Hi - SP here, flare frsutration!

[Andy_P]

Thought I would join up and say hi. Since I started flying, this forum has turned up a lot on my google searches! Seems to be a good resource for those learning.

Anyway, broke my knee about 8 months ago now in a trail bike accident and was banned from riding and sailing (my other hobbies). Always wanted to fly, surgeon was happy for me to go up provided I waited a few months after my knee reconstruction. I cant sit still and do nothing, so I took the opportunity to start flying!

So here I am, 16 hours down and doing circuits. Circuit after circuit getting more and more frustrated because I cant quite get that landing just right! Training at an aero club, so I get a mix of instructors who are all really great! I am sure I will get there soon! I have googled heaps on getting that flare correct, and read a lot of threads here. Of course any more tips are welcome!

[Johnm]

Buy this book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Making-Perfect-Landings-Light-Airplanes/dp/0813810817

It goes through the landing process in a range of scenarios and was the best flying book I ever bought.

The key point is that landing is a process not an event. It starts with setting up a stable approach and ends with a parked aeroplane. The tricky bit is the round out and flare. Basically you learn to round out at a sensible height, close the throttle and then pull the yoke or stick back slowly a bit like trying NOT to land. If you have it dead right the wheels will touch gently with the yoke or stick all the way back and the stall warner sounding. You then lower the nose, roll out to taxi speed and taxi to the stand. Simples!

[riverrock83]

Its easy...
You just need to set the correct attitude, at the correct height, at the correct speed, with the correct power (probably idle) and don't let the nose drop / pitch forward at any point... :}

Don't worry - at some stage it will just click! It is all about judgement, which is something that everyone needs to learn for themselves (I've had my licence since April and lets just say, some of my landings still have a lot to be desired...).

A stable approach at the correct speed / angle helps enormously. Ideally on approach you should be stable and trimmed enough and that you can take hands off and nothing changes.

I'd also try to keep the same instructor for a spell. There are sooo many different techniques (to get the correct attitude for example) and everyone has a favourite but you really only need to master one of them, so it is easy to get confused with differing instructors.

Enjoy your training!
RR

[Crash one]

Hi Andy welcome aboard.There is a point in the approach that is referred to as the "ground rush" when the airfield seems to suddenly come up round your ears rather than you looking down on it. That's the round out point, or thereabouts. It will all click soon, don't worry about it. Have fun.

[Andy_P]

Yup, I am hooked. Too many hobbies!!

EdBarret, I like switching between instructors. They are all really good, and each bring a new perspective to it. Each time I get hooked up one thing, flying with a new instructor seems to just pick up on the one thing I am doing wrong that may be insignificant to the last. Its helped me lot so far.

I am pretty good at analysing my problems, my engineer background probably helps. I know what I am doing wrong. Approach is generally ok (for a 16 hour pilot). Round out ok mostly, but I tend to over correct. Ie, pull back to hard, ballon, then pitch down. I am being to hard on the elevator.

I had a think about it tonight. Going to request to stop doing the touch and go for now, try and fly the plane on the runway with no power. Focus on attitude rather than landing. Thoughts? Its not a busy airstrip, so taxing back out for another circuit should not take to long.

[JuicyLucy]

Make sure you are looking at the far end of the runway, and not the touchdown point just before you flare. The over flaring maybe due to "ground rush", your peripheral vision works better in the last few feet.....

[Ebbie 2003]

I had the same problem - I did lots of landings but never could get it right until my instructor had me speak to the flight school owner - what worked for me was when he said "when you're landing, the view out the window etc should look just like it does when you're taking off".

It worked for me, I simply wasn't getting the attitude right - speed was ok but I tended not to get the nose up.

It is something I contine to struggle with, even 70+ hours after my ppl, but it gets better as ith experience it seems that everything seems to happen far more slowly in giving time to adjust and correct - odd thing that.

[localflighteast]

the two last points given by Ebbie and Lucy are what worked for me eventually

it really does take time and then eventually it clicks.

It just kind of happens is probably the worst but most accurate advice you are going to get.
one day you'll just be able to do it. And then out of nowhere you'll have a shocker of a landing just to keep you on your toes

I had a real tough time with this as well. all of the above advice works to some degree.
by biggest problem is carrying too much speed onto final , then you are guaranteed to bounce. Once I figured this out and concentrated on nailing that magic number things got a lot easier

[rsuggitt]

My 2 pence worth....

in the roundout, look at the end of the runway

place the top of the cowling about level with the horizon.

[Arclite01]

As long as you are the right height off the ground that is...........

Arc

[piperboy84]

Step by Step instructions on how to land a plane based on my 20 years of experience:

Issues: Flaring too early or late, bouncing, jouncing,landing too long or short, too fast or slow.

Action to be taken:

Step 1: Listen to the advice of your instructor, other pilots at the airfield and on pprune about speed control,how to judge height,where to focus (or not) your vision, and aircraft attitude during the different phases of landing.

Step 2: Go fly the pattern and try it, after a few botched attempts you will perform a greaser of a landing and think to yourself " Aha I have nailed the bastard". Go immediately to club house and brag to everybody and anybody that will listen.

Step 3: Return to airfield the following week and go flying, while on approach confident in the knowledge you have landings nailed let your mind drift on to other aspects of flying and/or where you will be going for a pint afterward, botch the landing, kick yourself, slink home without visiting the clubhouse.

Step 4: On the drive to the airfield for your next flight say to yourself "right I am really gonna concentrate and nail it today, go flying, botch landing, rationalize with yourself that " ah f$&k it nobody saw me bounce, the plane ain't bent and I,m not hurt so its all good"

Step 5: On you next flight without thinking too much about it you unexpectedly nail 3 greaser landings one after the other.

Step 6: Return to Step 2 and continue cycle for next few decades.

Note: Anybody, regardless of experience,that tells you that they ace their landings every time is a lying bar steward.

Hope this helps.

[Jude098]

Have a look on YouTube at the Kings School landing upload.....

[Fly-by-Wife]

Round out ok mostly, but I tend to over correct. Ie, pull back to hard, ballon, then pitch down. I am being to hard on the elevator.

The transition from approach glide slope to landing attitude is not a single movement, it's a gradual application of back stick (or yoke) as required to flatten the approach path until holding off (hopefully) a few inches above the runway while the speed bleeds off until you chirp onto the mains.

Don't think of a sharp change of angle in the flare, just do enough to avoid hitting the ground (for as long as possible)! Lots of little adjustments, rather than a few big ones.

FBW

[MoateAir]

As has been said, at the point where you feel roundout should happen, keep your eyes on the end of the runway and use your peripheral vision to monitor the last couple of feet and the runway edges. With power at just above idle, try and keep the aircraft at a couple of feet off the ground, it will settle on its own, generally with pleasing results. Variations will be learned with experience to account for different weather conditions, runway widths etc, but it will click eventually.
Best of luck with it.

