RAF Air Engineer Branch

[Avtur]

With the Tri-Star fleet nearing retirement, and the Nimrods, VC-10, and C-130K fleets having exited stage left; the operational flying element of the Air Engineer Branch will rest on the shoulders of a small E3-D fleet.

As an ex-Air Eng, I was wondering what the future holds for those wishing to remain in the Service, and who are not part of the E3-D emporium? Is the Service making any attempt to find them other equally responsible/challenging posts, or is it making it “difficult” to remain in? Is re-branching to Loadie generally available; is it offering palatable options to leave for those deemed “surplus to Service requirements”, or has the issue not been adequately addressed (if at all)?

I would love to hear what the Grand Plan is for the remaining members of the Branch, and perhaps (I hope), hear some war stories and anecdotes from the pprune Air Eng fraternity, and from those that had the pleasure of our company (or not) on many great aircraft: I think our reputation, both professionally and socially was usually memorable (I’m sure Smudge has a story or three)...

To all the Air Engineers remaining in the Service, and to those who have served and left since the formation of our Branch circa 1941, the very best wishes, and happiness to you and your families: Ours was a unique Branch for many reasons, but for me, it was 27 years of paid fun.

[Davita]

Very nice post Avtur and, as one 'of the Air Eng few', may I say thank you for your kind comments.

The Air Eng branch, imo, was always going to be an issue. Unlike Bomber Command's dictum that all aircrew should be commissioned, Transport Command did not have the same attitude and the different crew ranking structure has indeed come back to haunt.
If all Air Eng's had been Commissioned Officers then they could more easily be absorbed into the Service just as Navigators were. I could never understand, when I sat back to back in a Hastings...and side by side in a VC10, why the Nav was a Flt. Lt. and I was a Flt. Sgt.

Some might say the Air Eng didn't have the couth to be commissioned but to them I respond...If they could commission (ex F/Sgt and Training Capt.) Jolly Jack Huntington of Hastings fame...why not!

In my time I broached this subject at every opportunity to whit, probably to shut me up, they sent me to OCTU, where I graduated No2.
To this day I believe they didn't want to give me the sword because my legs are short...they would need to cut the tip off and re-weld for the next graduating course.:uhoh:

I'd also love to hear anecdotes from other Air Eng's (Flt Eng's). I'll add some of my own later in an attempt to keep this thread relevant and interesting.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Can I direct you two fine gents to The Flight Engineer Association (http://flighteng.org)

Now accepting memberships from our colonial brethren as well :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

At Waddo, many years ago, the FLIGHT Engineer on the Lancaster was actually a GE WO. He had had operational experience on the Lancaster but with the post-war draw down had remustered to ground eng.

Echoing Davita's question about SNCO FE, at the same time as above, our Senior Ops Assistants or deputy Ops Officers, not sure what we called them, were all Sgt Navs. Again they had come from the 4-engined bomber force but not been offered commissions. We commissioned types would be the duty ops off when aircraft were airborne and would leg it out the door as soon as the last aircraft landed leaving the SNCO as the duty man covering QRA Ops. Something slightly odd you may think :).

Today would there be the same opportunities for highly qualified FE to transfer to GE? I would doubt it as they would either have to drop rank or block promotions for a time.

[Chugalug2]

Davita:-
If they could commission (F/Sgt and Training Capt.) Jolly Jack Huntington of Hastings fame...why not!

Why not indeed! As a proud apprentice of Jolly Jack, that pride was never so great as when I had managed somehow to put a Hastie down on all three points simultaneously having called "Cut", for Captain Jack to say "F...ing Sow's Ear, Lad, I have control", as he took over to roll. :ok:

The point was of course that it was my landing, as against non-tactical ones which were only mine if we bounced or crunched, rather than the Engineer's if we kissed on following the call to "Slow Cut". :{

If it is any consolation, of all the Flight Deck 'trades' that I missed after changing to two pilot operation (on going Civvie), it was that of the Flight Engineers that I missed most (especially when the PRV stuck closed when failing to start a RR Spey on a 1-11 on a dark wet night away from base).

