Are the Army more competative?

[Whenurhappy]

I'm settling down at a large, Purple training establishment in the South of England. Well, it's meant to be Joint, but as I have learned, that is spelt A-R-M-Y. I've not served with my family on a joint UK unit before but I am struck by how competative the Majors and Lt Cols are. It's all about that slot on the Command Board - I know of several Majors and Lt Cols who have PVRd within minutes of getting the results of the latest Command Board. Moreover, the wives very definitely carry the rank, in a way that I thought had died out in the 1980s. Perhaps I am out of date, too, but do RAF spouses on a large station constantly talk of Command Opportunities and of the Mil (Air) Sec's decisions?

What has also struck us is how patronising many of the Army personnel - and in particular their spouses - are about the RAF. Everything seems to be centred on how many days the SP (usually) lost of their R&R because 'of RAF (as in Rif-) movers'. I attended the Remembrance Service and they had all been rummaging through the corporate dressing-up box. In the past I used to marvel at the range and variety of Army uniforms; now I just think the whole lot just look a bit silly, given how that many of the Regiments are reduced to Battalion-minus size. Imagine if every Sqn in the RAF wore a completely different uniform? Friendships, it seems are also garnered on what leverage that friendship might have on elevating the SPs'career.

I've done the tours in MB as well as the operational detachment, but it seems to this cohort, a 'black bag' job in Town is primus inter pares. Really? When they mention they are going to the 5th Floor, I casually ask 'Embankment or Whitehall' side? - an effective conversation killer, I've now learned.

Mostly we've made friends with non-teeth arm SP and their families; they don't seem quite so pretentious. My wife was relating to me a coffee morning where some of the wives were proudly comparing how young their children were when they sent them to Boarding School; those who sent them under the age of 8 clearly demonstrating private incomes (CEA is available for 8+). We've gone down the boarding route, but it's not a 'Top Trumps' topic, as it seems for many of the spouses. Another topic was the age of cars on the patch - with very derogatory comments for those that were more than 2-3 years old, including the ultimate put down - 'Well, he's a LE (late entry - ie commissioned from the ranks)' as an explanation for a 7 year old Disco!

I know I've been out of the mainstream RAF for a while on secondment, but are we really that competative?

[Ken Scott]

I have a relative in the army & everything you've posted rings true about him & them. The Army is essentially a Victorian institution in attitude and it rather beggars belief that they carry on in this fashion in the 21st Century. The regimental system, retraining units in a different role every 3 years, the different uniforms, all are hopelessly outdated and unjustifiable to anyone outside of that service.

[jayteeto]

SP, see me!
Trust me, RAF wives are just as good at wearing rank. My ex missus was humiliated in the officers mess at swinderby. An administrator s wife chatted to my 6 month pregnant other half for ages. She was Mrs Flt Lt, assuming I was an EFTS flying instructor. When it was revealed in conversation, she uttered, "oh, you're just a STUDENTS wife?" and turned her back, walking away.
One of our crewman was married to a doctor, she made the mistake of talking to an unemployed squadron wife. I believe she saw red and bit back, very very well.
In summary, we shouldn't throw stones in glass houses........

[MG]

Whenurhappy, I'm getting the feeling that we're in the same place, both physically and metaphorically. I too thought that of the Remembrance Parade, The army have their barrack dress, which is a brown version of our No 2, yet the power of the regimental system says they can completely ignore the rules. I don't really care that it looks silly, but I do care when it costs money.
We have a full mix of services in our place and, without a doubt, the only people who don't treat me as a professional equal (I'm one rank lower than most) are some of the army, and not just teeth-arm. Only when we're in mess kit, once a year, are they reminded that rank isn't everything.
Like you, I never used to think this, but years of working for the army, directly and indirectly, have brought me to this.

The one thing I do admire, though, is the transparency of their promotion system, and pecking order. I never really had an idea of which 'third' I was in, so it might have been useful and I would have wasted less effort. Their E1 / E2 system does take a bit of getting used to. Some cap badges won't board for an E2 job as failing it would put a good candidate into a Joint OC Bogs & Drains post; that can't be right.

