"Swan River' Floatplanes to operate...

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

From the WA Today News...today....

It seems that, once again, we may see floatplanes operating on the Swan...

Planes to land on Swan River (http://www.watoday.com.au/environment/save-our-swan/planes-to-land-on-swan-river-20131129-2ygyp.html?eid=email:nnn-13omn632-ret_newsl-membereng:nnn-04/11/2013-news_pm-dom-news-nnn-watoday-u&campaign_code=13INO003&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=NTYxMTM0NQ)

Rotsa Ruck to 'Catalina Airlines'!!

Cheers:ok::ok:

[Clare Prop]

What about the Wagyl?

[T28D]

Sadly this will never happen, the aircraft are for sale and CASA has not given approval

[dubbleyew eight]

what would you expect?
Perth people are afraid of heights.

[The Banjo]

Go to the foreshore of Vancouver, Canada and watch the largest floatplane company in the world operate. A fleet of Twin/Single Otters and Beavers arriving or departing every 15 minutes; a short walk from the CBD. A great spectacle with dozens of people coming down just to watch and an essential service to the community and the hundreds of pax that use it daily.

It would be great to see this occur in Australia, but alas the greenies, the professional noise complainers, the wagyl and pollies with no foresight will surely bury it.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Any idea of 'why not', Mr 'D'.....

:eek:

G'Day Mr 'B',

Have flown on said floatplanes out of Seattle....magic country, and magic flying.
The guy did a couple of 'water' touch & go's just because we asked him to....NO problem!!!:ok::ok:

(Single 'Otter' PT-6 powered....LUVLY!!)


W8 - And your point is..???
YEP!!! You ARE lost!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[dubbleyew eight]

griffo I think the third line of banjo's post is bang on the money.

the problem with people in perth is that in their isolation their brains are going.
look at the resistance offered to anything different.
they will flay themselves in the streets to prevent anything changing.
perthites need a good solid natural disaster to befall them and shake them out of the rut they bury themselves in.

just look at the bull**** on the freeway in the morning. in the 100km/h zone they flog along at 80, safe and secure in their mediocrity. when they get to the 80 zone do they keep on going since they are already at the speed? no way jose. they slow to 60.

the only other place that you see that sort of slow brain clinging steadfastly to yesterday is in an aged persons home.
I'm serious on the appraisal. I've lived in Perth since 1970.

aeroplanes on the swan river? bugger me havent we had enough of the noise problems during the war??? when will they ever learn???

Perth sentences itself to total mediocracy.


me personally. I'm in total support of the guy flying floatplanes off the swan.

[YPJT]

Hmmm I wonder if McCormack also plans tu use his Grumman that has been parked up at Jandakot for the last couple of years?

[SpeedHumpCat]

dubbleyew eight,

if you dont like it in Perth, why are you still here?

[Pappa Smurf]

Dubble,
those freeway speeds in the morning--how come so fast.I must have struck odd times as they were slow to stop start especially near West Perth.
Not only Perth,but Qld is good for driving 10k under the limit as well,as is Sth Aus.

[ranmar850]

Sounds more like you are lost. Visited Perth once, didn't like it and now feel bound to bore the rest of the world ad infinitum with it? In my experience, which is extensive, they'll go as fast as they can get away with, WRT posted limits. Drive at 80 in a 100 limit when not constrained by traffic ?/..I think you were on a different planet. That said, they certainly are ignorant of the finer points of merging:mad:

[onetrack]

The SRT has been dead against floatplanes on the Swan River (more correctly, Melville Water) for the last umpteen years. Here are their stated reasons (which have now been quashed under pressure from somewhere).

SRT Objections to Floatplanes - http://www.swanrivertrust.wa.gov.au/docs/policies-and-guidelines/srt-d17-floatplanes-other-aircraft.pdf

Map of the area - http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/marine/MAC-M-NarrowsPWCArea.pdf

The area agreed to now by the SRT, is on Melville Water between the PRC recreational area and the Milyu Marine Park. It looks like a pretty cramped area for floatplanes to operate.
Jetskis one side, migratory wetland birds on the other sides - and thousands of boaters (both power and sail) all vying for their spot on Melville Water.