[McTall]

Try motto focus on a perfect 'flare' as you put it. Focus on the transition between your approach attitude and flying level with the runway. Try to fly all the way to the end of the runway, with no power. You'll never be able to but it will make a nice smooth transition and will stop you losing too much speed and having a hard landing! As you lose speed your nose will want to drop, DONT LET IT. Because you pitched up, more speed will bleed off, the nose will want to drop more and so on and so on.... Try it and see how it goes. I instruct on motor gliders, fly light aircraft and light twins and it's the same for all!! Just try and fly to the end but don't forget to chop the throttle SMOOTHLY.

Hope it helps!!

[Andy_P]

Thanks for the tips. I am sure it will come to me eventually!

Just trying to book in more flights, but the joy of owning your own business means I am I time poor. Cant seem to find a vacant spot in the next 2 weeks which is rather annoying. I have found if I can get up 2 or 3 times a week I learn faster. Hopefully 2 weeks off wont set me back to far..

[flarepilot]

andy p


the book, ''stick and rudder'' is the best book you can read, so do it...it talks about landing quite a bit.

now this might sound odd, but think about it...assuming you know how to drive a car, you probably learned how to stop at a stop sign (do the australians have stop signs?)

how did you judge the stop?

early on you overshot the stop sign

or stopped too soon and came up short


but eventually you got it just right (assuming it isn't raining or a bunch of kangaroos get in your way)


its the same sort of thing judging the flare...so play with it

oh

and except for the danger to your knee, go to a department store. Ride the escalator (is that what they call the moving stairs in Australia ?) down.

You judge getting off the escalator in the same way you will judge the FLARE in landing.

I have a feeling many will laugh, but you give it a try...see how you change the gaze of your eyes as you land off the escalator.

so, go to the book store, buy "stick and rudder" by langweische, read it a whole bunch of times, and maybe take the escalator down while you are at the mall.

[Andy_P]

I will have a look for that book flarepilot. Re vision and judgement, try riding a motorcycle! We call it target fixation, sounds like what you call ground rush. The principles are all the same, its just a matter of training your brain to recognise the pattern and have it react subconsciously. Practice makes perfect I guess!

[fujii]

One question and it's already up to seventeen opinions. Go and speak to the CFI, get an instructor and go and do some circuits. Don't waste your money sorting it out on your own.

[Andy_P]

One question and it's already up to seventeen opinions. Go and speak to the CFI, get an instructor and go and do some circuits. Don't waste your money sorting it out on your own.

There was plenty of good tips in there! You are correct though, I need to do circuits and that is what I am doing. Anything I can take into that is just a bonus, so all feedback is welcome. To be honest, you get bummed out after a while, and sometime a bit of a push can help you along..

BTW. Had the same issue when I was flying the pattern initially. Just kept stuffing it up. Then all of a sudden it just clicked and I did my first unassisted landing. That was a great confidence boost. Now all my landings are unassisted, they are just crap!

One of the instructors the other day said, its a steep learning curve at first, but you progress fast, then when you hit circuits it all levels out. Likewise, once you get past circuits, the advanced stuff progresses fast also. So I just need to bide my time I guess. Doing a club flyaway next weekend as a passenger, so that will give me an opportunity to sit back and relax and just observe some stuff. When doing circuits, I often forget why I am actually learning to fly!

[StuartUK]

I had trouble with getting the height correct on the flare. I'd always flare to soon resulting in quite a firm landing. I read about a load of different techniques but one worked for me.

Assuming that you're happy with the approach on final and short final, maintain your approach attitude until you can start seeing definition in the landing strip. That might be the individual tyre marks on the asphalt, or the blades of grass on the green stuff. As soon as you see this start trying to hide the end of the runway with the nose of the plane. Don't go crazy, just a nice steady movement until it's hidden.

You'll probably be focusing on the numbers as you descend down final. As the numbers go underneath you pick another spot just in front of the nose. Keep doing this until you start seeing definition in the runway and then follow what I've said above.

It was the only thing that worked for me at the time. Once you've made a couple of good landings everything fits into place and you stop worrying about the flare.

Someone might advise against this technique as you wouldn't be able to rely on it at night but by the time you've finished your ppl you'll be landing by what feels right and not using a hard-and-fast rule/technique.

I agree with you about having a few instructors being a good thing. I found that it helped me as each of them would give me different hints and tips resulting, hopefully, in better piloting. However it was a bit annoying when they told me different ways of doing the same thing so I'd end up flying in a particular way to suit that specific instructor.

Good luck with it. It will suddenly click into place and you'll be wondering why you weren't able to do it sooner. Let us know when this happens and what technique worked for you.

[Arclite01]

StuartUK
Actually you make a great point there.

I worried that once I'd cracked landing that I'd fail next time or the time after that - but I never have.............it's 30 years now

Andy_P
I found learning to land a taildragger is best way to learn to land - if you can land that, you can easily land a tricycle undercarriage. In the taildragger the flare seems even more critical to me for the purposes of the 3 point landing. Since I learned that, I've landed a few Tricycles 'firmly' but never had a real problem.

That said, I found eventually I could land because my instructor actually 'taught' me to land - and let me land rather than take over or 'tweak it' at critical point of the flare like some instructors do......... and boy we landed all over the field until I got it..........

And concentrate on just landing - just because the instructor can land on the numbers or near the threshold doesn't mean you have to.........use the whole length if you need to - that allows for a nice flare and float before you touch down, you can learn to land short later on.

Finally - speed is key. If you are too fast you will probably bounce if you force the aeroplane onto the ground or balloon the landing if you over-flare, if too slow you will find yourself sinking below optimum glide slope and having to compensate with more power - this can lead to a premature 'arrival' and a 'harder than optimum' landing.

You will eventually form a mental picture of the flared attitude in your head and automatically align with that without even thinking about it.

Blimey, this post was meant to be a 1 liner........... hope it helps you

Arc

[localflighteast]

might be a simple suggestion but are you making sure that your seat is at the same height for each flight as well. This will affect your sight picture

People laugh at me because I insist on selecting a particular cushion for each plane (yes I'm short enough to require several cushions in a 172)
I've noticed that the heights on the seats are subtlety different , so I have to select my padding to correct for that.

[flarepilot]

1. some of the concepts glossed over so far are included IN DEPTH in "STICK AND RUDDER", including an exercise you can do at home which just amounts to standing on your toes and then coming down on your heals.

2. Seat height is vital, so vital that most airliners have EYE AIMERS to ensure that your adjust your seat just right.

3. depending on the plane, you could sit in the pilot seat and have your instructor hold the tail down so you can, at your leisure, see the flare or landing attitude (engine off, no money!).

4. one of the best exercises, with instructor, is to fly the length of the runway without landing, just above touchdown...do this a few times to a go-around...and then, just when everything looks right, the instructor can cut the throttle and you end up landing quite nicely.

