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4x4
29th Nov 2013, 00:30
Hi to all, just looking for some heads up info on queenstown airport, approaches, departures, WX and any general advice, to take into account. Am bringing a Gulfstream G550 down from Europe in December, and wondered if any of you may be able to provide any useful tips regarding NZQN....... I imagine it must be a fantastic location when it's SKC zero wind......but I am guessing that when it gets gnarly, this is an "interesting" place to visit.......would love to hear comments from chaps and chappesses with some local knowledge.

waren9
29th Nov 2013, 02:22
Weather can be a bit type specific, and I dont know much about the G550. Although summer, can be still quite changeable in December. The passage of strong cold fronts tend to be fast and relatively short lived. The forecast 10,000' wind (which is on the ATIS too, from memory) is a good indicator, above 40kts can be uncomfortable and above 50kt we don't go. Tailwinds down final are normal and the duty RWY can change with winds from the NW to SW quadrant.

The jet airline traffic all use RNP approaches now and would be a big advantage to you if also RNP capable. Expect some holding if weather is down a bit and they get a few arrivals at once.

VFR traffic can be busy, I recommend a good working knowledge of the VFR reporting points for your own situation awareness with their radio calls. NZQN airspace is class D, with the associated implication for separation. Tower do have a radar screen but AFAIK can't separate IFR with it. Procedural. Its easy to go outside controlled airspace in a fast shallow climb, eg beyond about 50NM north you need to be above FL250. Under that can be uncontrolled gliders.

Recommend you get on the phone to a local operator down there and also the guys in the tower. In my experience they are glad to help.

The Fighter Collection in Wanaka is worth the drive.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
29th Nov 2013, 08:27
Here is one approach......

A Pilot?s View: Queenstown, New Zealand (http://www.chonday.com/Videos/pilotnewzdalnd1)


NOT to be viewed as a "this is how its dun" exercise....
But, for the enjoyment of simply observing....and as a SLF, enjoying....

Cheers:ok:

On Track
29th Nov 2013, 09:39
The RNP approaches are available only to approved operators. As far as I'm aware that means only Air New Zealand, Qantas, Jetstar and Virgin.

The particular RNP procedure shown in that video is no longer used but all flying in the area is spectacular.

Windshear can be a real problem at times, but on other days you wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

The ATIS does include the forecast 2,000ft (not 10,000ft) wind.

waren9
29th Nov 2013, 10:21
thanks for the reminder on track.

the nz aip does have rnp approaches published but are annotated with caa approval reqd. if they are not avail for private ops then why are they published?

how much these differ from the other naverus approaches, i'm not sure.

Octane
29th Nov 2013, 13:28
Just watched the video. What a staggering piece...
To get a bit of perspective, what would of the minimum height above the peaks have been on the intial approach and how far away were mountains during the descending turn? The "fishbowl" lens maybe makes it all seem closer than reality?
Whatever, amazing stuff.

Cheers
Octane

On Track
29th Nov 2013, 20:56
I'm not the NZCAA but I imagine it would be open to private operators to apply for approval. I have no idea what that process involves but I suspect it would not be cost-effective unless flying frequently into NZQN.

Octane, if you want to check out terrain clearances you can go to aip.net.nz to see the plates.

There are obstacles on all sides of the field and even VFR light aircraft have to fly unconventional circuits to avoid terrain.

NZScion
30th Nov 2013, 03:15
Just to clarify, a G550 would require approval to operate at NZQN, as all ops above 5,700kg require specific approval from the airport company (source AIPNZ). You could then fly any of the VOR/DME or RNAV (GNSS) approaches published (assuming you are Cat C) without further approval, albeit to the higher minima of these approaches. To fly the RNAV (RNP) approaches requires CAANZ approval. I would suggest you contact the aerodrome management in the first instance to see if it would be worth obtaining this approval.

Yousef Breckenheimer
3rd Dec 2013, 19:15
Hi,

Cat B and higher all require ATC in attendance.

If it's blowing from the south west at altitude prepare for a rough ride in.

Southerly on the ground can create a fair bit of sink on very short finals for RW23.

If the WX is requiring inst. approaches be prepared to hold.

Have a good look at the figure-8 visual circuit pattern from a go-around into the visual circuit.

PM me for anything specific.