This isn't 1944, folks, when you could land a Squadron of Catalinas anywhere on the River without raising an eyebrow.
It's 2013, Perth has around 1.7M population, and every second person owns a boat or a jetski. It's mayhem out there. I've skied the PRC area (years ago when it was open to skiing) and you needed eyes in the back of your head, then.
Jetskiers are nutters at the best of time, and I'm sure every single one of them will be aware of float planes .. :rolleyes: ("Oooh, FARRRRKKKK!! :eek: - where did HE come from??". says jetskier as he's doing a fishtailing figure-8, right in front of a Caravan on a splashdown).

No, I'm sorry, I think this idea is on a par with allowing the Kwinana Freeway to be used for takeoffs and landings when traffic is light. :rolleyes:
There's just too much boating congestion (this is a big sailing area), too many people, too many jetskis, too many birds, and not enough room, to carry out a RPT floatplane service safely, in the area selected.
The fact that the SRT was absolutely dead against the idea for so long - then all of sudden it's O.K. - doesn't wash.
Someone has applied a lot pressure here ("mates??") to try and get this up and running.
When the Caravan/s have to take off in a Nth-Easterly direction in Summer, against the prevailing strong Easterlies, the howls of protest from those in the South Perth foreshore multi-million dollar apartments will be overwhelming.

[OCTA]

Hey Onetrack,

Ever heard of that little patch of water on the east coast called Sydney Harbour? They seem to deal with traffic pretty well.... Its not a new concept although Perth seems to think they are inventing it!

[ranmar850]

Sydney harbour is "somewhat" larger than the Swan. And a lot of that area has mudbanks, it's not all deep like Sydney. traffic is restricted to the channels Looking at it from anywhere around the CBD/South Perth/Melville Water it seems huge, but that area is the only one really available for the room required for seaplane ops. the rest of it is relatively narrow and winding. Very few really viable choices. Also remember that Perth is one of the windiest capital cities in the world. Even less options in the strong seabreeze (although certainly useful for coming "unstuck" in the takeoff run)

[OCTA]

Rose Bay isn't that big but yes probably bigger than the river. BUT in Rose Bay they have three sailing clubs, two stand up paddle clubs, two jet boat operators, Sydney ferries every 10 minutes, hire boats, party boats, canoe's and the Westfield parking lot all surrounded by some of the most expensive real estate in Australia.

I don't know how shallow the other parts of the river are but a Van only needs four foot of water to operate off the step and about two feet when on the step.

[bentleg]

I don't know how shallow the other parts of the river are but a Van only
needs four foot of water to operate off the step and about two feet when on the
step.

On Perth Water, another large stretch of water that is closer to the CBD, they dredge the channel for the ferry, from Barrack Street to Mends Street, to six feet.

[T28D]

Throughout the latter part of the 2nd world war Catalina Flying Boats operated from Perth Water fully loaded with fuel for the "Double Sunrise" flights across the Indian ocean, the Catalina was not known foe sparkling performance full of gas.


So a Caravan on floats will have no trouble !!!!!


When we operated the C206 for a small time on the river it was no issue until the "noise police" got involved in Bullcreek.

[onetrack]

The Catalinas did not take off from Perth Water, they took off from Melville Water, from near the Narrows - and always in a Sth-Westerly direction towards Fremantle.
They needed the huge area of downstream Melville Water to get airborne with their 4 ton overload of fuel.

Perth Water is the much smaller area of open water bounded by the Causeway, the Narrows bridge, South Perth, and the City.

McCormacks Catalina Airlines initially applied to use Perth Water as the takeoff/landing area. During the assessment, a local MP suggested that the area of Melville Water previously utilised by the Wartime Catalinas be used instead of Perth Water.
McCormack agreed and then changed his plans from using Perth Water to using Melville Water.
This upset the SRT (rightfully so), as the submitted plans no longer matched the modified plans - so McCormack had to resubmit his plans again.

Catalina Airlines - Cessna 208 Caravan seaplane VH-OPH could be operating from Perths Swan River from early 2014 | AviationWA (http://www.aviationwa.org.au/2013/12/02/catalina-airlines-cessna-208-caravan-seaplane-vh-oph-could-be-operating-from-perths-swan-river-from-early-2014/)

During 1943-1946, during the period of the Catalinas operations, the population of Perth was around 250,000 people. Today it's over 1.7M.
That's nearly 7 times the number of people, and those people are equipped with 10 times as many recreational water toys as the people of WW2 Perth were.

