Cadetships some experience vs no experience

[Chris the Robot]

I am looking to consider applying for a number of established cadet programmes within the industry over the next few years once I have got enough experience in my current role (change/project management) to make it a viable "back-up" plus enough savings to cover living expenses. There is a bit of a dilemma though, whether or not to attempt to gain gliding/PPL experience in the meantime.

I am aware that with regard to the BA FPP, the consensus would appear to be that about 300 hours is the maximum they would allow someone to start with. West Atlantic require a PPL (min 50 hours) and ideally a Night rating. Whilst they are no doubt very different, both appear to have excellent reputations and don't require a prospective cadet to have vast sums of money (I'd say both would realistically be £10-15k, though I am aware BA will guarantee more than the basic £84k).

Next up is the Aer Lingus scheme, which seems to have differed slightly over the previous two intakes (from what I can tell at least £35k would be a safe bet).

Beyond these are the likes of Monarch, CityFlyer, Easyjet etc. which I reckon require around £90k minimum to be safe.

I reckon I could get the sums together for BA/West Atlantic in around 3 years (22 now), beyond that I'd probably have enough experience in my current role to become a subcontractor in my current firm, hence the rest I reckon I could go for at around 28 (aware a lot can change in 5+ years though). Only concern is that the PPL experience required for West Atlantic might not be looked upon favourably by some of the other airlines. Plus, unless I'd do around 20 hours/annum bare minimum, I'd probably have wasted £10k, which I don't imagine would be easy to explain away in an interview if asked.

Other option is if I were to fail a couple of times in West Atlantic assessments would be to pontentially try and instruct part-time around current role and gradually build both a network and licences (effectively a slightly slower version of "modular") until I could go for maybe a turboprop job or equivalent full-time.

Not eligible for miliatry flying (medical).

Can I please ask for your opinions on these options, also does gliding experience count towards the maximum that airlines would consider? Considering gliding as something fun to get me airborne and potentially make me a better powered-aircraft pilot if I do start (aware that it probably won't contribute anything to an airline cadet application except perhaps "motivation").

I was thinking of gliding just over a year ago but I was finding work rather difficult at the time (ended up relocating to my current role which I much prefer) and wanted to get that sorted out before starting. Should add that I have a total experience of 1 hour Cessna 152 (gained when I was 12) and 1/2 hour Boeing 737 sim, greatly enjoyed both, partly contributing to my decision to pursue a flying career.

[Bealzebub]

The first thing you would need to do is establish your medical fitness by way of a class 1 medical. I know you have raised some concerns on this point in the past, and it is a paramount prerequisite. Without this certificate everything else is irrelevant.

[Always learning]

What consensus do you refer to w.r.t. the 300 hrs for BA FPP? That would certainly be news to a few chaps on the programme with significantly greater than 300 hrs TT. I suspect you've been talking to ex-cadets from the 90s, for which there was such a restriction.

I don't know anyone who would frown on a PPL experience; however, there are plenty who have no experience before starting an airline-tagged cadet course.

[jamesleaman]

The majority of cadetships, albeit the Atlantic Airways one, don't require you to hold a single hour of Flying, let alone a PPL.

From what I've read, your ultimate aim is to get yourself a place on one of this schemes.
From past experience, and many others will tell you, holding a PPL may give you something to relate too during the interview stage, but it's not going to help you pass the aptitude, maths and physics examinations.

My advice would be hold that £7k back, apply for the airline tagged schemes, if your fortunate enough to make it through, great. If not, get your PPL and follow the Atlantic or the modular route!

[Chris the Robot]

Thank you very much for the advice on this thus far.

Regarding the medical side, I am aware I would almost certainly need to go and see an autism specialist before a medical certificate was issued. From what I have read on the CAA and CASA guidance pages they generally base a decision on biographical history/appearance amongst a few other things. From the research I've done I haven't got any history that would raise alarm bells so to speak but I can never be sure of a pass until I go for a medical.