Cheers

4x4
10th Dec 2013, 14:33
Many thanks all for some great info , yes have now seen the video, and mighty impressive.....as it was only a two day visit, as part of the owners ongoing vacation, and not wanting to screw up his plans, it looks like we may have to give Queenstown a miss, especially as we have not got time to make applications for Special RNP provision .......thank you all.....:)

mattyj
10th Dec 2013, 18:30
Try giving ExecuJet in Wellington a call..I'm sure it's possible to negotiate a borrowed 550 rated pilot to sit in the jumpseat for your arrival into QN..honestly I've done jet approaches into there and lived there for a while..you can count the number of marginal days per anum on one hand and Saturdays are good for flying anywhere in NZ because we're all playing golf..

C525B
10th Dec 2013, 19:25
Don't be too scared of Queenstown. There are large foreign Gulfstreams, Bombardiers and Falcons on the ground there all summer long. They all use the regular RNAV approaches.

AIP New Zealand (http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZQN_45.3_45.4.pdf)

You shouldn't need to fly the RNP approaches and you would never get the approval anyway. In December the weather would rarely be below minimums for the RNAV F (Rwy 05) or G (RWY 23) approaches.

Turbulence is often present but unless the wind is 40 knots plus it doesn't get too uncomfortable.

Permissions will be arranged by your handler. Most people use Capital Jets down there. They offer a far superior service to Skycare.

If you need further advice, MattyJ is correct, try to contact Execujet in Wellington. They have operated Peter Jackson's aircraft for the last few years. He had a G550 which was often in Queenstown but has recently upgraded to a G650. Your unlikely to get one of his pilots though as I beleive they are away on Hobbit duty for all of December.

You could also try Rob Leach at Air Center One in Auckland. Some more slightly out of date (the VOR/DME approaches are no longer in use) videos are on their website.

Queenstown Approach Video I Air Center One I Flight Video I Corporate Jet ground handling I Auckland New Zealand (http://www.aircenterone.co.nz/flight-videos.php)

If you need any further advice send a let me know. I've flown Citations in and out of Queenstown for the last 10 years.

envoy
10th Dec 2013, 22:33
4x4 - a shame you are not going there now. I took a G550 in there back in Feb 2010. Flying in and out of there made me feel like a pilot for a change!

We used Air Center One in Auckland for handling. Although they were not physically located in Queenstown, they coordinated everything on our behalf and provided a central point of contact for fuel/parking/transport/etc. They emailed us a sheaf of documents for flight prep, including topographic charts and VFR diagrams to allow us to visualise and plan the arrival manoeuvres. This information was far more informative than what was available in Jepps. They also sent us a copy of the NZCAA source documentation, which was a helpful reference. We also hit up Google Earth to get a feel for the look of the place.

ATC was in attendance, and we had learnt in advance that arrivals were during daylight only. ATC was very helpful - we were able to talk to them an hour out of Queenstown, when they confirmed our understanding of local procedures. They also recommended the best approach on the day and provided clear traffic advice. Big thumbs up to ATC for their proactive attitude and solid advice.

You don't need the RNP approaches to get in - although it would be very nice to have. We flew a VOR/DME arc and final toward the north east, broke visual over the lake then manoeuvred inside the crater/valley/fishbowl to land on 23L. I recall that the VOR/DME was not in the FMS, so we flew it green (raw) data with a manually constructed overlay to help situational awareness. Gotta love programming a DME arc in the Honeywell FMS... not!

The manoeuvre onto 23L was not for the faint-hearted, as we had to turn inside the bowl clear of hills that were above our altitude, whilst judging a descent path to the runway clearing a couple of smaller hills inside. It was an uncomfortable feeling to go belly up to a hill during the turn to final - and I found myself twisting and turning in the cockpit, craning my neck over the side window sill so I could keep visual with the terrain. We flew fully configured to best manage the turn radius and to give us maximum brain space as we thought our way around. There is also a steep escarpment to the left of finals on 23, which can produce nasty mechanical turbulence in southerly winds. As you roll out onto final the escarpment infringes the approach path, so the EGPWS can get twitchy.

We were lucky to have relatively favourable winds late afternoon - but we ended up carrying a few knots extra for the anticipated gusts and mech turbulence. The runway is narrower than normal so visual cues can be deceptive - I used the HUD to set up a GPA coincident with the PAPI (3.2 degrees) and put the velocity vector on the aim point to back up the aspect/power/rate of descent/airspeed picture that I saw.

After all of that... handling was friendly. NZ Quarantine were thorough as expected, like a dose of salts. Queenstown was awesome... I wish we had more time on the ground there. definitely a destination I will go back to with the family.

If your boss changes his mind and you need more info, drop me a PM...

Safe flying