Undue Deference to Senior Officers

[Warmtoast]

Do we pay undue deference to senior officers, and if so why?


I ask because a long time ago (1957) a personal example of this affected me. Not badly, but it left a nasty taste that I’ve never forgotten — read on.


Background
In 1956 I was posted to the Far East and recorded my journey out to the Far East on PPRune here: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/455388-what-way-go-1950-s-style.html and arrived at R.A.F. Negombo, Ceylon (Sri Lanka) on 15th November 1956.

Once at Negombo I settled in and started to explore the various leisure activities on offer at the station. Sailing was of particular interest because four years earlier I’d been a member of the R.A.F. Thornhill, (N’Gamo Dam — S. Rhodesia) sailing club on a previous posting. I wasn’t particularly good at the little sailing I did there and never did gain any sailing proficiency certificates as my sailing capabilities at the time were pretty mediocre at best, but on arrival in Ceylon with the gorgeous Ceylon weather and sailing available so near to the station I was willing to have another go.


The R.A.F. Negombo sailing club sailed on the Negombo Lagoon about a mile from the station. There were plenty of active members, it had a clubhouse and boat shed and was active socially with families actively involved in the fortnightly BBQ’s with locally caught crabs a speciality. The lagoon was a marvellous stretch of nearly land-locked water about five miles long by two miles wide. The furthest strip of land isolated it from the Indian Ocean which meant there was no ocean swell or high waves so sailing conditions were ideal.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/KatAppRwy22b_zps933349d8.jpg


Negombo Lagoon can be seen at the end of Negombo’s Rwy 22


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/Kat1980-2a_zps81e2d5a7.jpg


Another photo of the Lagoon as seen when taking-off from Negombo’s Rwy 22. The boat sheds and club house are hidden by the trees at the water’s edge.


Having paid my subs and read the rules I started sailing under instruction as a novice using the club’s “Cadet” dinghies. The club had a Royal Yachting Association (RYA) licensed examiner, so my aim was to gain the necessary sailing experience and prove my competence as a yachtsman by taking the RYA helmsmen’s exam that covered both theory and practice (how to tie nautical knots, man overboard recovery etc. — I still remember the various items and sailing terms in the exam such as how to identify the leech, luff, clew and the tack and how to tie a bowline and reef knot as well as how to tell the difference between a halyard and painter — all pretty useless stuff nowadays, but at the time essential info if one aimed to get a helmsmen’s ticket). This I did successfully after a month or so and with the signed certificate graduated to the higher performance “Fleetwind” yachts in the club’s fleet. The Fleetwinds allowed for exciting sailing, being relatively light and with a generous sail area they were easy to get up on the plane when the wind was strong enough and I spent many happy hours exploring the lagoon both solo and with other club members as ‘crew’ in the Fleetwinds.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/Cadet_zpsedd27fe1.jpg


“Cadet” novice sailing dinghy, note the blunt bow – to stop one going too fast perhaps!


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/Fleetwind1a_zps8e181537.jpg


“Fleetwind” dinghy with a young Warmtoast at the helm.


But after a couple of months sailing at Negombo, my sailing world came crashing down when I was posted to R.A.F. China Bay on the north-eastern side of the island near the RN Base at Trincomalee. Having arrived at China Bay and with so much water around I was disappointed to find that there was no R.A.F. sailing club or facilities; however, across the bay at Trincomalee the RN shore establishment (“HMS Highflyer”) operated a well run and organised sailing club under the aegis of the Royal Naval Sailing Association.


Having made enquiries it seemed that although I was R.A.F. I would be welcomed as a member of the “HMS Highflyer” RN Sailing Association club and sail with them; which I did. There were no subs and assume the RN treated sailing as a perk that everyone in the Navy should be encouraged to take part in. I had an interview with the Commodore of the club, a Lt. Commander RN whose day job was Queen’s Harbour Master (QHM) for the Trincomalee naval base. Having shown him my RYA licence I was given general advice about sailing in the bays around the Trincomalee / China Bay area. He passed me on to a RN Petty Officer member of the club so I could be assessed on my competence to sail and be given some practical advice on rigging and sailing the club’s dinghies (Royal Navy Sailing Association 14-footers commonly known as ‘RNSA 14s’). He took me for a couple of trips around the Trincomalee harbour local area and I was shown where and where not to sail, given the helm and I proved to him that I was proficient enough to be let loose in a RNSA dinghy without being shipwrecked in some obscure Trinco bay!


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/RNSA14ftampRayChase_zps4eb996e7.jpg


Royal Navy Sailing Association (RNSA) 14 sailing boat. Clinker-built and gaff rigged they were strong and sturdy and with a wide beam ideal for exploring the many bays around Trincomalee and China Bay. The occupant was my regular “crew”.

Racing with the Royal Navy


As a relative novice the PO said I would be welcome to race with the RNSA members and would I be interested — yes of course! Racing at Trinco was organised in two groups; Wednesday afternoons when novices raced and Saturday afternoons when those judged ‘experienced’ raced. One couldn’t be regarded ‘experienced’ until one had raced a full season of Wednesday races as a ‘novice’. Being R.A.F. and with no RNSA experience I was judged a ‘novice’ and joined those racing on Wednesday afternoons.
To start with I was not particularly good, most RN sailors who I sailed against were far better than me and my inexperience showed, but after a week or so everything changed and I started to win races. I thought this was rather odd — here I was, an R.A.F. landlubber with no long-term sailing expertise beating experienced sailors who probably had saltwater coursing through their veins. It just wasn’t right, I shouldn’t be winning, but I was. However, I wasn’t too worried; in fact I was elated, believing I was a good or very good sailor the proof being that I was beating ‘real’ sailors at their own game!


Winning Leaves a Nasty Taste


I raced the best part of four months as a novice and at the end of the season I’d won more races than the others in the Wednesday group and was declared winner. At the party and prize giving held to celebrate the end of the season; I was presented as the winner of the Wednesday group with a mini-cup, a yachtsman’s knife with a marlin spike and a medal. Having been declared winner and presented with my prizes, I was pulled to one side by the Commodore of the club (Trinco’s QHM) and told as I remember it well from fifty-six years ago: “(my real name) congratulations on winning the series, however you are obviously not aware of how we do things in the Navy, what you probably don’t know is that when the Admiral sails (and he sailed most Wednesday afternoons, but I didn’t know this) we allow him to win, you being R.A.F. have spoilt this for him and next time you sail against him in a race we will expect you to follow the navy tradition of letting him win – understand?” “Yes sir” I replied, saying ‘yes’ because I wanted to continue sailing the RNSAs in my spare time. If I said no I assume I’d have been expelled from the club which would have been awful from my point of view because at the time I was obsessed by sailing as a worthwhile past-time at China Bay, added to which I had a couple of R.A.F. colleagues who sailed with me as crew who would have been as gutted as me if we’d no longer been allowed to sail.


Afterwards, initially having been elated at my win I had time to reflect and realised that I probably wasn’t as good a sailor as I thought and felt rather depressed. If the RN sailors had been out to win and not allowed the admiral to win, I feel sure I would have been well down the pecking order rather than outright winner of the Wednesday series, which was a sobering thought. However, my relative inexperience showed when I sailed later in the ‘experienced’ category and didn’t win a single race. The admiral (Vice-Admiral H. W. Biggs, C-in-C East Indies Station) continued to sail in the Wednesday ‘novice’ series so the competition I had when I sailed against experienced sailors on Saturdays was real with no deference shown to a senior officer.


This attitude of unwarranted obsequiousness to someone because of their rank rather than ability has vexed me for a long time and as I said above leaves a nasty taste. So the question is — is this attitude of deferring to senior officers regardless of their capabilities a trait unique to the RN, or does it prevail in the other services including our own R.A.F.?