5. judging flare height is covered in "stick and rudder" using everyday objects to actually judge height.

6. I am assuming you are a boy/man...and you should know what six inches is...men have been lying to women for many years about what six inches is and that is why women have been making such bad landings . ;-)


7. mentioning things like tire skids on runway to judge height is fine, and guess what, if you use a landing light at night, it works then too!


It takes a long time to learn how to land. Try going out to the instructor bench and sit there and watch others land. if you are not damaging the plane, you aren't doing too badly.


using multiple instructors isn't a good idea in my view...we don't do that out where I teach/taught.

[Chris1012]

I found a firm landing to be a good motivator! Didn't want to feel that horrible "this ride has just turned into an elevator" feeling again. The suggestions here are pretty good.
The only star piece of advice that stood out for me was when you're on the numbers don't look down at the runway, look up at the end of the runway. Mine were horrible in the beginning, never a problem with the approach, just rubbish landings.
Cracked the last landing one day and solo'd with the next day :)

[flarepilot]

just remember...learning to fly is something special...very few people ever solo a plane.

work at it

don't be hard on yourself if you don't figure it out right away.

try if you can, to explain to me the purpose of landing, the method of landing.

flight instructors (Certified Flight Instructors-airplane) are called instructors because they cannot really teach you how to fly.

your brain has to figure out how to fly/pilot a plane...an instructor can give you knowledge but your brain has to teach itself to handle a machine in more dimensions than you normally use.

we also really try to make sure you don't kill yourself or anyone else while you are sorting it out in your brain.


by the way, what kind of plane are you flying?

[Andy_P]

we also really try to make sure you don't kill yourself or anyone else while you are sorting it out in your brain.


by the way, what kind of plane are you flying?

No intention of killing myself or anyone else for that matter! I was adamant with the instructors right from the begging that if I am not getting it, then let me know. I am sure there are plenty of pilots who have obtained a licence but should never be allowed to fly as PIC.

I am flying Cessna 172SP's, mostly in the g1000 cockpit but have done a few hours in the older SP's with analogue instruments. I can switch between the 2 fairly easily.

Anyway, I have digested what everyone here has said, and will chew over it till my next flight (next Thursday was the earliest I could get).

Bought that book by the way. Arrives 31st December (amazon) so will probably have the landing sorted by then! Any reading is good reading though, might help me through my BAK and PPL exams!

[Andy_P]

Just read the details on the medical, 28 days to process via casa plus another 28 days for complex cases. I am a chronic asthmatic, so the examiner reckon casa might want me to go see a respiratory specialist first. Given the time frames with Casa, I wont see a medical to December and given the holiday period maybe even Jan. Add to that another 4 weeks for them to process my actual SPL, Probably Feb-Mar before I could legally do a solo. By then I will be at 40 hours, well past solo stage :mad:

So, plenty of time to practice getting my landing sorted.

[RatherBeFlying]

For your medical, contact your aviation medical examiner to see what extra information from the doc managing your asthma he wants. Take that information with you to your aviation doc. He will forward it to casa.

That's my guess from Canada -- check with your Oz aviation doc. There should be less delay if they already have the information than if they have to write your doc to get it.

Lots of good hints on the flare.

Sometimes I take people up a TV antenna mast to demonstrate the height where you can see individual grass blades or runway texture. That's your flare height.

[Steve6443]

I"m reading all the hints and tips here and each time such a topic comes up I think to myself: how do I land the plane? The answer: as most people have said: at some point it just clicked.

I don't "look along to the end of the runway" - well, at least I don't think I do, not consciously at least. I also don't look for something to come into view to let me know it's time to start flaring, such as tarmac markings or blades of grass. It just sort of happens, but I was once just like you, wondering will I ever get it, so my message is this:

don't be despondent, just keep practising because one day it WILL click.

It did so for me - there I was, pounding circuits when it suddenly clicked. My instructor stopped shouting "pull the stick back". Nowadays, I sometimes perform a landing which I'm pretty proud of, decide to post it on YouTube to allow myself to marvel over whenever I want. However, true to what Piperboy84 has already said, having performed such a near perfect landing, I then go off and perform 3 howlers, surprisingly enough the recordings of those landings NEVER see the light of day.......

Enjoy your flying, take heart in the fact that what you are going through we've ALL gone through - but it's worth it in the end......

[Chris1012]

Steve touches on a good point, if you can, get a go pro or something and record your landings. Landings I thought were rubbish weren't actually that bad and ones I thought were great turned out to be the instructors thumbs (tweaking).
Being able to dissect where exactly I started to go wrong between the transition of approach and landing and what action I took at that point was very useful for me.
Also probably why I never had such a problem with approaches.
Sucks about the 40 hours thing, solo or under instruction though, flying is still fun :)

[tecman]

Lot of good advice and some personal tips which may or may not work for you. Thinking back on my own experiences, and reflecting on 30 years of flying since then, I'd add a few comments which you might find useful. First, manage your expectations. It is possible to over-think this: it's a skill you're acquiring, not a precise formula you can regurgitate in the same way every time. Do it enough times with a competent instructor and it will gell eventually. Concentrate on making a good approach and arriving at the threshold with the speed right. A pet peeve of mine these days is the tendency of too many pilots to use excess approach speed, for a variety of poor reasons.

Second, you're not a passenger during the landing - make it happen. The penny dropped for me when a QF check captain told me that you never allow the aircraft to touch down until it's precisely where you want it: acceptable speed, nose attitude correct, drift compensated, etc. It sounds simple but until that time I believe I was too reluctant to positively control the process.

Third, I support the ideas posted above for considering the typical nose attitude when the pressure is off: too easy to forget what you're shooting for in the heat of the operation.

Finally, I also found the exercise of trying to fly a few cm above the runway to be a good way of learning to land. Lots of things need to come together in your brain but for me this particular exercise was one of the more important things I did.

I wouldn't personally make the multiple instructor choice but obviously do whatever works for you. But make sure you're making the choice based on learning outcomes and not as a way of avoiding critical feedback from any one individual.

Best of luck and enjoy your flying.

[Mechta]

Two things that work for me:



Look at the far end of the runway
Don't try and land. Instead, with the throttle closed, keep flying for as you possibly can and a smooth landing will be the end result.

[MyMeowCat]

Yeah I'm in the same position as the original poster. I've been at this like 20 times now and my landings still aren't good enough to go solo. I'm almost at a point where I think I might have some kind of mental disorder :) Maybe it is because us engineers think differently than most common people that makes the landing hard to get. I've made just about every mistake there is to make. I have made some good improvements recently so here's something from one engineer to another about what might help.

