Identification of this Pilot - is it HRH Duke of York or not? [Archive]

AndySmith

15th Nov 2013, 09:59

Good morning.

This is my first post after a long period of lurking on the forum. I hope you will be gentle with me? :) I am currently researching several Falklands related topics for some articles that I am in the process of writing, and I have come across some photos, although not directly related to my current research, I am hoping that some of the rotary members of the FAA of the era might be able to answer.

The photo below were purportedly taken on the 15th June, when members of the Scots Guards were being ferried off of Mt Tumbledown back to MV St Edmund. a couple of the photos appears to show HRH Prince Andrew.

The reason for my question is that the helicopter in question is clearly (at least to me) a Sea King HAS 2 - you can just see the shape of the radome behind the rotors, and therefore most likely to be one of the machines that had the sonar equipment removed and hastily formed into 825 NAS - but the likeness the the prince is uncanny.

http://imageshack.com/a/img545/916/3721.png

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/6053/bwbr.jpg

and the last image, although a different airframe, shows clearly it was a HAS2.
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6199/nz7j.jpg

So, if the Prince was part of 820 NAS and based on Invincible, how can he turn up in a 825 NAS machine that were based on land at this point - or is this a case of mistaken identity - or were some crews of 820 lent to help out with 825, due to fatigue with the overworked Junglie-Pinger crews ?

Thanks in advance

A

Engines

15th Nov 2013, 15:45

Andy,

Perhaps I can help here. I was an AEO with 820 Sqn from 81 to 83, and served with HRH almost all of that time. I went down to the Falklands, and was part of a two aircraft detachment that went ashore into San Carlos from just before the surrender until just afterwards. HRH was part of that detachment, which was commanded by our Senior Pilot, Lt Cdr Keith Dudley.

Yes, that is 'H' - and he's in an SK2. I assume it's an 825 Sqn cab, but can't confirm that. It's certainly not an 820 machine.

I believe that some of our crews did fly with 825 while we were ashore at San Carlos, and 'H' would certainly have taken his turn.

Hope this helps

Engines

sbdorset

15th Nov 2013, 16:33

Andy,

I was one of the pilots on 825. HRH did not fly with us as I recall and unfortunately I can't identify whether 91 was one of ours or not. It certainly was originally a 706NAS aircraft but again I vaguely recall one or two of our training aircraft being sent to Portsmouth to embark on one of the carriers as extra aircraft.

If you had the a/c registration number I may be able to refer to my logbook.

It does look like HRH but in the wrong aircraft unless 820 NAS had a utility from our number as explained above.

Seaking93

15th Nov 2013, 18:20

First look at the book 'Falklands the Air War' does not show a HAS2 going south with the code 91, is it 100% certain that the time/location given is correct?
Will keep looking for the aircraft ID

Seaking93

15th Nov 2013, 20:12

If the information about the image time/location is wrong and the photo was taken just after the Falklands in late 1982 then the airframe could either be XV663 or XV666

Ruffles

15th Nov 2013, 20:26

I don't think 820 crews flew 825 aircraft at any stage. Seaking93 is probably right with his suggestion that the Jun 15th date is not correct.

But who is that in the left hand seat? In the first picture it looks very like Lt Cdr John Skinner ( SP 825). Not so sure when I look at the second picture!

AndySmith

15th Nov 2013, 22:24

Edited so that the post appears as the last reply. I was waiting to get the post moderated.

clicker

15th Nov 2013, 22:25

I have an book "Falklands The Air War" in my collection.

It includes details on types operated by various units on both sides including registrations with codes and their deployments/fates etc.

I cannot find any HAS2 or 2A's listed with the code 91.

The only 90's coded ones listed are XV677 (CU/595) and XV648 (CU/597). They are not listed as having any code changes during the deployment.

clicker

15th Nov 2013, 22:51

Done a bit more searching

There is a record of XV663 wearing the code CU/591 while on HMS Hermes in Nov 1982.