Joni Mitchell:-
‘You Don’t Know What You've Got 'till It’s Gone’

[Davita]

Pontius quotes "Today would there be the same opportunities for highly qualified FE to transfer to GE? I would doubt it as they would either have to drop rank or block promotions for a time."

I would suggest that the GE ranks are so specialized that an Air Eng would generally not be a good fit, except with extensive and expensive re-training.

I was a near retirement F/E with an airline when its future purchase of A/C indicated the demise of the F/E. Some of the younger and eager F/E's were offered pilot training. I think this was a better fit as the F/Es function on advanced commercial jets was more like a pilot than as an engineer. Some of our senior Captains and Crew Managers were previously Flight Engineers.

btw, on this forum is there a quote function instead of copy/paste?

[Davita]

Good response chugalug...if I recall jolly Jack was not an advocate of wheelies...and, no matter the call from the pilot flying, the tail wheeled Hastings had to be positioned so the pilot (excuse my pre-commission language) couldn't see sh*t.
For those not knowing the Hastings, out of the side window, the Air Eng could see how far the stbd wheel was in the air and pulled the throttles off accordingly....despite the pilot screaming 'CUT!' or more casually 'slow cut' or praying 'slooowww cuuut'..... and waiting for the bounce!

As chug says the co-pilot was never credited by Jack...or hardly ever, so your landing, I suspect, must have been a classic.
However, his training produced some mighty fine transport pilots that I have had the privilege of flying with, for many years, after my tours on Hastings.

[gr4techie]

When I was flown in a 10 Sqn Voyager, I think they had an Air Eng operating the air to air refuelling console? So maybe there still is niche operational flying posts lurking out there for FE's?

[Party Animal]

No-one has said it yet, so I may as well be the first:

There will be a lot of ugly fat women around the world seriously upset by the demise of the Air Eng brotherhood! :ok:

[Motleycallsign]

"There will be a lot of ugly fat women around the world seriously upset by the demise of the Air Eng brotherhood! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif"

And a few of the prettier ones breathing a sigh of relief no doubt!!!:)

[Brian 48nav]

Jolly Jack,


There was a story doing the rounds that Jack was sent, kicking and screaming, to Jurby to learn how to be an Hofficer - but on day one he was bawled out by a drill corporal, to whom Jack replied, 'Fook Off'.
Back to Colerne or wherever he went!


On the next occasion he was persuaded to attend, he went with strict instructions from his boss, staish, AOC and all, to quietly keep his cool!

[Avtur]

Thanks TBT for the link; now registered.

BTW Party Animal; fat ugly woman are still fair game; once an Eng, always an Eng.

[NutLoose]

As a Licenced engineer it was a couple of weeks to convert to Air Eng( think 3 ) I knew one that did onto the Tristar (Civi) he was an Air Eng until they phased them out (about a year) then they sponsored and paid for his ATPL complete.

[Party Animal]

Avtur - respect! ;)

[Davita]

nutloose quotes "Civvies go from GE to Air Eng in a couple of weeks" Then we must have been dummies in the RAF.

From being an ex Halton Apprentice, followed by 5 years working at all levels of GE, I applied for Air Eng as advertised. We all went through the same selection process to select Officers and Aircrew, at RAF Biggin Hill.

No matter our base fitter skills, those selected all spent a number of months at a training establishment near Blackpool....(RAF Weeton?) learning airframe and engine theory and practice. That was tough...it was summer in Blackpool!
This was followed by a similar time at RAF Melksham for Electrical and Instrument training. Swindon...not so great!
Depending on the aircraft we were selected to crew...I went on Hastings, others went on Beverly and Shackletons, determined the amount of time we waited for a conversion to type course. I think Hastings at Colerne was the longest as I did so many supernumery crew flights, being instructed by line Air Engs to see how it was done....they said I could have graduated there and then. The one consolation offered was those like me, under the rank of Sgt., were promoted to acting Sgt.
The final act was conversion at RAF Thorney Island and night sorties at RAF El Adem in Libya.

The total time was about a year before we graduated and got our proper stripes/wing, and posted to a Sqn. I went to Changi and straight into a war zone as 'confrontasi' with Indonesia had just started...and was shot at on a drop zone near Kuching...I had volunteered for Changi hoping to get a tan!

