New opportunity to give 4 years service for nothing

[GipsyMagpie]

Anyone been sent the offer to transfer to the new 40/20 exit point vs 38/16? Sounds like a delightful offer for 4 more years of the same for little extra benefit on leaving (since extra 4 years would be on new pension).

[E-Spy]

Yes seen it. Anyone care to put it into normal speak?

[JTIDS]

For those on AFPS 75 who won't qualify for the AFPS 15 immediate pension it allows you to sign up for up to four years extra service beyond your 16/38 point so that you can. Will add about £1500 on to your immediate pension, and then at 68 (or what ever the OAP point is by then) about £6000 onto your final pension.

All in all a waste of time. Be surprised if anyone signs up to it.

[Force For Good]

Wouldn't it be great if Manning trawled the dark corners of PPRuNe for ideas and the general consensus as the good Wg Cdr Spry et al. have opted to...

[fabs]

TBH, I will sign up to it because it promises to keep your original exit date as an option point. So if it's not working out you still have the chance to excape on that day without taking a hit.

[skydiver69]

HMG made a similar offer when they changed the police pension scheme from 30 to 35 years, so officers would work an extra 5 years albeit for lower monthly payments. I don't think that anyone moved from the old to the new scheme.

[Field44]

To create a £6000 a year pension pot at 68 from an annuity would need a £100,000 lump sum. Airline pensions are getting worse so don't totally discount it!

[VinRouge]

Not when you factor seniority, quality of life and not forgetting the reduced life expectancy induced from serving another 5 years in the mob....

[Al R]

Field,

If you want an annuity and try to reproduce AFPS, factor in good health, a 50% survivor's pension, payment escalating to keep pace with inflation and a guarantee for your partner for 10 years after you die, it could be a lot less than that right now. Having said that.. Things are looking up for the moment.

Four of top five annuity providers increase rates | The Actuary, official magazine of SIAS and The Actuarial Profession (http://www.theactuary.com/news/2013/10/four-of-top-five-annuity-providers-increase-rates/)

[faarn]

TBH, I will sign up to it because it promises to keep your original exit date as an option point. So if it's not working out you still have the chance to excape on that day without taking a hit.

Does anyone have any more details on this aspect? How and at what point porior would you have to let the Services know that you will actually leave at your inital option point? Also does it specifically state that you would not be subject to PVR rates or that it simply allows you to leave without notice but at PVR rates?

[VinRouge]

All in the letter you should have received if eligible. Signature on the paper by 31 Jan I believe.

As long as there are no hidden little tricks, such as removal of pvr terms before your original exit point, you have nothing to lose by signing it from the research I have done.

If anything, the scheme has been provided as the existing forced transfer on to 15, without an opportunity to meet an earliest qualification point, may not have been legal. By offering this, that issue goes away.

Having said that, I do wonder if refusal to accept the new terms would give you a defector exit point on 1 April 2015... In other words, one without a notified period!

Very much doubt they will let that happen!

[fingureof8]

How does this change an offer to move to PAS? At the moment you can be granted an offer with 3 years to your exit date, but if your exit date moves 4 years the right then you could spend 4 years with out an increment(Lvl 9Flt Lt and enhanced rate flying pay), when you could have been moving up the PAS ladder..

[VinRouge]

If you have a pas offer, surely you will have qualifying service up to your 40 point? There is a number on the letter for these sorts of queries, give manning a ring.

[fingureof8]

I don't yet have a PAS offer, but I would fully expect one when I reach 35/36. That would mean, under my current engagement, moving onto PAS pay scales and starting the RoS on my 38th birthday. But, if I sign the paper would that mean I wouldn't be able to move to PAS until my 20/40, which for me would be 42yrs old. In turn with the 5 yrs RoS for PAS, I wouldn't be able to leave until my 47th birthday.

I think I need to phone manning, to see if my assumption is correct. If it is then this is a sh@t deal. Which airline would touch you at 47!

[Biggus]

fingureof8,

By all means check with manning, but I would recommend that you get a copy of their answer in writing, rather than just an opinion given by voice over the phone.

Hard copy of their answer to your query may come in very useful downstream if it all goes wrong and gets messy.

Best of luck. :ok:

[fingureof8]

Biggis,

Wise words, thanks

[Guest_22]

Fingure - big assumption there; firstly that you will be offered PAS, and second that PAS will still be offered post NEM implementation. The brief I went to suggested 5 year, 10 year or full extensions will be offered in the future as required by the RAF (Service need) to ranks below Sqn Ldr.

If you have a long time left on your own initial pension scheme, what have you got to lose taking the offer? If you are due to leave soon after the AFPS15 implementation, what have you got to gain taking the extension if Manning can't give you an offer of your choosing?