Of course in the line of duty due deference to authority has to be shown, but deference in a sporting context is a no-no I’d have thought. I realise that the 21st century attitude to superiors and those in authority is vastly different to what it was fifty years ago, but some habits die hard and I wonder does undue deference to senior officers in the context I’ve described above still prevail?










PS to the Above
A couple of photos from my album showing Vice Admiral Biggs presenting his officers to Solomon Bandaranaike, prime minister of Ceylon, at the hand-over ceremony of the RN East Indies Station base at Trincomalee to the Ceylon navy on 15th October 1957 when the White Ensign was replaced by the Ceylon naval ensign. The other is of the RN cruiser “HMS Ceylon” at anchor in Trinco harbour (which at the time of the handover was flying the flag of the Commander-in-Chief East Indies Station, Vice Admiral Biggs) whilst in the background a couple of Ceylon’s Whalers can be seen sailing.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/HMSHighflyer-Handover3_zps2741f89e.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/HMSHighflyer-Handover2_zps17492c15.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/ChinaBay-HMSCeylon_zps2a5adb54.jpg


Of the trophies I won, the mini cup has long since gone, the medal I still have and the yachting knife with marlin spike resides in the garden shed and is used for cutting twine and general garden use. I never did use the spike for its original purpose of untying knots, but remember as a boy having a similar knife and was told the spike was to remove stones from the hooves of horses, so when presented with the knife I wondered what use it would be to me in Ceylon? Principally because never once during my time in Ceylon did I see a horse — oxen drawing carts yes plenty, elephants foraging in the jungle by one of the bays adjacent to the airfield yes — but horses no! So removing stones from the hooves of oxen or from wild elephant’s feet made it pretty useless tool in a Ceylon context, but for cutting garden twine 56-years later it’s just the job!


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/SailingClubMedal1_zps112a8e7e.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/YachtingKnifewithMarlinSpike_zps283a541d.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/ChinaBay_zpse2b8cd61.jpg


Ox Cart at entrance to R.A.F. China Bay


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Gan%20Sailing/ElephantinElephantBay_zpsc5007d36.jpg


Wild elephants regularly foraged in the jungle around the airfield. I took this photo of an elephant in the scrub-jungle alongside the airfield. The adjacent bay had an unpronounceable Singhalese name, but because of the regular incursions by elephants to feed we in the R.A.F. just called it “Elephant Bay”.

[Basil]

Don't know about undue deference but it was once suggested to me that 'I leave it out' when I suggested that a local crew in the Med shouldn't continue racing after they'd used their engine to get off a bank upon which they'd grounded. They WERE hosting us so I guess I was wrong and the diplomatic course was the better to sail :)

[Pontius Navigator]

So the question is — is this attitude of deferring to senior officers regardless of their capabilities a trait unique to the RN, or does it prevail in the other services including our own R.A.F.?


This is a civilian take but, as it happens, involves an Admiral.

I was croupier and ran the roulette as part of a fairly wide area charity scheme in north Lincolnshire.

Now one day we were requested to provide a casino at Belchford to raise funds for Lincoln Cathedral. The admiral concerned had hired a large marquee for a wedding and took the opportunity for run this charity event.

The roulette was going well and people were winning and losing although I, as the bank, was definitely winning. Then the admiral hove in to sight, placed a couple of chips on the table and chatted to all and sundry. When I called the winning number and paid out the bets the admiral scooped up 'his' winnings.

As the game progressed it became obvious that the old boy would always win regardless of where he had placed his bets. In the end I started to pay out twice, to the admiral and to the winner!

[500N]

PN

IMHO, that is wrong.

In the services I can "understand" even though I might not like it
but in a civilian context, not a hope would I allow them to get away
with it.


I think in Stormin' Normans book he made a comment that the jokes made by a Brigadier General seemed to go down better than when he was a Colonel !!!

[Courtney Mil]

What an excellent, well-written and fascinating post, Warmtoast. Thank you.

As for deference to senior officers, I can recount a story. I was a TWU instrucor and QWI at RAF Chivenor in the mid-80s and, one Christmas, we had a staff competition, invented by the Harrier and Jaguar mates. It involved a rapid plan to do some weapons events on Pembrey range and a number of off-range targets, both recce and simulated attacks. Everything had rigid times on target with points added or deducted for results and timing - and some other mud-moving stuff that I probably didn't really get. Oh, and fuel on the ground was scored too. Every pilot in flying wing competed and it took three waves of our marvlous Hawk fleet to get everyone through. Excellent sport!!

I was on the second wave and before I got my targets and timing I was intercepted by pilots from the first wave with some cleverly disguised, but rather obvious disinfomation about the mission. I quickly learnt that the gloves were off in this mud-moving game and pressed on with my planning.

I did take to time to think about the areas that were most significant to the gaining or losing of points - an Air Defender in this situation needs to make sure that the effects of lack of air-to-ground experience weren't too big a disadvantage. Whether to sacrifice timing against weapons and recce scores was a big issue and the time spent on that aspect of planning turned out to be well spent.

Anyway, long story short(ish), I had great conditions at Pembrey for the live (practise) weapons and the off range targets were fine. After landing, remembering the "gloves off" I went to the rear cockpit and set the weapons override switch to override. This was an item that the next pilot in the jet (for the third wave) was required to check according to the checklist, but a failure so to do would cost him dear - no weapons release.

The next pilot to fly that jet was OC Flying - a bloody good man (N**ry B**l) and the officer that had given me the absolutely best stand-up bollocking I have ever had in my life (nothing to do with this occasion).

When I saw the jet allocation for the third wave, it did briefly cross my mind about warning him to do his checks thoroughly, but decided it was not for Flt Lt Courtnage to offer advice about flying to Wg Cdr B**l.

He flew his sortie without a snag. Later in the bar where the results were being announced, I was attacked by a totally enraged (understandably) wg cdr. I cannot repeat here what he called me, especially when I admitted that I knew he was flying that jet. But he did have to admit that it would only have been an issue if he had failed to complete his checks correctly.

None of my "clever" japes directed at senior officers ever did me any harm. All the harm done to my career was done completely by me in numerous other ways!

Courtney

[Pontius Navigator]

PN

IMHO, that is wrong.

In the services I can "understand" even though I might not like it
but in a civilian context, not a hope would I allow them to get away
with it.

I quite agree, I wasn't condoning it, what I did was recompense the real winner after they let the admiral take their winnings. I did try a couple of time rapping his fingers :)

[Wander00]

Had a lot of fun at B....k on the exercise distaff, spoofing senior officers, especially the stn cdr, D.....C......... There were times when he did not see the funny side of it and I reckoned my second career was screwed before it started -but my ACR on his departure proved that he had taken it all in good sport.

[1.3VStall]

First, Warmtoast, thank you for a most interesting post. It really was another world when postings in the RAF included S. Rhodesia and Sri Lanka!

My tale relates to when "Curly Bill" was in charge at High Wycombe. I was part of an escort to an official visit of a number of foreign air force generals. Throughout the whole day, Curly Bill's PSO, a gp capt, called him "Commander in Chief" every time he spoke to him. It became extremely irritating. What was wrong with "sir"? Uriah Heep kept coming to mind!:ugh:

[Courtney Mil]

That PSO job must have been a punishment tour. I'd rather had suffered a public beheading.

[Pontius Navigator]

One day I was acting doorman at circa £45k pa, and remarked to the visiting gp capt, who was the other doorman, that the star count so far was 21.