[Bob Viking]

I'm not passing comment about what you've said with regards to your current location. There are probably some d1cks there but that's true of everywhere. IMHO our Army are bloody good at what they do and as long as the system works for them I'm not going to criticise from afar. They might do well to remember that we are (believe it or not) bloody good at what we do as well though(given the kit we have available).
It's a shame that there are old fashioned entrenched attitudes still prevalent (from SP and wives) but they appear everywhere. I also like the tradition of the Army uniforms and don't care how much money it wastes. I believe some things (should) transcend budgets.
Just my humble opinion of course.
BV:O

[diginagain]

Are the Army more competative? In spelling competitions?

[Whenurhappy]

I'm not having a go at the professionalism of the Army - and I have worked with army personnel in the Balkans, Middle East and, of course, Afghanistan. But the corporately-entrenched attitudes, which I believe are holding the British Army back, have completely surprised me. Perhaps because my location is the crucible 'of the good and the great' but I do wonder how much the Army has moved on from the days when Arthur Harris was DS at the Army Staff College.

Vis a vis Remembrance Service, I wore No1s, much to the surprise of army neighbours who assumed that I was a civilian, because my job mostly necessitates civilian dress. But there seemed to be a competition who could outdress each other; there was a RRS officer with a sporran which was brushing the ground! Not that they can read our bar code system of rank designation...which is why on ops I have routinely worn a US rank badge alongside my rankslides.

[Canadian Break]

Chap - give as good as you get is my advice. When in some dusty and remote part of the Globe I was invited for afternoon tea (I kid you not) in another part of the Camp (Camp Charlie anyone) by the Colonel (Lt Col actually, but you know how they are - brother of a very well-known actress and absolutely a top man). I arrived at the appointed hour to be shown into the Mess (tent) and partake of an afternoon tea that would have out the Dorchester to shame. During tea the conversation turns to the "family" home in the Borders - to cut a long story short I managed to get the resident GR4 sqn at Al Udeid to get onto their mates back in Blighty and arrange for an overflight and picture of said pile) and presented it to the CO next time I saw him. My advice then? Go offensive (in the nicest possible way) early!

[Lima Juliet]

I can't stand the kind of churlish rudeness and prigishness that you describe. I usually let it pass once or twice and then start to question what they do/have achieved and then belittle it as quickly and succinctly as possible with a killer line and wander off shaking my bonce from side to side. Lines such as 'oh dear, I suppose someone has to do it', 'well maybe you should've worked harder at school' or 'never mind, I'm sure your next posting will add value' normally leave chinless wonders staggered at my sudden rudeness following my previous painful tolerance of their attitude.

Life is too short to hang around people like this and I see them at my child's prep school (non-CEA funded) quite a bit; hence I only socialise with a select few that I can stand to be around!

LJ

PS. CB "Go offensive (in the nicest possible way) early!" - absolutely! :D

[Whenurhappy]

Yes, I think a number of put-downs are in order, after all their careers have no impact on mine; it's just my wife that has to put up with their priggish wives and their haute pretentions on a daily basis.

[downsizer]

You know she can socialise with some normal people right? Maybe even some civilians....:\

[TomJoad]

You know she can socialise with some normal people right? Maybe even some civilians....:\

:D:D:D:D Love it and sooo right.

[Mr C Hinecap]

much to the surprise of army neighbours who assumed that I was a civilian, because my job mostly necessitates civilian dress

Others have been known to ask that question of you - whilst in uniform I believe ;)

Play them at their game. Day 2 working with the Brown Jobs. In a monthly Ops Brief, some 40 Army types from SO2 to proper Colonel. Col chairing the mtg tells me that because I'm the only Crab in the room to expect some serious banter for the rest of my tour. After slowly scanning all of the faces in the room I turned back to the Col and informed him that 'the odds look about right, Sir. Shall we crack on then?' No bother after that.

[Easy Street]

The OP paints a good picture of the stereotypical 'teeth arm' Army officer. Taken as a cohort, the reason why they are so noticeably different from everyone else in the armed forces is simple - social class. The behaviours described by the OP (open ambition, willingness and ability to change career tack at the first adverse occurrence, spousal one-upmanship) are not specifically Army officer characteristics, but instead derive from upper- and upper-middle-class backgrounds. These chaps have been groomed for success since birth; smooth progression through prep school, public school, Russell Group university, an eminently suitable marriage and rapid progression up the early stages of the career ladder all ensure that by their mid-30s their sense of entitlement has been reaffirmed by (partnership in a city firm) / (promotion to Lt Col and selection for ACSC) - delete as appropriate.

