Higher apprenticeship scheme pilot studies middlesex university

[Letsbagit]

Can anyone spread any light on the new higher apprenticeship scheme which has been released in conjunction with Middlesex university and ctc wings.
The course was designed to help students fund their pilot training with the help of student finance.
However as I see it the majority of the finance goes to Middlesex university who have accredited the degree but the student spends no time at the university.
This means the student will only get the living loan and possible maintenance loan and therefore will still have to find 70,000 plus for the flight training am I right?:

[Dilan12345]

I spoke to somebody from CTC and they said that you get a loan which will cover approximately half of the overall cost. Althought you do not attend middlesex uni, you have to write a dissertation after you finish your course and that goes towards middlesex uni. So i believe you get a loan for around £9000 a year as well. However the course with middlesex uni is in its finishing touches and will be available sometime next year, no specific date is given.

[Letsbagit]

Hi Dillon
Thanks for your comment.
However if you read Ctc wings website on the degree programme it states that in addition to the 9000 tuition fees totalling 27000 for Middlesex university you still have to fund 70,000 plus for the training.
So I read it that Middlesex get the whole 9000.

[mad_jock]

I have also heard that there are moves a foot from shall we say more academic university's to challenge this degree.

I would be surprised if it stands to be honest as there is virtually zero academic content to be had for pilot training or ATPL ground theory.

The idea that you can spend 18 months learning to fly, then do a 4 week type rating and then pass your line training in 4 weeks and write an essay equals an academic degree is quite frankly farcical.

Mind you if they get 100 odd to sign up for it and pay the cash and then say sorry no can do its done its job.

[Lakhan]

I've emailed the exact same question to them. Even if you get student loan, it's being paid from SLC to the uni. You don't see it. You still have to come up with the 70k they ask for. The only funding which I believe you can receive is probably maintenance and housing ; Bursaries also if you qualify. This can be up to 15k or so. (Don't quote me on this). But remember having Student loan means you got to pay it back after you earn something around 21K.

Mj. Can't disagree there

Early stages so far so we don't know yet how it will pan out. More info released in Jan 2014.

[spitfire_sl]

From what I understand the idea behind is that one can apply for a student loan + mainteance loans+ bursaries, but only a small proportion of that goes to Middlesex Uni. Ive been told it should leave about 32k net to offset the price of flight training.

Thats the theory behind it anyway. It would be good to hear from someone whos actually enrolled as exact details are a bit sketchy.

[mad_jock]

the maintenance and bursarys are not a given you have to apply to separate bodies for them.

When I was at uni the was a grand total of 3 people out of 145 doing an engineering degree who managed to get the additional maintenance. And nobody managed to get the bursary. The 3 that got the additional maintenance were all disabled.

Post uni and having to deal with what I thought was a genuine case due to 2 children and his wife being unable to work because of 2 young kids and a demented parent living with them the engineer student got knocked back because he had good earning potential during the holidays.

So unless you are a one legged transsexual lesbian don't bank on either maintenance or bursary's.

Its a limited fund which has to be applied for every year and some years you might get yes and some you might get no. Banking on either in your financial planning would be a very grave mistake what ever these marketing types tell you.

[Letsbagit]

Today I have at last received a detailed explanation from Ctc wings re the pilot training with a degree.
In a nutshell you apply throughucas the combined course fees for 2014 is 101,300.
Students who have not previously had a student loan can apply for student finance and may be eligable for 43500 of gov funding.
This potentially reduces the course fees to 57800 which you have to fund yourself.
The student loan is made up
9000 x3 years 27000
5500 x 3 years 16500
The university will provide a complete module timetable and the progress of the course will be credited by the university.
This is a big step forward but a substantial amount has still to be funded by the individual or family

[mad_jock]

The 3 x 5500 maint allowance I would call lying.

The 9k which is the Uni fees you will be assured of but you will never see.

Fire back an email asking if the maint is refused what will happen.

And more to the point what the process is and the requirements to qualify for the maint. And do you qualify for it for the full three years before committing to the course.

