For those of the former MPA persuasion...

[Rossian]

.....tonight at 9PM on Beeb 2 "The Silent War" part 1 of two "Know your enemy".
Seeing our tale from the other side.

The Ancient Mariner

[J.A.F.O.]

Cheers' Rossian

[TomJoad]

Watching now, some very interesting interviews and accounts from those manning the subs. Worth watching on the iPlayer if you miss it.:ok:

[BEagle]

Extremely interesting programme - well worth watching. If you missed it, try to catch it on BBC iPlayer.

When I think that we weren't even allowed to breathe the term 'SOSUS' at RAF Brawdy in the mid-'70s, or to ask what the humourless people at the 'NAVFAC' actually did, it's still a surprise to hear it discussed so openly on TV.

[Rossian]

.....wot Beagle sed.
About the same time as he was at Brawdy I was at St Mawgan. I and all my squadron mates watched in utter disbelief the documentary by Tom Mangold called "The Deep Cold War". It included shots of a Nimrod crew as they tracked a soviet nuc, inside the Ops room at Andoya where on the wall charts you could if you knew see the location of the sensors, and interviews with Mr SACLANT (one admiral Ike Kidd) who was very forthright.

We were not supposed to talk about any of this outside a windowless room in the middle of STM Ops block on pain of death, and as OC that little unit was a black belt in TaeKwonDo it would have been a tad painful. A Sqn Ldr lost his job for talking unguardedly.

And here it was all over the Beeb!! WTF over.

I was living in my own house then and of course all my neighbours were asking "Is that what you do when you go flying at all odd hours?"
"Er ,er, no comment"

It was a very strange time and I can only assume that it was opened up for propaganda purposes, or, because they already had a better system in place.
Who knows? Sure as shot I didn't.

The Ancient Mariner

[Roland Pulfrew]

When I arrived at a secret base in Cornwall to do my first operational conversion, we were advised to watch

the documentary by Tom Mangold called "The Deep Cold War". available in the Unit's video (remember them?) library.

And also to read "Hunt for the Red October" by Tom Clancy as the two best introductions, at an unclassified level :hmm:, that were available to us students. It certainly saved signing all those classified documents out from the registry.

[BEagle]

Not long after I'd had a (second!) occasion to punch off 2 x 230 gall drop tanks from my Hunter, I was having lunch with a colleague in the OM at RAF Brawdy when we were joined by a couple of spooks from the 'biscuit factory' (as we called the US NAVFAC - which was commanded by a Capt Jacobs).

"Hope he didn't blow your ears off when he dropped his tanks in the bay the other day?", quipped my colleague.

At which the spooks simply got up and walked away....:\

[Hovermonkey]

There is a lot of drivel on TV at the moment but I must say that documentary was by far one of the best programmes I have seen in a very long time. A credit to the BBC and the RN Submarine Service. I look forward to part 2.

[Maxibon]

The USN at Brawdy were most unamusing company as BEagle rightly said. I was chatting over a beer with a Lt Cdr one eveining and when I asked her what she did, she told me she couldn't answer that. "So, it's nothing to do with you guys having a line of sonars from Greenland to here then?"; "I can't answer that"; a pause and "where did you hear such a rumour out of interest?". "A bloke down the pub in Haverfordwest". No sense of humour and she then had the impertinence to decline my subsequent invitation, despite me plying her with orange juice all evening... Ho hum, thank heavens for Minnies:ok:

[Sandy Parts]

not caught the tv show yet but if you interested in the subject - I can recommend heartily the book "Blinds Man's Buff" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/0099409984/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386334995&sr=8-1&keywords=blind+man%27s+buff - top read and real life testimony from both sides.:ok:

[BEagle]

...she then had the impertinence to decline my subsequent invitation...

Good grief! Most of the NAVFAC females when I was at Brawdy had clearly been specifically chosen to be as unlikely as possible to attract the eye of lustful aircrew....:eek:

Even Air Engineers*!






