Wright Corporation who saw to the health of every donk was revered by many many airmen and women. Cecil Maidment (known as 'Doc'), was his name.

WIKI -

On 19 July 1909, Herbert Latham took off from Cap Blanc-Nez, very near Sangatte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangatte),[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Latham#cite_note-Flight_1909_07_24_p442-28) but after only 8 miles (13 km) his Antoinette IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoinette_IV) suffered engine failure and Latham had to ditch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_landing#In_distress) in the Channel, thereby performing the world's first landing of an aircraft on the sea. The undamaged fuselage remained afloat, so he lit a cigarette and awaited rescue by the French torpedo-destroyer Harpon that was following.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Latham#cite_note-Walsh.2C_pp._93-97-29) After recovery of the aircraft, the engine was examined and a stray piece of wire was found inside the engine.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Latham#cite_note-Flight_1951_03_30_p366-19) Levavasseur stated that the misfire was caused by this wire.[3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Latham#cite_note-Flight_1909_07_24_p441-30)

A widely circulated photo of Latham astride his ditched plane, casually smoking a fag while awaiting rescue, is one of that era's most evocative.

Apologies for this digression from the actual subject under discussion.
There is a well known ferry pilot based at Bankstown who has ditched several times. He has had rafts fail to inflate. He believes something like one in ten
are defective.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

the shock of the cold can stop you breathing
When I fell into cold water off a boat I couldn't breathe for a while. It was just as well that the rescue boat was feet away and pulled me out within seconds.

[TipVortices]

At least the water here wan't so cold:

http://cdn1.therepublic.com/smedia/5/8/581130d4d4954ffabce9fe9889bffc39/inline_23737424842.jpg
In this Dec. 11, 2013 photo provided by pilot Josh Lang, a single-engine plane is shown in waters off the island of Molokai following a crash shortly after takeoff toward Honolulu, Hawaii. One passenger died, eight other survived, including the pilot. The pilot of the plane that crashed off Molokai said Wednesday Dec. 18, 2013, he broadcast a mayday call once he realized he wouldn't be able to sustain a glide long enough to reach land after his engine lost power. (AP Photo/Josh Lang)

The wreckage of a plane that crashed off Molokai has arrived in Honolulu.

Makani Kai Air owner Richard Schuman said Thursday that a salvage dive team was able to recover the plane's single engine.

The engine lost power soon after the plane took off from Kalaupapa last week, forcing a water landing. Hawaii Health Director Loretta Fuddy was a passenger and the only fatality of the nine people onboard.

PHOTO: In this Dec. 11, 2013 photo provided by pilot Josh Lang, a single-engine plane is shown in waters off the island of Molokai following a crash shortly after takeoff toward Honolulu, Hawaii. One passenger died, eight other survived, including the pilot. The pilot of the plane that crashed off Molokai said Wednesday Dec. 18, 2013, he broadcast a mayday call once he realized he wouldn't be able to sustain a glide long enough to reach land after his engine lost power. (AP Photo/Josh Lang)In this Dec. 11, 2013 photo provided by pilot Josh Lang, a single-engine plane is shown in waters off the island of Molokai following a crash shortly after takeoff toward Honolulu, Hawaii. One passenger died, eight other survived, including the pilot. The pilot of the plane that crashed off Molokai said Wednesday Dec. 18, 2013, he broadcast a mayday call once he realized he wouldn't be able to sustain a glide long enough to reach land after his engine lost power. (AP Photo/Josh Lang)
The wreckage and the engine arrived in Honolulu on a ship Wednesday night, Schuman said.

The NTSB initially believed the plane couldn't be recovered but it was eventually spotted off the north shore of Molokai.

The airplane was found in 70 to 75 feet of water, said NTSB spokesman Eric Weiss. Investigators reported the engine as being in "remarkably good condition," Weiss said.

The engine was hosed down with fresh water and boxed up for delivery to the manufacturer, Pratt & Whitney Canada, in Montreal, where it will be taken apart for analysis.

The rest of aircraft will be kept at a secure location on Oahu, Weiss said.

Engine, wreckage of plane that crashed off Molokai recovered, transported via ship to Honolulu (12/19/13 11:29 pm) (http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/581130d4d4954ffabce9fe9889bffc39/HI--Hawaii-Plane-Crash)

[vabsie]

"Keep a look out for boats there will probably be more than you think and aim for one once gliding."

