ec130 vs 350b2 vs 350b3

[turbineturkey]

in the market to purchase a ship in the price range of these for the boss. he likes EC b/c of the open cockpit and everyone facing forward. he likes all 3 of these so it is really up to me. i have flown the b2 and b4 but not the b3. would love to hear what everyone says about the pros/cons of each. will be for private use. flying family, vacations, etc..

here are mine

EC-130
pros: less squirrely in IGE hover, tons of room, great view for everyone, dual hydraulics

cons: get a little bit more vibration at higher cruise speeds, not as easy to resell


AS350B2
pros: imho flies like a dream, bit cheaper then the other 2 so could get less time on ship, fast cruise speed, easy to sell since used for so many things

cons: single hydraulic belt with bit of history for issues


AS350B3
pros: not sure how flies but has to be great w/ even more power than the b2, dual hydraulics, fadec

cons: i have heard some pilots complain they don't like the single channel fadec? they like b2 better?


any advice is much appreciated! ;-)

[victor papa]

New machines or second hand?

New, 130T2 for all the B4's reasons but add lower vibes due newly added system to cancel buffeting due canopy size at high speeds(faster cruise speed), aircon and environment control system, lighter, much more performance due Arriel 2D and 950shp, mgb.

B3 again be careful because there are 3 variants: B3 single channel DECU(Arriel 2B), B3+ twin channel FADEC, B3e twin channel Fadec and Arriel 2D ap 130 but 750shp mgb. B3+ Arriel 2B1. Twin hydraulics is available on the B3 but only if ordered as such when new from the production line. New you will only get the B3e now who had her issues but sorted now with demod.

The B2 great and all you need if not heavy, hot and high. The B4 makes up for vibe at high cruise(can balance her to lower vibe if thats where she spends her life) with her space and comfort though and for a family corporate machine she looks the part.

[turbineturkey]

Gr8 info. Thnx!

I should have mentioned. Second hand. Budget in 1.5 range. That is why I didn't mention b3e. I know I couldn't find one in that range. For the dual hydraulics on the b3 I'd have to search around for one that someone had ordered with. (or do a post mod?)

[3top]

Hi TTurkey,

...had the pleasure to fly all 3 B3s over the last 7 years and an early B4 (EC130).

If you have the say on the buy: GO B3!!

If you're on a budget, you won't be seeing a T2 anytime soon - the few hours I did in the B4 I HATED, very indifferent feeling in the controls, lousy visibility (compared to the B3), vibrator above 95 kts... [2002 model with issues]

B3: FORGET about the single/dual FADEC! Actually, if you are old school, you most likely would prefer the single FADEC!! If that fails, you switch to manual mode on the collective and fly it like a old B47 or R44 (with the governor switched off...) - NO sweat!
Dual Fadec - no manual mode (no know dual failure either...)

Dual hydraulics - the issues with the belt were solved long time ago - about 25 years or so!! [...have the mechanic tension the belt to specs - not too tight!!].
The real issue is rather the proper maintenance of the hydraulic pump - if that is done correctly you will not have any issues with the single system.

Besides - you can PERFECTLY fly the 350 without hydraulics - again, just do it right!! Proper training is an advantage!
[When I was company check pilot, I'd even have guys take off without hydraulics and hover a bit..... - NOT adviced by the POH !!, .... but could safe the day, if you get stuck in the wrong place]
Only issue is (IF you insist in doing it the wrong way...]: you may run out of muscle power! But generally - if properly trained, a none issue!

B4 has definitely more space, but if the call is yours, go for B3: ...better speed, ...better visibility, ...endless power, ...excellent control feel!



Cheers,

3top:cool:

[rotornut]

The RCMP has 2 120Bs and 8 350B3s. They formerly used mostly 206s. Most of their bases are not hot and high and their machines are generally not fully loaded on most of their missions. So I wonder if they were not persuaded by some Eurocopter salesman to buy more ship than they needed with respect to the B3s.

[turbineturkey]

thanks 3top! i knew the high time EC guys would come out with some great advice!

i agree about the vibration in the ec130. i have only flown an early one and was surprised by the vibration in the 100kts+ range. an a-star at cruise is so silky in comparison.

interesting on the single vs dual channel fadec. nice to have a manual mode option. looking like the b3 should be the ship to track down!

[Bender Rodrigez]

Hi,

That's a well known dilemma we have here! Ok, first let's get rid of the B2. Who wants to get an old designed machine when you can get a modern and more powerful one?

Now for the finals between B3 and B4, it really depends of the type of job. If you plan to fly corporate only, mainly from and to prepared landing areas, then I suggest the B4. More room for pax, plenty of power, fenestron and dual hydraulics and FADEC. Easy to maintain, fast, vibration issues on the hammers are now very rare. I prefer the B4 for that simply because it's more comfortable for the boss.

The B3 on the other hand is more versatile, has a fair amount of power, and is very reliable. Simply a bit more utility-oriented and less classy than the B4.

Either way you can't be wrong, so check the market and pick one!

Cheerio

BR

[turbineturkey]

"Easy to maintain, fast, vibration issues on the hammers are now very rare."
i heard the earlier models (say 2004 and earlier) will vibrate at higher speeds no matter how tuned. have you found this to be the case too?

if you had to choose between a 2007 1,500hr B2 or a 1999 7,000hr B3 (both about mid-time on major components) which would you lean towards?