The book "Stick and Rudder" jokes about how pilots are "dumber" than an educated man and how educated men make bad pilots because they would fixate on the instruments....where as a dumber person have their eyes going all over the place and doing an effective instrument scan. Something like this was happening to me ---although I was not fixating at the instruments --- I was indeed fixating at the aiming point (or the numbers). The books say to have the numbers/runway not moving up or down on your glare shield so I would aim at the spot. The problem is that I would "stare" at the numbers and this is a problem because:

1) I would look only at the numbers then round out and then look down the runway when the instructor yells at me to do so. At this point since the ground came up so fast I end up in balloons or bounces. Sometimes I round out too soon and stall the plane a feet off the ground.

2) When I stare at the numbers I become fixated and the numbers seem to "hypnotize" me.

I found that it was more effective to do the following:

a) On approach to start looking all over the runway and the immediate environment. I would make a conscious effort to move my head (not just my eye balls) all around to note the end of the runway, the center line, the runway sides and the hangar buildings ect. (Stick and Rudder says to use the buildings to make your perspective) in an attempt to not be "fixated" or hypnotized. If I move my eyes around I bit I avoid being like the deer looking at the headlights.

b) Start rounding out BEFORE you get to the aiming point instead of right at the aiming point.

c) I find sometimes if I momentarily glance 45 degrees to the centerline or sometimes 90 degrees(looking right out my shoulder/window) it seems to give me a better idea how far off the ground I am.

The instructors think I have an energy management issue even when I am crossing the threshold at 65 knots as per the C172 POH. Another thing to note here is that "site picture" thing doesn't work for me much because everytime I approach it is at different speeds, different glide slope angles, different winds, ect.

The thing is instructors can easily and objectively nail you if you are not at the instrument numbers like airspeed being too high or too low...but glide slope is more subjective and they might not point out if you are too high or low. I found that when I was going 65 knots and a STEEP angle I could still have the numbers not moving on the glare shield....when I round out I think this extra height or"steepness" of the glide slope translates into extra forward energy and causes things like ballooning, floating, bounces, ect. I found in a lot of cases it felt like the aircraft was in ground effect and sliding on ice and my wings would wobble and I would drift off of the centerline...at this point it is very hard to get or maintain that "site picture". They tell me to look down the runway slightly left but then I become "fixated" at the point slightly left at the end of the runway --- and not knowing really what to look for.

I think that 65 knots they recommend is a simplified formula to prevent stalls and account for winds/gusts. I'm finding if I go 65 knots for most of the final but slow it down to 60 knots over the threshold that I seem to have a bit more control. It also helps to be at the right glide slope angle. I used to have a habit of being too high with a steep approach at 20 degrees of flap.

An instructor said something eye opening the other day. I mentioned my flare was screwed up and he said my flares are OK that day --- it is just that I had too much energy or momentum. I think this implies if you have too much kinetic energy some how that it actually screws up your flare/round-out stage....not just floating down the runway but it also puts you in ground effect where you wobble all over a cushion of air and drift/lose control, bounce, ect. In other words I had too much kinetic energy and it screws up the round-out/flare then I end up blaming my flare /round-out instead of the kinetic energy.

Try this ---- cut some speed and aim for 60 knots over the threshold (but try not to go so slow as you may stall).. Make sure your glide slope is not too steep. I remember in our books they show pictures of how a runway will look if you are going to over-shoot,under-shoot and right on the ideal slope. Make sure you are at the ideal slope because it is quite possible to come in steep and have the runway "shape" look like the over-shoot picture BUT still not have the numbers/aim point move up or down on the windshield while still being on the recommended approach speed. When you get close to the aim point --- do not become fixated and actively look around. Look at the end of the runway and all over the runway before you round-out....the idea is to prevent from being fixated.

[flarepilot]

mymeow cat


you have "stick and rudder"...well, then you didn't read it well enough.

there is a section on the so called, ''stall down landing''...this will help you in energy management.

another thing, the POH most likely quotes the max weight landing speed...and most POHs have charts to use different speeds when you work out a proper weight and balance for landing.

as most of the ppruners know, airliners change speeds for landing based upon weight.

well, it matters in little planes too.


I knew one pilot who was very intelligent, just a wonderful person. A neurologist, a teacher of other doctors at Standford. He was taking lessons from another instructor and I gave him sort of a phase check.

He couldn't flare well. I looked at his sunglasses...they were the kind with sort of leather flaps on the side, like a mountain climber or glacier explorer might wear. Maybe you all have seen them? He called them his Denali glasses (Mt Mckinley in Alaska I think).

I said: doc, you have no side vision. save those glasses for mountain climbing and try my RAY BAN aviators.

We went around the PATTERN (not circuit) again and he did fine.

ASK yourself about your vision...is anything compromising it? Do you wear corrective lenses?

Oh, and those darn cessnas with the high wing...try flying a piper cherokee/warrior, archer...see if things are better!

[Andy_P]

Maybe it is because us engineers think differently than most common people that makes the landing hard to get

Lol. Engineer here too!

Interesting how you mention speed. My instructors are pretty strict on keeping the 65knots. I have noticed on gusty days, they even up the speeds, often 70knots and as fast as 80knots sometimes.

I am up on Thursday morning, so I am going to pay a lot of attention to where I am looking. Now I think about it, I may be starting at the numbers for too long. If I am aware of it, I can correct it.

On a side note, got a surprise yesterday and my medical turned up in the mail! So sent off all my SPL docs today. Hopefully I will have a licence before christmas?

[Crash one]

I've heard people say "add half the gust plus 5 plus another 5 for the wife & kids". It's bull****e, as another engineer, it's like saying "leave it a few thou plus & it will fit better. Well it will either rattle or not go at all innit? I don't think it's engineering, it's fizix, at 70/80 knots its flying, not landing!!

[Andy_P]

When I say 70-80knots, that is on final. Once the threshold disappears its down to idle. May or may not be correct, but most people seem to do that. Its a coastal strip, so 15knots of breeze is not uncommon, with some or most of that as a crosswind.

Dont get me wrong here, I have been taught 65 knots for final, so thats what I fly.

[Andy_P]

EDIT. Just read POH, final approach with 30 degrees flap is 60-70knots, no flap is 65-75knots which marries up with what I have observed. The powerpoint slide I was given shows 65knot final with full flap, so that is what I have been practicing. I am now reading more and more into the POH, so more exact figures are being learned.

Aircraft is Cessna 172S, with G1000, but the POH for the 172S with analog instruments shows the same figures.

Side note, when I first started flying, I hated the G1000, now growing to like it. Plus the g1000's are a new aircraft and the one I have had for the last 4 hours (and next 3+ hours) has about 500 hours up (I actually did one hour in it when it was new new). There is a huge difference in the way the new v old feel. The main thing that stands out to me, is the 500 hour aircraft is easier to taxi than the 5000 hour aircraft. Things just seem to respond better! May well be my imagination as I am getting the hours up (probable!)!