[Just This Once...]

PAS remains with NEM. It is true it didn't feature on the first few presentations (hence the concern) but that was fixed rather rapidly.

[GipsyMagpie]

Never said PAS was going. It is just you risk delaying your eligibility by accepting the extension in my opinion. Emphasis on opinion.

[Just This Once...]

I was answering the concerns of the previous contributors….

[TurbineTooHot]

TBH, I will sign up to it because it promises to keep your original exit date as an option point. So if it's not working out you still have the chance to excape on that day without taking a hit.

Fabs, this was exactly my question. I read the DIN and could find that info. Is the letter particularly explicit in that regard? Still waiting on mine.
Cheers

[Just This Once...]

I share your well-honed scepticism but in this case the individuals can still walk at their original IPP. If someone at Manning thinks that the recent significant shortfall of PAS acceptance can be cured by offering less(!) then the lunatics have taken over….

…ok, I see your point.

[Guest_22]

Having not received my letter and expecting to at some point, the DIB states 2 months to decide on the extension from receipt of the letter whereas comments on here suggest that the letter only gives until 31 Jan 14 to make a decision (pre PAS boarding as mentioned previously - funny that). Which takes precedence, DIB or letter?

Also, I am very surprised at the lack of comment on this thread seeing as almost 100% of JO's on a PC (any branch/pension scheme) and some NCA/OR's expecting to leave after 1 Apr 15 are affected by this offer. Is that because the yoof don't use Prune anymore?

[fabs]

Turbinetoohot

Sorry, no access to interweb for a few days. The IBN says this wrt the original exit date:

Impact on Officers’ Optional Retirement Dates

Where officers accept the OTE, their previous EED will become an Optional Retirement Date (ORD). If they are subsequently promoted they will gain an additional ORD at the 20/40 point. These ORDs will be deferrable as per AP3993 Vol 1 para 7318 . Officers wishing to exercise an ORD must give a minimum of one year’s notice to RAF Manning

[junket]

Charlie Mike and others - this isnt just aimed at Aircrew you know. This has nothing to do with capturing you, so you don't get any PAS or FRIs or some other incentive to retain you. This isn't a clever ploy by Manning, they aint that clever!! and far from it with some of the Desk Officers you meet, but a tri-Service offer endorsed by the SofS and Treasury.

It just so happens that the new pension scheme happens to cause this blip - whilst the sums may not be massive in terms of increasing your pension, if it wasn't offered you would all be screaming like little girls that it wasn't fair.

Take it for what it is - a genuine offer to extend, if you want, in order to meet the new pension caveats. For what it is worth, it is actually quite generous in these austere money saving times - the bean counters could have taken it as another potential saving!!

[SVK]

I agree with Junket that this OTE is not Manning led - in fact I would suggest that they have just seen their future manning plots blown out of the water just before the Christmas break. I also agree that is not Aircrew specific however it does raise interesting issues for both Aircrew and Manning.

I've spent the past few days playing with the pensions calculator and I just cannot see how the OTE appeals to the majority of two winged master race. Please allow me to explain:

Opt 1: Stay to 20/40 point and then leave.
Accept an OTE means that you will simply stay on a self-imposed pay freeze as a Level 9, topped out Flt Lt. Unless you have a plan to do something life/career enhancing within those 4yrs, you are simply going to return to Civvy life 4yrs older. Yes, you may get a bit more if you reach State Pension Age (whatever that will eventually be as it can change under AFPS15). If you're off to the airlines then you may be 4yrs older but do you have anything more to show for it?

Opt 2: Stay to 38/16 point then leave.
In which case you could enter your civvy career and be 4yrs more senior with 4yrs more paid into your civvy pension fund before your ex-colleagues who accepted OTE join you.

Opt 3: 20/40 point then PAS to 55.
Ok, so your 38/16 point becomes an 'Optional Retirement Date' but you can bet your bottom dollar that any future PAS offer will be based on your EED which will now be 4 years later. So in essence, you are now topped out Flt Lt for another 4yrs before transferring to PAS, with a minimum ROS of a further 5yrs. So, if you were not happy with PAS and wished to leave after 5yrs, you are now looking towards late-forties before you can try and forge a second career. That is far from ideal. In the meantime, you will be tied into the RAF for a total of 9yrs from what would have been your original 38/16 EED.

Opt 4: 38/16 point then PAS to 55.
Start PAS at your 38/16 point on a new payscale with a minimum of 5yrs service. This means that you will have been progressing through the PAS pay scale, earned your 4yrs service under AFPS15 to qualify for EDP etc and, if you're not happy, leave after 5yrs to forge a second career.