Of course, I generalise. But every stereotype has at least a grain of truth at its core. Upper-middle and upper-class individuals can be found all over the forces, but the difference is this: in the RAF, the RN and the supporting arms, they're outnumbered by the masses and tend to blend in by 'acting down'. In the 'teeth arm' officer corps, they're in the majority, and anyone who wishes to blend in must 'act up' (although there is a danger of this being viewed as a heinous crime, particularly by wives).

Of late I've noticed that aspirational upper-class behaviour is on the increase among senior RAF officers. When, for example, did the sports jacket supplant the blazer as their smart-casual wear of choice in the Mess bar? Perhaps the permanent diet of jointery with a capital "A" is to blame...

[SASless]

Mr C.....no sense taking advantage of the unarmed as they say!:D:D

[Big Pistons Forever]

A great line I heard at a Navy garden party. The Formation Commander's wife made no bones about wearing her husbands two stars. She was talking to the wife of a Navy Captain who was retiring without making Flag. The Captain did not make flag because of his penchant for supporting his personnel, telling it like it was, not just they the brass hats wanted it to be, and by demonstrating outstanding skills as a mariner.

Adm wife: I feel soooooo bad for you. You never got to enjoy being the wife of a flag officer.

Capt wife : I have always been an Admirals wife, Roger just never caught up with me.

[SASless]

The US Army has undertaken an initiative to once and for all put an end to this problem.


Pentagon Proposes Policy Assigning Ranks To Military Spouses (http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/07/new-dod-policy-to-assign-rank-to-military-spouses/)

[Tankertrashnav]

Mrs TTN, a working class girl from Nottingham who had become an officer in the QARANC by virtue of her nursing qualifications, had spent two years in the army by the time I met her. In that time she had mainly socialised with other army officers, but after we met she naturally started to come to our mess (Kai Tak as it happens). She confessed to me that she was surprised (and somewhat relieved) to discover officers with regional accents, having only heard bog-standard Sandhurst up to that point!

It may be a bit different 45 years later, but I'm guessing not that much.

Still, I always like the different uniforms, and dont forget officers have to buy theirs, so the fashion show is not at the public expense.

[reynoldsno1]

Whenurhappy
Been on secondment at an airbase NW of Auckland by any chance? May be you've been spoiled by the slightly more egalitarian attitude of the Kiwi cuzzies ?

[Roadster280]

WUH - What you describe is the muck 'n bullets end of the Army. The majority however, are in Corps, and the RAF is closer to that in outlook. A-Level or degree education, probably less than 50% with family ties, highly likely to have gone to a state school.

The Cav, some Inf, some Arty, have historical reasons for the way they are today, but if it works, why change it? The young officers in a cavalry regiment will likely have private or family incomes, and their lives reflect that. If a minor public schoolboy, whose parents scrimped and saved to put him through that then were to join the regiment, he would be out of place. Unable to afford the things his peers are doing. Easy Street had it exactly right.

Guards officers regularly dine with the Royal Family to make up the numbers. I don't see the tubby Sqn Ldr in the BZZ Sky preview making the grade, to be honest.

It may be a bit "Woopert of the Wedgiment" in some regiments, but that doesn't mean all are like that. I've worked with some real turds of RAF officers, just as I have Army ones. I am sure we all have.

Just a point on the uniforms - they ARE mandated in the respective Corps and Regimental Dress Regulations, and generally it is the accoutrements that change - headdress, lanyards, stable belts, shoulder titles, colour of boots/shoes etc. Granted Jock & Irish regiments are completely different, but that's hardly a surprise. If one wanted to be unkind, one could question why the RAF wear stable belts at all with trousers that don't have belt loops deep enough.

I agree with you on the wives though. Good luck trying to change that, without making enemies!

