Question from parent

[Robins]

Hi,

My son has been offered a place on the CTC Qatar Wing scheme with the aim of achieving MPL. I am given to understand that the MPL is merely a route to co-pilot. Others claim that it can become a full ATPL after 1500 hours with no additional training costs.

Is "a frozen ATPL the only sensible route to go" sound advice?

What is the reputation of CTC as compared with OAA and FTE?

Much appreciated.

[A320baby]

Hi There,

If your son has been offered a place on the Qatar scheme, I would take this opportunity with both hands :)

From my understanding and please don't quote me on this, Once the 1500 hours are obtained, the full ATPL will be issued.

Good luck and congratulations to your son

[k737]

An MPL will become an ATPL upon 1500 hours and completion of the relevant skills test, in exactly the same way that a "frozen ATPL" becomes an ATPL.

I'm led to believe the only risk with an MPL is that your licence isn't much use for another type. So for example if you lost your job with Qatar on the A320 you may run into issues finding work on another aircraft elsewhere. I could be wrong on this though as I completed my training whilst the MPL was still in development.

My gut feeling would be that it's a great opportunity and the company aren't going to be disappearing anytime soon, realistically most people wouldn't move on from their first jet job until they had 1500 hours anyway.

With regards CTC v Oxford etc, there's plenty written on these forums but my perspective is they are much of a muchness. I trained at one of them and I would probably be in exactly the same position had I chosen either of the other two. The main consideration is how good they are at helping you find work once you complete the training. At the end of the day, you leave with the same piece of paperwork and however much work you put in trying to find a flying job, they are still the best placed to help you. Considering your son would be entering a mentored scheme, that takes away some of that decision making.

Good luck to your son!

[RTN11]

You're not so much tied to the type, but to the company all the training will be Qatar specific, and not transferable to another airline. You will never go solo, all dual or multi pilot experience.

Once you get the full atpl it's exactly the same as if you went the regular modular route, but everything up to that point is very different.

[Captain_Bolt]

From my understanding the pass rate is 50%. If you fail you can't retry. Correct me if I'm wrong, or if you can retry when you are from the MPL. I had the confirmation from Qatar that if a new joiner fails, he/she won't have a second chance.

Wow, this is really quite something.

So, you do the course, but then AFTER you've done the course you need to undergo PAT tests. That is really risky. I can't find this on any publically available material though.

[no sponsor]

I'd be very careful about joining Qatar. Read some of the threads elsewhere on this site about the day-to-day standards and experiences of people there. It's not exactly the stalwart of an an open-safety culture.

[cockney steve]

I would counsel you to be extremely wary of replies by "i'm new here" respondents.

you have only a 50% chance of securing a job after making a huge investment......that's literally the odds of a coin-toss.
Ifyour son turns out to be a natural "sky-god" with the right personality to be a close fit with the proposed country, it's people, culture, climate and ethics,- the odds will be considerably shortened....feel lucky ? want to punt evens on 100,000 pounds?....if so, -go for it.

Were I in your position and determined to pay a huge sum for a Commercial license, Id seriously consider the "independent " route.......the basic license will be acceptable to any decent putative employer, if you pay for a type-rating, it's yours you can take it, and your basic skillset to any other airline.....If you're that good and there actually is a world-wide shortage of Pilots when this young man "graduates", he'll find ready employment.

Reading these Aviation forums (Fora?) one quickly forms the view that the only shortage is of trainees wit several thousand quid to punt on a dream.


Be very very cautious and research thoroughly before commiting to that sort of debt with such a huge risk of most of it being money down the drain.

Not a retired pilot, so the above advice could well be worth what you paid for it.

on the other hand, it may save you from a "penny wise, 100K foolish " decision.

[Bealzebub]

My son has been offered a place on the CTC Qatar Wing scheme with the aim of achieving MPL. I am given to understand that the MPL is merely a route to co-pilot. Others claim that it can become a full ATPL after 1500 hours with no additional training costs.

This link (http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/ops-infra/itqi/Documents/Guidance%20Material%20and%20Best%20Practices%20for%20MPL%20I mplementation.pdf) to an IATA document from a couple of years ago might help to provide a little background to the subject of MPL's. Also this (albeit promotional) video might provide a little more visual background. The MPL is a structured programme that is designed to lead directly into an airline operation. The programme should be tied to an airline partner as an integral part of the training programme. It is indeed intended to be "a route to co-pilot" however the word "merely" suggests that you may think this is as far it goes? It does become a full ATPL after 1500 hours, subject to the same criteria as a CPL/IR (fATPL) does at the same point. It is not designed as a PPL (Private pilots license) or an unrestricted CPL (Commercial pilots licence) and as such it will not bestow those "privileges" if that is being sort. It is one of the fast track career programmes, and is intended to be a transition directly from ab-initio flight training into airline operations. Although not new, it is still a licensing regime that is in an industrial infancy. As more companies emerge from recession, so it is now starting to expand as more countries and large airlines within those countries introduce MPL based cadet programmes.

Is "a frozen ATPL the only sensible route to go" sound advice?
No! This route has always been the traditional route for cadets and pilot aspirants. However the transition from ab-inito training into airline flying has never been an easy one. The traditional programmes usually go through the step up licencing stages. Those are PPL, CPL/IR, and eventually ATPL. Some of the fast track courses offered by specific schools who may have affiliations with airline partners, have fATPL courses that also skip the PPL stage. The argument in favour of the traditional programmes, is that there is a more flexible license to be obtained. However if the goal is a fast track programme into an airline, then the reality is that there needs to be a realistic chance of making that post ab-initio transition through a tied programme or through a programme that those airlines use for the induction of cadet pilots.