So, in essence, if you want to create a second career as a civilian then you won't particularly want an OTE. If you want PAS with a view to remaining to 55 then you don't want to accept an OTE and if you're intending to go PAS and leave after 5yrs then you definitely don't want to accept an OTE.

I can only think that you might accept it if you are already waiting / expecting to sit in an Airline Pool for a bit. In which case you could happily mark time with an OTE and if the hiring starts, exercise your ORD. If past your ORD, take the pension hit and accrue it in the airlines instead. If nothing arises then stay in the mob for 4yrs with the security of an AFPS15 EDP.

Genuinely happy to take criticism or contrarian opinions because at the moment, I just cannot see the advantage of accepting it.

[Just This Once...]

An excellent post and reflects a conversation I had with a couple of guys last week.

Not found an aircrew chap who has accepted the offer yet. Most I have talked to are planning on leaving anyway and I know one who is going to exercise a PAS offer tied to another RoS.

[E-Spy]

So, if one doesn't accept the OTE, but will incur a 3yr ROS from 2015 which would normally have come with an offer of PAS, does this make PAS from 38/16 point more likely/still possible?

[BlindWingy]

Gentlemen,

Can anyone give me some advice regarding the viability of a legal challenge to this offer?

When I joined for my contracted term, I was told I would earn a pension. It turns out that is no longer true for the final few years of my signed contract due to the forced change to AFPS15.

Any employment lawyers able to offer an opinion?

[Just This Once...]

Pretty hard to challenge anything that comes in via a Statutory Instrument, especially one that still leaves you with the pension you have earned to date with additional benefits to come under AFPS15. In fact I would give up right now.

[VinRouge]

How about 1 month notice before the afps15 changeover date?

[Guest_22]

Blindwingy - are you only asking for the male opinion?

The 7 clicks to freedom is always there if one is not content with the offer/terms of Service currently. The OTE gives each individual affected the option to accrue pension rights of both schemes that they will have served under; they can still decline and leave at their current end of engagement. It is a personal decision to accept or decline the offer, no one elses'. Do the numbers. Don't be too hasty rejecting the OTE but consider your own individual circumstances and what you want to do.


I would suggest:

If you want to make a career within the RAF and/or have many more years to serve (this affects all who join prior to 1 Apr 15 who have not already made IPP, whichever current pension), accept the OTE to leave your options open; you can still opt to leave at original EED later.
If you are nearing exit, have no clue what to do and are content to remain in the RAF with the potential for no future pay rises if not promoted, accept the offer to guarantee up to 4 more years employment.
If you intend to leave at your current EED or, for aircrew, you prefer to take the PAS gamble, decline.
Simples.

[High_Expect]

I still think many are missing the point here...

When I joined at 18 (pension started accruing at 21) I thought I was going to leave at 38 with 17/60th of top rate Flt Lt pay. That is the contract I signed and I expected to start a second career aged 38. Now, however, without being asked to resign I now face leaving at 38 and will only accrue 12/60th of my pension. This is a fundamental change in my original contract. If I leave before 38 I won't see a penny until I'm around 65!! We're talking 100s of thousand difference here. If I want to see those last 5years worth of pension rights I will have to serve an extra 2 years and will be two years later into civi street.

This can't be legal! It stinks to high heaven!!!

[Just This Once...]

Not aircrew?

[Onceapilot]

I see exactly where High Expect is coming from. The rules have retrospectively been changed under his feet:=.
BTW, those who expect future "service contracts" of backdated pension increments or gratuity payments years after after an EDP should pay particular attention! I suggest that these terms may well change before you reach the maturity of your "contract". WORTHLESS, these days! :ouch::sad::\

OAP

[Guest_22]

So, 2014 begins with the OTE deadline looming; I still haven't signed my letter making my choice.

Just thought I'd bring this back to the forefront of prune and people's minds, and when added to the aircrew sustainability thread, wonder what the uptake will be...

[SVK]

I haven't signed my OTE either but mainly because I've had far more pressing things to do such as Christmas etc. In fact, you have just reminded me to get it signed although I have been talking to a few guys about it and there are a few of us for whom it makes sense.

Those on AFPS05 who are on 18/40 points can get an increased pension for a mere 2yrs extra.

Also, those non-Uni grad young guns can still meet the OTE and leave in the bracket to have a good stab in the airlines.

Finally, if on an Exchange requiring a 3yr ROS - for the sake of a further year, you might as well accept the OTE.

I have heard (and I stress this is a RUMOUR) that Manning are probably going to base this year's PAS Offers on your original exit date. Although they don't know what they will do next year and 2016 is a complete mystery.

Does anyone know when this year's PAS Board will now sit? I have heard mid-Feb but any confirmation would be nice.