When I converted to the VC10, courtesy of BOAC at Cranebank, our class had 2 BOAC F/Es. They were embarrassed to be consistantly at the bottom of each phase class results. However, they excelled when it came to operating the simulator. I'd been on Hastings previously...and never before been in a simulator.

Later, to get my civilian CAA Flight Engineer licence, I had to sit an exam based on the BOAC VC10 A/C and Aviation Law. The only deference given to my experience was my log book time...and the RAF only count T.O to Land...... whereas Commercial Flt Eng's count chock to chock.

So to respond to nutloose comment at the front of this post....in the 1960s-1975 did discrimination prevent military aviators from easily joining civilian aviation?
Anyone have evidence?

[Blacksheep]

I don't know about re-mustering in today's RAF, but in the civilian world the standard crew now is two pilots and it won't be long before one of them is made redundant. ;)

When at Big Airways in the late 70s they were shutting down the B707 and VC10 fleets. There were no F/E vacancies in the Tristar and B747 fleets but many 747-200s on order. Narrow-body F/E's were then given the option to convert to cabin crew pending delivery of the new B747-200s and two of my friends took that option. When they reached the top of the list to convert to B747 F/E they declined and continued as FAs. More perks, apparently.

[Cornish Jack]

Capt Jack's 'blood change' at the Jurby Rupert factory was hugely mirth-producing at the time. It seemed highly unlikely that he would pass, although his 'oppo', Johnny Loveridge was thought to have a sporting chance.
The fact was that the two of them were an embarrassment to 'officialdom' at the time as our Lords and Masters had decreed that ONLY Ruperts could be in charge of large aircraft, yet here were two of the indisputably best qualified instructors, Jack on Hastings and Johnny on BOTH Hastings and Bevs!! Initial fudge was to introduce the concept of 'Training Captains' but ultimately it had to be the 'retread' route.
One of Jack's attempts at 'social improvement' came when the first female Loadmasters were stationed at Dishforth. We were all warned to modify our language (a much different world then!). Jack was a regular in the evening bridge sessions in the Mess and was overhead to remark, after an unfortunate play - " Dash it partner, you've trumped my :mad: ace!!" Could well be apocryphal but very Huntingdon-esque.

[moggiee]

Davita: don't forget that when BA started retiring Tristars, quite a number of their FEs went through pilot training at BAe Flight Training, Prestwick and subsequently continued their BA careers on aircraft such as the 757.

If there is any justice, any Eng wishing to gain a commission should be offered a place on the SERE* course and then a place in a suitable branch (including pilot training if appropriate). It would be crazy to throw away all that airmanship and experience, especially as ex-FEs make excellent multicrew pilots, by and large (as do ex-cabin crew in my experience).

(* Do they still call it SERE? Without wishing to insult anyone who has done what we called "The Vicars and Tarts Course", there really should be no need to make experienced NCO aircrew do a full IOT, should there?)

.

[Avtur]

Moggiee, I think only Master Aircrew were qualified for the SERE Commissioning Cse. Not sure what the current policy is for Commissioning NCA into other (non-flying) Branches or for Pilot, if that option even exists currently.

[Avtur]

Talking of pilots...On the Kipper fleet, we used to get the occasional fast jet pilot who was curious to see what the Nimrod was all about. I guess it was really an excuse to sample the curries, doughnuts, and DCS.

On the transit back from the on-task area, the Captain/1st pilot would invite the FJ pilot to have a fly. The brief was that the Nimrod was very unstable at high level (well FL280 ish back then), and speed control was critical, with a plus/minus 2 KIAS tolerance from the target speed. Oh how we giggled as I tested the stall warning stick shakers whenever the speed reduced by 2 kts, and then briefly “tested” the Mach trimmer (aircraft pitches up slightly with a horn sounding and big red light) as he hastily powered up, struggling to control the speed.

It was always great to see the Noel Edmunds “Gotsha” expression once they realised what was going on. Not sure the back end was ever too pleased though.

[fergineer]

Cant imagine any of us doing that Avtur := Now what was that CB we pulled to stop the back end doing their simulated tactical work!!!!!????? always ended up coming out of D807 early!!!!

