IMC Rating instruction

[fireflybob]

I have an Irish (IAA) EASA Licence (ATPL) with FI Rating currently valid to teach basic instrument flying. My IR is not currently valid.

Can I teach for the (UK) IMC Rating?

Thanks for any assistance!

[nick14]

I would say no as the IAA licence doesn't have any scope to revert to an IMC. I would say that you would need the IR.

Plus you don't hold an equivalent qualification.

[S-Works]

Its a UK national rating for inclusion in UK only issued licences. I asked the CAA this very question a few weeks ago as I have a number of non UK instructors working for me and I was told unequivocally the answer was NO.

[nick14]

Bose,

Does that include IRIs with IAA licences and full IRs?

[S-Works]

I was told it could only be taught by suitably qualified UK licence holders and examined only by a UK FE with IMC examination privileges.

When I asked the reason why they said its a UK only rating.

Of course these days you never get a straight answer from anybody down there!!

beagle may have a different view as he is all things IMC but that's as I understand it at the moment.

[fireflybob]

But then presumably if I resurrect my UK National Licence with FI Rating etc I could teach for the IMC Rating?

[BEagle]

I have asked the CAA (yet again) to look at the requirements for IMCr/IR(R) instructors, now that it's 99% certain that the IR(R) will continue to be available for the next 5 years at least.

The AOPA recommendation is basically for the same qualifications as used to exist in halcyon pre-EASA days for the 'removal of no applied instrument' course/test and would lead to an 'IRI(Restricted)' Certificate. Similarly, for examiners, an FE who holds an IRI(R) certificate would be empowered to examine for the IMCr and IR(R).

[fireflybob]

Thanks Beagle.

So if I renew my UK National ATPL with SEP would that suffice to instruct for the IMC Rating as I have the FI on my IAA EASA licence or does the FI Rating also have to be incorporated in the UK National Licence?

[S-Works]

Nope, your national ATPL will only be valid on AnnexII aircraft not EASA types. As there are few or no Annex II IMC equipped aircraft and none apart from the Vulcan are cleared for IFR flight you will struggle.

[fireflybob]

Thanks bose-x, you really couldn't dream this stuff up!

So perversely when I renew my IR (on my IAA EASA licence) I will be able to instruct for the EASA Instrument Rating but not for a UK IMC Rating?

So how can I instruct for the IMC Rating?

[nick14]

Get your UK EASA ATPL back would be one method. You won't loose anything in the transfer apart from a few quid.

[BEagle]

fireflybob, you won't be able to instruct for the Part-FCL IR unless, in addition to holding a valid IR, you meet the requirements of FCL.905.FI(g), which includes the requirement for you to have completed as a student pilot the IRI training course and to have passed an assessment of competence for the IRI certificate.

It's not just a question of holding an FI certificate and an IR - there's more to it than that!

However, once you're suitably qualified under FCL.905.FI(g), I don't see why the UK CAA wouldn't accept that you may instruct for the IR(R).



(Incidentally, there are more than a few non-EASA aeroplanes which fly in IMC!!)

[S-Works]

Name them Beagle. I ran out of those before I ran out of fingers on one hand......

To my knowledge there are few and certainly not in enough numbers to be any practical use.

[fireflybob]

Beagle, thanks for that.

When I recently renewed by FI Rating (with a UK examiner) the examiner noticed that my applied IF privileges had not been transferred when I changed from a UK licence to an Irish Licence and remarked that this should have been done so this was noted on my IAA EASA application.

When my Irish EASA licence arrived it is endorsed in the remarks "FI (A) Rating NOT VALID for instruction for the Instrument Rating" - I have sent an email to IAA licensing querying this.

Practically speaking the only thing I really want to do (apart from basic instruction) is to be able to instruct for the IMC Rating but it would be nice to have the IRI on the licence.

Many years ago I was an instructor for the IR at OATS - in terms of grandfather rights does that qualify?

Life used to be so simple before all this EASA nonsense.

[BEagle]

Name them Beagle. I ran out of those before I ran out of fingers on one hand......

Apache, Bulldog, Chipmunk, Citabria, Tri-Pacer.....to name but a few.

[nick14]

Does that also extend to national licences like the NPPL?

[Whopity]

For many years holders of a FAA CFI certificate have trained pilots for a UK IMC rating at the many schools located in the USA. It has also happened in other countries. On what grounds can the CAA say that it is not acceptable for someone qualified to teach instrument flying should not teach for the IMC?

They cannot hide behind the Eurogarbage umbrella, and unless they can produce a safety case to justify their decision, they are skating on thin ice if they reject a European Licence holder who is quite entitled to teach at any UK ATO to the level of their FI certificate!

[S-Works]

All the chipmunks I know are on permit now so not eligible for IFR.

The others you have listed, a quick GINFO check reveals tiny numbers and a good few of them are permit to fly rather than national CofA. A quick check would show around 20 suitable aircraft and all seem to be in private ownership.

Not what I would describe as a viable training fleet.....

[BEagle]

Does that also extend to national licences like the NPPL?

Does what extend to the NPPL?

[Mickey Kaye]

We have a Chipmunk on our approval (rtf that is ) thats still on a C of A. And surprise surprise it flies just as well in IMC as it does in VFR.

Although I do agree its not ideal for IMC training.

[nick14]

The restriction of UK only FIs?

Ie can an IAA FI teach for the NPPL?

[Whopity]

Many years ago I was an instructor for the IR at OATS - in terms of grandfather rights does that qualify?So long as you completed the Instrument part of the FI revalidation test (Section 6) on the SRG1169 then you have revalidated those privileges.

Ie can an IAA FI teach for the NPPL? Why not?

[nick14]

I wondered if the restriction from the IMC extended to the NPPL.

[S-Works]

The NPPL has to be taught by an FI. They only exist in EASA land.

It just demonstrates how ludicrous the system is.....

[fireflybob]

So long as you completed the Instrument part of the FI revalidation test (Section 6) on the SRG1169 then you have revalidated those privileges.


Whopity, we did thanks - am on the case!

[BEagle]

We have a Chipmunk on our approval (rtf that is ) thats still on a C of A. And surprise surprise it flies just as well in IMC as it does in VFR.

Although I do agree its not ideal for IMC training.

The Chippie is an excellent aircraft in which to learn instrument flying! That's how I was taught 40 years ago in the RAF and neither aircraft nor weather has changed since then.

There's too much emphasis on radio navigation and playing airliners in little aeroplanes by some folk - and not enough emphasis on good, solid IF skills.

[S-Works]

It might have been 40years OK and was pretty OK when I learnt at Swinderby 25 years ago. But most of them have knackered gyro instruments thes days and don't make a great a instrument platform. They also only allow you to flow a single type of approach which will be the SRA or PRA. Non of them I have seen have the avionics for a pilot interpreted approach. So would require moving to another type to complete the course.

I do wonder sometimes Beagle if you look at a bygone age with rose tinted spectacles.

Its a moot point though as a check again on GINFO shows virtually all the Chipmunks on permit now as well. Something to do with the outrageous fees DH Support are making. So either Mickey Kay is going to be very busy or your dream of people training for an IMC on national types is a pipe dream!!