Regarding minimum time, I think I may have been a bit confused with BA. From what I'm aware quite a few others have placed limits in the past, I would imagine many airlines would look at people on a case-by-case basis. With the MPL (though I'm aware that the FPP is still fATPL) becoming more popular I can imagine that the airlines are looking to train people differently to the older methods and there may be fears that lots of solo SEP time may breed "bad" habits.

The recommended approach to West Atlantic seems a good one, I did see on Pilot Jobs Network that for the 2012 intake they appeared to prefer folk under 26, though that appears to have been removed for the 2013 intake, hence I was initially a little concerned about the age side.

Good news is that I reckon I've got a 10-15 year window to consider each scheme as it becomes available. Plenty could change in that time (5 years ago I'd never have dreamt of BA securing loans). I'll try and get into a position which will allow me to start applications in the next year or so. Will potentially look to glide in the meantime for fun.

[Bealzebub]

Slightly confused? My understanding from your previous posts were that you were doing an ICP course as you had been unsuccessful with two wings cadet applications? Sorry this doesn't be appear to be working out as you would have hoped, although presumably it is still early days and you are still in the ground school phase?

The airline partner you have mentioned doesn't charge for type ratings, and six month placements are not salaried in any event. Remuneration during this period comes from a combination of FTO repayments from the bond, and airline expenses. Employment contracts dovetailing from the placements depend on the requirements at that time and the cadets performance during the placement period. This Winter the cadets were offered 9/3 contracts with salary payments spread evenly over 12 months. The previous two years all placements resulted in full time permanent contracts. Your statement doesn't make sense?

There is no doubt that there is a great deal of hard work involved, and any idea that you are simply buying into a career is likely to hit a brick wall of reality very quickly.

Private flying is relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of things, and it would be wise to utilize, experience and enjoy this aspect of flying before writing out the big cheques.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Catalystman - you don't write as somebody who has done well out of education before - I wonder to what extent that's affecting your problems? I've been "back" into education a few times, and the longer the gap, or the lower quality my preceding education had been, the tougher it was. High quality study is something that needs recency, just as much as flying does, in my experience.



Generally: why not do a PPL? It does four things:-

(1) Adds a few more hours to make you marginally more attractive when you hit the job market

(2) Tells YOU if you've really got the passion and aptitude for flying (and hard work!) you THINK you have.

(3) Gets you into a related study habit before hitting the big stuff.

(4) Demonstrates real enthusiasm and commitment.


Particularly because of (2), I'm of the opinion that a PPL for many people contemplating an integrated route may be the best value £7k or so they'll ever spend.

I'd just say that do the PPL with a reasonably professional school and make sure they know you think you're going commercial, so will treat you with the seriousness and rigour that you want to develop.

[Chris the Robot]

I can see how returning to full-time education may be challenging for someone who has got significant work experience, though I imagine the modular route may be easier than integrated in this context. From what I have seen to get onto any CTC course is a considerable achievement because they are more restrictive than other non-tagged integrated schemes (if one could consider CTC to be non-tagged).

The PPL could be good, though sadly won't be affordable for me for a couple of years I imagine (current salary is fairly low but climbs very quickly), so I'll likely go for gliding if I'm to fly straight away.

In some ways, I'm surprised that what I would call "slower modular" isn't discussed more on these forums (Edit, thinking about things the UK simply doesn't have the GA volume of Oz or the 1500 hour rule of the US).

If one cannot make it onto a tagged scheme for any reason, go for initial PPL + Night and potentially Aerobatics. A year or so later CPL + Instructor Rating part-time then teach part-time. When hours are at the point where regional airlines would reasonably be interested go for MEP/IR, being done later it will be more current and renewals will cost less. Spending a longer time over the training will likely enable a greater network to be built. Plus, one keeps working full-time outside of aviation until a decent aviation job appears. I've read of one or two cases but not many. If I can't get into a tagged scheme I'd be tempted to do things that way.