AIRPROX

[BlueJays]

Now this is one thing that has always concerned me with flying VFR in uncontrolled airspace. I'm just interested to know if any of you guys have had any close calls, and what you have learnt from that experience and do differently now. I know you should scan across the windscreen on a regular basis, but are there any other suggestions or recommendations you guys have to avoiding other aircraft?

Thanks in advance

Matthew

[piperboy84]

1: a pair of mark 1 eyeballs (slightly used)
2:Amazon.com: Zaon PCAS XRX-A ONYX Portable Collision Avoidance: GPS & Navigation also slightly used.
3: Pray and pucker arse simultaneously.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yes, several, one I actually filed.

Solutions?

- Avoid choke points such as beacons or ILS approaches
- Listen at-least to nearby LARS controllers
- Bloody good lookout
- Squawk, with ALT
- Bloody good lookout

I'm personally unimpressed about the common advice not to fly at standard round-number altitudes, it's pretty much irrelevant as most PPLs don't fly height very accurately anyhow. On the other hand, consider on longer trips asking for clearances and flying in controlled airspace, where the risks are rather less.

If you can find a current or retired fighter pilot, ask them how they do lookout - it's almost certain to be a better method than used in most GA.

G

[DavidWoodward]

Stick to the right hand rule even if it adds a few minutes to your journey. I have met a few people on the other side of a line feature as they cut a corner direct to the airfield. Remember that just because you're obeying the laws of the air not everybody else is. Keep a lookout!

[Nearly There]

Those people may not have been flying using the line feature and flying direct.

[BlueJays]

Apart from regular scans of the outside world and flying at less popular altitudes e.g 2300ft as oppose to 2500ft, are there any other useful tips you guys have to avoiding other traffic in uncontrolled airspace? Any comments are much appreciated.

I spoke to a Typhoon pilot recently who said they will often fly in the open FIR. I can only assume they have some sort of TCAS system on board.

Matthew

[Red Four]

Start earlier and fly at less popular time of day, come back later.

[The500man]

I've flown with a few ex-fighter pilots and not noticed them having a better scan method. If anything I suspect they are more used to looking where they are going as they're probably going to be more used to flying fast and low.

To improve your chances you can always fly at less busy times, and the weather is sometimes a good clue as to where you may find traffic.

[Pace]

Often the problem is an autopilot! Once the autopilot is on pilots seem to think it is OK to have their total focus in the aircraft normally looking at maps or writing down details or making calculations.

i was right seat in a SEP with another pilot in the left I had my eyes down reading a Map his attention was elsewhere. I looked up just in time to see an aircraft pass directly over us in the opposite direction. it was a 172 and cannot have been more than 20 feet above us. So Close I could clearly see the tread on his tyres.
The Alarming bit was that the aircraft carried on in a straight line obviously equally unaware of us and obviously equally on autopilot doing the sunday times crossword or something else as he was totally oblivious to us.

the other near miss was in a Seneca descending through cloud IMC when a glider flashed past also in cloud and close enough to be seen in the gloom.

Pace

[MikeeB]

Don't fly at 2000ft.

[ShyTorque]

I've filed three (about one every decade).

The closest call I had was actually during takeoff.

A glider pilot landed his glider over my aircraft (Bulldog) while my student was flying our takeoff, just before lift off. I took control and avoided his glider by the narrowest of margins, my starboard wing went over his port wingtip. I had no other option because if I'd tried to stop we would have run up the back of him.

Lookout is the best answer (and to a lesser extent listen out on the correct frequency to help build a mental picture).

[kaitakbowler]

A flying club I used to frequent had a visit to TTTE at Cottesmore, one of the things that came out of it was the appalling front view out of a Tonka, the other was that when the Tonkas were at low level in uncontrolled airspace they expected light a/c to avoid them. the message was "go high"

PM

[Tankengine]

ShyTorque,
One must wonder why you started taking off in front of a glider which had no means of going around!:ugh:
Mark one eyeball, AND radio in circuit.:ok:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Don't fly at 2000ft.
When I've been at 5,000' - 8,000' I've never seen or heard anyone else at the same level.

[RTN11]

I had two, one flying around a large event, should've known it would be a choke point and more people would be looking at it.

The other was a low level military jet.

In both cases I spoke to the other pilot on the phone, and their tone was very much blaming me for the airprox. Does anyone else find this? I felt in both cases we were both equally at fault, the first one I was looking into sun and the second we were just both at the same level, just bad luck.

All aircraft have blind spots, so the key for me is to keep the head moving around them.