However during the Falklands conflict she is recorded as wearing CU/581 thoughout.

This would suggest to me to backup what Seaking93 has suggested in that this photo is slightly than thought.

AndySmith

15th Nov 2013, 23:18

If you had the a/c registration number I may be able to refer to my logbook.

Sorry, the photo is all I have, and thanks to the low vis scheme, none of the registrations are visible, unfortunately.

sbdorset

15th Nov 2013, 23:49

John Skinner was my thought on the left hand seat - only three of us had beards and it is not Ted B or John H! They are wearing camo flying clothing i.e. no goon suit so definitely based ashore. It was not XV663 - I flew that aircraft regularly and it was not 91. The more I look at it the more I don't think it is HRH.

Fly3

15th Nov 2013, 23:57

I also think the left seat guy is John Skinner. We were on the same HSP course.

Ruffles

16th Nov 2013, 04:38

We haven't got this one cracked yet!

Aircraft - no positive id but it certainly looks like an 825 cab. Clicker's info that 91 was attached to Hermes in Nov 92 could be true but these pictures are typical Falklands shots and Hermes returned home in Jul 82 and didn't go south again.

Crew - I am also not convinced that we are looking at H. 825's P2s came from the 706 AFT course that had just finished, supplemented by 2 from 819. If I recall correctly the following were S/Lts:

Chris Greaves, Brian Evans, Dave Wolstenhome, Paul Lyall - from 706.

Pete Eldridge and Martin Rayner - from 819.

If this is an 825 crew, and there is support for John Skinner in the LHS, I would go for Pete Eldridge.

thowman

16th Nov 2013, 07:44

The third photo is also of cab 91, you can just make out the 1 on the nose, so would appear to show the HAS2 in junglie mode with the strop underneath it.

An interesting exercise for the grey matter

Tankertrashnav

16th Nov 2013, 08:35

Why don't you write to HRH and ask him? I'm sure he'd reply.

(If you can catch him in the country, that is!)

sbdorset

16th Nov 2013, 09:22

I agree with that pairing. They were crewed together as I recall. The list is not quite accurate - my P2 for a lot of the time was Geoff Boyce.

AndySmith

16th Nov 2013, 12:45

Sorry, my first reply had to wait to be moderated. Here is what I posted earlier....

Hi

I was passed these by one of my Argentinian contacts. They are from a series of photos taken aboard MV St Edmund on or around the 15th June, as they embarked Scots Guards from Mt Tumbledown. The date might be wrong, but that is as much as I know. Here are the rest of the photos. Now, whether or not they are all taken on the same day, I don't know, but they give the context. I have asked my contact where he got them from, and as soon as I know, I will pass it on.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2000/u33a.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img40/1096/2huo.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img854/5503/cgk0.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img802/4175/3nq3.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img62/2937/cytu.jpg

And this photo gives the context, with St Edmund on the lifeboat, which I doubt was down south much longer than the end of the conflict....
http://imageshack.com/a/img802/8620/t7wf.jpg

And I also found this photo on the net this morning while searching for similar photos, and it appears to show the same left-seater.

http://imageshack.com/a/img823/9426/fi4h.jpg

Back to you guys - a nice little conundrum to solve!

Seaking93

16th Nov 2013, 12:46

For those interested the Sea Kings of 825NAS in the Falklands were as follows,

XZ580/272
XV700/264
XV696/268
XV663/581
XV659/584
XV654/585
XV714/586
XV677/595
XV648/597
XV656/703

There is no record of any airframe being re-coded to 91, also no other Sea King in the Task Force is recorded as being coded 91, I am more convinced that the image shows either XV663 or XV666 that are both recorded as being coded 91 at different times in the period from June 1982 to December 1982.

AndySmith

16th Nov 2013, 14:53

Hi

All very interesting. As I am new, my replies have to be moderated, and so they appear before the latest reply. Please have a look at the other photos I linked form the same series of photos on st Edmund.