*(Except, of course, 'Moulinex'....:hmm:)

[ImageGear]

A brilliant documentary, which reminded me of the comedy film "Down Periscope" with Kelsey Grammer (Frazier) and Lauren Holly when she asked, how will we evade the chasing subhunters - "We'll go right under the tanker between the propellers".

Cut to what I thought were ridiculous graphics of a sub within metres of 30' tanker props, in your dreams thought I. The turbulence would get you chopped up like salami.

I take it back, the pictures of the Kiev props apparently taken from 90 degrees to the side, (if that's what they were) take one's breath away.

Hat's off, that is immense skill and confidence, from someone who has been skippering small boats and yachts for more than 30 years. :D

Imagegear

[Maxibon]

BEagle,

When one had been in the colony for 3 months and the offerings of the local female had been appropriately dismissed, there was little option. Plus I'd been on a month of orderly officer duty and was desparate - she was ginger as well!

[BEagle]

....she was ginger as well!

It gets worse and worse!

Either you're referring to colour of hair or, if using the Cockney vernacular, implying that you were offering to 'cure' her :eek: ???

[Maxibon]

She was a USN Lt Cdr - either applies.

[air pig]

Stayed in the Sergeants mess for a week in 1980, Petty Officers et al, really good guys, sank an awful lot of beer with them.

[Lancman]

Small world.

A couple of years ago I was chatting with a retired Naval scientist and when I mentioned my Nimrod experience he asked me if I'd heard of SOSUS and I said that at one time we'd done a couple of flights dropping explosive charges into the North Atlantic for calibration purposes. "Ah" he said " I was the bloke on the other end listening"!

[Rossian]

.....my one was from Keflavik to Gib in a straight line at 100feet dropping one charge every half a mile starting half a mile off shore of Iceland. The Shack was absolutely stuffed with card board boxes of charges, hardly any room to move. As the boxes were emptied we ripped the boxes up and threw them out the beam windows.

The REALLY critical job was the nav and timing - I think we had a spare nav. We also had a second LORAN A set. No such thing as INAS in those days.

The guy who devised the nav procedures was given an American award for the outstanding quality of the output of his procedure. He is still with us in body but suffers from dementia - a sad affliction to all those who know and respect his ability.

The Ancient Mariner

[nimbev]

Interesting documentary but, as usual with this type of programme, rather over stating actual capabilities.... otherwise it would have been so easy, wouldn't it?

[MAINJAFAD]

The British sub that hit the 'iceberg' was most likely Warspite, Sandy Woodward took over command of the boat about a year after she was repaired and found most of the crew on board who had been on the boat at the time were still suffering from Post Dramatic Stress to some degree. (The incident was so bad that 1/4 of the crew who were on the boat at the time of the incident banged out of the submarine service as soon as she made it back to base). The story is mentioned in the second chapter of "One Hundred Days".

[TEEEJ]

BBC iPlayer - The Silent War: Know Your Enemy (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03lb1fn/The_Silent_War_Know_Your_Enemy/)

Available until 8:59PM Thu, 19 Dec 2013

Part 2 is on Thurs 12 Dec at 2100.

BBC Two - The Silent War - Next on (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03lb1vc/broadcasts/upcoming)

BBC - The Cold War Season - About the Season (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01jtngj/features/about)

[Janda]

I was actually on the Nimrod crew that hosted the Panorama team for a week filming the Cold Deep War. The crew had also recently flew some very classified sorties in support of what we later found out to be SOSUS seeding. We also were astounded at some of the questions asked by Tom Mangold and very surprised at what came out in the programme.

[Yellow Sun]

Rossian and Janda

About the same time as he was at Brawdy I was at St Mawgan. I and all my squadron mates watched in utter disbelief the documentary by Tom Mangold called "The Deep Cold War". It included shots of a Nimrod crew as they tracked a soviet nuc, inside the Ops room at Andoya where on the wall charts you could if you knew see the location of the sensors, and interviews with Mr SACLANT (one admiral Ike Kidd) who was very forthright.