[Melchett01]

Having joined the RAF but spent a lot of my time operating in the Land environment, I must confess to having a chuckle as I read this. I think the OP is right in some respects, but I think Easy Street has it spot on. It was also summarised in a very clever Orwellian tone in an edition of the The Officer Magazine's column 'Sustainer' a good while back: some Regiments are better than others, but all Regiments are better than Corps.

On this basis, I tend to break the Army down into 3 distinct groups: Firstly, the Corps - generally those roles that might be described as being or coming close to being a 'profession'. Generally well educated in a proper, useful subject and by and large competent at what they do and a good bunch to have a drink with. Then you have the Teeth Arms (Ordinary). By this I mean your standard county Infantry Regiment, the RTR, the Gunners and AAC. They are your salt of the earth types and all of whom joined up because they actually wanted to play a part in the mililtary and take what we do quite seriously - for them it is a proper career. And then finally, there are the Teeth Arms (C&S). By C&S I mean Ceremonial and Social, because other than marching up and down, throwing a rather splendid Mess dinner and having perfected the art of being condescending whilst maintaining a veneer of absolute perfect manners and civility, one does wonder what exactly they bring to the party other than filling up the Mess until it's time to inherit or get a proper job in daddy's firm.

As Easy Street suggests, the OP has probably come into a little too much contact with Teeth Arm (C&S) types rather than the proper Army types ;) I remember my time at Army HQ when my Lt Col asked what I found so funny as I was desperately trying not to laugh during the 1*'s pep talk; I nodded in the general direction of the other side of the room at a gentleman confidently striding through the floor plate with his quiff, tweed jacket, bright red trousers and brown brogues. A walking stereotype if I ever saw one and even my Lt Col - a Lynx driver and ex county Inf Regt type - let a little smirk out.

However, in general, I always found that being thoroughly good at your job tends to silence any sort of criticism that you don't own half of Berkshire or that you can only trace your family lineage back to some point on a leave plot when the local Bn was back in Barracks in 1943 rather than going back to 1066. And if all else fails, the knowledge that whilst an ability to successfully canter round in circles with a wooden mallet on a walking glue factory may get you entrance to a posh polo party, it's bugger all help when the balloon goes up and the Battle of Britain with horses rather than Spits wouldn't have been half as good a film as it is. If I had any advice based on my experience - take all with a pinch of salt. If it all seems as though it's getting too much and the Teeth Arms (C&S) are being a pain, just think of it as being a pantomime and it puts it all into perspective. I can almost guarantee the Corps and Teeth Arms (Ordinary) are probably thinking very similar thoughts to you.

Having said all this, I still need to be careful. My late grandfather was a CSM in the Paras, so the fact I joined the RAF has probably left him spinning in his grave!

[Roadster280]

Spot on, Melchett.

[Two's in]

What an excellent thread on "sweeping generalizations". Also it must have been quite a revelation that some Army Officers are complete knobs! Who knew? Thank goodness the RAF has such socially erudite individuals who never let themselves or the service down by their boorish behavior.

[cargosales]

My father having being in the army, I think that Melchett has rather nicely summarised the situation with regard to the brown jobs. Especially their love of fancy dress :ok:

But of course the RAF has/had? its own 'rank wearing wives' too ... who are only too willing to put people in their place. Or at least to try to....

Some years ago, before we met, my OH was married to 'shock horror for the rank-wearing wife' an airman! Which lead to an interesting conversation when he was posted to MPA ...

Condescending wife didn't bother to ask any details before launching into questioning how my OH was coping with things like shopping and managing the house with her husband away...

OH said that it was just fine but that she was a bit busy because of her full time job and doing her MBA of an evening and weekends at the same time too! And then enquiring politely whether said wife was doing anything similar..

Apparantly it was rather a short conversation after that....

CS

[parabellum]

but I do care when it costs money.

Thought I saw it mentioned above, can't find it now, Army Officers buy their own uniforms so the only money they are 'wasting' is their own. The variations in uniforms are down to history and traditions, when the RAF is three hundred years old they should have a few of their own!;)

Humour in uniform:


In the greatest days of the BritishEmpire, a new commanding officer was sent to a jungle outpost to relieve the retiring colonel.
After welcoming his replacement and showing the courtesies (gin and tonic, cucumber sandwiches) that protocol decrees, the retiring colonel said - "You must meet Captain Smithers, my right-handman, God, he's really the strength of this office. His talent is simply boundless."