He complained to my boss, a mere sqn ldr, that I was being disrespectful. I usually found senior officers not in command appointments to be almost human. In his case I noted that he was medically discharged not long afterwards as the his post-operative cerebumectomy had been unsuccessful.

[MPN11]

I spent an inordinate amount of my Service life involved in shooting competitions at Bisley (both with Target and Service weapons). Rank had few privileges there ... The shots scored what they scored, whether fired by an SAC or a Gp Capt, or indeed an AVM. Indeed, your 'status' on "The Common" was mixture of your skill and your attitude and relationship to other competitors.

Thus it was that we were able to bollock a very competent gp capt (sadly recently deceased) for losing us the Inter-Command match by shooting on the wrong targets! Snobbery and rank has no place in sport. It is the place where we are all equals, striving to be the best at whatever we are doing.

In the workplace, it's a different game. Different rules, and much more challenging to score a point or two on a senior rank :cool:

[26er]

Perhaps it is a bit off track but casting my mind back - and it is now 44 years since I retired - the captain of an aircraft, no matter what his rank was supposed to be addressed by all on board as "sir". I do remember as a young Fg Off Meteor QFI feeling embarrassed when my Gp Capt student insisted on calling me such and he did the same when he flew with the only NCO QFI on the flight.

Do such gentlemanly rules still apply?

[ShyTorque]

So the question is — is this attitude of deferring to senior officers regardless of their capabilities a trait unique to the RN, or does it prevail in the other services including our own R.A.F.?

In my RAF time it was normal to beat the Boss at all competitive events to show him who really ran the squadron. :E

[500N]

Question for those who served in the RAF and RN.

If you ever played "mess games" like mess Rugby or whatever, did you defer to senior ranks ?

Reason I ask is in the Army here in Aus on one camp (I was an Offr Cdt at the time), they liked it if you didn't defer to them, wanted to see what you were made of !

I was a bit in awe of the Chaplain until he told me to be otherwise :O

[ShyTorque]

I was a bit in awe of the Chaplin until he told me to be otherwise

Did he use mime?

[strake]

Brilliant post with some excellent photo's.

Perhaps best to think that in his cups and later years, yon Admiral would have known he was cheating and at some point, the shame would have kicked-in.

[Warmtoast]

Strake


>Admiral would have known he was cheating<


Possibly not, after all he was not doing the cheating, it was the ratings, POs etc. who were not trying to win.

[Union Jack]

This attitude of unwarranted obsequiousness to someone because of their rank rather than ability has vexed me for a long time

Well, Warmtoast, apart from observing that the knife which you won was actually a perfectly standard issue "pusser's dirk" which had nothing to do with horses, with its single blade, a marlin spike, and a rudimentary screwdriver, and that it was the two-and-a-half ringer who had the problem with obsequiousness, and certainly not you, I thoroughly enjoyed the wonderful post, and the beautiful illustrations, which brought this all to light!:ok:

Let me simply say that I knew the sadly prematurely departed Vice Admiral Geoffrey Biggs, the distinguished submariner son of your Vice Admiral Biggs pretty well, and if the father was anything remotely like the son, he would have been appalled to discover what was apparently going on, and I feel that after 56 years you really should stop worrying about it.

Jack

PS I'm only sorry that you were evidently not also awarded the rather fetching light blue burgee adorned with one of your splendid elephants which I understand from an old Trinco hand was the sailing club's special emblem:sad:

[smujsmith]

Warmtoast,

Nice post and I'm sure I understand your drift. I ask only one question. Perhaps I'm around 10 years after your own experience with senior officers, but. I as a SNCO flew gliders with people with more straight stripes than a non commissioned chap could be reasonably expected to count. None, repeat none, were ever known to me by any other name than Dave, Brian or Tom etc. Having trashed a former CDS in the Cotton Club in St John, Newfoundland, I feel that you are talking about subservience rather than deference ? I'm not sure, I joined 1969 and left in 1997. Subservience was never my bag. Perhaps things had changed.

Smudge :ok:

[nimbev]

26er
the captain of an aircraft, no matter what his rank was supposed to be addressed by all on board as "sir".I dont know whether this applies in the ab initio training world, but I never experienced it in either the truckie or kipper fleets, nor when I was with the USN.

[Ken Scott]

If you ever played "mess games" like mess Rugby or whatever, did you defer to senior ranks ?


Quite a few years ago when I was a student on a UAS the AOC was guest of honour at our Annual Dinner. After the meal he insisted on taking part in the mess rugby, it was rather a rough one and unfortunately he suffered a broken wrist - no quarter given there. He returned the following year and in his speech said, 'My wife has banned me from playing rugby tonight!'

[reynoldsno1]

Played in "friendly' service rugby match and the opposition had an Air Commodore at full back. I don't recall hanging back when I tackled him. Nice bloke.

Do officers still salute when entering a fellow officer's office, at least on the first encounter, no matter the rank differential? i.e. a squadron leader would salute on entering a pilot officer's domain first time? Custom of the Service etc ...

[diginagain]

Do officers still salute when entering a fellow officer's office, at least on the first encounter, no matter the rank differential? i.e. a squadron leader would salute on entering a pilot officer's domain first time? Custom of the Service etc ...The RAF have customs? So soon?

[Twon]

It is certainly a custom that I try to keep alive, often much to the surprise of some who no longer practice this. However, I have seen a resurgence of awareness amongst new JOs and long may this simple but respectful gesture continue.

[AGS Man]

What an interesting post.
Whilst working for BAe in Saudi a new General Manager for the site arrived.
No names but he was an ex RAF Group Captain.
He appeared in a crew room shortly after arriving and without introducing himself launched into a briefing. At the end of said brief he asked "any questions"?
One of our Australian Cousins asked the first question
Who the F*** are you!

[onetrack]

Warmtoast, I was under the impression that the less-than-stellar qualities of any senior officer, that you have provided an example of, from your experience in the Far East, was eliminated around 1917 or 1918.

One has to question the character qualities and leadership ability of a man who doesn't like to lose at anything, and who has to have the playing field tilted in his direction, even when informal games are involved.

What would happen when this so called "man of leadership" was thrust into battle, and commenced to lose dramatically and be pummelled mercilessly by a ruthless enemy?
He'd want to call out "bar-lees!", and want the whole game started again, so he could win??

I would have to say an officer of this type would brook no respect and even less deference from me. I would regard that he has serious character and psychological flaws, that IMO, render him unworthy of holding a commission.

No-one likes to lose, but losing builds character, and develops personal stamina and perseverance. Nothing succeeds like persistance and perseverance (insert Calvin Coolidge quote here).
This officer sounds like he would have crumpled like a cardboard box under the pressure of a real conflict, and when nothing was going right for him..

[Lightning Mate]

Do officers still salute when entering a fellow officer's office

In my time we did, but only if wearing a hat.

Outdoors, I always saluted female officers irrespective of their rank, even if they were below me.

I was taught it back in 1965, and was told it was the equivalent of doffing ones' hat to a lady in the civilian world.

Quite a few junior female officers were surprised that I did it, but all thought it a nice gesture.

I doubt that happens now.

[Basil]

I always saluted female officers irrespective of their rank, even if they were below me.
The achievement of which may have been the object of the gesture :}

[ShotOne]

Very quick, Basil!

I'm happy to say that for (sometimes) all their other faults I never encountered any officer who expected deference on the sporting field.

[FODPlod]

Warmtoast - Is it possible that in your young and callow naivety, you mistook a bit of joshing by the club's Commodore for the real thing and blew it up in your relatively fragile and sensitive mind? I have known similar occasions when someone has said in jocular fashion, "Beating the Commodore at tennis so often isn't going to do your career much good."