We were not supposed to talk about any of this outside a windowless room in the middle of STM Ops block on pain of death, and as OC that little unit was a black belt in TaeKwonDo it would have been a tad painful. A Sqn Ldr lost his job for talking unguardedly.

And here it was all over the Beeb!! WTF over.


I was actually on the Nimrod crew that hosted the Panorama team for a week filming the Cold Deep War. The crew had also recently flew some very classified sorties in support of what we later found out to be SOSUS seeding. We also were astounded at some of the questions asked by Tom Mangold and very surprised at what came out in the programme.

I imagine that at sometime you were launched on SAR to investigate around the site of a cable break? You would usually find a Moma or suchlike departing the datum at best speed. It certainly happened to me and as a result one could surmise that the Soviets had a pretty good idea of where the cables were.

A few years later I recall seeing a translation of an article from a Soviet military magazine that gave a pretty accurate description of our SOSUS operational procedures. I think it appeared in Aviation Week.

During that period the Walkers were in full flow, providing keylists to the Soviets that would enable them to quickly analyse our traffic and draw conclusions about what we were doing. One could also surmise that Geoffrey Prime (who worked for the GRU, not the KGB) may have at least indirectly contributed to their understanding.

We may not have known of the Walkers and Prime, but we must have been well aware from more overt means that the Soviets had a reasonable picture of SOSUS. After all did we not draw similar conclusions about SOSS?

YS

[Janda]

We flew a couple of dedicated sorties which were covert. Only 3 people on board were fully briefed on what we were doing and I was not one!! Both sorties were at night and from take off to landing back the only comms were via a specially fitted secure comms radio fitted into the the starboard lookout position.

A lot of the Panorama programme was filmed in the simulator. The actual flight was mainly for infill. I was a young sergeant at the time such a long time ago!!!

[Union Jack]

The British sub that hit the 'iceberg'

The!?:rolleyes:

PS WARSPITE is a submarine, not a sandwich ......:=

[EW73]

So it's actually a 'boat' then!

[MAINJAFAD]

UJ, The sub in question is not mentioned by name in the TV programme, what it hit is not mentioned other than it was an 'Iceberg'. The 'Iceberg' was in fact an 'Echo'. Full story can be found in a book called Hunter Killers by Iain Ballantyne, which I got my little pinkies on this morning.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hunter-Killers-Iain-Ballantyne-ebook/dp/B00CYKHQM4/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

[Ogre]

For those of you who are not currently in the UK (and therefore can't get iPlayer to work) the first part is on YouTube

The Silent War Know Your Enemy Episode1 BBC full documentary 2013[ Cold War]British,American Russian - YouTube

The downside it there is a 20 second delay on the audio for some reason

[RequestPidgeons]

Thanks, Ogs

:ok:

[Halton Brat]

Further to BBC iPlayer access outside of UK, you guys need to simply install a free programme such as expatshield (google it). This will conceal your location & allow access to all the UK iPlayer services, BBC/ITV et al. Simples!

HB

[Beartrap]

Ogre, Halton Brat,


many thanks for your advice - gratefully received downunder!

[Yellow Sun]

"Beartrap" now there's an appropriate username:ok:

YS

[CoffmanStarter]

A very interesting programme from the BBC :ok:

A little more information here ...

SOSUS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS)

Even more interesting ...

The system is so sensitive that it can even detect the presence of Soviet/Russian Tu-95 Bear 4-engine bombers flying overhead; the tips of the bombers's long propellers exceed the speed of sound, creating sonic booms as they spin around. These sonic booms reach the surface of the ocean below, which then transmits the sonic shocks to the underwater hydrophones.

OK so it's Wikipedia but sounds technically plausible.

Also here from the US Navy

US Navy SOSUS (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_25/sosus.htm)

A typical SOSUS Watch Floor ...

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_25/images/watch_floor.gif

[Bushfiva]

A series about the "Perisher" course is also on Youtube.