[ShyTorque]

ShyTorque,
One must wonder why you started taking off in front of a glider which had no means of going around!

Well, we simply never saw him, that's why! I was flying at a controlled military airfield (with an ATZ of course). There were five powered aircraft in the circuit. One of them was in the process of landing and after waiting for a while at the holding point (during which time we had been looking out for other aircraft - it was a full pattern) we were cleared to line up immediate behind the next landing traffic and wait, which we did. We were cleared to takeoff from that position after waiting for the preceding aircraft to clear the runway. The white glider apparently came out the west, out of a very low sun, in very hazy conditions and cut across the live circuit. He had a radio but had not bothered to call ATC. No-one else, including ATC saw the glider until it landed (we saw it just before it landed, as I said it landed over us from behind).

The airfield was all short grass, It was at least 3,000 feet wide and only slightly less in length, bearing in mind the runway in use was 31. The glider could easily have landed on any of the airfield, there were three runways in all but all of the field was suitable for landing out. We were already lined up on the runway when he made his final approach, so he was behind us as we were held on the ground. He chose to land on the active runway, even though he could easily have "side-stepped" at any time and landed alongside the active runway.

If he had made a simple radio call things could have been very different. He just didn't bother. As it was, he was lucky our prop didn't split his skull from behind. A solo student probably wouldn't have been able to fly the aircraft partly off the ground and turn left away from the glider as I (only just) managed to do and certainly would not have been able to stop the aircraft.

[pulse1]

From a fairly recent fright I have learned to worry more about the aeroplane dropping parachutists than the parachutists themselves. I can usually work out where the free fallers are likely to be but there's no way of knowing which bit of sky the pilot who dropped them is using in the rapid descent back to pick up the next lot. It is worth doing all you can to let them know where you are, especially if you are just passing by as I was.

[Romeo Tango]

Don't worry too much about it. It's mostly statistics anyway. You are much more likely to kill yourself some other way than a random collision in the open FIR.

[The_Pink_Panther]

I’ve had 2 close calls in 2 years, both from pilots who had got the live side of the circuit wrong.
Last year, in the circuit, I’d just called downwind, and found a Piper climbing dead ahead towards me having done a PFL on the live side against the circuit direction.
Saturday just gone, I had turned down wind, and found another Piper descending left-to-right in my 10 o’clock across my path, but called “Descending deadside”. They then processed to descend to circuit height over the “Do not overfly” village inside the circuit.

[CruiseAttitude]

This is what I personally do:

1. Always keep a really good look out, as said by others be proactive with your scan. If flying on a clear day, be aware of empty field myopia. Obviously, make sure the windscreen and windows are clean of bugs etc. Have your eyes on stalks when in the vicinity of aerodromes and indeed choke points such as beacons, corridors/pinch points between CAS and distinct land marks/VRPs (perhaps try and avoid some of these if possible), keeping clear of ILS approaches and holds were also mentioned above.

2. Keep your ears open, build up a mental picture of where other traffic is based on position reports, especially in the vicinity of aerodromes. There is no guarantee that other pilots will be reporting their position accurately. However, you can make an effort to do so and also take extra care to follow aerodrome procedures correctly and position yourself correctly. When in the vicinity of an aerodrome and you cannot see a reporting/reported aircraft, state that you are not visual with it so that the other pilot does not assume you can see him/her. Also, make an effort with the RT, keep it accurate and concise using correct phraseology.

3. In busy airspace, get a traffic service from LARS if available. The radar controller acts as a second set of eyes watching over you, this is very helpful in busy airspace such as in the SE of England, or at least listen and use a listening squawk if available.

4. Keep your cockpit tidy and organised to minimise potential ‘head down’ time. Keep information and equipment you need to hand.

5. If equipped, always use the transponder and have mode C enabled.

6. If equipped, use strobes while airborne. Also, if reciprocal heading oncoming traffic is reported and you cannot see eachother because its murky/hazy switch on your landing lights to be more visible for a while. Don’t leave them on unnecessarily though.


7. Use TCAS or a PCAS device such as the Zaon XRX, MRX or PowerFLARM etc. I have an MRX and it works well. Be aware that these will only pick up transponding traffic and consider it as just a backup/secondary safety device. This is an area where things are evolving and ADS-B will yield new possibilities for GA in the future, I recall quite a detailed thread on here about this a short while back.

[modelman]

Flying into Duxford really busy day only spotted an aircraft below by his shadow. Also went around twice after tardy runway vacations ahead pity FISOs cannot issue land after instructions would speed things up a lot

[tggzzz]

One easy thing you can do for yourself is to do is to plot your route on a half-mil paper map before setting off - and look carefully at what's underneath the flight path. (And check the NOTAMs, of course!)