Smithers was summoned and introduced to the new CO, who was surprised to meet a toothless, hairless, scabbed and pockmarked specimen of humanity, a particularly unattractive man less than three foot tall.

"Smithers, old man, tell your new CO about yourself."

"Well, sir, I graduated with honours from Sandhurst, joined the regimentand won the Military Cross and Bar after three expeditions behind enemy lines.

I've represented Great Britain in equestrian events and won a Silver Medal in the middleweight division of the Olympics. I have researched the history of ..."

Here the colonel interrupted, "Yes, yes, never mind that Smithers, the CO can find all that in your file. Tell him about the day you told the witchdoctor to get f#*ked."

[SASless]

From what I have seen of "former British Army" Officers.....I dare not think what they must have been like while actually "in" the Army. I am surprised the all didn't drown in a drizzle.

[diginagain]

From what I have seen of "former British Army" Officers.....I dare not think what they must have been like while actually "in" the Army. I am surprised the all didn't drown in a drizzle. We of the lower orders would follow them anywhere. Mainly out of curiosity as to what they'd get up to next.

[MG]

Not all of the uniforms are at private expense. Some cap badges insist on wearing PCS; ok, it's the army, it's expected. But, it costs more to maintain than barrack dress. But few want to wear barrack dress, yet it is procured for them. Then there are those who do wear barrack dress, but wear the old lightweight trousers, which also have to be kept in stock. Then there are the various 'best uniforms'. All of this affects other ranks, as well as officers, so it does cost extra; even if it is not on personal issue, stocks still have to be maintained. We are in an era of not having money to burn and I know that there will be those who say that it costs nothing when compared with a Typhoon/ Type 45, etc, but that misses the point.

[Whenurhappy]

Reynolds No 1 - Yes, I've spent time at NZWP, albeit a few years ago.

I did foreign staff college with two cavalry officers - they were great laughs and by far more interesting that your usual RAF officers, myself included. But, there is a 'mass effect' when (predominantly) teeth arm personnel get together and where they are being assessed, such as at my present location. It is as if their otherwise amusing characteristics are specially heightened to make themselves more visible. Every other driveway has a horse-box, almost as some sort of social statement (cue earlier comments on late-model cars).

My wife is more than capable of looking after herself (she is privately educated, has a good degree and a good horsewoman to boot, what what! *) but she is aghast at the outwardly snobbishness amongst many of the wives she meets at social events and on the school run. Luckily these women are largely self selecting - if we, as a couple, have no impact on their husband's stellar career, we are quietly distanced. There are also the subtle questions asking which street our quarter is on - the answer settling (because of local Joint (read Army) housing policy) presuposes who is DS and a rising star, and who is not. When I reveal my next posting (sorry, assignment) there is some geneuine interest.

My original question was whether RAF spouses (in particular) are as competititve - recently speaking to someone from High Wycombe, apparently they are!

* But chooses not to outwardly display these legacies!

[Tourist]

I have to disagree with many on here who find the Army to be a bit funny/rude.


When I was sent to Middle Wallop to learn to fly something new I was amazed by the friendliness and manners of all the Army officers.


Far far better than I would have been treated by the RAF or even the RN. I was somewhat embarrassed to think how poorly we would have treated a new Army officer in the Wardroom in comparison.

[Union Jack]

The US Army has undertaken an initiative to once and for all put an end to this problem.

Pentagon Proposes Policy Assigning Ranks To Military Spouses (http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/07/new-dod-policy-to-assign-rank-to-military-spouses/)

Surely our German friends beat them to it, on this front at least, a long time ago - and in a much more serious vein.

Jack

[Lingo Dan]

I have to agree with Tourist - I was treated very well as an exchange pilot with the army back in the 70s, and am still in touch with several friends made during that tour.

My final tour in the RAF was at a Divisional HQ. There I saw a degree of competitiveness - and back-stabbing - never encountered on an RAF sqn of the time. (not sure how it is now, though!) And the "thrusters" and "back-stabbers" that I have in mind weren't necessarily from "smart" regiments either.