[nimbev]

"Beartrap" now there's an appropriate usernameQuite so YS - at least to those of us of a maritime persuasion!! Oh Happy Days :ok:

[ImageGear]

As if to make the point, interesting little flotilla heading SSW down the North Sea at the moment - lot's of "ears", I expect.

Imagegear

[TEEEJ]

Imagegear,
Is it the Indian Navy aircraft carrier Vikramaditya with frigate Trikhand and tanker Deepak?

INS Vikramaditya sets sail for India - The Hindu (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ins-vikramaditya-sets-sail-for-india/article5394676.ece)

[olddog]

Unsurprisingly the first programme was very sub surface and naval orientated. Let's hope there will be a little credit given to the airborne ASW forces, both shore and carrier based, which contributed greatly to the tracking of the enemy and protection of our own subs in episode 2. The programme regenerated memories of long days and nights spent airborne in all the worst winter weather the N Atlantic can offer and even longer days spent on the ground in Ops waiting to see the results of the Air Tasker who decided where to send the MPA to conduct their searches. Sadly, for the present at least, the UK no longer has the ability to conduct deep sea ASW from the air and our surface ASW fleet is almost insignificant. ASW expertise is bleeding away. Our allies fare little better. Let's hope there is no return to a Cold War situation, I doubt that we would cope.

[ImageGear]

TEEEJ

Yes, it would appear so, Warship R33, F51, A50. on live ships at the moment abeam Hastings. Something else was in company last night but only had an unrecognisable (to me) MMSI.

R33 looks very old Soviet

Imagegear

[HAS59]

the Indians are coming!

R33 is the ex mod Kiev class (Baku) now rebuilt as INS Vikramaditya (meaning "Brave as the sun")

F51 is one of the excellent Talwar class, INS Trikand a Russian built sort of updated Krivak IV.

A50 is the INS Deepak an Italian built fleet replenishment ship.

All nice looking ships...
wish I was up there looking at them ...
oh well never mind ...
:8

[TEEEJ]

Thanks, Imagegear. :ok:

R33 looks very old Soviet

INS Vikramaditya (R33) is a modified Kiev-class. Soviet/Russian service as Baku then Admiral Gorshkov.

INS Vikramaditya (R33) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikramaditya)

Soviet aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Admiral_Gorshkov)

[ImageGear]

TEEEJ

Got the old R1155 going again?

imagegear

[HAS59]

Just a thought, when we had a navy we used to play wargames on Thursdays ... I wonder if the Indians were invited!

[Party Animal]

ImageGear,

Fascinating stuff. How does one access 'live ships'?

Cheers,

PA

[ImageGear]

Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions - AIS Marine Traffic (http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/)

You can also go to the "Vessels" tab and search for "Warship"

Imagegear

[Party Animal]

Thanks IG :ok:

[The Old Fat One]

Just a thought, when we had a navy we used to play wargames on Thursdays ... I wonder if the Indians were invited!

Indeed...a wee true story recited by an Indian Admiral (a very charismatic one) at the centenary (or was it the 90th celebration ????) bash of the RN submarine service at Lancaster University.

As a junior officer of submarines, said admiral had to qualify on both old brit boats and old soviet boats (dsl electric). So there was he in the sonar room gaily helping the brit crew when up fronts, contact in, the latest pride of the RN...HMS Dreadnought. Cue everyman and his dog to check out the never been seen before signature...which was about as highly classified as it ever gets.

Shortly, captain brit boat spots Indian junior officer, pauses and asks

"where did you say you were off to next month?"

"Murmansk sir, to qualify on the Foxtrot"

I believe what came next was...

"Please remove that ethnically diverse, oedipus prone, parentally challenged officer from my oedipus prone submersible craft."

Or something like that.

[Union Jack]

Indeed...a wee true story recited by an Indian Admiral (a very charismatic one) at the centenary (or was it the 90th celebration ????) bash of the RN submarine service at Lancaster University.