[moggiee]

Moggiee, I think only Master Aircrew were qualified for the SERE Commissioning Cse. Not sure what the current policy is for Commissioning NCA into other (non-flying) Branches or for Pilot, if that option even exists currently.

Whatever the rules are, they are capable of being re-written where appropriate :)

[smujsmith]

It's certainly sad that the end of the FE trade is approaching. From my time as a Ground Engineer on the C130K fleet I know of many who were worthy of the soubriquet " Engineer", some less so, as were some of my fellow GEs (perhaps myself included). I do believe though that the Flight Engineers job and the Ground Engineers job (I'm not talking a ground tradesman, but a trained 4 trade Ground Engineer) were as alike as a Pilot and a Chef. The Flight Engineers operated the systems, most had a spectacular understanding of the systems they operated and had my full respect for their diagnostic abilities. Having landed,however, the job of organising the spares, the hire of the crane for the prop change etc was often best left to the old bloke with no hair who usually resided in a hammock down the back. Horses for courses perhaps, but I'm not too sure that a man who had obtained and maintained Flight Engineer status would be happy to become a "flight hammock dweller". To all the Flight Engineers I send respects, a hope that you all fall on your feet and a big thanks to you all for keeping me alive for years.

Smudge:ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

Smujsmith, I completely agree - apart from the 'spectacular understanding' bit. I just don't know how I managed to blag my way through all those years!

Most GEs were the canine's gonads as far as I was concerned as I could keep my flying gloves clean for eating sarnies and so on and so forth.

It'll be a sad day when the last FE goes, but the same could be said for all the other trades too.

My best wishes to all - Dengue Dude (aka Brian May).

[smujsmith]

Hey Dude (excuse my familiarity) don't take it bad (as some long haired songsters once sang), I'm sure that all of the Flight Engineers who I served with had to pass their regular checks, hence the respect for their abilities, and you could have been one of them. Having enjoyed my time as a Ground Engineer, it would be dishonest to suggest that any of the Aircrew lacked in capability or professional competence. The first Flight Engineer I ever met was a chap called Bert Poulton. He was part of the RAF Colerne Flight Test Crew circa 1971, and knew more about Albert than I ever did or will. Anyone who can take a few minutes while the rest of his crew are waiting (Sqdn Ldr Captain in a rush to get to the pub) post flight test, to explain to a newly qualified Jnr Tech why the 2g pull up and climb was needed to test the safety valve after major servicing is someone worthy of respect, and appreciated. Cost savings and efficiency are truly marvellous things, but sometimes achieved to the detriment of the old "esprit de corps" etc. I hoped that when the service finally waived goodbye to the Flight Engineer, they would have ensured that current career commitments were honoured, I'm sure that many would be competent in other aspects of Aircrew employment. I just hope that the lads are not shafted, as is often the case.

Smudge :ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

My first flight was with Bert, when I was an SAC on Brown team at Colerne. That's why the references to a prop change made me smile . . .

A few years later, I ended up guesting a few times for the Airtest Crew. That made me smile too.

I was happy to have FE as a career (the noun) but accept its inevitable demise. Have fun, they still need 'Hammock Dwellers', and even have lady ones too apparently, 'Black Harry' was never a lady (when I knew him).

[Avtur]

Fergi,

I think it was Z3 P1 F37 (or thereabouts) for the very annoying ACT system that only the AEOs seemed to enjoy. I believe there used to be a china graph circle around that fuse for use in emergencies!!!!

[fergineer]

Thanks for that I just knew where it was and when extra DCS came up front I knew it was time to pull the fuse!!!!!

[Avtur]

BTW, if you were that fine chap who taught me at FYN in 85 on Applied Flight, then very best wishes to you. If you are not, then best wishes anyway, and hope life in NZ is as good as Canada.

[Avtur]

I just hope that the lads are not shafted, as is often the case


Indeed; hence my reason for this post in trying to find out what the "disposal" plan is (if any).

Your kind words about the Branch are appreciated, but the FE/GE relationship was one of the main reasons the ME fleets were as serviceable as they could be, given some of the circumstances and support.