Or perhaps aim for next / close to it ;)

[Romeo Tango]

An extract from "Bring Back my Stringbag"
by Lord Kilbracken

Ditching a Swordfish in the North Atlantic

We are two days' steaming from Halifax, about 500 miles, but haven't, yet reached the warmer waters of the Gulf Stream The convoy has held a north-westerly course at twelve knots, its maximum speed, since the U-boat fix was established, so its position is now south-southwest of us, some, fifty-five miles distant. Jake plotted our course using an estimated windspeed and direction, which we will check when it gets light enough. With a following wind, it will take about half an hour to reach our rectangle, which we are to spend an hour searching, covering some 1200 square miles. As we fly southwards the sky slowly brightens, white then steely blue without a cloud. One by one the stars outshone, the sea its unending expanse of emptiness. We see no sign of Flash, already out of sight to eastward.

We start our search at 0811, as the sun bursts from the ocean. Our flight plan calls for a series of parallel tracks thirteen miles apart. We cannot be sure of sighting a U-boat, even in such perfect visibility, at a range greater than seven miles, and this allows a one-mile overlap. As always hoping for that slim grey shape low on the water ahead of us. But we sight no enemy and at 0911 turn for home. With the headwind it will take us twice as long as the outward leg but by 1015 we should be safely back on board.

And then, within ten minutes, three amazing events. First near the limit of visibility, I see what appears to be., unless an apparition, a solitary vessel which a moment later I make out to be a sailing ship. Way out in the Atlantic! With U-boats known to be around!

- Jesus, boys, there's a sailing ship ahead of us!

- You're crazy, you're bloody seeing things.

- Must be the Marie Celeste, sir.

I tell them to take a look then, pointing a gloved hand fine on the port bow, my left arm out of the cockpit into the slip, lake lifts his binoculars. Moments of disbelief.

- By Jesus you're right, John. A three-masted schooner, bare poles, seems to be stationary. What the hell's she doing?

- Shall we have a look, sir?

- You bet we'll have a look.

In all my Atlantic patrols, this was the only time I sighted the smallest sign of human life, from the time I left the, convoy till my return. Always the empty ocean. Now this chance. vessel, located almost precisely where her presence would, so soon be indispensable if our lives were to be saved, a dozen miles ahead of us I alter course fifteen degrees to bring us directly over her. Five minutes later, Charlie's voice on the intercom.

- Hey, it's getting crowded. Isn't that a Swordfish, sir? Away on the starboard beam?

Again Jake swings his glasses (the only pair between us).

- It's a Stringbag all right. Must be, Flash and Stan. Now there's dead reckoning for you.

A remarkable coincidence or else damned fine flying. After nearly two hours of DR navigation over an empty sea with no navigational aids, Flash and I are returning abeam of each other on convergent courses, now some twelve miles distant at the extreme limit of visibility, exactly as ordered by the flight plan. Either we are both within a mile or two of our correct positions, or else we, have both run up precisely the same aggregate error. And this fortuitous chance sighting, in addition to the other, would be needed to save our lives.

The third event in this sequence, three minutes later. My beloved Peggy, my beautiful Pegasus M, the most trusted engine in the service, decides at this moment she's taken us far enough. A brief splutter, then perfect and terrible silence.

To throttle back a Stringbag at safe height so that the engine is only idling; to revel in the sudden silence, hear the airstream -whistling in the struts; to push down the nose till she is diving earthwards at 140 or more, then ease back on the stick till you are sedately soaring not far from the stall at under sixty, losing height hardly perceptibly; to soar and bank like a glider among the clouds - these wore among the darling pleasures of flying. It isn't so darling when sudden absence of power has been totally involuntary and there is now only the Atlantic 1500 feet below.

Not that we were yet for a single moment seriously apprehensive, not in fear of death. There was a hope I'd be able to coax MY Peggy to life again. If I couldn't, a Stringbag was the easiest and safest landplane to put down in the drink and would float for several minutes. Our Mae Wests in themselves wouldn't be much use, the water would be too cold, but we had our four dinghies and would at once break radio silence to send a mayday. And there anyway by such a fantastic stroke of luck was this sailing boat, now much closer, just waiting to pick us up. Nothing to be alarmed about. But one by one these doors to safety closed on us.

Holding her directly towards the schooner in the shallowest possible glide, I jiggled the throttle, played with the mixture control, tried every trick I knew to get a spark from her. To no avail. Now came Charlie's laconic voice on the intercom.

- ******* radio, sir. Packed up.

Couldn't believe it! Engine and radio packing up together I Never before had Charlie failed to establish instant contact at such close range. Well thank God for the schooner. I dived through 300 precious feet, throttle wide open, then closed, then open again, hoping increased revs would do it. Silence.

- OK, I'm going to fire all eight rockets. Charlie, keep trying.

