Drones shooting bushfires

[tartare]

Amazing footage here:
Lithgow on Fire - YouTube
...and now CASA are debating charging the drone company according to some news reports:
Australian authorities warn about flying drones near wildfires ? drone journalism (http://www.dronejournalism.org/news/2013/10/australian-authorities-warn-about-flying-drones-near-wildfires)
What say you fellow ppruners?
Idiotic behaviour on behalf of RPV pilots... or are CASA being bureaucratic numpties?

[Gulfstreamaviator]

much damage assessment can be carried out, and looking at the bridge that's a good perspective to check out initial damage.

Keep well away from rescue / fire fighters, and retardant drops, and get the footage.
In the barn was impressive flying, I just saw the cable crossing the barn....

Glf

[404 Titan]

There is a place and time for drones. Crossing a police line and going into the burnt out shed without permission could destroy evidence and filming the fire could potentially put fire bomber aircraft and their crew at risk. While the footage is impressive those responsible are idiots. CASA clearly needs to regulate this fast developing segment of the industry and where necessary prosecute those endangering others.

[Engineer_aus]

FYI CASA is after this chap who filmed this.

[404 Titan]

I hope they find him. This is the clearest example of a drone being used in an irresponsible manner potentially endangering people’s lives.

[no_one]

Look at 3:50 in the video. You can see the operator standing next to the firefighters.

Is there any chances he is actually a fire fighter using it to inspect the damage?

[The Green Goblin]

You know, that got me thinking..... (Rare I know)

It might be a good way to go looking for that 210 out near Newcastle.

[404 Titan]

If you look the operator can be seen in a number of shots. He even appears to be wearing the same clothes. If he was working for the fire fighters it would be public knowledge by now. What he really is, is a classic rubber necker with a high tech toy.

[8888]

404, you're a classic ignorant troglodyte. What I saw appeared nicely flown, of interest to anyone remotely related to either aviation or the fires in question and hardly a threat to man or machine.

[nitpicker330]

It made the papers and ninemsn two or three weeks ago under the headline "Firefighters use drones....."

The headline heavily inferred the RFS were trialling their use.

After I read the story and watched the video link I learned it was not official.

No real harm done, nice footage.

[nitpicker330]

I couldn't find the story I mention above on ninemsn BUT I did find another story regarding the drone flying over the Sydney State Mine Fires. The RFS and CASA were not impressed by the footage.

See story here:--

Drones could block firefighters, RFS warns (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/10/26/07/11/bushfire-burnout-warning-as-crisis-eases)

[Oracle1]

The video is a work of art, a record for posterity. The day will come when the drones are an integral part of fire spotting tactics and management. As usual the technology has left CASA far behind

[nitpicker330]

Maybe but try telling that to a Helicopter Pilot that may come face to face with a unknown Drone lurking about a Fire. :=

These things need to be coordinated properly.:ok:

[404 Titan]

8888

You know, RC aircraft were my introduction to flying as a kid and I occasionally still fly them when I’m down in Australia. There is though a golden rule when flying them. You never, under any circumstances fly them over people and you never fly them where there may be a danger in a collision with a real aircraft. This guy broke both those rules.

By the way anyone can appear to fly one of these gyroscopically stabilised things nicely especially with a GoPro camera with image stabilisation.

[Oracle1]

give it time and the drone will be dropping the water

[tartare]

Oracle - I think you're dead right!
Interested by all your replies.
I can see both sides of the issue.
On one hand, RPVs like this present a great danger operating in proximity to Rotary or Fixed wing aircraft. The inherently limited field of view to the RPV pilot means he/she cannot see and avoid full sized aircraft outside of the narrow cone of vision of the camera. Also - a drone would be almost impossible for a FW/RW pilot to see until it collided with their chopper/plane - with predictably disastrous results. I wonder if it should be mandated that they have a bright white flashing strobe on them when they are operating near full sized aircraft?
Having said that, Cividrone seems to have been flying between 50 and 100 feet AGL, and his flight envelope didn't appear to be within that of a firefighting chopper - although I stand to be corrected by any rotary wing pilots reading this. I think he was probably more in danger of accidentally copping a tonne or two of water from above and being washed out of the sky!!
The reason I find this interesting is that for my sins, I have to deal with journos ocassionally. I was at a seminar yesterday where they were talking in detail about this footage, and were very excited by it. The potential of UAVs for cash strapped newsgathering operations and documentary makers is enormous, and they were clearly very interested.
Why pay $1800 an hour for a Squirrel when you can buy and fly your own machine for $10,000 and get footage that provides angles and perspectives a gyro stabilised mount or steerable camera turret never could?
CASA are going to have to wake up fast.
These things are cheap, highly capable and are coming our way big time.