[Avtur]

GD107

I too fell foul of the latter on the ITC (as did quite a few), but survived due to a boss who was clearly more sightful than he was. Completely understand your sentiments: I saw some great people and potentially first class engineers chopped needlessly due to the limitations of those who thought they were perfect (and irreproachable) in that "instructional" position. There was likely similar read-across to other Branches at FYN in the 80's. Oddly enough, once I graduated to the "real" world a year or so later, it became completely obvious why those individuals were there in the first place.



Best wishes.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Hmmm, interesting. I wonder who SS and CR are? Well after my time in ITC.

TCF

[fergineer]

Hi Avtur I am most certainly the same Fergi..... Yep NZ is treating me very well thanks weather is very very nice.

[fergineer]

TCF, am racking my sole brain cell to try and work out who SS and CR were.

[Dengue_Dude]

Think the C might be Colin . . . but unable S at the moment . . .

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I now look back at Finningly ITC with a smile on my face, and, I must thank Aunty Betty for funding my initial steps into the world of aviation. My Flt Cdr was Jock Penman; a thoroughly tough nut, but a very fair and decent bloke. As with all groups of professionals, there will always be the odd one or two who will slip through the net and cause mayhem whilst climbing the ladder to their perceived platform of stardom.

Without any shadow of doubt I can say that 99.9% of everyone I met as a FE (or Air Eng) were true professionals and that this is, perhaps, testament to the quality of training that we received at both Topcliffe and Finningly.

I believe that the best (RAF) aviation years (within my timeline) were the 70's and 80's where we still had the financial backing to fly training sorties to all parts of the globe. Sadly, such things as H&S, new rules & regulation, politics, and finance etc, brought about many changes that weren't palatable and that the thin end of the wedge was firmly in-place when I demobbed to BA in 1987.

As a civilian (QinetiQ) FE I was very fortunate to, very briefly, return to fly the RAF TriStar and it was a joy to be able to fly with the RAF boys again. Great memories of a fabulous aeroplane!

My civilian FE flying career has now, just like the military, run its course and, without any three-crew aeroplanes remaining available, I've been fortunate enough to maintain an aviation related desk job. Had I not been stubborn to keep searching for FEs jobs around the planet I should have studied for a pilot position whilst I was young enough to do so. So, that's my message to all of you younger FEs... take a firm grip of your youthful brain cells and get sat in the right-hand seat. You've got everything going for you... do it!

TCF

[Davita]

You guys are confusing me..what are all those hyrogliphics like ITC ATC etc....did the Air Eng morph into something else or were these jobs suited for grounded Air Eng's.

The RAF Air Engineer was a product of WW2 Bombers and the then function was more like a flying crew chief, or a ships engineer, than what eventually emerged. Due to technical/physical complexities, in those days, the emphasis then was on 'how to fix' the equipment whilst airborne rather than on 'how to support' the aeroplane in its complete task, is today. The multi-crew system meant everyone was a specialist.

The RAF around late 50/early 60 decided to expand Transport Command...but a missing ingredient regarding the A/C selected, was...'What is an Air Engineer and, in light of this advanced technology, what should be his new function?'.

Sqn Ldr Dave Nelson and Fl Lt Jim Mutsaars (both Air Engs) and others whose names, sadly, I've forgotten, were tasked to define this new role and lay out a training syllabus for the VC10 and Belfast. They generally followed the Britannia and Comet fleets whose Air Eng's consisted of direct entry aircrew from around 1950 and National Servicemen who extended service and, of course, some of the ex-wartime stalwarts, still medically fit; and some import of information from BOAC.
The C130 fleet were originally trained in the USA on type.
On Coastal Command.....I have no knowledge.
Thus became the training that I 'endured', about which I wrote in a previous post in this thread.
My colleague John King, after graduating from OCTU, was sent to RAF Topcliffe to 'I believe' set up a formal Air Eng Training School. The students would often visit BZN to get a 'feel' for their new job description and I was their host on many visits.
Our emphasis was to advise they would be system operators and not simply fixers...so learning all aspects of flying was as important as to how something works. We let them fly the VC10 Sim to get a feel for the pilots job...good fun!
Some AEops were even re-trained to be Air Eng, which was also a good fit.