[tecman]

I think you want to aim for some clarity of thought here and try not to conflate different situations, configurations and recommended speeds. Reading the POH is definitely a good start and, as someone pointed out, the speeds therein can be safely taken as 'worst case' for all but the most extreme situations. For example, I can't think of any self-imposed situation where I'd fly an 80 kt final in a C172, even flapless. The only reason might be an operational one in complying with an ATC sequencing request, which I assume you're not worried about at this point. In a normal training situation, with two blokes in a nice new 172, you can safely assume you'll have "energy management" issues if you cross the threshold at more than 60 kts.

A number of posters have mentioned the importance of not succumbing to the trap of excess speed and it's something I'd strongly endorse. It is possible to drive a C172 to land, with a long hold off and a poor flare, but it's not something you want to be doing on those inland Qld strips you'll no doubt get to try during your navs. With many short, rough strips you'll get to appreciate the beauty of lots of Cessna drag, and precise approach control with power. That will all come a lot easier if you learn a good approach and flare technique, with moderate speeds, at the outset.

As you fly more types of aircraft you'll find there are many 'slicker' aircraft than Cessna's. With many of those aircraft, ranging from some of the LSAs to Lancairs etc, the speed control is really important - you just don't have those Cessna barn door flaps to save you!

[MyMeowCat]

@ flarepilot: yeah that Stick and Rudder is a good book with lots of good stuff in it. Too bad I had to return it to the library --- I will have another look at it.


As for the vision thing ---- I don't have any corrective lenses. The idea of looking a round and even to the side is a trick for myself to prevent from staring and being fixated.


@ Andy_P: At my school they have us going final at 65 knots with 20 degrees of flap and go power idle before the threshold and glide in. In my 1977 C172 Skyhawk POH the approach speed is 55 knots to 65 knots so they have me going in at the highest setting. I think they do this as a safety factor against stall and wind. I don't think my instructors mind you being at 60 at the threshold (note this is only around the threshold).

Next time when you approach ask your instructor what he thinks of your glide slope...mine doesn't mention anything to me unless I'm dangerously off. I think they are seeing if the student can develop "judgement" on their own. My gut feel is that if you are steep then when you level off then your speed will increase because all the energy from that height gets converted to speed. If you approach at 65 then when your round out you are likely to be slightly over 65 for a while especially if you are steep.

The point is that your instructor may not be talking to you about your glide slope so you should ask while on final approach.


While on short final (on a zero wind day) see if you can pitch for 60 --- in a sense you are slowing it up a bit more before you get to the round-out part.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi... I would just like to know what the OP does with the throttle during the approach... When I was pre-solo the instructor would ask what revs we should use. If it was calm the answer was 1600, if there was some wind then 1800, and if it was a lot more wind we would select 1900rpm, and hold that all the way down on base leg and final.

Nowadays I 'modulate' the throttle depending upon what the scenery looks like out of the window, which (nearly) always gives me a landing on the piano keys. (btw. most airfields I fly at have several hundred metres of undershoot.)

[Andy_P]

Nailed it folks, 3 consecutive landings near text book (although a high hour pilot might disagree!). To top it off, had to do right hand circuits today which I have never done before (noise abatement rules prevent left hand using this particular runway) . Moved onto flapless approach today. A couple of go arounds, I called it, instructor agreed so I guess my judgement is getting pretty good.

MyMeowCat, phiggsbroadband: doing 75knot base, 65knot final. Down to idle when the numbers disappear (so basically on the threshold). Drop down to 1700 rpm downwind with 10degree flap, then 1500rpm turning base with 20 degree flap. Final is 30degree flap and RPM depends on airspeed. OF course all this depends on windspeed, but for the best part I am flying early mornings before work so there is pretty much no wind at all.

MyMeowCat: we use full flap (30deg) on final. I think some of the older models have 40 degree full flap, which maybe to much in your case? As for glide slope, I can pick when I am to high or low now. I can tell when I am too high turning final without using altimeter (went through a stage where the FI blanked out all instruments except ASI) and this is normally the crucial part for me. If I am at the right hight as I turn final, my slope is normally perfect.

ktcy152, re cowl on horizon, pretty much what I did today. Think somewhere in this thread someone said the attitude should be the same as for takeoff. Thats what I did! (thanks to whoever that was!)

I can tell you, I am so over circuits now! Just need to practice some more circuit emergencies, but almost there!

[RatherBeFlying]

Take out the aircraft manual and work out your gross weight with instructor and however much fuel you have aboard.

Approach Speed = root(actual weight)/root(gross weight) x Recommended Approach Speed (which is at gross weight)

So if you are 300 lbs below a gross of 2300 (depends on your model),

we would get 60.6 kt instead of 65 kt.

If you are making a long flight to a short strip, you might want to calculate your approach speed according to your expected landing weight. The 30 flap looks after extra energy and 40 is much better. Extra speed in a Tiger with small flaps is much harder to get rid of as I found out:\

[tecman]

RBF, that's a good exercise, especially in terms of seeing for yourself what sensible margins are. While I understand why instructors stress the need for adequate airspeed, I've found that in real life I spend more time thinking about how SLOW I can safely approach. As you point out, that involves a knowledge of the aircraft loading, conditions etc. While I wouldn't suggest that a 12 hour pilot focus too much on risk management, the reality is that for daily GA ops excess speed is a far greater danger than falling out of the sky, particularly on the marginal strips often encountered in rural Australia.

And yes, even little aircraft can be very humbling in the face of sloppy technique. I still chuckle when my 'big iron' mates hop into my P2002JF. Just as I did on my first circuit, they invariably find that unless they're properly on the minimum or back side of the power curve, they might as well give it away and have another go. We're kind of ready for it in a Lancair or similar but the insult from a puddle jumper is humbling indeed!

[ktcy152]

Congratulations !:ok:

[AirborneAgain]

Take out the aircraft manual and work out your gross weight with instructor and however much fuel you have aboard.

Approach Speed = root(actual weight)/root(gross weight) x Recommended Approach Speed (which is at gross weight)

So if you are 300 lbs below a gross of 2300 (depends on your model),

we would get 60.6 kt instead of 65 kt.
As tecman says, that's a good exercise, but you've got to be careful with what kind of speeds you are using. This calculation only works with calibrated airspeed (CAS), while POH speeds are always given as indicated airspeed (IAS). The difference between the two can be substantial. A C172S has a 10 (!) knot difference between IAS and CAS at stall speed with flaps extended. (Less at approach speeds.)

So to perform this calculation correctly, use the airspeed calibration tables/charts in your POH to convert the approach speed to CAS, calculate the new approach speed using the formula above and then convert back to IAS.

Alternatively, you could use the stall speed for your actual weight (from the POH) and multiply by 1.3 to get the appropriate approach speed. This is how the POH approach speed is calculated in the first place. (Again be careful to distinguish between IAS and CAS!)