And what happens if this cash is not available what happens.

I suspect it will be find it or your out and you still have to repay the student loan money later in life what ever you do.

[Lakhan]

Maintenance loan is up to £5k year. Most people get around £3-4K. This is per year and you have to pay it back. Maintenance grant is similar however you wont have to pay it back. (Up to £5k again) However there is an eligibility criteria, mostly depending on household income. E.g You can get a maintenance loan of lets say 5k and apply for a grant, which you may only get 3k. Only 2k would have to be paid back.

Considering that 27k gets eaten up by the Uni (even though you don't do 3 years at campus), I would assume that you would get 3 years of maintenance loans/grant. (If you're eligible of course every year). An email answer from ASP: "I think the only one that perhaps would not be on there is that although the course is not 3 years - the loans are over levels or years so in this case it's the 3 levels."

To be honest you would really get around between 10k-21k off the initial 75k CTC ask for, leaving you with around 55k+ to find under your carpet.

MJ:Fire back an email asking if the maint is refused what will happen. The "brochure" clearly states you have to be eligible for it. If refused then tough luck I guess

And what happens if this cash is not available what happens. . The boot I guess :E

[keith williams]

Are you guys seriously thinking about paying good (real) money for a pretend degree.

If you really just want the letters after your name there are far cheaper ways of getting worthless degrees.

Both CTC and the university involved should be utterly ashamed of what they are doing.

[mad_jock]

"the best case scenario"... right?

they way I see it yes. And here is some links to the maintenance side of things

Applying for a Maintenance Grant (http://www.fundingeducation.co.uk/applying-for-maintenance-grants.html)

https://www.gov.uk/student-finance/loans-and-grants

https://www.gov.uk/student-finance-calculator

You can have a look at that and see what you will get.

You pretty much have to have both parents on minimum wage before you can get the headline amounts quoted.


And from what I have seen you have to be pushed through TR and line training before you can graduate with your worthless degree.

[Lakhan]

There are different ways of enrolling in this scheme.1. Ab initio. 2. Part way through training 3. Qualified pilot. More info on these from Jan 14

I don't see how one can get funding when they've already qualified? Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most people who want to join CTC once qualified do the AQC course? Considering this is around 10k (haven't checked recently), would qualified pilots use loans/grants to fund that? Hmmm. Iffy:(

[mad_jock]

There are various different groups the main marketing is trying to hook them into the premier course.

Its normal to be able to jump years in Uni courses if appropriately qualified. And as you seem to be able to get year credits for doing absolutely nothing academic I reckon most line pilots will be able to get a degree after writing an essay.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are various different groups the main marketing is trying to hook them into the premier course.

Its normal to be able to jump years in Uni courses if appropriately qualified. And as you seem to be able to get year credits for doing absolutely nothing academic I reckon most line pilots will be able to get a degree after writing an essay.

And it'll be worth precisely nothing.

A degree and a pilot licence are both ultimately recognitions of formal training and assessment at a high standard. But the first is about understanding and use of knowledge of a subject requiring a high degree of intellectual rigour, and the second about use of skills built upon knowledge, requiring a high degree of professionalism and skill.

They are not the same thing - albeit that there are pedagogical overlaps. Basically however, I have to agree with Keith:-

Are you guys seriously thinking about paying good (real) money for a pretend degree.

If you really just want the letters after your name there are far cheaper ways of getting worthless degrees.

Both CTC and the university involved should be utterly ashamed of what they are doing.

Absolutely. Middlesex is let's be honest, a bottom rung former HE college with little academic reputation to lose - but CTC in particular should know better as a well regarded professional training provider.

If you want a degree, do a degree. A proper one, from a grown up university, that means something. For the same reason that if you want a professional pilots licence you need to do it properly, fly the hours, get assessed by a competent flight examiner in a country which understands aviation.

Does anybody really believe that a third world ATPL, or a degree in "aviation" from a former HE college with no in-house aviation expertise is worth anything? Or that any employer will think it is?