I left the RAF in 1974 so never saw the transition from shiny VC10 to tanker...did that make a difference to the type of training Air Engs received?

[goudie]

around late 50/early 60 decided to expand Transport Command...
Davitar If memory serves me correctly, I recall that on completion of my fitter's course in '57, we were invited to apply for Flt Eng selection and training but it was initially a five year tour only. Not sure what was supposed to happen after that. I suspect that those who went for it eventually became permanent F/E's

[Davita]

Goudie...I think your memory serves you well because I seem to recall the same, although I think it was short-lived.

I started on the 3rd entry of the established Air Eng program that I posted about, but I cannot recall which year that was....so long ago. I'm thinking around 1960.

Anyone else remember this, or was recruited as a short-tour Air Eng?

btw I do recall, when doing the Air Eng course, there was a requirement for NCO helicopter pilots. I applied but was told I needed to complete my current course first...I think I lost enthusiasm later.

[classjazz]

Please contact me on [email protected] re: membership of FE Association.

[fergineer]

No Dave you cannot have your filing cabinet back. All that talk about Finningley reviving memories. Hope all is well.

[smujsmith]

Fergineer,

Just to update my ancient memory, can you confirm that you may have been the. "Fergie with the beard" that I may well have enjoyed a prop change/brake unit change/air display static exhibit, and Belize LOX run (ASCOT 5070 20-27 June 93) with ? Is my memory still correct that you were the only bearded Fergie I ever met ? Or have I got the wrong Fergie ? Like Smiths, Fergies can be confusing. If it was you, what a night in the O's Mess.

Smudge:ok:

[classjazz]

goudie,

You memory serves you well. When I first thought about applying in 1962,
it WAS a 5 year tour as an FE but the catch was that you had to return to your previous trade after the 5 years. To retain rank you had of course to remain current in you old trade and I thought that it was just a bit too much for me so I delayed applying for the second time until 1965 when the MOD was obvously very short of FE's.

Thanks for your remarks fergi.
The grey cells are not what they used to be and I'm trying to remember I knew you. With me - it is "what you see is what you get nowadays"

[Dengue_Dude]

What do you mean 'used to be' Dave . . . surely, they NEVER were!!!!

Regards to Jackie ;o)

[fergineer]

Smuj I cannot tell a lie it was indeed me, still have the beard and still remember the fun times down the route. Hope life is treating you well matey.

[fergineer]

Dave I took over from you at Finningley which is why I got your filing cabinet!!!!!

[Tony P-J]

Hi everyone, glad to hear that there are still a number of us alive and still 'reasonably' well!
You might be interested in looking at Wikipedia under Flight Engineer, in which it credits it's information to the very comprehensive 'History of the Air Engineer' which was written by Air Engineer Flt Lt Derek Stringman back in 1963.
A copy was given to every squadron in the RAF that employed Air Engineers at the time, with a few left over that were given to special friends.
Unfortunately there is no ISBN or publisher shown in the book and so it is almost impossible to get hold of now. I have a copy, which is unfortunately un-scanable, without taking it to pieces, but if anyone knows better they are welcome to give it a go.


Regards to you all
Tony P-J

[grizz]

Tony, think you may have the date wrong? Fergie and I were instructing at Finningley in 83 when copies of the book were being handed out. Unfortunately although I read it, (an excellent read) I didn't keep hold of a copy-over to you Fergie!

[OmegaV6]

Chapter 11 of the book refers to activities in March 1983 in the past tense, and activities due in 1984 in the future tense.. (p108) which fits in with my memories of its "production" in late 83.... I don't think it was ever "published" in the usual sense of the word, as it was a "private printing" to pre-ordered numbers IIRC.

I have a copy right here, and also think that trying to "flatten" it to scan it would destroy the binding ..


mmm.... Fergie & Grizz "instructing" ... was that down the Salutation ??? or was Grizz still learning to run pre the "frontal lobotomy" course at Cranwell ....

:):):)

[grizz]

Me....run....???? :rolleyes:

[Dengue_Dude]

I've just checked my copy of Derek's book (we were Sergeants together on 30 Sqn) and it hasn't got a date on it.