[Andy_P]

Relax lads, I am only a 15 hour learner!! Still learning basic flying! At the moment I am still trying to get used to finding the correct attitude, air speed, bank angles, altitudes etc.. :eek:

I have done plenty of reading on the maths part, but its still early days for me. Its been 15 years since I have done any study, so learning to fly, and learning to study again too! Its all starting to happen now, everything converging at one point. Its a good feeling actually, I get much pleasure from learning something new!

[localflighteast]

See , told you it happens!
It's a great feeling when it finally does.
congrats

[flarepilot]

one of the most important things about landing is knowing how to fly slowly


so, go up to a safe altitude (3000 agl or more) and configure for landing...fly as slowly as possible, note the airspeed.

then

stall the plane, note the speed

recover, get this part right, RECOVER

then take the speed you noted as stalling, multiply it by 1.3 and you now have vref on a nice day with steady wind.


try coming in at that speed on final, slowing down when you ''cross the fence'' to touchdown just above stalling speed...a gentle wheeze fromt he stall warning as the wheels touch is nice, but should be done with caution.


in that way you don't even have to pull out the poh and calculate


and what is over the fence/cross the fence? how about on glideslope at 50's agl or half your wingspan

[AirborneAgain]

stall the plane, note the speed
[...]
then take the speed you noted as stalling, multiply it by 1.3 and you now have vref on a nice day with steady wind.This is not a good idea. The way you describe it, you will do the calculation using IAS, but you must use CAS.

If you take the C172S the OP is flying, at gross weight it will stall at 40 kt IAS (assuming the POH data is correct). 40*1.3 = 52. 52 kt IAS is about 57 kt CAS. But the CAS at stall is 48-50 kt (depending on power). Assume 49. 49*1.3 ≈ 64. So you will end up with a Vref about 7 kt too slow!

(Not incidentally, 64 kt CAS corresponds to 61 kt IAS, which is exactly the Vref figure given in the POH.)

[Crash one]

I would suggest that a 172being flown solo or 2up with no baggage is unlikely to be at gross weight. 1.3 times Vs (IAS) should be perfectly good enough. I think this is developing into a mountain/molehill scenario. Taking it up to 3000 ft & playing with it would, in my opinion humble or otherwise, be a good exercise.

[AirborneAgain]

I would suggest that a 172being flown solo or 2up with no baggage is unlikely to be at gross weight. 1.3 times Vs (IAS) should be perfectly good enough.

It doesn't matter if the aircraft is at gross weight or not. I used gross weight because the POH had figures for that which I could use as an example. The C172 has a substantial difference between IAS and CAS at high nose-up attitudes. If you did the calculation using a lower weight stall IAS you would still end up with a too low Vref for that weight.

I think this is developing into a mountain/molehill scenario.

I don't think so. In my example, calculating with IAS would lose you half the margin to stall that you are supposed to have at Vref.

Taking it up to 3000 ft & playing with it would, in my opinion humble or otherwise, be a good exercise.Now, that is something I think we can all agree on!

[Crash one]

Can't remember who it was, Alex Henshaw perhaps who used to stall the Spitfire in the downwind, & then land at that. Dependent on fuel load etc. Shirley if yr worried about 1.3 not being enough at IAS then go for 1.5 or FEEL the a/c. At what point does one do all this calculation? Landing speeds will vary a bit day by weather by fuel load etc. Mine stalls at 40knots at gross clean. In a light steady wind,solo, half tank, half flaps its perfectly controllable landing at 45.
It is not a 172.

[flarepilot]

oh, here is an article that shows others think like I do


WHAT IS FINAL APPROACH SPEED? (http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueJA05/BasicsJA05.html)

[flarepilot]

I took a look at the POH for this plane...now I remember why I hate cessnas so much


a piper will give you information for different weights

so, like I said, go up, find out what the stall speed is for your exact weight(safely)in KIAS, then convert it to KCAS, multiply that by 1.3, convert that number back to KIAS and come in at that speed.

but you see your poh doesn't conceive flying below max gross speed for landing

or, go out and rent a piper, and use their poh (last one I looked at would give you lower weight numbers) and see how things should work


I think cessna decided max weight was good enough and safe enough...but I don't think it was precise enough. but it makes the lawyers happy doesn't it.

and funny how we use INDICATED airspeed for flying and indeed the bottom of the white arc is indicated speeds.

good luck, fly safe and add five knots for unknown wind, non standard annemometer height or the wife kids or tax collector

[Crash one]

Fly the aircraft, find out the stall speed, do not make it complicated, & Certainly Do Not Add five knots for anybody. Otherwise you will end up at cruise speed & that is not a landing speed.
I give up!!!

[Desert185]

While on short final (on a zero wind day) see if you can pitch for 60 --- in a sense you are slowing it up a bit more before you get to the round-out part.

Primarily for the OP, who is trying to break the code:

If you only pitch, you most likely will leave the desired profile. How about pitch and/or power for 60? Both influence and control airspeed and profile to one degree or another. Fast, slow or on 1.3 Vso, the means to correct/maintain may depend more on one that the other. Blend the two, with more of one than the other depending on the situation of current speed, weight, turbulence, downdraft/updraft, etc. When really slow, it is possible (and preferable) to flare with power.

Pitch alone doesn't always control airspeed on final. Its only simple after a lot of practice.

Consider moving the seat height up or down (if possible) for a sight picture that suits you, and scan from the nose to the end of runway or horizon until you find your sweetspot to judge flare height and flare control.

Configure earlier, trim and stabilize the speed for more accurate landings. This is especially important when in the backcountry when normal patterns/circuits are not possible due to terrain/obstructions at different airports. This works even at same-same, cookie-cutter, flatland airports. A good landing begins early in the approach. Good luck.

[MyMeowCat]

Once your figure out that the approach and speed are fixed then that leaves the flare itself. The next trick to learn how to round out and level off. I often pull back much or fast. I'm thinking while in landing attitude slight nose down I might only have to pull back the controls about 1 in maybe about 2 seconds?

[Andy_P]

So here I was, rounding out and flaring ok. Today, thrown in the deep end with crosswind landings! Right on the limit of 15 knots too. Baptism of fire for the learner! Was very gusty too. I probably managed 2 out of 7 landings well, the rest were terrible. Only 2 go arounds today!


The thing that got me the most today, was turning onto the crosswind leg (which was more downwind than crosswind) how much the gusts roll the aircraft over, then when you roll it back the gust goes and you are flying straight again, then bam, hit again.

FWIW, I am a racing sailor, so I understand wind patterns very well. Its amazing how useful the water is when you are up in the air too. I already know how to read wind gusts and direction and it certainly gives you a huge advantage when learning to fly.