Both methods are currently in use, and different airlines will gear their cadet programmes to one or other or both of them. If there is a conditional offer from any of them, then the method is of less importance than the goal. Obviously this is to be considered with all the usual risk warnings and health and wealth caveats.

What is the reputation of CTC as compared with OAA and FTE? They are one of what I term "the big three," in respect of UK based integrated training providers for most of the larger airlines that offer cadet programmes. My company has used them for 15 years or so now, and we have generally been pleased with the end product. We continue to source our cadets here, and now do so as both an MPL cadet scheme and an integrated graduate cadet scheme. For all practical purposes there is no difference for the cadet, other than they are tied to the airline for the advanced portion of their training.

All three of these schools have an established reputation. All three of them (and only these three) have been selected by British airways for the last couple of years for their Future Pilot Programme (cadet scheme.) BA currently utilize the traditional integrated fATPL training regime, although in my opinion it is likely they will also transition towards MPL in the future.

Those would be my answers to the questions you have posed. As an observation, I would suggest that the Qatar cadet scheme is a serious player, and likely to be a very good springboard for most of the successful applicants. However the culture and realities of life in some of these countries can throw up their own unique frustrations. For example, there may be long delays in moving to the airline and actually starting the flight training. There are many things to consider, and plenty of resources to help you with your research.

[Stalker_]

Just a Question, with an MPL you never go solo, does that mean you don't carry out normal flight training in a SEP and gain a CPL?


Just a side note, 737 Pilot, heard of MPL but never researched it

[zondaracer]

Stalker, you are pretty much correct. in the MPL course, a student flies small aircraft for only about 50 hours, and the rest is on simulators. At the end, the student is issued a MPL with a type rating. They are not issued a commercial license. The MPL allows them to fly the aircraft on which they are type rated, in the specific company that they have applied their training, in a multicrew environment only. If they want single engine or multiengine privileges to fly solo, they will have to undertake additional training and flight tests.

[momo95]

I'm not as fond of the qatar wings programme now as I was before. Spending in excess of 105,000 for the chance to join qatar subject to a pat test at the very end is madness.
What happens to the cadet if he/she were to fail ? The mpl is a great thing but the risks posed to the cadet for certain airlines need to be reassessed. The question I really need answered is what's the cadet's second option if for whatever reason they don't pass the pat test first time ? and CTC have avoided answering it to me by saying I would have to contact the training department but then said that nobody from it was available.
I'm aware that a pat test must be passed at every airline, but do they all only offer one chance ?

[Sirijus]

An MPL holder is tied to the company they are flying with until reaching 1500hrs when it can be exchanged into an ATPL. If one fails to reach 1500hrs in that company, under special approval the person could work in another company, however I find it very unlikely that some other airline would go through all this approval process just for you. Another, more realistic option is crediting the hours towards a modular CPL course...

In my point of view, there is no better way for a pilot to train from zero to a copilot, than MPL with only let's say 240 hours. So much multi-engine multi-pilot experience and even the base training is doubled, the pilot should feel like a fish in the sea when stepping on board the aircraft for the first flight of line training. BUT the gods of aviation decided to make it that much complicated for guys who (might) fired from their jobs.. However job guarantee? mmm, tempting

[GusHoneybun]

The MPL is a licence. It is issued once the course requirements are met and the student completes their base training.
The type rating for that particular Multi engine turbine aircraft is issued at the same time.
It used to come in a nice light blue folder.
Once you reach the requirements it can be changed to a full ATPL.
The licence holds the same privileges as a modular/integrated CPL.

It is designed specifically for entry into airline operations, but it is not limited to such.
You can add a whatever sep, mep, single pilot IR, seaplane, instructor or any other type to it you like because these are ratings.

If you meet he requirements, these ratings can be added to any EASA licence.

So, you do not have to stay with the same company for 1500 hours. You could technically leave the moment you finish your last circuit of base training. This is impractical due to the financial penalties and bonds associated with these schemes.

It is another route to the RHS of an airliner. Once there, in airline ops, there is no difference between an MPL and a CPL.

[mad_jock]

I think they have to get through to passing line check on the type before everything becomes "normal" gus.

The flybe cadets that are in the unfortunate position currently had to complete line training and the ones that weren't to far along got swapped onto a normal MEP/IR course.

But that's just what I have been told by one of them and you know what FO's are like mate.

[momo95]

I think what gus is saying is that as an mpl is only valid with a TR, then technically the TR you get during training for whatever aircraft you train on makes it valid. This is still very risky business though. The main thing we need answering to is how easy one can change from an mpl to a cpl/ir during training if they failed a part (btw i understand Qatar cadets must achieve a minimum of 85% throughout ground school). I have done some research and found out it has happened where a company called sterling air dropped mpl cadets before 1500 hrs (but they already had the TR with sterling air), they had to pay about 30000 for conversion

[mad_jock]

its not only TR its also pass line training as well.

[momo95]

I finally managed to speak to someone in the know from ctc. They said the one try only pat test is only for d/e pilots. In anyhow, I suspect full details of the path ahead are in the contract you will sign and so you can make a more informed decision then. I'm still going for my selection and (fingers crossed if i pass) and i'm still not happy with qatar, the normal 'wings' route is still there with less risk of losing everything and what seems a good chance of still gaining employment.

[Piloto2011]

IMHO, MPL training ONLY if full financial responsibility assumed by airline.

If your son fails along the way, in any way, his license is nontransferable nor will it qualify him for a non-airline flying job. That's a whole lot of other opportunity out the window.

There's also a lot of stuff written about Qatar and their reporting staff culture, as well as life in Doha. I suggest you have a good read before committing.

Good luck!