I have the facility to have the book stripped and possibly scanned into an electronic file.

Is there any appetite for this if I get it done?

Derek gave me my copy and there's no copyright, personally I think he'd have been happy to perpetuate its distribution.

[fergineer]

Omega now where was the Salutation????? was that left outside the main gate!!!!!

[fergineer]

Yep Grizz I agree 1983 would have been a better date, Derek was still at Finningley then. Just checked have 2 pristine copies here.

[grizz]

One must be mine!:)
DD, I would be interested in an electronic copy.

[fergineer]

Will bring it over next time I am in the UK.

Nice to Hear from you again Tony hope all is well

[Top Bunk Tester]

How about pushing the electronic copy over to the Association for publication on the website for members? Then all will see it :ok:

[mad_jock]

There will be a lot of ugly fat women around the world seriously upset by the demise of the Air Eng brotherhood!

You always hear this said but the couple I know have quite attractive wifes.

How ugly and fat are we talking about?

[Party Animal]

mj,

From my experience of several thousand hours flying with Air Eng's, the common theme west of 10W appeared to be 'go ugly early' and to 'explore the full envelope of waistline challenged women'

If you know what I mean...:ok:

P.S. Avtur refers in #12!

[mad_jock]

Aye but what we talking

90,100,110,120 kg.

looks like Alex Salmond?

[Top Bunk Tester]

Normally always let the GE have first pick, that way you could always ensure there was someone worse off than yourself, this applied to him and his poor unfortunate :}

[grizz]

Not wishing to incriminate myself, but in an earlier life I have had the dubious pleasure of winning certain competitions whilst on det :uhoh:

[Party Animal]

Aye but what we talking

90,100,110,120 kg.

looks like Alex Salmond?


All of the above would have been a good tick! A female version of Jabba the Hut springs more readily to mind :eek:

grizz - you could start a whole new topic on the subject!

[kilwhang]

After leaving the C130 fleet I joined BA as an F/E on the B747.

One day, pre-9/11, I was happily sitting in the 'best seat in the house' when a very attractive stewardess entered the flight deck with an, equally attractive, female pax.
The female pax, after making some of the usual remarks (isn't it small in here? Do you know what ALL of these buttons do?) then turned to the cabin crew lady and asked 'Do the cabin crew sleep with the pilots?'
To which she replied 'Yes, but they stay awake with the flight engineers.'

And I remember thinking 'I'm not surprised, it takes a long time to fully explain the B747 hydraulic system'.......................

[smujsmith]

TBT,

GEs were always worse off than the Air Eng, we never had the flying pay you guys did :rolleyes:

Fergie,

Yes thanks Im as well as can be expected for someone who was once a compatriot of Mike Libby. Are you located near Auckland ? I have a good, ex Herk pal who lives there.

So, I get to the aircraft as the rest of the routes real workers arrive. The Eng and Loady, who proceed to pre flight Albert. I for my part carry out all the necessary preparations for the route, a nice trip with the first night stop St Johns, Newfie. Tool kit strapped in, hammock prepped for action, last smoke (don't even smoke these days) had, twice. On turning up on the flight deck the Air Eng was just setting up and asked me to go back out and clear him for a GTC start. No probs, GTC starts and shuts down. Back to the Flight deck and ask the Air Eng " Why do you start the GTC? ". Our man says, "well, you just want to know that it's going to work when you need it." Well, we all know what's coming, GTC fails to start with the full compliment of Her Majesties finest up front, a 3 hour delay followed and our first nightstop became Leuchars ISTR, with a fuel stop at Gander for Griffis AFB the next day. I've always respected the wisdom of the man in the middle seat, but then, I always was a sucker for rumour.

Smudge :ok:

[Top Bunk Tester]

Yes, Libby was present at the K Bash at BZN last month, good to see him again after all this time, and yes he still has a medallion even if a little smaller these days :cool:

[fergineer]

Kilwhang nice to hear you are still about.....
Libby is still going ? Was he in white?

[Dengue_Dude]

We now have a viable electronic copy of Derek's book and I'm in contact with the Association . . .