Also there is the photo taken of HRH the day he was in Port Stanley with a bearded fellow pilot. This was the day he was interviewed by the tv where he talked about phoning home to mum.

http://imageshack.com/a/img823/9426/fi4h.jpg

Is this the same guy in the left hand seat in the cab. HRH is also in cammos.

As far as the codes go, could the documents be wrong, as I am pretty sure that this is from the 15th June.

Thanks for all your help

Andy

clicker

16th Nov 2013, 15:24

Don't know if this will help but this is what the book states for MV St Edmund.

Requisitioned Harwich 12/5/82 and sailed to Portsmouth.
Sailed for South Atlantic 19/5/82 arriving in TRALA early June.
Joined the CVGB 15/6/82 and proceeded to Port William 16/6/82.
Departed Port Stanley 5/7/82 with 500 senior POW's 5/7/82 and arrived Puerto Madryn 14/7/82.
Returned to Port Stanley and used as an accommodation ship.
Replaced Norland as Ascension shuttle service 11/82. Sailed from Port Stanley 2/83 arriving Solent 25/2/83.
She was later sold to the MoD and used for a shuttle service Falklands-Ascension late 1984 as the MV Keren.

aviate1138

16th Nov 2013, 15:30

Does this help?

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/ScreenShot2013-11-16at1611_zpsa21d7c86.jpg (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/aviate1138/media/ScreenShot2013-11-16at1611_zpsa21d7c86.jpg.html)

Ruffles

16th Nov 2013, 20:18

Andy

Whether or not it is Prince Andrew in the SK pictures, we can safely say the SK pictures and the picture of Prince Andrew and his bearded companion in Stanley are not linked. In the SK pictures, the pilot is wearing camouflage clothing. Prince Andrew in Stanley is wearing a camouflage jacket but it is on top of a goon suit (survival suit).

I'm also doubtful that the Stanley companion is the pilot in the LHS of the Seaking. Yes he is bearded but lots were at that time. ASW Seakings had a crew of 4, so every possibility that he was an Observer or an Aircrewman. I think he's the Observer and I have a name in mind but let's see what any ex 820 crews have to say on the matter.

So back to your initial question - is it Prince Andrew in the Seaking? You'd better send a polite enquiry to Buckingham Palace!

Flypro

17th Nov 2013, 17:18

Sorry Ruffles but at that time the 820 SeaKings were always crewed by 2 pilots, especially one with HRH in the front RH seat.

I know this as a fact. I was there (and bearded!!)

Ruffles

17th Nov 2013, 18:33

Flypro - very aware that it was 2 pilots. I'm just suggesting that the bearded person accompanying Prince Andrew in Stanley could be an Observer or Aircrewman. I'm not suggesting that the person in the LHS of the Seaking pictures is an Observer or Aircrewman i.e. they are not the same person in my opinion!

Flypro

17th Nov 2013, 18:38

My apologies.

The person in the Stanley photo is HRH's P1 at that time.

He is not the LHS pilot in the airborne photos.

barnstormer1968

17th Nov 2013, 20:17

Fly pro

Did the chap next to HRH later write a book or two?

Seaking93

17th Nov 2013, 21:39

Does anyone know if 820NAS crews did any BITS flying using 706NAS airframes post war while their HAS5's were being maintained?

This may explain the photo's

ALTAM

18th Nov 2013, 09:31

The other person in the Stanley photo was an Observer Ian M. He was one of my Observer instructors on 750 SQN in 1981

AndySmith

18th Nov 2013, 09:33

Thanks for all the replies. Although it may or may not be HRH, and I believe the pilot has been identified as part of 825 (?), it is still an interesting activity to try and date the photo given the uncertainty of the airframe.

I have another question to ask HRH, about which exocet attack his comments were made about "laying on the floor with missiles flying around and doing a Rubik cube", so maybe I can kill two birds with one stone. The missile reference is continually used by the "other side" as a confirmation of the attack of the 30th, when I think it's more likely to be from the 25th when Invincible fired 6 sea darts what is believed to be a chaff cloud.