Deferring to seniority in sport is not a characteristic of the Royal Navy I remember. If anything, the CO received a particularly good hammering whenever he played deck hockey on the flight deck or played rugby ashore.

I am reminded of an old friend who served in Gibraltar during the 1960s and raced one of the RN-owned 20' Victory class keelboats every week. He was last or nearly last every time. The regulars were very understanding and sympathetic. “She’s an old boat and we have local knowledge,” they said. When his term in Gibraltar eventually came to an end, my friend handed the Victory over to a new arrival, another keen sailor, with apologies for the boat's drawbacks and lousy racing capabilities.

On visiting Gib in a ship the following season, he discovered that the new arrival had re-tuned the boat's rigging and was winning every weekly race. The new arrival was far from being the most senior competitor.

Perhaps you really were that good a sailor?

[Fitter2]

I can only speak for the RAF Gliding and Soaring Association (in the 1960s) when rank was irrelevant on the airfield.

I can recall AVM Sir Theodore McEvoy and Air Commodore Paddy Kearon (both excellent people as well as pretty good glider pilots) deferring to the duty instructor (who happened to be an SAC).

[Roland Pulfrew]

I never encountered any officer who expected deference on the sporting field.

Back in the 80s as a baby pilot playing rugby for my flying training station, we used to have a post match chuckle in the bar at the expense of any army unit we happened to be playing. All too often we heard "pass to me, Sir" or "kick for touch, sir" etc whenever an army officer got the ball. I guess they had the last laugh though, as all too often they beat us, and that was in the days before the British Army was full of Fijian rugby internationals :}

As for saluting on entering an office, I was taught that when I went through IOT (and still do it myself), but I think open plan offices has made a bit of a dent in the tradition. :sad: Personally I think it is a decline in the standards instilled (or not) at Sleaford Tech these days - but then I am getting old now.

[Free Vortex]

None of my "clever" japes directed at senior officers ever did me any harm. All the harm done to my career was done completely by me in numerous other ways!

You don't really believe that, do you Courtney? (when I managed to get my old 'unseen' F1369s I found out what 2nd/3rd ROs had really written, despite what they had said at the time).

PS AOCinC STC PSO would have been a wg cdr, not a gp capt- the gp capt would have come from elsewhere in HQSTC.

[gr4techie]

I've heard cases where the opposite of deference, was expected.

On a "turkey trot" cross country run, you were expected to finish before the CO. Rumour had it that anyone who finished the run behind the CO would be charged for poor fitness.

[Pom Pax]

A fellow nav. student was requested to be at the Thorney Island Sailing Club jetty at 8.00 a.m. on Monday morning. It transpired that his task was to take the painter whilst a more senior officer held the dingy steady. All under the supervision the Station Commander whose duty was to give an AOC a helping hand onto the jetty after his weekend aboard his yatch. Apparently this was quite a common Monday morning ritual.
n.b. The gentleman was not AOC FTC but a well known name at the time.

[dervish]

There's been at least one VSO on here who demanded undue deference!

[BEagle]

A classic abuse of power happened at an RAF FTS when the late, unlamented 'PCL' was Stn Cdr.

He invited all the students due to graduate and receive their wings the following day to his residence...

...to act as beaters for his tame game birds, so that they could be blasted away by various visiting Air Wheels, with whom the PCL was schmoozing. But they did their job so effectively that the birds all buggered off into the distance at warp snot before anyone could take aim :ok:

PCL? Power Crazed Loony.

[500N]

"the birds all buggered off into the distance at warp snot"

I've never known birds to do anything but warp speed,
pheasant, grouse, partridge :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

Indeed. But the beaters had started rather too early for the PCL's fellow flak gunners, so there were none left by the time they'd put up their guns.

At least one profligate senior officer did get his comeuppance though: Ousting of RAF chief was fair, say officers - News - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ousting-of-raf-chief-was-fair-say-officers-1572458.html)

Others though, were almost of the same mindset as Jimmy Savile....allegedly.

[1.3VStall]

Another VSO tale from the Heyday of the RAFGSA.

During the Inter-Services Gliding Competition in the 70s, AVM Don Spotiswood landed out at RAF Abingdon. He was collected from the middle of the airfield by the Air Traffic Landrover and delivered to local, where the flt lt SATCO launched into a vitriolic tirade about the irresponsibility of glider pilots.

Don Spot said nothing until the tirade finally finished. He then reached into his pocket, pulled out his wallet and removed his F1250. Handing it over he said "Flt Lt, shall we start this conversation again?"

[ShotOne]

Assuming it wasn't a misunderstanding, the story reflects badly on the admiral...but even more badly on all the others who went along with it! I've never come across this in any yacht club, either service or outside, where min wage earners mix with multi-millionaires.

[vascodegama]

On the subject, a fellow student at Cranwell offered the following advice on when to salute:

"When entering and leaving another OFFICER"

[Xercules]

Many moons ago there was a 46Gp based at Upavon. Came the day for the demise of 46Gp and there was to be a farewell dining in at Lyneham at which the AOC, AVM Norman Hoad, was to be the principal guest. After a very good dinner and the usual toasts NH stood up to make his speech which ran something like this: "Ladies and Gentlemen, tonight is not a night for frivolity. Tonight there are to be no mess games. Tonight there is to be no mess rugby......"

I don't know what his real intention was because I next met him about an hour later coming the opposite way through the Tunnel of Love. His mess kit was in a similar state to mine and his face very shortly after rubbing hard against the carpet as I battled to get over him using elbows and knees to maximum effect.

That night or even in the days immediately afterwards there were no interviews either with or without coffee as far as I am aware.

[Samuel]

Obituary: Marshal of the RAF Lord Elworthy - People - News - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-marshal-of-the-raf-lord-elworthy-1453675.html)

This chap was due a fair go as far as due deference was concerned, and I had personal experience of meeting him post his return to New Zealand.

I had just completed an OO Duty [Flt Lt at the time!] and was having breakfast when the Boss arrives and sits down with a coffee. "What have you got planned for the day?" he asks, and I get the immediate impression that whatever was planned was about to be undone. So, making myself available[sic] he asks if I could do a meet and greet at the airport for him: "an ex-RAF VIP" was all I got. So I go to the airport and join the crew of the RNZAF aircraft which had been laid on, and waited for my VIP.

It was raining heavily, so I'm standing under the wing, when a car arrives and out gets a Marshal of The RAF, a rank I had never seen and which of course doesn't exist in NZ. He moved to the boot, and I immediately suggested he board the the aircraft and I would get his brief-case."Son" he says, "if you're getting wet, then we'll both get wet". I was hugely impressed, Not overawed you understand, we generally don't go overboard on deference down here, but very impressed at his consideration.

He was a Kiwi , of course!:D

[astir 8]

Just having come across this rather aged but fun thread - clearly the RAFGSA's egalitarian nature caused more than a few inter-rank difficulties.

The story I heard concerned a weekend gathering of GSA members at a certain airfield too many years ago. All were in civvies and happily bunked in together in a vacant airman's dormitory.

On the Saturday night Chinese takeaways and alcoholic beverages had been procured and were happily being consumed, with packaging somewhat scattered around the dormitory when in came God's Annointed, the SWO, who did wax wrathful at the scene and demanded to know who was the senior rank present.

"I suppose that would be me" came an Irish-accented voice from the back.

"Right, you in my office in five minutes" said the SWO, who departed to prepare a royal b******ing.

"I suppose I'd better put on my uniform then" said the Irish guy.

I understand that the SWO had to significantly change his proposed speech (and possibly his underwear as well) when he found an Air Commodore standing meekly in front of his desk!

- Paddy Kearon yet again.