[waren9]

i dont think having my shed burnt down gives anyone my permission for them to fly their camera through it.

[VH-XXX]

If CASA get their way shortly, you will need some form of AOC to be able to operate these machines. As to what level of AOC will be required is being drafted at present.

[tartare]

VH-XXX - do you know if CASA will also mandate any kind of anti-collision strobe being fitted to them?
Those LEDs that cyclists use are very effective, highly visible and lightweight with low power draw.
I wonder if that could address two problems - make them much more visible to pilots of full sized aircraft, and a little easier to see by those on the ground who might not be aware they are being filmed.
This is the type of machine (http://www.quadh2o.com/quadh2o/) that appears to have been used in the bushfires.

[Andy_RR]

I'd be interested in the legal angle that CASA are thinking of using against this guy.

FWIW, the FAA is launching a similar attack on the infamous Mr Raphael Pirker alleging reckless and careless operation of an aircraft. That's a fight that'll be entertaining to witness...

I think the risk of drones at this scale against manned fixed and rotary wing aircraft in the vicinity represents a level several orders of magnitude less than the risks pilots are already facing from natural forces, wildlife, their own misjudgments and mechanical failure.

[500N]

" Those LEDs that cyclists use are very effective, highly visible and lightweight with low power draw."

If you are talking those 3 flashing light LED's that substitute for lights,
I disagree. Most seem to be so low intensity and need a bit of beef to them.

Doesn't take much to increase the light output by using a better LED globe.

[oicur12.again]

I am an RC hobbyist and fly quad copters similar to the one used in the video. Mine has an all up weight with camera of about 1KG and could produce similar footage (or better with an ND filter).

I never fly it near airports or other full scale flying machines and never will however I WOULD fly it in the manner in the video. Failure resulting in loss of control is VERY rare and I have not yet heard of someone being injured by an out of control quad.

We risk ourselves everyday, from driving in cars at speed with one hand on the cell phone to flying clapped out 40 year old GA piston singles over the suburbs and yet there is an uproar when a small plastic quad arrives on the scene!!!!

[waren9]

nah, there are some white ones they use as headlights. too bright and highly focused. brighter than a car headlight and are blinding if not pointed down a bit. some flash and are highly distracting. :mad:

[VH-XXX]

A crop-duster banging along at 80 knots or whatever is not going to see even an aircraft grade strobe on a half metre by half metre UAV floating in front of him.

Hopefully if they only weigh a kilo is will simply hit the prop and cause little damage, but it could be far worse.

There's a time and a place for UAV's and that doesn't include entering a police crime scene at 3 ft when not authorised.

[Flying Binghi]

via oicur12.again:
...flying clapped out 40 year old GA piston singles ...

oicur12.again, if you are aware of a "clapped out" aircraft being flown i suggest you contact the relevant authorities. Just because something is old does not mean it is 'clapped out'.

My 'old' aircraft are maintained just the same as new aircraft. I think the saying about the farmers axe best describes... "Its a good old axe, only three new handles and two new heads in all the years i've owned it"..:)










.

[Flying Binghi]

via tartare:
VH-XXX - do you know if CASA will also mandate any kind of anti-collision strobe being fitted to them?
Those LEDs that cyclists use are very effective, highly visible and lightweight with low power draw.
I wonder if that could address two problems - make them much more visible to pilots of full sized aircraft...

The little Boeing drones being tested/used in Oz at the moment have strobes and transponder fitted and on sunny day conditions are practically impossible to see from a pilots perspective. I normally pick em up on TCAD first if i see them at all.

Probably the answer is the work being done re the drone itself taking see and avoid action independent of the drone operator thus leaving the piloted aircraft to continue on in blissful ignorance.










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[nitpicker330]

COMMUNICATION.

Tell both the Helo Pilot and the Drone operator of the others position and intentions and all should be ok.

Lights are nice but in daylight highly ineffective as a first line of defense.

This needs to be officially coordinated.

End of story.

Until then.........keep away.

[Oracle1]

Fit transponder and modern avionics with traffic avoidance for both parties and have operators and pilots trained and briefed together.All on the same frequency and off we go. Hate to break it to you but the FPV equipment has 3 axis autopilots, stability augmentation, GPS, can fly in cloud with artificial horizons and full auto return home. All in contained in less than the size of an GA radio unit see Hobby King for details coming soon to CASA's backyard near you. Pizza delivery anyone?


Look here
FPV Skywalker instrument flight in the clouds. - YouTube


and for the speed freaks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWh3dWLvF28&list=TLIVVYj5L2PGQ-S9kE5CuHWM99HA5mv6lY

[500N]

Bringing in regulations and laws and getting this info to owners
are two different things. And getting people to understand and
adhere to them ?