(No, CTC isn't a third world substandard training provider - but it's in danger of acting like one here.)

[Luke SkyToddler]

Jock and Genghis - go read the thread from all the Turkish Airlines FO's, crying because of the company's new policy that you must have a degree in order to be considered for command upgrade. Doesn't specify "what" degree ... just, a degree. This used to be a USA only thing but there are so many airlines now in europe, and also down under, where HR department :mad: with pony tails have taken over from crusty old chief pilots, and they luuuurve those kids with degrees.

Yes it's a load of horse :mad: and yes a 1 week CRM course would be more useful to any command upgrade candidate than a 4 year degree they did at some two-bob university in their teens ... but it's the way the world is going. Especially if you can blag even a few grand worth of subsidy out of the gov't, it can't be a bad thing can it?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Surely the solution to that is the pilot union (or even the airline management) standing up to HR absurdity, rather than encouraging the handing out mickey mouse degrees printed on toilet paper.

[Contacttower]

Absolutely. Middlesex is let's be honest, a bottom rung former HE college with little academic reputation to lose - but CTC in particular should know better as a well regarded professional training provider.

To be fair I think CTC are probably aware of the real status and value of this as a 'degree'. What this is about is a creative...to say the least...way of trying to get access to more student funding. Something which I don't think they should be blamed for...

However as others have pointed out the fees get paid to the university directly like any other degree and as far as maintenance loans are concerned they are likely to be a relatively small amount of the total cost.

[mad_jock]

More likely they are just lining there own pockets with the VAT.

[Contacttower]

Sorry MJ I don't quite follow why this is advantageous to CTC from a VAT point of view?

[mad_jock]

you don't pay VAT on Education.

HM Revenue & Customs (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000117&propertyType=document#P72_5132)

but the course price is higher so someone is pocketing the 20% VAT.

[Contacttower]

I'm still not with you I don't think...

As far as I see it Middlesex Uni get the £9k or whatever it is directly from the student/student loan company...

The student then pays CTC their course fee which I assume VAT is payable on because it is still flight training? Unless CTC have just succeeded where others have failed in finding a way to exempt flight training from VAT?

Am I missing something here?

[mad_jock]

Yep it is now a vocational degree under the vocational national apprenticeship scheme or what ever its called and its through an education establishment designated by the education act.

No VAT payable on vocational training.

You didn't honestly think they would go to all that effort just so the students could get a 0-9k's worth of cheap loan did you? Its to get the extra 16k plus more likely over 20k with the type rating per student profit.

[Contacttower]

Well I just wasn't convinced that HMRC would allow a major flight school to get out of its VAT requirements just because it had signed a partnership with a university...

[mad_jock]

They haven`t got much option if its set up properly.


Note the previous post that the students apply through ucas and the fee is 100k. Its all part of hoops you need to go through to get the excemption for VAT.

They can`t charge more than the max uni matriculation fee but they can launder vocational training course fees which are required.

[planedrive]

Isn't the Wings course tax free anyway due to the set up with the 'security bond?'

[mad_jock]

There are different taxes involved with the cadet type schemes.

But it really doesn't concern the actual student as the pay the main headline price anyway.

The tax with VAT and employers NI contributions and cooperation tax offset is dealt with by the trainer and company doing the sponsoring.

You can't have a tax free course with commercial training only with this degree thing.

The vat must be paid but eventually if you go through to a VAT registered company they can claim it back. But you as an individual can't get it back.

An airline only has to take 5 cadets on a year and it pays for the training budget for 50 plus pilots.

As much as some go on that its because of perceived quality etc etc The main line is that the accountants love it because they make money out of recruiting. If they didn't they wouldn't do it.

[Lakhan]

So easyjet has announced that they are the partner airline with CTC for this Uni course. Who knew! :ugh:

Latest news - easyJet plc (http://corporate.easyjet.com/media/latest-news/news-year-2013/13-12-2013-en.aspx?sc_lang=en)