[langleybaston]

QUOTE: At least one profligate senior officer did get his comeuppance though: Ousting of RAF chief was fair, say officers - News - The Independent

He was certainly hard on those he perceived incompetent, but in my experience* was one of the good guys.

* He was a customer as a flt lt Hunter man at Guetersloh c. 1968, also a near neighbour; then latterly I was his Met HoB at JHQ when he was AOCinC.

[Krystal n chips]

Hobart Barracks, Detmold...mid 70's and the RAFG gliding world is holding its annual competition allied to various forms of "social excesses " .

The Army had graciously allocated a block for showers etc, but only at specific times of the day....thus two of our community were happily ambling across from tent city one day when, approaching the block, they were socially introduced to a pristine individual proudly wearing.....two shiny pips.

Being the Army, and Detmold being home to various units at the time, one being a cavalry regiment, our hero duly commenced his introduction with the demand the pair stand to attention... and who were they.... whilst commenting as to their somewhat dishevelled appearance.... all in a very cut glarse haccent.

Now, you might have thunk, that, being one of Sandhurst's elite, he would have noticed one was a young SAC and the other, a middle aged gentleman. Sadly, not.

The SAC was duly ranted at, and then he turned his attention to the middle aged gentleman.....at which point, said gentleman, who had remained silent thus far, duly produced his ID card ...with the rank of Lt.Col displayed.

Our hero, it seems, turned a whited shade of pale at this point....and thereafter, during the ensuing conversation, limited in his case to "Yes / No Sah" was reduced to a quivering wreck. The words "effin wee gob****e", were, I understand clearly audible as the pair entered the block once the one way conversation had ceased.

We arrived shortly after this meeting of minds had taken place and were suitably amused as to the outcome.

Said Lt.Col, of Scottish origin, had joined as a boy signaller, spent several years with the Ghurka's, been a member of the "White Helmets", done some "interesting " stuff in N.I,...and had a BEM for Gallantry awarded in Malaya....and, as he put it, managed to avoid the (rude word ) of staff college whilst rising to Lt.Col.

His appearance, described by many with genuine respect for his natural leadership, was "a scruffy little Jock ".... alas, appearances can be deceptive.

[BEagle]

SORF courses at RAF Leeming often included enthusiastic wheels returning to flying after a spell of chair-polishing. Normal courtesies were of course observed, but the QFI:student relationship remained as normal.

Usually.

Normally one offered a pre-debrief cuppa to one's QFI after a trip; however, one QFI decided that it would be more fitting if he offered his rather senior student a cup of tea one Monday morning.

Scrabbling around in the bowels of the fridge, he discovered that the milk was off, so turned to his 'student' and asked "Would you like coffee mate?".

The trip hadn't gone that well and the 'student' wasn't in the best of moods, so he responded "Now look, young man, there's such a thing as taking informality too far...."

"Sorry, SIR. I should have said that the milk is off, SIR, so would you like Coffee-mate in your tea, SIR?"

History does not record what the 'student' said next....:(

[FAStoat]

Back in the dim and distant,one of my best mates was Sqn QFI on a Hunter outfit in Bahrain.The Boss had been replaced by a very Ex Hunter Pilot,who had little previous Hunter time,and his promotion from a Staff Course.Upon arrival at the Sqn,he had to undergo his refamil with my Mate.This included of course, an oral on Emergencies.Apparently he could just about keep up in the Flying,but lacked any real knowledge of the Aircraft limitations let alone systems!Net result he was failed and asked to read the books again, before he produced himself for another go!!!Meantime he approached the Staish,who got him signed off by another of higher rank.This caused certain friction,so when a 4 ship was scheduled to fly to Eastleigh,the Flight Commander (My Mate Ray)leading,was informed by the new "Boss" that he would like to be in the Team!?Ray then gave the lead to an hotshot one ringer, one Duckie D,which was not appreciated elsewhere.I believe it was a first to have a young Flying Officer lead such a trip,and you know who ended up as No4 and burst a tyre on landing,as I recall!!Several more acrimonious situations occurred,but said New Boss never got further than Air Commode!!!Then,,I have a feeling he became an Airline Safety Officer!!'Nuff said!!

[ian16th]

Probably an urban myth, but the story goes:

One F. S. Trueman is doing his National Service as an LAC in the Sports Store at RAF Hemswell.

During the summer, his prime task is to open the bowling for the Combined Services. If they didn't have a fixture, he was available for the RAF team.
If they didn't have a fixture, he played for the Bomber Command team, and so on.

If all else failed he spent his Wednesday afternoon playing for the RAF Hemswell station team.

On one such occasion, they were playing an away match where the opposing Staish fancied himself as an opening batsman. The umpire was the SWO!

Freddie's 1st ball takes a very thick edge, and is caught at 2nd slip, the SWO says Not Out.

Freddie gets steamed up and his 2nd ball get the Staish firmly on the pads, dead inline and appeals for LBW. The SWO says again, Not Out.

Freddie's 3rd ball, bowls the Staish all ends up, the stumps spread all over the pitch, the bails nearly at the boundary, he turns round to the SWO/Umpire and says, "I nearly got 'im that time, didn't I?"

[Stanwell]

:D:D:D ..is all I can say.

[taxydual]

Seeing as cricket has been mentioned.........

Early '80's, the Prince Andrew 'attends' RNEFTS at Topcliffe, training on the Bulldog, prior to do stirring stuff 'dahn sarf'.

Oi/c Cricket at RAF Leeming (TP's parent unit) decides it would be good for his promotion prospects (Oi/c Cricket, not HRH's) if an Officers vs Leeming First XI match could be organised.

The 'wheels' agreed to this. Indeed the then Staish and most of the 'heads of sheds' would play.

The first XI however, were not impressed.

Surprisingly, there were a considerable amount of Yorkshiremen amongst them. It meant having to clean up the pavilion, having to cough up some cash to pay for 'drinkies' for the 'wheels', (the Staish being almost Yorkshire, short armed, deep pocketed) and worst of all, having their whites white for once. Even worse, the SWO was rumoured to be an umpire, so haircuts had to be endured. As it happened, the SWO was otherwise engaged so the monies spent on haircuts further drove the first XI to inimpressedness.

Spies had been sent to the Officers Mess "What does HRH drink?", "Ginger Ale" came the reply. "Bugger" said Freddie the Frog, the cricket teams SAC barman "We don't sell that". "I'll sell you a case" says OM manager. "Bugger" says Freddie the Frog,the cricket teams SAC barman having to pay for the case himself.

Come the day.

The pavilion gleams, the smell of liniment has dispersed, the visiting teams 'facility' has been domestos-ed and scrubbed.

The Ginger Ale is on prominent display at the bar.

Play commences. First XI win the toss and elect to bat.

Staish invites HRH to open the bowling, mumblings of "creep" come from the remaining first XI (IX?) left at the pavilion bar. What fool decided to open the bar, God only knows.

At the first ball bowled, a raucous voice yelled out "Bowlers name, bowlers name" for it was the Scorer, one Sniffing Bob the BCU Cpl and official scorer. He too had access to the pavilion bar.

In actual fact, HRH turned out to be a useful bowler. The Staish, at the other end, didn't. He was hit all over the ground. Wg Cdr's and Sqn Ldr's were running after ball after ball. Bear in mind this was in Support Command so most of the wheels suffered from the 3 F's, Fat, Forty and Fags.

Oi/c Cricket is beginning to realise this isn't going well and starts to edge back to very, very deep square leg. In fact, any deeper he would have been standing in an AMQ back garden.

Come the end of the 30 overs or whatever. The teams retired to the pavillion for refreshment and a sandwich lunch. NAAFI Corned Beef sandwiches. Freddie the Frog, the cricket teams SAC barman cum caterer really excelled himself.