A fair few will have had nothing to do with the aviation world,
thinking it's just like a RC model.

[Flying Binghi]

via 500N:
Bringing in regulations and laws and getting this info to owners
are two different things...

The other thing to consider is future drone proliferation.

Sounds difficult enuf to see and avoid one drone over a fire. Imagine having to avoid dozens of separately tasked drones on a single flight..:ooh:









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[tartare]

Perhaps CASA need a few strategically placed micro-SAM batteries as enforcement tools...:E

[Andy_RR]

Perhaps CASA need a few strategically placed micro-SAM batteries as enforcement tools...:E

Yeah! They could use them to finish their job on GA quickly and end the sufferin' :p

[oicur12.again]

“A crop-duster banging along at 80 knots or whatever is not going to see even an aircraft grade strobe on a half metre by half metre UAV floating in front of him.”

This is very true, but any quad copter flyer with half a brain and a set of ears will here the crop duster way before it arrives on scene and simply land. The vast majority of the time my quad spends in the air is less than 200’ or about 5 seconds from touch down. It is NOT going to be mixing it up on airways used by aircraft and creating a hazard.

“if you are aware of a "clapped out" aircraft being flown i suggest you contact the relevant authorities”

Really mate, you don’t think GA has a problem with clapped out old s&$@box aircraft cutting corners on maintenance? Maybe things have really changed since my time……..

There are far greater threats out there worthy of cyber time than a 500 buck quad.

[Fflatlander]

Regardless of all that has been said so far, the bottom line is that in the event ot a near miss or colision with a piloted aircraft, there will never be any life risk to the drone operator.

[Andy_RR]

Regardless of all that has been said so far, the bottom line is that in the event ot a near miss or colision with a piloted aircraft, there will never be any life risk to the drone operator.


...hence the pilot of the manned aircraft should take as much care as possible, since his/her life is at risk.

[Flying Binghi]

via oicur12.again:
This is very true, but any quad copter flyer with half a brain and a set of ears will here the crop duster way before it arrives on scene and simply land. The vast majority of the time my quad spends in the air is less than 200’ or about 5 seconds from touch down. It is NOT going to be mixing it up on airways used by aircraft and creating a hazard.

Hmmm... lucky for you fires are such quiet affairs..:hmm:

oicur12.again, i've been practically under a helicopter water dump and the first i knew of it were the 'bubbles' blowing past me. Standing near a working bulldozer, multiple trucks with pumps full on, the fire crackle, and the noise affecting heat probably what covered up the noise of the chopper.

oicur12.again, your an accident waiting to happen.


via oicur12.again:
...you don’t think GA has a problem with clapped out old s&$@box aircraft cutting corners on maintenance?...

I'll repeat myself. oicur12.again, if you are aware of an un-airworthy aircraft being flown i recommend you report it to the relevant authorities.
I would suggest though that you don't confuse a faded paint job and bugs on a windscreen with airworthiness.:hmm:











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[oicur12.again]

“Hmmm... lucky for you fires are such quiet affairs..”

Good point, fair enough. I have never stood amongst fire crews and did not consider the high noise levels to which you refer. I have no doubt that had I been present, I would have chosen not to fly my quad as I will only fly when I have line of sight and can clearly hear my surroundings for people, vehicles, planes etc.

I did not mean to suggest sneaking up to a fire fighting scene with a quad and secretly flying it overhead in the hope that no fire bomber collides with it either. Not cool.

BUT, quads offer huge potential to enhance safety and awareness of fire crews and emergency service workers in general and trust me; they WILL become an integral part of any rescue scene.

In California where I live, every fire department/EMS/Police force is testing quads with downlink and LOVING the opportunity they provide.

“your an accident waiting to happen”

I suggest you think about this comment a little more before becoming so arrogant.

“…..if you are aware of an un-airworthy aircraft being flown i recommend you report it to the relevant authorities.”

No, it appears from your comments that GA in Australia has radically changed in the last 20 years since I was involved and all GA lighties are now maintained in tip top shape. That’s fantastic to hear.

[AnQrKa]

Binghi

" if you are aware of an un-airworthy aircraft being flown i recommend you report it to the relevant authorities."

I gotta say, I almost pi#$%@ myself laughing when I read this.

I dont think there were ANY AIRWORTHY aircraft around back in my day in GA.

[601]

BUT, quads offer huge potential to enhance safety and awareness of fire crews and emergency service workers in general and trust me; they WILL become an integral part of any rescue scene.

How much water do they carry?