I wanted to lighten the plane; and the rocket projectiles made such a series of screeches that the schooner couldn't help but hear them if by some impossible chance she hadn't sighted us. I dipped our nose and then fired them off in pairs, aiming slightly ahead of her - they dropped well short as I knew they would. Then having reached 150 feet I gave up trying with the engine and concentrated on ditching.

We were already headed upwind so I could continue straight ahead. At the last moment I hauled back all the way on the stick so that the tail dropped and was first to strike the sea. My forward speed over the water must have been no more than a mere thirty knots-on impact. Settle down nice and gently.

Strange as it now seems we were all in the highest spirits. My only minor worry apart from losing a valuable aircraft was that the big dinghy hadn't ejected and inflated automatically as it was supposed to do on ditching. However there was a failsafe manual release in the upper mainplane above me. Unclipping my parachute and leaving it with my one-man dinghy in the cockpit, I clambered up to work it, not even getting my feet wet. I pulled the cable release and nothing whatever happened. First twinge of anxiety. I stayed on the wing pulling and tugging that goddamn cable till the Stringbag sank under me - in 18,000 feet of water.

Only, at this instant did we begin to realise things weren't too good and five minutes later we were sure of it. Jake and Charlie were already in the ocean, shouting, come on in, it's lovely. It was lovely for thirty seconds. Till we were in it we didn't realise what a heavy swell was running, how terribly cold the water. We hadn't reached the Gulf Stream and it wasn't far from freezing. Much worse, Jake's one-man dinghy had been forced forward on impact and he hadn't been able to reach it, whilst mine had sunk with the plane. We just had Charlie's; and three into one won't go.

So we all three clung on, hoisting ourselves as best we could from the water but immersed from the belly down. No more joking. The coldness with terrible speed took hold of us. And lake and Charlie were soon being violently seasick. Yes, you can sure as hell get seasick clinging to a dinghy in that swell, even though you've never been bothered by it in the heaviest weather on shipboard. But, at least we knew it was for only a few minutes. The schooner had finally been two or three miles distant, though to us she was now out of sight with the heavy swell running.

Just one thing we didn't know, she hadn't seen us. Was quite unaware of our existence, our growingly precarious existence.

As we discovered later, she was a fishing vessel, Kasagra, out of Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, a port not far from Halifax. She had her boats and nets out to northward, taking in the nights catch, and we had approached thoughtlessly from the south. Everyone hard at work, no lookout set, no idling crewman to see or hear us, not even those screaming rockets. So now our lives depended on the crew of the other Stringbag, trained to keep a continual systematic sweeping of the ocean. But they were young and inexperienced. Had they seen us go in, had they seen us at all? We knew within minutes as Flash Parkin roared low over us.

We owe our lives to him. He at once summed up the situation. If we had been ensconced in the large dinghy with full supplies, as he must have expected to find, no flap whatsoever. But we were half immersed in the water - we had about an hour to live unless picked up - and this crazy boat fishing. No way he could drop a dinghy to us but he could signal Kasagra to come on over and quickly. His observer, Stan Holness, got working with the Aldis lamp. it now transpired that none of the fishermen was versed in the Morse code. Thinking Stan wished to establish their nationality, they found an outsize Red Ensign, stretched it out on the -deck. No, no, no. Flash now began a series of dives on our position, returned to Kasagra, waggled his wings, returned again to our position, dropped smoke markers, waggling his wings, firing red Very lights.

Meantime the three of us in increasingly serious trouble. The sea was quickly claiming us. Every ounce of energy, a our concentration, devoted to that dinghy, four-foot by two-foot, to keeping hold of it and we were losing inch by inch. Soon it was only with our hands, we were immersed from the armpits down, then from the shoulders.

A few minutes later I felt myself at the limit of endurance. I remember telling the others I couldn't hold on any longer, that it didn't seem worth the effort. And they both looked back in silence. I guess they were feeling something of the same but I was the only one who said it. The physical exertion needed was just becoming too great. Death was so near that it was easy, the easy way out, almost welcome, certainly acceptable. And very soon, had nothing intervened, I'd have let go, drifted a few yards, then slipped quietly and not ungratefully into and under the swell.

But at just this minute: 'Look, look, oh Jesus!' And there, seen through the fine spray blowing from the swell's crest, now for the first time were the tops of the three bare masts, rising and falling from view as Kasagra rose and fell with the waves. Soon the whole vessel. She drew near and put down a boat for Us.

Afterwards we could all remember this rowing boat heading. for us. Coming alongside. Strong arms reaching down for us. Beyond that point, for all of us, oblivion. We had all held on, because we had to, far beyond our natural strength, kept going those last ten minutes (in my, case anyway) only by the sudden knowledge that rescue was at hand. The instant it was no longer necessary, no longer vital, we all three lost consciousness, those arms around us, before even being lifted in to the rowing boat. We had been fifty-one minutes in the water by Stan's stop watch.