We have just about the highest population of watercraft per capita in the nation - everything from tinnies to sailing boats to monstrous cruising vessels. We have PWC on a mind-boggling scale.
We have cruise boats running Fremantle-Perth and return. None of this existed in WW2.

I don't know how all watercraft owners can be educated to understand that there will now be the equivalent of a runway in the middle of their regular boating and sailing area.
Just one dumb, thoughtless watercraft owner plowing through the LZ in his jetski/speedboat, as a Caravan touches down, will be enough to create havoc.
I haven't sighted the application for the floatplane operation, but I'm hazarding a guess the LZ will be well marked with buoys, and thus provide some warning to thoughtless watercraft owners.

The bottom line is - the SRT has always rejected floatplanes on the Swan River due to “amenity and conflict with other river and foreshore activities”.
What I am basically asking is - what has changed in the last 7 yrs for the authorities to now allow floatplanes?
The only thing that has changed is McCormack initially proposed to use his Grumman - but changed his plans again, and offered to use the smaller Caravan instead, to try and get his business plan "off the ground", so to speak.

[Dora-9]

The Catalinas did not take off from Perth Water, they took off from Melville Water, from near the Narrows - and always in a Sth-Westerly direction towards Fremantle. I agree about them using Melville Water, but always in a South-Westerly direction? Didn't a Catalina end up "beaching" itself on the Como shore very near the present day Narrows Bridge? Presumably a failed take off in a North Easterly direction? So what happened when an Easterly was blowing?

[onetrack]

Dora-9 - I cannot find any mention in the definitive history of the Double Sunrise story (Qantas Empire Airways - Indian Ocean Service - 1943-1946) that says any Catalinas ever took off towards the NE.

Most takeoffs were done in the wee small hours, long before sunrise, when any Easterlies would have been relatively light, as I see it.
When a high pressure system located in the Bight is creating strong Easterlies (as in a normal Summer pattern), the strong Easterlies usually abate to a large degree in the wee small hours.

Quite a number of planned takeoffs were delayed due to rough water and strong winds - but nowhere is the wind direction mentioned in these cases.
Calm water was a bigger problem - and the writer explains how if glassy water was encountered, the extended takeoff run wasn't a problem, as "several miles of water were available (for takeoff) without any high surrounding obstructions".
This description indicates a Sth-Westerly takeoff run, towards Fremantle.

In a couple of accounts of takeoff from Melville Water, the writer remarks about "Fremantle slipping away underneath", after takeoff - and another paragraph speaks of "Perth appearing under our starboard wing as the aircraft banks to a heading of 315° towards Ceylon".

Nowhere in the book is mentioned any instance of a Wartime Qantas Catalina becoming beached at Como. It's possible this may have happened to another military floatplane at some other period in time.

[OCTA]

Onetack,

They would always take off into wind, just because its not noted in one book doesn't mean it didn't happen. A fully loaded Cat with a 10 kt tail wind simply wouldn't happen.

As to one PWC changing course.... Go around! It happens all the time, not a big deal. Floatplanes always get a great look at what the boats are doing and change the landing area to suit before the landing that exact time. A fully loaded Van will only need about 400 meters to stop anyway so if you can't find that I would be very surprised. I doubt they will mark the landing area with markers there is just no need.

As I said PERTH this is not a new thing it has been going on for almost 100 years now there is no need to reinvent the wheel... arhh float.

[Aussie Bob]

Onetrack, you got something against seaplanes or just against this particular operator? No offense meant, but do you have any seaplane experience?

[bentleg]

Nowhere in the book is mentioned any instance of a Wartime Qantas Catalina
becoming beached at Como. It's possible this may have happened to another
military floatplane at some other period in time.

The Catalina base was at Pelican Point. If a Cat broke its mooring in a stiff sea breeze it would have finished up at Como..........

[Jack Ranga]

Wanna talk about f@ckwit drivers? Come to Melbourne, 88 is the new 100. Even better if you're in the right lane. Rest assured that the filth are onto tailgating so if you want to do the speed limit, do it in the middle or left lane where it's safest, in amongst all the B doubles :ok: (who coincidentally aren't allowed in the right on one particular road)

Oh yeah, Melbourne float plane pilots are the best :ok: there's no lanes so they can't f@ck anybody up.

[Dora-9]

Onetrack:

Don't forget the USN operated Catalinas from Crawley too; I'm pretty sure it was one of theirs that got beached at Como.