[fergineer]

Good on you Brian

[mad_jock]

All of the above would have been a good tick! A female version of Jabba the Hut springs more readily to mind

Obviously a group of men that demand respect then.

Is it something that is a natural instinct within them all?

Is it something which was actively looked for in recruitment?.

Is it trained for during training?

Is there any differences between fleets i.e is it just a herk thing or was the kipper fleet the same?.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Not wishing to incriminate myself, but in an earlier life I have had the
dubious pleasure of winning certain competitions whilst on det http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

That must have been the "Shackleton" aftershave Grizz!

Dengue_Dude (aka Brian), good on yer for making the electronic copy. I'd appreciate a copy of it because I've lost mine in the many moves I've made around the planet.

Derek Stringman was an all around top bloke and instructor. During my own K Groundschool, he, and Derek Jeans, were both very enthusiastic C130K Ground Instructors who took great pride in their work.

As a very junior Air Eng I recall sitting in a Girlie Bar, in Berlin, where I was sat at the end of the line of five guys (Herc crew) drooling at what was going-on on-stage. After several beers some German bird, of large proportions, propositioned the skipper (in German) who, in turn, declined her offer and waived her onto the next bloke, the co-pilot. He made the same gesture and passed her onto the Nav. The Nav passed her onto the Loadie who, in turn, passed her onto me... at the end of the queue! I got led off down a corridor and up a couple of steps into a small room with a bathtub surrounded by heavy drapes. I'd got my kit off and slid into the bath; which was when the curtains opened... onto the stage! Bugger!!

TCF

[Trumpet_trousers]

Girlie Bar, in Berlin,

...sounds like Mon Cherie to me, which I may, or may not, be familiar with...:ok:

1988, 40th Anniversary of the Berlin Airlift, weekend in Berlin.... Sqn clerk in the bath... kitty lifted from the skipper's shirt pocket... Ah yes, it all comes flooding back!!

[Lancman]

' evening D D, I'd be very interested in a copy of the "History of the Air Engineer" if you could let me have one.

It's of interest that when I started my Flight Engineer's course at RAF St. Athan in 1950 it was an 18 month course but that this was "abridged" to 6 months because it was thought that the new aircraft with which the RAF was to be equipped wouldn't need an Engineer and recruitment ceased. I went on to complete a 42 year flying career, 2/3 RAF and 1/3 civilian. It seems that the Air Ministry was no more efficient at forecasting future requirements then than the Ministry of Defence is now, more than 60 years later.

[smujsmith]

TheChitterneFlyer,

Definitely Mon Cherie, had a few visits myself, including the bath:hmm:

[Dengue_Dude]

Send me a PM with your email John.

Without being too personal, I would prefer the distribution of this book be done via the Flight Engineer's Association.

I make no apologies for saying that does not apply to friends I've known since becoming an FE over 40 years ago.

PM your email and I'll either email the 8+ Mb file or create a shared folder in Dropbox.

[classjazz]

Fergineer
Pse send me PM - sorry for the delay in getting to you

[Dengue_Dude]

Dave, Fergi and spouse are currently walkabout in Nepal.

He's due back home on 25th January. I don't want you think he's being ignorant and rudely ignoring you (he is, of course ignorant, but would probably reply because he's a bit of a softy - especially towards 'old folks' :p:p:p:p).

Best wishes for a Happy New Year to you and Jackie.

Brian

[woptb]

Knew Mick at Lyneham & St Mawgan,where, someone, who bore a striking resemblance had a 'miniscule' part featured in a production called "One for the ladies" ?
Also taught me the correct procedure for wearing a shirt 'must' include dropping trousers to ankle height,to acheive a positive 'tuck' !

[classjazz]

Thanks Brian,
I've been away and missed the first posts on this matter and had missed the start of this thread. I will live in hope that he sees my post and does send me the required info. Unless of course he gets it from you.
You can also send me an email or PM.

Regards

To you both

DD

[Dengue_Dude]

Dave, not clear what you want 'info' wise. If it's Derek's book (in which you are thanked by Derek), let me know which email address you're using.

Fergi has confirmed he'll be back on 26th Jan.

All the best.