[Pace]

Romeo Tango

I think this report gives a reality to what is miles away from the snug pontificating in front of a computer as well as miles away from a snug and warm cockpit 2-3000 feet above a flat looking sea with pretty whitecaps.
If you are going to fly especially piston singles over the sea safeguard yourself as much as possible and do not play Russian Roulette.

Go into a room with a number of exits and there is a way out! Go into a room with no exits and your only door slams locked and you are stuck.
Or never do anything in aviation without an out!!!

Pace

[Romeo Tango]

It is sometimes interesting to go to the edge .... but one needs to understand the edge one is dealing with.

[Pace]

One favourite saying of mine is " If you never push the boundaries you will never find what lies beyond ! ". So true in every field of life :) but in pushing those boundaries make sure the beyond is something you are prepared for as the beyond which is relatively unknown might be something which is more than you can handle.

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I think Old Fat One has it. I used to regularly fly BPL - IOM in a fixed gear single; I wouldn't do it now. If the engine fails, you are almost certainly going to die. Maybe I'm older and wiser or just seen a bit more over the decades of aviating.

I can't rationalise flying single engine water these days. It goes against my aviation principle of 'always having an out'. If the engine fails over land I'm reasonably confident of living, even maybe walking away. I just can't trust my life to the bag of mechanical bits that comprise an engine and fuel system, knowing that if it fails (and they do as I know from experience!) I'll die.

[Romeo Tango]

"Almost certainly" going to die is a bit strong. Even "probably" is too much. I think "quite likely" covers it. If you are on the ball, have an ELT and a good dingy it is could be "maybe".

Anyway, as has been done to death in another thread, if you remember to maintain your engine and put fuel in it, it is very unlikely to let you down.

I fly SE in all weathers and times of day over water and expect to die in bed.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

if you remember to maintain your engine and put fuel in it, it is very unlikely to let you down.

'Very unlikely to fail' doesn't cut it in my book when there is no 'out' if it does let go. My experience (both first hand and observed in the experiences of other experienced pilots - all while flying over land, thankfully) is that even the best maintained engines in regular trouble-free use and with plenty of fuel correctly selected can and do (rarely, it's true) fail. But fail they can; be in no doubt of that.

A dingy might help. If you've room for one in the aircraft you fly.

[funfly]

I am surprised that no-one has told you to make a check list.
I made a check list to suit my own aircraft for when I was over the sea.
I assumed that should an engine fail, I would be at a sensible height over the water and would therefore have quite a few minutes before getting down to ditching level.
Making the list was good in itself as it made me think specific to my own aircraft.
After basic engine failure checks I listed in order the things that might get muddled. Things like get your position from the GPS and write it down, call mayday then remove headset and get the rubber helmet of the wetsuit on. Get the rubber gloves on. Make sure the location beacon is handy and clipped to you not the aircraft, deal with passenger, make sure the door is unlatched.
I can't remember all the things but I know that there would be plenty of time between cruising height and water level to do things methodically.
Getting down to water level will be the easy bit it is entering the water that it is all about. Your screen will likely come in and you may have problems getting out. If you prepare yourself for the cold shock and an upside down position you will be less surprised when it happens. Remember your engine will very likely try to take the craft down so getting out is important.
I have never been impressed by inflatable dinghies unless they get outside by themselves, can you imaging trying to heave one from the back seat of a PA28 for example and then it not being in the way when you try to get out. A full immersion suit is the only way.
So among your book of checklists have a 'ditching' checklist.

Off to Jersey...

http://www.funfly.co.uk/images/fly.jpg

[Romeo Tango]

You can't say there always has to be an 'out'. As soon as you are born you are always taking some sort of unavoidable risk, it simply depends what risk you are able/want to accept.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Pace]

Funfly

Very sensible advice! Noted the comment on getting the life raft out! In all the shock and confusion that is a very relevant point!
I mentioned jamming the door open in the glide down as water pressure can literally lock you in! Maybe part of that checklist should be jamming the door with the life raft so the door is kept open and the life raft the first thing out followed by the pilot/passengers (hardly discussed) hanging onto it :ok:

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

You can't say there always has to be an 'out'.

I can.

In aviation, which is what we're talking about, you should always have an 'out' for foreseeable possible happenings. Obviously if a wing falls off without pilot provocation it just wasn't your day, and there wasn't anything you could have done about it except not fly.

But wings don't just 'fall off'. Perfectly well maintained engines can, and do, fail however. Which is why we train for it happening.