Thanks once again. Absolutely fascinating.

Andy

Flypro

18th Nov 2013, 13:56

Barnstormer,

Altam is correct regarding the Stanley photo.

Seaking 93,

820 airframes were young and very well maintained so to the best of my knowledge, 706 were not called on to provide airframes at any time.

Seaking93

18th Nov 2013, 15:43

Flypro - Did some more digging around today and you are certainly correct about 706 not providing any airframes, however still not able to date the photo.

Engines

18th Nov 2013, 15:49

Flypro,

Spot on there, Sir. 820 had an exceptionally good AEO who made damn sure that all his aircraft were kept in optimum condition and delivered maximum availability. Backed up by an excellent CO.

Best Regards as ever to those who have actually done the job,

Engines

sbdorset

18th Nov 2013, 16:24

SeaKing93 - the 825 NAS aircraft were predominantly 706 aircraft. It's just unfortunate that my logbook is registration numbers only not side numbers otherwise we could close this once and for all. I have a phot of the 8 a/c on deck on Causeway but can't see the side numbers so no help.

Ruffles

18th Nov 2013, 16:31

H's bearded companion in Stanley - Ian Mac. I agree.

Marcantilan

18th Nov 2013, 17:18

I have another question to ask HRH, about which exocet attack his comments were made about "laying on the floor with missiles flying around and doing a Rubik cube", so maybe I can kill two birds with one stone. The missile reference is continually used by the "other side" as a confirmation of the attack of the 30th, when I think it's more likely to be from the 25th when Invincible fired 6 sea darts what is believed to be a chaff cloud.

Clearly, he was talking about the May 30 engagement. He was flying on the 25th...

In any case, the attack really took place. If the Exocet missed Invincible by 4 feet or 40 miles, is another thing.

AndySmith

18th Nov 2013, 18:13

Clearly, he was talking about the May 30 engagement. He was flying on the 25th...

In any case, the attack really took place. If the Exocet missed Invincible by 4 feet or 40 miles, is another thing.

That is another kettle of fish for another time. :)

Seaking93

18th Nov 2013, 19:52

This has turned into a very interesting thread which hopefully will be resolved at some point, I guess the only person that can shed some light onto the question will be the man himself, if it is him, what was he doing flying a HAS2 and when was it.
The known facts are that its a HAS2, it has the code 91 on the nose, the code is painted black so the photo was taken after March 1982, there is no record of a Sea King going south with the code 91, after post Falklands leave the squadron re-embarked and went west to the US, so why was HRH at the controls of a HAS2 and when?

Interesting indeed

ALTAM

18th Nov 2013, 20:22

My guess is that it is a 706 SQN OFT Flight cab embarked in either ENGADINE or HERMES either late 1982 or early 1983. After this, 706 OFT Flight resumed operating SK Mk5. I concur that the LHS pilot was John Skinner. In late 1982, only 706, 824 and 819 SQNs were operating Sea King Mk2.

I dont think that the photo was during the Falklands War as it was not a 825 A/c.

The other SQN in the War operating the Mk 2 was my flight 824 C Flight in FORT GRANGE and 824 A Flight in OLMEDA (I think). The side numbers of 824 cabs were 350 - 355. There were a number of spare Mk 2 aircraft available either late in the War or early after it as one of our Mk 2 aircraft that ditched in late June after an engine failure was replaced almost immediately. I dont think that any other unit used any of the spares before they went back to the UK.

AndySmith

18th Nov 2013, 20:45

This has turned into a very interesting thread which hopefully will be resolved at some point, I guess the only person that can shed some light onto the question will be the man himself, if it is him, what was he doing flying a HAS2 and when was it.

But one of the aircrew on this thread has already said that they don't think it was HRH in the LH seat. I guess does anyone know if John Skinner is around to shed some light on this?