Well, since DREADNOUGHT was first commissioned in 1963 and paid off in 1980, whilst the Submarine Service was first formed in 1901, I'm damned if I can work out which anniversary - or even which nuclear submarine? - it must have been!:confused:

Jack

PS Love the diesel boat CO's command of the English language!:D

[TEEEJ]

Images of HMS Monmouth escorting INS Vikramaditya.

HMS Monmouth helps mammoth aircraft carrier through Channel | Royal Navy (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Latest-News/2013/December/16/131216-HMS-Monmouth-Indian)

[ImageGear]

A recent quote states that the Queen Elizabeth Class ships are almost 50% larger and by displacement it would appear that they are, however in terms of Length, Beam and Draught, the difference appears minimal.

Should I be wondering where the additional weight is acquired?

Vikramaditya

Displacement: 45,400 tons of loaded displacement
Length: 284 metres (932 ft) (overall)
Beam: 60 metres (200 ft)[6]
Draught: 10.2 metres (33 ft

Prince Charles

Displacement: 70,600 tonnes (69,500 long tons)[3]
Length: 280 m (920 ft)[4]
Beam: 39 metres (waterline) 73 metres overall
Draught: 11 metres[5]

(With apologies to Wikipedia)

Imagegear

[Neptunus Rex]

ImageGear

I rather fancy that Archimedes might disagree, in principle, of course.

[TEEEJ]

A Russian carrier group led by the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov has left its Barents Sea base at the start of a mission to boost the Russian naval presence in the Mediterranean.

It is to sail to the area by way of the Northeast Atlantic and the Strait of Gibraltar.

Russian carrier group headed for Mediterranean mission -Voice of Russia (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_12_17/Russian-carrier-group-headed-for-Mediterranean-mission-9359/)

The Kuznetsov deployment was announced back in June.

Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier to start long-range mission in Mediterranean in late 2013 | Russia Beyond The Headlines (http://rbth.co.uk/news/2013/06/01/admiral_kuznetsov_aircraft_carrier_to_start_long-range_mission_in_medite_26615.html)

[Biggus]

Didn't the UK MPA fraternity, when we had one, use to refer to this sort of deployment as Op Deny Christmas?

[Yellow Sun]

Didn't the UK MPA fraternity, when we had one, use to refer to this sort of deployment as Op Deny Christmas?

Never heard it called that, it would have just been another task for the Duty Squadron. I did spend the better part of a Boxing Day keeping the Kiev company as she transited West of UK towards the Med. I still cannot see what the point of us being there was.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

I recall back around 1982, as one of our 'props' on the RED CAN defector exercises one guy acquired some Russian magazines. One had an article on ASW which included graphics of sonar detection ranges.

I am not sure if it covered the 1C but it certainly covered the SSQ41, the C-class buoys, convergence zone detection and Sosus. The latter included array positioning etc.

I also recall one Survop where our area south of Iceland was completely empty. We had a feeling in the water and applied navigation error to our search area. We 'drifted' no more than 5 miles north and absolutely silent we bounced a very large AGS. The sea was silky smooth and a thick sea fog. There was a man in an inflatable powering away from the ship. By the time we came back for our second pass he was being hauled back on board. By the time of the 3rd pass the docking port was sealed up tight.

I hope they were left wondering how the had been detected when dead in the water and radars off by an MPA with radar off too :)

[Wander00]

Didn't 39 (1 PRU) hack off the maritime operators by getting Maritime Photo of the Year in the early 90s by getting a photo of a new Russian warship.

[reynoldsno1]

I imagine that at sometime you were launched on SAR to investigate around the site of a cable break
Oh yes, happened a couple of times - Irish trawlers in the Irish sea were always to blame, apparently.

When the Kiev first appeared in the Med, there was pandemonium around Crete, with every man & his dog wanting to take photos. ISTR even the Greeks had a DC3 up ... our vertical colour photos appeared on the front page of the DT eventually.

[MATELO]

I always thought SOSUS was hush, to keep it from the French, not the Russians. :)