I've frequently seen light aircraft overfly active airfields at a dangerous height, i.e. below the height indicated on the half-mil maps. For one example, see airprox report 05207 in <http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/docs/423/ukabbk18.pdf>

I suspect that the relevant airfields are not shown on some (all?) electronic moving maps.

[BlueJays]

Thank you for all the responses. I'll certainly take all the good advice on board.

[fireflybob]

We all know that we should lookout but there don't seem to be many teaching us how to lookout - I think there needs to be more education on this.

Although this is about cycle safety there are some excellent tips about lookout and how the eye and brain work in this respect - well worth a read:-

What an RAF pilot can teach us about being safe on the road (http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/)

[Dave Wilson]

If I'm ever flying with non pilot friends I always brief them that they are an extra pair of eyes. People enjoy being given that bit of responsibility and I find that because your pax aren't distracted by anything else they tend to spot traffic before you. Always praise them if they do and give them a sweet.

The ones I hate the most are 'A/c on reciprocal heading. no height information' and you can't spot it, is he below me climbing, is he above me descending... always a worrier for me that one and an opener for interesting manouvres as I try to cover the blind spots.

[Pace]

The ones I hate the most are Gliders ! They tend to be white , slow moving and circle close to cloud bases.
They are also very unlikely to be transponding and do not stay at a constant altitudes

That is not against glider pilots but a natural concern over gliders and collision risk

Pace

[Jan Olieslagers]

And how many seconds before one of them turns up to say it is up to you to install flarm

[Dave Wilson]

Interesting Pace, I find them quite easy to spot unless they really are in that dead spot of colour/cloud combination but that can happen with any aircraft. I think it's because they nearly always offer a 'moving target' as it were rather than the constant aspect of most powered aircraft. Plus I flew them for 20 odd years so I guess I'm tuned into spotting them.

[PaulisHome]

The ones I hate the most are Gliders ! They tend to be white , slow moving and circle close to cloud bases.
They are also very unlikely to be transponding and do not stay at a constant altitudes

That is not against glider pilots but a natural concern over gliders and collision risk

That's not really what you should be worrying about. My understanding is that the collision risk is almost exclusively between aircraft of the same class - gliders tend to hit gliders, powered aircraft hit powered aircraft. I guess it's because the operating profiles are different, and collisions tend to happen where there's a high density (in the circuit, gliders in thermals and so on).

A quick search of the AAIB reports database, looking for the keyword "collision", shows about 9 power-power mid airs since 2000, and 3 glider-glider ones. There's only one power-glider, and that was the Tutor near Oxford a couple of years back.

Paul

[mary meagher]

The glider was hit from behind, it was flying in a straight line at the time, as recorded on its datalogger. The power pilot in the Tutor was flying aerobatics in a very busy area, near Didcot, and furthermore was unable to perform a good lookout because of a physical condition that prevented turning his head....

The glider pilot was able to escape by parachute. The RAF investigated very thoroughly and so did the AAIB, read the reports if you need more detail.

[mary meagher]

Pace, couple of points arise in your comments regarding gliders.

The original poster will pick up the point that gliders are often found near cloudbase. In fact if conditions are good they may not even bother to be turning in the thermal, but dolphining along a cloud street. This variation in altitude actually does make them easier to spot, as does the fact they travel in gaggles....if you see one there may be more!

Any glider pilot flying in cloud is probably a professional pilot with the latest FLARM kit. I wonder if the fright you mention with a close call in cloud may have taken place some years ago...

But basically, the glider pilot is flying a craft with superb viz, and is very aware of keeping a good lookout, because they DO fly close to each other.

Though rules of the air require power to give way to gliders, no glider pilot in his right mind would expect the power pilot to have seen him first!

[FullWings]

An important point is that if people drone along on exactly the same track and don't change their height or speed, they're setting themselves up for a "fly on the windscreen" type incident, or worse. Especially if other pilots are doing the same thing plus the state of the windscreens on a lot of GA aircraft I've seen doesn't help... :ooh:

I fly power aircraft and gliders and given their low frontal area, the density near launch sites or airspace funnels and the close proximity gliders routinely operate in, glider-on-glider events are comparatively rare, some of which is due to the reverse of the above effect. FLARM has extended the "lookout" to places you can't see, as well.

It's a shame that the laws of physics have conspired to make the most difficult target to spot the one that's most likely to hit you but that's how it is.