HRH approached the bar. "Could I have a Coke?" he asked Freddie. "A Coke, A Coke" yelps Freddie "We've a case of Ginger Ale for you!". "I'd rather like a Coke" replies HRH. Begrudgingly, Freddie hand over a Coke "That'll be 50p" he announces. HRH turns to his police protection officer and is slipped a £20 note which he proffers to Freddie. "£20, £20 I can't change that, what do you think this place is?"

At this point, Oi/c Cricket (who can see his career going down the pan rapidly) coughs up 50p.

To avoid further cough, cough awkwardness, the Staish escorts HRH to the scorers bench to view the score book.

The scorer, one Sniffing Bob the BCU Cpl, overawed by the arrival of Royalty, oh and Prince Andrew, opens the score book for perusal. There, recorded for all prosperity, was the ball by ball account of the first innings. Alas, Sniffing Bob the BCU Cpl and scorer, had recorded in said tome that the opening bowler was one ANDREW WINDSOR.

HRH wasn't having that, nor was the Staish. Oi/c Cricket was sent for, words were spoken, one career went further down the pan. Sniffing Bob the BCU Cpl and scorer was ordered to alter the opening bowlers name to HRH THE PRINCE ANDREW. After all. the score sheet could go down as part of RAF Leeming history.

Come the turn of the 'HRH (and Staish) XI' to bat. Funny old thing but HRH and Staish opened the batting. Oi/c Crickets career went further down the pan when, on hearing the fielding side (the Leeming First XI), clapping the two openers onto the field, a Yorkshire accented voice announced from Short Leg "Gi'ower. Tha claps the buggers goin' out, not comin' in".

Alas, the Staish and the rest of the heads of sheds were more or less seen off in short order. Although HRH did some useful work with the bat and was still there at the end.

After the match, none of the Officers stayed for post match drinkies. Including Oi/c Cricket. Fg Off Roy o'H***. The First XI often wondered if he made Flt Lt.

Further, Sniffing Bob the BCU Cpl and scorer, decided that his original scoring record was correct. So he scored a line through HRH THE PRINCE ANDREW and inserted STET.

Oh, just to add. How do I know all this..........

I was one of the umpires.

Happy (and safe) New Year to all.

[MPN11]

One of my best laughs on PPRuNe for a while ... thank you, Sir! :ok:

[Timesgoneby]

Methinks that the man may have been an above average Dingy sailor but his rank and maybe cultural background has left a slight chip. The headline wasn't addressed well and could be covered in his last few paragraphs...
With the real RAF I never felt uncomfortable about rank.
Once I was told to let go of Dennis Healy (sadly recently passed away) I'd virutally frog-marched him to the Guard room after meeting him knee deep in snow, taking photos of our Transmitters.... How was I to know he was the Minister of Defence? He visited my den at work the next morning accompanied by several senior officers. He patted my shoulder " Hi there F...! how's it going here?... (He'd picked up my name from the Corporal). He asked my 'boss' "What 's the story so far? 'F*** will explain' came the answer from behind... We spent 20 minutes dicussing what was then an 'interesting' situation. I was later quizzed by our Station C/o who'd heard the story...he'd been told I was a 'family friend'.... to which I nodded disapproval, I didn't vote for him I said. Strangely it made little difference to our relationship....he still had more stripes.

[Warmtoast]

Another anecdote from the mid 1950's when I was at Biggin Hill. This time the SWO goes over the top - read on.

Queen Mother - Biggin Hill April 1955
As their Honorary Air Commodore, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, visited Nos. 600 and 2600 (City of London) Squadrons at Biggin Hill on Saturday 23rd April 1955. She flew from Smith’s Lawn, Windsor Great Park, to Biggin Hill in a Westland WS-55 "Whirlwind" helicopter of the Fleet Air Arm, making her first helicopter flight. HM was received by AVM H. L. Patch, A.O.C. No. 11 Group. Later she reviewed a parade of both squadrons and watched a formation fly-past of No. 600 Sqn aircraft and a demonstration of Bofors gun-drill by No. 2600 Sqn.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/QueenMotherPressCutting.jpg
HM arriving


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/BigginQueenMumVisitto615Sqn.jpg

Taken as the Fleet Air Arm Westland WS-55 with the Queen Mother aboard departed from the helicopter pad on the station parade ground on her return to Windsor Great Park.
Her visit was not a particularly nice for one airman in the guard of honour when she pointed out to the SWO (Station Warrant Officer) that the airman's shoes were not as shiny as the others with the result that he was confined to camp of 14-days - this "offence" was the talk of the Station and was not received very kindly and left a somewhat bitter taste.
It was also the occasion I believe when the then Under Secretary of State for Air, George Ward, who was present, was seen to be wearing socks of two different colours, one blue and one brown. When this discrepancy was pointed out, he famously commented: "I have another pair with the same colours in my wardrobe at home”!

[MPN11]

Why was Her Majesty carrying a small dog?

Is that a ****zu? I thought they preferred Corgis?

[RAFEngO74to09]

MPN11,

I think it is a fur stole - not a dog !

Remember those - before "fur -head attached" became non-PC.

HM was often pictured with one.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d3/be/87/d3be872fccdf41b0588e03aca7f6dc08.jpg

[MPN11]

*ahem* I would never have guessed!
(Pesky British humour)

My mother had one too, head attached ;)

[Bill Macgillivray]

MPN11,

And mine! Happy New Year to all.

Bill.

[Stanwell]

I've actually got a pair of them from my mum's estate - jaws spring-clipped so they can hang on to each other's tails.
I only wear them on special occasions, though. :E

[glad rag]

Why was Her Majesty carrying a small dog?

Is that a ****zu? I thought they preferred Corgis?

I'm quite disappointed [from that picture] that the right seater isn't scratching his right temple, everyone else seems to be!! :E

[langleybaston]

my mother's head was attached and it didn't need a spring clip either.

[teeteringhead]

One once went to an impoverished provincial zoo that was in such a bad way that it only had one animal on display, and that was a dog!!

It was a ****zu .............



........... hat, coat, (fox fur stole?) etc......

[wanderinwilco]

A senior member of the Royal Family was undergoing the shipborne part of his flying training. Sat on deck, telebrief connected, following a sortie, the Instructor ( a lieutenant commander) concludes his hot debrief to the Royal sub lieutenant:
"You are a f***ing idiot! Sir. What are you?"
"I'm a f***ing idiot, Sir!"

[Pontius Navigator]

WW, what did Shatky do next? 😁

[langleybaston]

for shat read shar perhaps?

Perhaps not!

[Tinribs]

Just for balance we might give credit where due. I can recall at least two V S offs who gained respect by their behavior.

Air Marshall Sowry, so called bent Fred, because a back condition from nasty accident had left him rather stooped. When he inspected my men at a parade he made a point, with difficulty, of looking every man in the face and chatting to the taller ones, that's class for you.

I tanked a v senior sailor in a Bucc to a red sea rat hole where he chatted to us as we filled her up and repacked the brake chute. we were sent to the back of the mess for a meal as they had a big cheese coming. The steward laughed because they had lost a f..g Admiral at which point he spoke up

No doubt there were many more good blokes I never met

[taxydual]

Ah, seeing as we are talking of old time VSO's.

1979, some boozer in South Bucks Chiltern's.

Self and pal enjoying beer. We get hit on by long retired Sqn Ldr. Nice chap, unknown to us, but after a wee while, self and pal do get rather miffed about his comparisons between his Air Force (1950's) and our Air Force (1970's).

His tirades are interrupted by a silvery haired, tall chap who wandered across and joined in the 'one sided' conversation.