Setting off across the sea behind a single engine is a deliberate aviation decision for which there is no 'out' if the engine fails. Many pilots are happy with that. I used to be and often did it.

I'm not now as I can no longer rationalise betting my life on the engine not failing (every egg in one basket - game over if it doesn't pay off), even though the odds are very greatly that it will continue to run just fine.

[Romeo Tango]

SSD

Yes, well, you are right (mostly). But I reserve the right to take a calculated risk from time to time.

[Dave Wilson]

This is what it comes down to, one person's calculated risk isn't the same as anothers. We could discuss this until the cows come home but at the end of the day, you are commander of the aircraft and the risk you are willing to take is entirely appropriate for you. It may not be appropriate for someone else but then they are not the commander of your aircraft.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Very true! In my case I am the same person who once upon a time was OK with a BPL - IOM crossing in a SEP, but today is not.

It's all down as to whether you rationalise the risk as acceptable, or not. I have absolutely no problem at all about pilots who do rationalise it as acceptable. I used to be one!

[Dave Wilson]

I can fully understand not wanting to be any place other than at least 5,000 ft above Blackpool so good call on your part...:)

[Pace]

Dave

I fully understand your right to determine the level of risk you are prepared to take and as other posters I used to do water crossings in singles myself until I regularly flew twins! After that and a few engine problems I started seeing water crossings in a single in a different light!
One question? While your prepared to take that risk for yourself what do you do with passengers take that risk decision for them too ?

Pace

[Dave Wilson]

Pace

I've never crossed water with anything other than qualified pilots on board where we have discussed the risk and done a drill for a possible ditching. Would I take non pilot pax? No. Having said that I would have no qualms about doing Dover- Cap GN at 6,000 or above (6,500 being class A of course at that point) with non pilot pax as that's within a glide of land/beach.

Edit: As an aside, I did a bit of a Scotland tour in May with a flying buddy of mine in a 28. The last leg was Leuchars-Waddington which he flew. The leg from Anstruther-Dunbar across the Firth is 15 nm, only 2 miles less than Dover-Cap GN. Taking off from Leuchars we were only at around 2,000 and climbing when we crossed the coast and never gave it a second thought as it was 'just' an estuary.

[Romeo Tango]

To each their own as you say.

I have crossed the Atlantic 5 and a half times in my Robin along with various other oceans. I think it is a good enough risk to do occasionally.

I still expect to die in bed.

[Jonzarno]

It's the idea of the "half" crossing that would worry me.... :p

[Pace]

Dave

Crossing the channel at Dover is not such a big deal because of the volume of boats and ships
Your biggest danger is probably being run over by one not looking :ok:
I am more talking about longer crossing over more inhospitable and deserted seas!
I have done limited ferry work always multi and jet never single
When you see the vast expanse of ocean between the UK and Iceland the thought of some guy way below trundling along at 90 kts in a small piston is mind boggling! They are Either very brave or very stupid or both :E but I do admire them

Pace

[Romeo Tango]

They are Either very brave or very stupid or both

One does not have to be either. I have had my aircraft for 30 years, I look after and trust it. Of course one has to give that sort of flying the respect it deserves, you really cannot afford any mistakes.

I have had great experiences and seen some amazing things between Stornoway and Baffin island. Well worth a very very slight chance of death.

[Dave Wilson]

Pace

I've never understood how you can get in a 172 and fly it across the ocean, or indeed do as RT has done and take his Robin. However as he says, each to their own.

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

Surprised no-one has mentioned route selection. The OP's address shows as Dublin, planning to fly to UK: if I were him (and having taken all the other sound advice on kit etc), I'd be heading north for the shortest possible crossing of the North Channel - something I've done frequently. Look for a day with min Xwind to planned track: in event of engine failure, crosswind eats height if you're trying to glide on or turn back!. Gain as much height as poss before coasting out (dont even go if cloudbase prevents this). And in the planning stage, calculate where the theoretical turnback point lies bearing in mind engine out glide angle and wind AT THE LEVELS PLANNED and in descent. Remember, the 'glide' perfroamnce of a light aircraft changes dramatically from idling, which we all practice on PFLs, to prop stopped. Trust me, I experienced it and found it to be a 'whole nother country'!:O

[Pace]

There is risk taking and risk management probably years back I risk took now I hope I am more leaning to risk management ;) and yes the management side does mean planning for a shorter crossing even if a longer route!
IMO especially on ferries it's up to the pilot the level of risk one takes as you will not hurt anyone but yourself but when it involves inexperienced passengers then you cannot take risk decisions for them you can however manage risk for them.

Pace