However, this pales into insignificance when compared with the degree of competitiveness and back-stabbing to be found in the "real" world. Maybe being on exchange to the army wasn't so bad after all.

[lasernigel]

On this basis, I tend to break the Army down into 3 distinct groups: Firstly, the Corps - generally those roles that might be described as being or coming close to being a 'profession'. Generally well educated in a proper, useful subject and by and large competent at what they do and a good bunch to have a drink with. Then you have the Teeth Arms (Ordinary). By this I mean your standard county Infantry Regiment, the RTR, the Gunners and AAC. They are your salt of the earth types and all of whom joined up because they actually wanted to play a part in the mililtary and take what we do quite seriously - for them it is a proper career. And then finally, there are the Teeth Arms (C&S). By C&S I mean Ceremonial and Social, because other than marching up and down, throwing a rather splendid Mess dinner and having perfected the art of being condescending whilst maintaining a veneer of absolute perfect manners and civility, one does wonder what exactly they bring to the party other than filling up the Mess until it's time to inherit or get a proper job in daddy's firm.

Gentlemen. I would probably take a whole page up copying some of the best crap I have ever read.
Yes I am ex Army and proud of it. I was the misfit of the family, not an Air Commodore like my Great Uncle, ( who btw made it up through the ranks), but a lowly Sergeant.
I was a Control Equipment technician by trade. But as are all Army no matter what rank or background they come from, are soldiers before tradesmen. Or for that matter soldiers before ceremonial duties. Most Guardsmen and cavalrymen have served on the front line, whether that was in the Iraq war or Afghanistan. I myself did a 2 year tour of NI then two 4 month ones. This wasn't hiding in some hanger in an airfield in deepest Cambridgeshire or Lincolnshire, but out on the streets.
Compare that with the guys from RAF Stafford who were posted to St.Angelo for 30 days. Stayed in their billet, and wore flak jackets to refuel the odd helicopter in the inner compound. The REME workshop was in the outer compound where we didn't bother with flak jackets. 30 days of doing bugger all and the same GSM.
So please gentlemen get your facts and figures straight before casting the first stone.

[Roadster280]

lasernigel - I'm going to stick up for the crabs here, despite being an ex-Army Sgt tech like yourself.

The OP was specifically referring to back-stabbing Army officers climbing the greasy pole (or not). Not the "guys on the ground".

Whether TSW had a "cushy number" in comparison to the REME blokes is not what the thread is about.

[Pontius Navigator]

Guards officers regularly dine with the Royal Family to make up the numbers. I don't see the tubby Sqn Ldr in the BZZ Sky preview making the grade, to be honest.

Some even marry them. RAF officers, otoh, have married commoners.

[Roadster280]

PN - You must be referring to Colonel Wales IG :ok:

[Haraka]

The greatest privilege of my life up to 1975 was working out on the streets and lanes supporting the Army in N.I., particularly with the "Felix" operatives.


As a Crab doing " silly purple things" as SPIO in RIC ( NI) I had an education of a brother service that was second to none ,including their taking casualties and going straight back in as a matter of course, without any histrionics.......
But that's just my humble opinion of course .
(Mind you we had some mind blinding PU's afterwards)
I do have to add that, after nearly a year in province ( having being recalled into theatre immediately post my first roulement ) I was informed by Barnwood that this time didn't really count as I was :
" Merely on detachment :) "

[SOSL]

OP - Army having the top hand? Forget it, that's your problem.

Wives competing on husband's rank? That's been going on for millennia (I kind of think).

Royal Navy/Army/ Royal Air Force - banter is compulsory.

We are all in the same business - the defence of freedom.

How does military aviation help that aim?

Rgds SOS

[Whenurhappy]

I do not doubt the professionalism of the army, my OP was concerning the naked and brutal ambition amongst a select bunch of Majs/Lt Col at Shrivenham - and of their wives. I have never encountered it to this extent before, and although I've not lived on an RAF station for over a decade, I certainly don't recall it as competitive (or down right bitchy) - and nor has my wife. And don't get me started on the faux pretentions. Yes, there are knobs in each of the Services and we have all encountered them throughout careers but I have never met such a concentration of them as here!