[Desert185]

Learning to fly in lousy weather is like practicing trap shooting on windy days. You'll master the concept and ace it on better days. Don't turn down dual instruction during bad weather days. You'll be a better pilot.

[AlexF388]

I'm in exactly this position at the moment. Just cannot get that flare nailed! Used to fly gliders which is why I have a habit of not flaring quite enough. I'm safe.. But not quite safe enough if you get my drift. Really annoying!! Circuit after circuit, bang after bang. Done 27 circuits now and wondering if it'll ever get better :(

[Andy_P]

Dont worry, I did more than 27! Probably took me about 10 hours!

[engineno9]

Hi all,


Just to add my ten cents to this thread - I did my PPL in the States in a 152, and at the start I always used to flare that little bit too early, leading to a nice 'thud' on touchdown as the plane dropped onto the runway.


Looking back, I put it down to just being absolutely scared stiff of bouncing the nosewheel, and also the instructor beside me shouting 'hold it off' 'hold it off' to me as we came down.


With a little practice though, I found that the trick was just to let the plane keep coming down a little bit longer - I definitely developed a better feel for it once I started landing solo and had the chance to experiment a bit.


I guess it's a bit like when you learn to drive and you give parked cars a wide berth to your left as you pass (or your right in the States!). After a while you get a better feel for where the side of your car is, and you don't have to move across so much.

[Chase_BHX]

I finally went solo today after 60+ hours. Think it is probably partly related to age 50+ which makes picking up new motor skills takes longer than when younger and work leading to several gaps of three or four weeks between lessons.
Not sure what made the difference as had a three week gap since last leason. At one point instructor was worried I was not progressing so had a check flight with CFI. His helpful advice for me (6 foot in PA 28) was that at lading I am the same height off the runway as when standing next to the plane. Otherwise he said I was not far off (apart from the last where I dropped the nose wheel rather hard as soon as the main wheels touched down) and I have done 5 more hours since but until today was not getting the round out and flare consistent. Usually 1st and last poor. Record was one lesson with all go arounds (bounce, drift off the side of he declared runway, too fast, too high and one because the runway was still occupied at decision height). Advantages (?) of number of ciciuits is I can fly a go around consistently while complying with a noise abatement circuit, have done practice forced landings into nearly all the available fields (and one of the two grass strips) andr glide approaches from most parts of the circuit where can reach the airfield including to a full stop landing rather than go around.
Made a conscious decision when realised first solo was going to be a long time coming to enjoy the flying with an instructor. Did a few general handling / practice navigation lessons but also flew my wife to the flying proms at Shuttleworth and to Gloucester to drop off a club pilot flying back in another plane.
The pleasure of flying solo in the twilight looking down on the local villages was magical. So people on the thread are right it does come eventually.
Chris

[Piper.Classique]

Well done, Chase! Keep on enjoying your flying, and do post again soon to let us know your next milestone.

[Andy_P]

Well done chase. The main object holding me back from circuit solo's at the moment is my licence from CASA. Doing some exams this weekend in preparation. Looks like its going to be in the new year for me.

I got my copy of stick and rudder, excellent reading so far. I would also highly recommend this book to others. It dumbs down the physics/engineering a bit, to help make it easier to understand.

[AlexF388]

I finally did it and did my first solo today!! My stage check landings were a wee bit flat but much better when my instructor said "let's play a keep the nose above the horizon game".

To my surprise he asked me taxy back and at the ramp he hopped out and let me go!

Unforgettable experience!

[localflighteast]

CONGRATULATIONS !!!!:D

feels good doesn't it?

have your feet touched the earth yet ? :ok:

[Steve6443]

Hi Alex,

Good to hear, it's a great feeling you'll always remember. Just out of interest, where are you learning to fly? Not RNAS Heron, are you? I ask because I have a friend who lives in Yeovil, keeps on about wanting to fly and is wondering where would be best to learn.....

[AlexF388]

Just about touched the earth :) that PA28 took off like a helicopter and from then on in it was a completely surreal experience :)

I'm actually learning in Florida at the moment, at EFT doing an EASA PPL only. Weather here isn't great though, getting some completely unseasonal storms.

I am usually in or around the base most of the time, however if you do not have a relationship with the armed forces or the station, it can be hard to learn there. Compton Abbas isn't too far from Yeovil and charge reasonable rates, also Dunkeswell is another reasonably local airfield. :)

[MyMeowCat]

I was wondering if anyone ever tried to teach themselves how to round out and flare by watching youtube videos people put up of their approaces and landings?:)

[Andy_P]

I was wondering if anyone ever tried to teach themselves how to round out and flare by watching youtube videos people put up of their approaces and landings?

I tried to find some decent youtube vids, but there was bugger all out there.

[Dave Wilson]

I was wondering if anyone ever tried to teach themselves how to round out and flare by watching youtube videos people put up of their approaces and landings?

Well, next time you fly try blanking out the whole of the cockpit and leaving a monitor sized hole to look through...:)

[Andy_P]

You do so well, and then.... Couldn't make it happen today. Round out and flare not to bad, but my approaches were just horrible. To high, to low, to fast to slow, not on the centre line... Bad day I guess.

So last flight I did was in a plane with analogue instruments, today it was glass. Of course switching is great, teaches you both, but I found my self hunting around the cockpit looking for instruments... Grrrr, so instructor covers up all the instruments! Start flying without instruments and all of a sudden things improve a bit. The instructors have tons of experience, but I cant judge speed and I really do need that airspeed indicator, especially on final. The idea today was to try and get me to judge the speed and altitude, not to be exact, but so you have an idea.

I must be at about 20 hours now, so frustrating at times. I wished I started doing this when I was younger! I reckon it would have been a lot easier!

[Ph1l]

Armchair flying is my suggestion, you know how to do it, you know what your struggling to put into practice. Just take some time fairly regularly, close you eyes and fly through a circuit. It really helped me when I was learning and I still do it now and it makes a difference.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll get it , but even the best pilots have a rough landing from time to time so don't beat yourself up.

[flarepilot]

dear original poster

did you try my exercise of going down an escalator?

[Andy_P]

dear original poster

did you try my exercise of going down an escalator?

No, but I did follow your recommendation of buying stick and rudder, and I must concur that it is an excellent book so far.

Re the escalator, well those things are still dangerous at the moment. Knee is doing well, but still got issues. In fact its looking like I may have to go for more surgery, which sucks cause it will once again ground me from all my sports/hobbies.

But, here is the thing. I am a sailor and a motorcyclist. So I understand wind, and I understand the 'look where you are going' thing. But, do you think I can apply them subconsciously to flying like I do when sailing/riding? Nope...

So I got the round out/flare/hold off part working pretty well now. But, for the life of me I can't compensate for wind. Get this, I can put a boat on a trailer or pontoon when there is 30knots of crosswind and 5 knots of tide, but I cant convince myself to turn early (or late) on base to final to compensate for wind that I know is there!!! To add insult to injury, we fly over water, so I can see the wind too!