[3top]

....just on the raw and minimal info you gave - B2

HOWEVER, you cannot really make a decision on this data only.

Need to see/inspect both airframes. look at their work history, who was the operator, maintenance history, etc....

Age alone is not a primary factor.

This B3 though seems to have had a busy live (utility, VIP, news, ??)

3top:cool:

[RVDT]

B2 is VEMD? After Serial 4129?

How is the B3 ref Calendar Inspection? (12 year)

When choosing between B2 and B3 keep in mind that the Internal Gross Weight between the 2 is roughly the same.

If not hot and high - no benefit in a B3.

The extra power of the B3 will just translate into higher burn.

If you really want a faster smoother machine consider low gear.

[Heliarctic]

TurbineTurkey
You really can´t go wrong with any of the models. Although i would stay away from the B3 (single FADEC) if possible. Maintenance wise we used to have a bit of trouble with them, whereas the B3+ (dual FADEC) just seems to keep going and going.
In regards to the B3+ i would advise you to have a careful look in the ships logs regarding work type, maintenance, hours etc. Some B3+ ships have been worked really hard on the utility market due to their strength.

What can i say about the B2, absolute bombproof, i would go for a low time B2 over a high time B3, but that´s just personal preference.

The history of the helicopter has a lot to say.
Don´t have any knowledge of the B4.
Good luck:ok:

[turbineturkey]

sorry for not being specific on the question about very new B2 vs older B3. i wasn't trying to make an exact comparison of two specific ships. more of a theoretical if both were mid-time (for their age), comparable avionics, etc..

great point RVDT on the roughly same internal gross weight. i will probably be doing 80% of the flying around sea level so not a huge necessity for the hot and high performance.

i've found a really nice B2 (2008 so has VEMD) and even glass for PFD and MFD. now i'm opening up a whole new can of worms! call me crazy but i love being able to scan the traditional 6 pack. anyone that has made the transition to all glass end up liking it more?

thnx for all the info guys.. has really helped!!

[RVDT]

TT,

Analog to glass will keep you guessing for quite a while as it is not "intuitive".

As you have started to work out for yourself the "Tree Fiddy" and its derivatives can be a long road.

If you take the time to get your head around the subtleties - a great machine!

[3top]

T-turkey,

B3 will be better even at sea-level, no question!

However at your described operation, it will NOT make any difference for YOU or your passengers....

It seems you found a nice ship - going by the equipment it was/is a VIP/private ship?? (Utility doesn't come much with all glass...)

Don't worry too much about analog/glass transition - just don't fight it!
Sit in there a few times a "dry"-fly!!
Find the different indicators (bar/graph/etc.) and the associated digital display
[About all of them come with "dual indication" - graphic AND digital numbers]
The trick is (for me...) to decide which dipiction is more important/intuitive for YOU (...for each value) - e.g. Altitude band - do you like to go by the indicator on the band or the digital number besides it?
Once you get that in your head - you won't want to look back to the 6-stack!

I think the whole "problem" is New versus "known/gotten used too" - just a new thing to learn...

Good like with the new ship!

You will have LOADS of fun!!

Cheers,

3top:cool:

[Soave_Pilot]

If you really want a faster smoother machine consider low gear.

How faster would you say the low skid aircraft flies?

[3top]

Mate listen!! FORGET the low gear!!

The few kts do not warrant the headache you will have, avoiding a serious headache for the oblivious approaching your running helo!
I had 5 "near chops" over a 7 year period in a mining exploration environment - pax briefing before EVERY flight!
It get's old fast when you are sitting there and some numb-nut is approaching your MR disc and you can't do squat about (...besides to tilt the MR to the oppyosite side).

All is well, until the noise and wind start - the most all peoples get a white-out (witts out....) around the helo......

Your employer will most likely use the helo for relative short commute to avoid road traffic or is a hard core joy rider...?! In either case the few kts (3??) won't make ANY difference to them (or you....)

Worse yet - the TR is already low as it is on normal (high) gear - I'd hate to think about the trouble with it on low legs......

3top:cool:

[RVDT]

Soave,

I have flown the variations of short v long on the following:

H500
Bell 206
AS350
AS355F
AS355N

If you can live with it the 355N had the greatest variation - IFR lead pig v VFR lightweight - 30 knots!

B206 - your average light plank single- Piper, Cessna would get a fright when you passed them.

Short legged very light H500C - MCP = VNE!

It all depends on your type of operation.

If going from A to B give me short gear any day.

AS 350 - when light with AFT C of G i.e. pilot only - the TR height difference is not worth worrying about in the hover.

If you are Utility with hook and hot turns etc well then you have to live with it - Horses for Courses.

On all these ships short gear was NORMAL.

If you don't mind vibration - stick with the High Gear. Nearly all the high gear options include additional damper weights in the legs somewhere to try and alleviate it.

[Soave_Pilot]

Thanks for the input guys

SP

[turbineturkey]

btw.. if anyone happens to know of a good lead on a 2000-2006 B2 or B3, in the 2000-5000hr range, in the US or canada (that is not already on controller) plz don't hesitate to PM me. thnx for all the wisdom!