I just wonder how these archaic attitutes that I - and clearly, others, have recently experienced - are beneficial tothe rollout of Army 2020?

[barnstormer1968]

Lasernigel

I think that guards officers were being critiqued, and not the OR's. Either way it was not how the guards really work, and as you say guards are infantry and most are very proud of being 'elite infantry'.
You will be aware that some guards officers are indeed happier in barracks rather than in the field. Back in '82 there was general disbelief that the guards officers allowed there men to stay on board ship rather than get to safety on the ground of the Falklands, with sad but predictable results.

As for the army having various shades of uniform. While this does cost money by having differing belts, badges and lanyards etc, this sense of tradition and family tie is what encourages success and comradeship under very difficult conditions.

The RAF do not have this history and family IMHO, but then most RAF personnel probably don't need it in their normal work place.

Family, history, honour and tradition are the kind of emotions that prompt marines to strap into an apache to go into a hot firefight to try to save a comrade.

[Just This Once...]

Isn't the Marine analogy where it all falls down? The RM seem normal when compared to the kind of regiments we are talking about and yet still do the job (and probably a little bit more too…).

The RAF, RN, RM and a good part of the Army are all what I would describe as 'normal'. The discussion is regarding the bit of the Army that lives in its own little universe.

[Mahogany_Bomber]

Not only Royal Marines hanging off an Apache that day - Capt Dave Rigg MC RE (good work for a staff officer!)

[500N]

But the "old boy system" kicked in when it came to tea and medals ;)

[Easy Street]

I have to disagree with many on here who find the Army to be a bit funny/rude.

When I was sent to Middle Wallop to learn to fly something new I was amazed by the friendliness and manners of all the Army officers.

Far far better than I would have been treated by the RAF or even the RN. I was somewhat embarrassed to think how poorly we would have treated a new Army officer in the Wardroom in comparison.

Personally, I didn't accuse the Army of being rude - I just observed that a majority of the officers of certain regiments hail from the upper and upper-middle classes, which explained some of the traits observed by the OP. Other traits of those classes include extremely refined manners. At Wallop, chances are, they were simply nice blokes as per most of the AAC!

Another poster (lasrnigel I think) said that he hadn't seen Army officers acting in the manner described. I tend to think that the competitiveness and career ambition described wouldn't tend to be evident from the viewpoint of non-commissioned personnel within a regiment - it is something that becomes more apparent across a large cluster of peer-grouped officers, such as that found at Shrivenham. You don't tend to see clusters of senior Majs and young Lt Cols comparing notes about their career prospects while they are actually in a command position because they are not surrounded by their peers.

Finally, as regards the naked ambition... it's not seen as particularly rude or offensive to be ambitious in well-to-do circles. Indeed, the opposite - it is seen as being open and honest with others about your personal intentions. Better that, than acting as 'one of the lads' whilst quietly pushing yourself ahead of your chums. Unfortunately, to those unfamiliar with these norms, it can just seem like overwhelming arrogance. Which it isn't (or, at least, it isn't intended as such) - it's just a product of a different upbringing from that which the rest of us experienced. Not wrong, just different.

[Flugplatz]

Some of those wives have ended up victims of their own husband's competitive tendencies however.... when the other half of the 'team' decided that she was no longer pulling her weight compared to younger, sexier models. This seemed to be especially true in the nineties when women were allowed to join regular regiments and corps, not just the WRACs. More than a few Lt Cols and Majors suddenly ditched the wife in favour of a young 2nd Lt or Captain - same thing on tours of Bosnia, with young exotic wives brought back to replace 'tired, older models' stuck on the patch.

I remember my OC saying that on his Staff course people were so competitive that it was almost de rigour to get ready to dump wives who were "holding back this year's opportunity to make the Pink List" (list of promotions)

[500N]

So much for "character" then ;)

[Easy Street]

So much for "character" then ;)Fidelity and lifelong monogamy have never been defining characteristics of the elite :hmm:

http://static.bbc.co.uk/history/img/ic/640/images/resources/people/henry_viii.jpg
http://www.meaus.com/95-charles-camilla-1.JPEG

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[500N]

Is it only the US where Officers can be sacked for Adultery ?