After a minute or two of trying to placate the long retired Sqn Ldr and suffering the odd poke or two proffered by the said retiree, our new found silver haired friend introduced himself.

"Chris Foxley-Norris" How do you do? "It's Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris really, but I'm retired so I don't bother".

Exit one retired Sqn Ldr.

One Sergeant and one corporal had a magic 10 minutes drinking a beer (1/2) bought by a GOD.

[Union Jack]

"Chris Foxley-Norris" How do you do? "It's Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris really, but I'm retired so I don't bother".

Which inevitably reminds me of the tale that the cousins were always intrigued by the fact that, on visits to the United States, Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley was invariably accompanied by Lady Morris.....:uhoh:

Jack

[goofer]

Further thread creep, I fear , but still a nice senior officer story:

It's early 1980's and I'm bag carrying for a dark blue 3* during an official visit to Liverpool. At the start of an exciting day of RN-related engagements we are heading out to inspect the local RNR establishment (EAGLET, I think). The Admiral - of god-like physique and bearing - is resplendent in full fig: scrambled egg, sword, many medals, gold braid in abundance etc etc. and even little me wasn't looking too shabby, trusty Wilkinson knife in hand, shoulder adorned with aiguillettes and Wellingtons at maximum shine.

Our overnight accommodation has been the less-than military Holiday Inn, haunt of Aer Lingus and BMI and even lowly charter aircrew. As we ride down in the lift, trying not to admire ourselves in the mirror, the door opens and in steps a junior bellboy. We continue to descend in silence for several floors as the newcomer eyes us up and down, goggling at every detail of our glittering Senior Service perfection.

At last we reach ground level. Just as the door slides open and we're putting on our caps, the bellboy finds his voice and in a bewildered Scouse accent asks... "What airline do you work for..??"

The expression on the Admiral's iron-jawed face still makes me laugh...

[Old-Duffer]

Deference to senior officers has never been a problem. I view it as common courtesy to someone whose official status is higher than mine and as I was told when a callow youth - 'courtesy costs nothing'.

Furthermore, I have usually found that the more competent the senior officer is and the more comfortable he feels with his status, the easier he is to get on with and the more considerate he is to the lower orders - of which I have the honour to be one.

As with most of us, I have encountered a few VSOs who seem to equate their status with lots of bad temper and angst - and this I ascribe to being uncomfortable or just simply out of their depth. One mildly amusing incident springs to mind.

I attended a meeting in the 'bunker' at High Wycombe post GW1. The 'star' leading the gathering arrived, looked around and ordered all below gp capt to go forth and multiply. I did as directed and as it was 'going home' time on a Friday, did just that. In the days before mobile phones were widely available, I had to smile as I left; I just happened to be the key player in the particular plot being hatched and learned the following Monday how annoyed the star was when asked for the plot devised, to be briefed and was told the briefer was probably halfway to his country gaff already!!!

Old Duffer

[teeteringhead]

And it's very often the SO2s or SO1s in the "Outer Office" who claim "Sir wants this" or "Sir wants that" when Sir is oblivious and probably couldn't give a proverbial.

O-D - next time I see you remind me to tell you my GW1 bunker story which reflects very well on a VSO. For a number of reasons I don't want to tell it here ........

[air pig]

Teeters:

Is that the same thing as the reported conversation between an equipment officer and a certain squadron commander at the start of the Battle of Britain.

[teeteringhead]

Very unlikley, my story depends on mistaken names, one being mine, which is one reason I don't want to air it here! - O-D might know the one you mean, he was an "Equipment Officer"........

[skua]

Jenkins,

Manners Makyth Man indeed, although I think the institution concerned failed in my case.

Aeons ago, when F-N was living at Rufforth Hall (what a fabulous gaff for a VSO) my aunt met F-N at a cocktail party and must have mentioned to him that her young teenage nephew was obsessed with aeroplanes.A few days later I was summoned to Church Fenton for a Chippie ride with YUAS. Result!

[pasta]

I recall one Cowes Week, when we seemed to have a run-in with a certain Marshal of the RAF almost every day (this was back in the days when he was billeted on board a large boat moored just off the Green).

The MRAF was helming, and whenever things got close the tactic was to get our tactician to debate the finer points of the racing rules with him, while our helm concentrated on going fast. 90% of the time, the result was that the opposition slowed down, and we pulled clear ahead.

Throughout the week, I was impressed with how down-to-earth he was. Hate to think what he thought of our tactician though!

[Wander00]

Sir Ivor Broom must have been very near the top of the "gentlemanly" VSO pile

[Old-Duffer]

Re Posts 75 and 76, indeed O-D is a former Equipment Officer (now Logistics!!!! - but the pay is no better). However, I have tried to forget that dubious pedigree and was doubly fortunate that their 'airships' saw fit to employ me frequently on tasks far removed from stacking blankets in Saxa Vord.

However, I know nothing of the story of the equipper and the sqn cdr in the BofB!

O-D

[Innominate]

O-D

I fully believe that you are not the equipment officer who clashed with Sqn Ldr Bader, but surely you know the story...

[Pontius Navigator]

Oh Dear O-D, was Susanah York a squipper?

[goudie]

Air Marshall 'Gus' Walker was a gentleman officer of the old school.

He was our Force Commander when 4 617 Vulcans were detached to Nellis AFB IN '59. to participate in the 'World Congress Of Flight'. The cousins were mightily impressed by the Vulcan and he had the local press eating out of his hand as he gave them a daily briefing on the Vulcans and their displays. Having lost an arm rescuing a crew member from a crashed Wellington he told the press he was the 'original one armed bandit'. They loved that! Going from cold and damp Scampton to Nellis was quite a climate change, especially for us techies, but he made a point of coming out on the line to chat to us and ensure we were being looked after.

[Pontius Navigator]

Goudie, with respect, he was Air Chief Marshal Sir ....

While working as Station Commander at RAF Syerston he rushed in a fire truck from the control tower to a taxiing Lancaster bomber when he saw it was on fire. He then tried to remove incendiary bombs from under the bomb bay in the hope that he could prevent a 4,000Ib bomb from exploding, but it detonated and he lost his right arm as a result.[3] Returning to active service with an artificial arm, he was referred to by personnel as the one-armed bandit.[4]

He was an old boy of my school. While I was in Nav Training the system matched that I was from his school when he, as AOCinC Flying Training Command, was to carry out the annual inspection old the school CCF. I was detailed as his ADC for the day. In fact I suspect that I was the reason he was asked to be the reviewing officer.

After the parade he invited me to join him at his hotel at Crummock Water and return in his helicopter the following day. Regretfully I declined as I had been ordered to RTB asap. In the event I would have got back quicker had I accepted.

I next met him about 1967 at Waddington when he flew in for some conference. My job that time was to get to his aircraft to collect his sword as his ADC that day had failed to pick them up.

But you are quite right, a Gent. ( He was at the 1 Gp Dining In Night with "We want Gus" ringing in his ears.

[Danny42C]

Pontius Navigator, (excerpt from my Post p.214 #4277 on the "Pilot's Brevet..." Thread) re "Gus" Walker:
...As to the rest, I agree every word. There was a heartwarming story, dating from before I got to Strubby, that a little lad of 9 or 10 had lost his right forearm in a tractor accident on some Lincolnshire farm. "Gus" made a point of visiting him in hospital as soon as he came round from surgery, ("Gus" wearing full kit and regalia), to have a chat and show the little chap that all was not lost - as he had suffered exactly the same injury...D.

Rings true to me. A fine gentleman (died in 1986) who will be long remembered.