[Piper.Classique]

Andy_P I suggest you take a break from the circuit and do some navigation, aerobatics, whatever, then go back fresh. Going round and round is frustrating, makes you stale, and is probably counterproductive, especially as your medical may be delayed.

[Crash one]

I've noticed that if I don't fly for a month & then take off go round the circuit & land immediately it is usually crap. Take off & chuck it about a bit for 15 mins the landing is fine. Why's that?

[MyMeowCat]

Funny thing about me is that for some reason most of my landings (touch and go's) are questionable except the last one of the day (the full stop) is often perfect!

[horizon flyer]

Lots of good advice, I would add that if you plan to go on to higher performance aircraft also carry some power on approach and don't get into the habit of reducing power and pitching up going over the fence because if you do, it will seem to fall out of the sky. Fly it to the flair then pitch up pull the power and hold off for a nice soft landing. Also keep your eye line high, wind the seat up till your head touches the ceiling then wind down an inch.

You don't say if you are on grass or tarmac. If on tarmac watch your first landing on grass, without the runway edges, you will flair to low and bounce, the other way round may flair to high. Good flying

[flarepilot]

mymeowcat


a very long time ago, many discovered that if you wanted to learn how to land, you practiced landings.

and if you wanted to learn how to touch and go you would practice touch and goes.

so, why not try just doing ffull stop taxi back landings.

touch and goes may be fine for fullfilling day currency but for the learning student...learn to land, learn to takeoff as different things.

of course go arounds should be practiced too.


in fact, in the USA< you can be cleared for the OPTION by ATC...a touch and go, a full stop landing with taxi back (additional taxi clearance reqd) a low pass a stop and go etc.


I'd rather see 5 full stops in an hour than 10 touch and goes.

[Crash one]

Also to agree with the above, to retain currency with a taildragger, touch & go's are not allowed, they must be landings down to taxi speed.

[India Four Two]

Crash one,

I absolutely agree. The closest I've come to ground-looping was below 15kts at the end of a landing roll.

[MyMeowCat]

Thanks flarepilot -- I think the reason for my touch and gos not doing so well was because of a subconsious fear I'll use up the whole run way so I had a habit of trying to bring her to touch-down too soon.


I've been making some good landings for the past while now so I'm about ready to go solo --- everything seems to have come together.


In the past my landings were a mess and I always did something wrong. Maybe to help out anyone who has had all sorts of issues like me I'll post up a few things that seemed to fix my issues. Me and the original poster probabaly have certain things in our heads which were not solved by instructors saying things like to look down the runway, explaining how its like slow flight or chanting to hold off ect.)


I hope the following might be helpful for some people having similar issues:


1) Think of the flare as a three step procedure: The round-out to stop the descent, then the level-off to bleed off the excess energy then the final "flare". One of the problems I had was thinking it was all a singular movement and I would go from descent attitude to nose up which caused ballooning, rising then stalling then dropping to the runway, ect.


2) Go to the airport and watch the C172s approach. I noticed that the nose angle was only slightly pointed downwards and the round-out was fairly gentle and only took a little bit of back-pressure to lift the nose a few degrees to level attitude.


3) I read some good stuff on "Stick and Rudder" about how it says people's distance judgement is crap and pilots use angles and "perspective". It didn't really help me right away. I did try another exercise which helped where someone suggested squattng up and down and looking at a table top or bookshelf and judging angles...then things started to click together.


4) I found by looking at the end of the runway a bit before crossing the threshold helps. Too often I would get fixated at the numbers/aiming point, pull back then look at the end of the runway...at which point find the nose above the horizon and rising again. I find it helps to look at the end of the runway (picking a point like the numbers at the opposite end)even before the round-out. Picking a spot at the opposite end of the run way helped me think of it as a pivot point or some angle thing which seemed to kick off some kind of trigonometry thing in my head...as the angle gets less and less the distance to the ground is getting smaller until I just seemed to mysteriously know when to round out.


5) The next thing was to get used to that sliding feeling you get when in ground effect and to not get scared an pull up ect. I taught my self to appreciate that feeling as it means I'm about the right distance off the ground. It also means I'm at that point where I should be looking for the "site picture" you hear instructors talk about.


Some other things I did which might help but unsure of is:


a) stop watching videos of aircraft landings other than what you currently fly. Somehow this got into my head a C172 lands as fast as a jet and with high nose up attitudes.


b) Pretend your hand is an airpane and land it on the table top with point #3 above emphasizing the roundout and flying level seemed to help me get a kinesthetic "feel" for the landing process. I know this sounds wierd but I think it helped me.


We dont have much wind here but I guess the next step is to try some of those nasty crosswinds

[Crash one]

The other thing about full stop landings rather than touch & go. You are prob being yelled at by the instructor to get the flaps up, carb heat cold, throttle up etc in whatever order that particular instructor wants it. If the runway is any more than 300metres then not having to concentrate on re-configuring the aircraft for take off will allow you to think "land" & not "go". Anyway, don't practice landing on 300metre runways till you can land in 300metres!!

[AirborneAgain]

Don't you turn off carb heat on short final in preparation for a possible go around? That's what I was taught and I always thought it was SOP.

[Crash one]

Ok forget the carb heat, the point I'm making is the thought that the exercise is to take off again, therefore some of the thinking capacity during the landing phase is directed towards the next bit, taking off again. I have done it myself, it seems half of the brain is trying to land & the other half is saying "take off as soon as possible so don't waste time landing. Difficult to explain but isolated details like carb heat on or off is only a part of it. Besides, I've landed all the way to the hangar with carb heat hot, I've also done t&g with it hot, rate of climb isn't quite so good but not life threatening. It was a decision of mine to see what the real effect would be rather than the parrot fashion thing! I've also taken off (t&g) with all the flaps down, across a flat barley field, just to see if it could climb enough. I'm still here & I know that even on a short strip go around I can throttle up first & reconfigure when I'm ready, is that a bad thing? (My aircraft not necessarily any other).

[flarepilot]

first, the 172 and carb heat

I hate the 172, luv th e cherokee series

but if you have to go around and you have your carb heat on in the 172, there is a way to position your throttle hand to hit both throttle and carb heat at the same time.

my meow cat

read and re read stick and rudder...think of it as cheap flying lessons...readit ten times and its worth 200 hours

[Andy_P]

Yay, CASA finally took my money!! I guess that means my licence is now being processed.

Had 4 different instructors the last 4 lessons, all happy with my flare and roundout etc. Just need to tidy up my approach speeds now (they are not too bad, just a little slow to react to changes due to wind and thermals etc).

[Andy_P]

Was told today I should cut down on lessons until my licence shows up. They reckon I am good to go solo. FI says I need to just get up there myself and practice! At the 26hour mark now.