[parabellum]

May have changed now but at one time, in the UK Army, adultery was a sacking offence, (because there had been too much of it!).

[Wander00]

I recall a CAS in the past proclaiming that "no divorced officer will reach air rank", and IMHO the RAF was denied the best CAS it never had (and could have done with at the time), Freeman, because he had been divorced and the King would not accept him as CAS

[airborne_artist]

Pere Artist was offered the post of Head of Military Mission in Canberra. On telling Mere Artist she said "You'll be going alone, as I'm divorcing you" (no third party involved, ended up fairly amicably resolved).

The offer was withdrawn. This was in 1982.

[Wander00]

Twice in my career I was the "witness" when a JO was warned as to his (mis)conduct by in one case an OC Admin and in the other by a Station Commander, each of whom subsequently trod the same path, although only one of them in the Service, but the other in an establishment where it "mattered".

[MPN11]

I was once vetoed for an independent Unit command, as my OH was a serving senior officer. Apparently her resultant inability to organise flower arranging and the Wives' Club on a Unit of c. 150 personnel was a deal-breaker.

The irony was that there wasn't another officer in the Branch better qualified by experience to do the job ... I'd previously served there as a fg off, flt lt and sqn ldr for a total of 7 years. Ho-hum - off to another Whitehall job, then, for which I was completely unqualified in terms of background experience and, indeed, the Job Spec :ooh:

[Whenurhappy]

Slight drift from (my) thread but a colleague is soon off to a diplomatic appointment but for career reasons, his spouse wll stay in Blighty. The FCO have no problem with this but his parent service (not RAF) aren't particularly happy about this at all. Again, I thought that these attitudes were long gone. How wrong I appear to be.

[500N]

AA

"The offer was withdrawn. This was in 1982."

Lucky you ;)

Canberra, god what a place to have a job.

[Haraka]

Absolutely 500N! Standing shivering in the dark in the morning on Huntingdon Station five days a week in the winter, going down to MoD in the p*ssing rain ( often in an unheated cattle train) made me realise how truly lucky I was.

[500N]

Haraka

It's isn't so much the weather. The UK winters are colder and wetter (Nothing like going to school in freezing slushy snow :O, all good training IMHO :ok:) than Canberra even though Canberra gets damn cold in Winter and damn hot in summer.

It's the fact you are stuck in a city with a whole load of Left leaning Gov't Greeny do gooders which not much to do around there. Just the type of people AA would get on with ;)

Though it has improved and travel is now a bit easier !!!

[Hydromet]

Though it has improved and travel is now a bit easier !!!
Quite true. They've improved the roads, so there are no longer traffic jams out of the city on Friday afternoons.:E

[500N]

Yes, very much so, single lane road out was a nightmare and even then
when you hit the "highway" that wasn't much better !

Some good women in Canberra ;)

[parabellum]

I'll leave the good ones for you 500N, now, what about the bad ones?:E

[kintyred]

Back to the thread.....

I can well believe that Army Officers are competitive. I'd hope that it's part of the character make up required of any military officer. In my experience with the Junior Service our officers were no less competitive but were perhaps less up front about it.
I think that the problem lies in where that competitive energy is focussed. Self advancement for its own sake is to be deplored but unfortunately the promotion system means that those who wish to move up the organisation have little choice but to get themselves noticed and not necessarily for the right things.
It is probably true of any organisation that those who are successful in being promoted achieve that partly by making themselves more like those whom they aspire to replace. Given the history of the army, it should come as no surprise to find the characteristics W observed among the Army officer corps.
Having never sought promotion I was able to devote my energies to doing my job and it came as a surprise to me when my first RO wrote that I lacked ambition. When I questioned him about this he told me that I would never be promoted unless I started to focus on "developing my career". I was quite taken aback as I'd never thought of myself as lacking ambition; but reaching the rank of Sqn Ldr/Gp Capt/AVM didn't strike me as achieving anything worthwhile....but his comment did give an indication of the way the senior officer corps thinks. Promotion was the only thing that mattered...even for the raf!
(Don't worry dear reader, I've realised most of my ambitions and was very proud of serving 28 years as a flight lieutenant)