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-
A fine gentleman (died in 1986) who will be long remembered.
...and a superb VSO. As Inspector General of the Royal Air Force he would fly to many far flung stations to carry out his duties. The flight gave him time to do his homework, as he and his ADC perused a rogues gallery of those known to him at the destination. As he walked through the ranks of the Guard of Honour he would stop in front of one and say something along the lines of, "I hope your driving has improved since you used to put the fear of God into me driving me around in Holland, Sgt Smith", or some such. Smith's chest swelled with pride, muttering some reassurance or other, and Gus moved on to accost yet another. A good man that man...

[Chugalug2]

PN:-
Oh Dear O-D, was Susanah York a squipper?

She certainly saluted like one, but there the resemblance ends as they say.

[Old-Duffer]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

Please can we agree that there is only one 'L' in Marshal, when used in the RAF rank context. Yes, I know about the 'll' but as a former squipper, I'm also de facto pedantic.

Unfortunately, I have no idea if Ms York was a squipper but on my squippers training course, was a fair and fragrant female who would run Ms York a close second. When last met, she was leaning over the balcony rail of the former ATC tower at Castle Coombe racing circuit, protected by a very possessive RN flying instructor. She left the RAF shortly afterwards so that she and Captain Hornblower could breed military policemen!

O-D

[goudie]

Goudie, with respect, he was Air Chief Marshal Sir ....


Of course PN and OD. Sloppy writing on my part, I'm afraid.

I do recall him arriving at Scampton in his Meteor, which he flew with a ball and socket attachment. He was also the only officer I ever saw, wearing a cloak!

[Tinribs]

He was certainly very polite when he threw me out of CFS on the first morning of the course. 1 hour 15 mins, still the record for the course I understand

[Pontius Navigator]

Tinribs, do tell.

[Dougie M]

One more on "Gus" Walker.
He was the reviewing officer on my graduation parade and I believe that we were the first to have brevets with Velcro patches rather than pins. Gus pressed the first brevet on and smoothed it with his remaining hand then when he saw it stuck he just plonked the rest on as he moved down the line.
A great bloke

[Raikum]

Gus Walker was great mates with my dad; both being huge rugby fans and Gus being a pre-war English rugby international. Anyway, me and my dad used to get invited once a year (this would be in the early 1970s) to Twickenham for the home international. These were far from sober affairs-I now realise I was there soley for driving duties and were often attended by some legendary characters such as Sir Geoffrey Tuttle-who was utterly charming to a callow, long-haired 18yr old, Douglas Bader-rather less so and Sir George Edwards of British Aerospace who organised the whole thing.

Anyway one year England were playing France and for my father, who was Welsh, it was crucial that France won as it mean, from memory that Wales would win the 5 nations. The French got the ball and raced for the line and my dad, unable to restrain himself leapt to his feet and shouted "Allez les Galles". This didn't go down at all well with Gus, who was sitting next to him, and we never got invited again! Later they both had a good laugh about it though. I remember Gus as a charming bundle of energy who was always interested in and had time for other people. A top man.

[mahogany bob]

I remember the inter Sqn chariot race at Waddington in the late 60s.
Our steed was an old fire appliance with huge metal wheels to which we attached a few swords for self defence!

The starter was the staish Des Hall - a tremendous man whose mode d'operation was to hold an open forum in the bar every weekday 6 to 7pm.

Unfortunately after our false start he was unable to get out of the way in time and was run over by our monster wheel!

He was rushed to Nocton with a badly bruised leg and the race continued.

To my knowledge he never complained.

[kintyred]

Please can we agree that there is only one 'L' in Marshal, when used in the RAF rank context. Yes, I know about the 'll' but as a former squipper, I'm also de facto pedantic.


Yes indeed, there's an 'L' of a difference!

[Tinribs]

The usual long story but basically in summer 69 SL Brian Jones. OC standards decided I was not suitable to be part of the most excellent order of QFI's. We had previous. He may have been right we shall never know now

[Pontius Navigator]

Tinribs, ah, been there. I had a welcome bollocking and last chance arrival interview at Nav School; I outlasted that OC. ***t

[Old-Duffer]

On the drift of bo?><&ings justified or not, I recall an incident in mid-1970s Uxbridge O/Mess - the weekday home of many an MOD type.

Picture; Elderly, but extremely fit and active wg cdr, ex-POW, snappy dresser, very much a 'lady's man, clipped 'tash et al.

Said officer finds his sleep disturbed by noisey juniors further down the corridor and after several nights of this decides enough is enough. Without further ado he encounters alleged culprit in the corridor and grabs him by the scruff of his collar, threatening GBH and worse. Young chap taken completely by surprise has just about enough breath to utter - 'wrong room - Sir'!

Abject apologies and copious compensation via the hop and grape ensue!

O-D

[Union Jack]

Pleased that Astir 8 had breathed new life into this very interesting and amusing thread, I decided to reread it from the start, only to come across the following comments about the VSO whose alleged “acceptance” of undue deference resulted in Warmtoast’s original post, extracted from others of the same nature at Onetrack’s Post # 26:

What would happen when this so called "man of leadership" was thrust into battle, and commenced to lose dramatically and be pummelled mercilessly by a ruthless enemy?

This officer sounds like he would have crumpled like a cardboard box under the pressure of a real conflict, and when nothing was going right for him.

Quite simply, for the edification of Onetrack, who to be fair may not have appreciated that it was not strictly Admiral Biggs who was at fault, and perhaps even Warmtoast, “what happened” when he met the “ruthless enemy”…..“under the pressure of a real conflict” was that, as Captain of the destroyer HMS HERO from March 1940 to March 1942, principally in numerous actions in the Mediterranean, he was awarded not one, but two DSOs, and subsequently an MID after commanding another destroyer, HMS ROTHERHAM, in 1944-45.

Perhaps not a very good dinghy sailor and, unlike Warmtoast, clearly quite content to remain a Wednesday racer without undue “promotion” to Saturdays, but certainly no “cardboard box”……:ok:

Jack

[Pontius Navigator]

Interesting how this thread is full of good guys and I wouldn't wish it otherwise, though I recall one NVSO on a course with a bunch of flt lt, when asked his what we should call him said Sir, and insisted, as a student, logging flight time as captain.

Back to the good guys, Air Cdr base commander was a stickler for mess rules. He was also vertically challenged. One night, at a beer call, come the witching hour of 7pm, came behind a very young Fg Off PN, took me by both elbows and lifted me up. "You and I Sir are incorrectly dressed, I suggest we rectify the matter."

Top bloke.

[Tinribs]

Pontious
You outlasted the chucker, I did not but I was told that on his last day in the RAF he did something naughty enough to get his dining out cancelled, true or not I cannot say

[BATCO]

I am told that when Flt Lt Eddie Cadogan was appointed as ADC to a VSO, the VSO's wife took him aside and said that he could address her as Lady 'vso'. Whereupon Eddie agreed but reminded her that would be happy to be introduced as Flight Lieutenant The Honourable Edward Cadogan*.

Cue slightly rouged cheeks from Mrs vso.

Batco
Apologies if the Chinese whisper phenomenon has corrupted that too much.

* Now Viscount Chelsea (ie "My Lord" when addressed)

[bspatz]

Re Bader and the equipment officer, my father who was at Duxford at the same time as Bader but on a different squadron, had trenchant views on the adverse impact that his commandeering of all the aircraft spares had on other units at Duxford. Whilst 242 Sqn benefited from his actions it was at the expense of other squadrons who did not get the same priority and suffered as a consequence.

[Pontius Navigator]

Tin Ribs, Base Commander was the clue. He was RAAF.

Now I knew two RAF Airfields commanded by Air Cdres, on one I knew one made ACM and the other MRAF, if I had to guess I think I would settle for BZN?