why aren't Motor Gliders more popular?

[cockney steve]

i posted the above on the "Gliding" thread started by Roooooob....but no replies.
I understand there's a weight-penalty, but the absence of tow-costs for a SLMG and the "get-home" ability conferred when you run out of lift away from home-base, seem pretty compelling plusses.

Is there a lot of red-tape and restrictions that reduce their viability?

I much prefer Sailing to power-craft, but an auxiliary "donk" is a handy asset. I have always fancied gliding, but not the committed to land bit.

[x933]

Most common reasons:

1. Most of them are "compromise" aircraft - The high performance motorgliders (Stemme S10, ASH25Mi) make crap tourers (too big, crap baggage bay), in addition to being a bit large (Stemme is 25m with a comparatively narrow track undercarriage, which makes it a bit tricky unless you have plenty of space). Similarly a cheapo SF25/Falke/Venture has the glide performance of a K13 but under power cruises at 60kts, and after about an hour becomes bottom-numbingly uncomfortable unless you fit the seats exactly. The best "compromise" is probably a Grob 109B, of which a good one might make 30ish:1 on the glide and a 90kt cruise. Folding wings make it easier to store, but for the money there's other more sensible options. Plus they're heavy to fly.

2. Invariably they're a pain to ground handle on your own - if you don't have a hangar or leave it rigged you need at least one other person to help rig, possibly two depending on the aircraft. I can pull my Europa out of the hangar on my own and be gone in 20min. Single seaters highlight this point - unless left outdoors, which generally isn't good for the finish, still need one or two people to help rig.

There are advantages - it is undeniably cheaper to hire a motorglider than a standard SEP, and with a TMG endorsement you can use the TMG time to keep an SEP current. It's horses for courses really.

[FullWings]

They are more expensive, complicated to operate and maintain than a pure sailplane, plus some require extra licensing.

That said, they generally see better utilisation, more so the self-launchers, and the gap between the cost of a new glider and one with an engine is narrowing in percentage terms. Motors, turbos, jets, electric self-launch and sustainers are all becoming more popular.

Historically, there has been some reluctance to go down the propulsive route in the UK, partly for "purity" reasons. That seems to be going away now as people experience the advantages, especially with self-launching.

To answer the original question, they are getting more widespread, in fact all the new gliders I've seen arriving this year have had some sort of power unit. The manufacturers hardly make any without, these days...

[dash6]

All good stuff,but what ratings are required? EASA glider pilot licence? PPL? Can I use one on an SEP Rating? Why is it all so complicated,it's a light aircraft,isn't it?

[FullWings]

I think you might need a licence for this (http://windward-performance.com/jethawk/).

[glider12000]

A couple of friends have the jet sharks..Shark SJ + MS - HpH Sailplanes Sole UK Agency (http://www.hphuk.co.uk/5.html)

[RatherBeFlying]

As you can see from previous posts, there are MGs, TMGs, SLMGs and Turbos. Turbo applied to a glider is enough power to get back home, but not self launch.

One difficulty with all these motorised types is that the airframe can outlast the engine production line.

There are a number of Rotax engines in gliders that are no longer in production. I'm not picking on Rotax; it's just that I know of a few engine models they no longer produce.

The machinists can make up some bits and pieces.

Carburetors and ignition modules come from other small manufacturers who may or may not remain in business or keep the part in production.

A friend recently bought an Apis M with a Rotax 447 that is out of production. I have advised him to buy a spare engine along with the bits and pieces that might go out of production while these items remain procurable. When the time comes to sell, a spare part stock will substantially increase the resale value.

[AlexUM]

Glider pilot here. Another aspect I would like to add is lack of consistent engine running. Motor gliders tend to have very irregular engine running times, in my experience, making them more susceptible to failure in a critical moment. The engine is typically used only when weather is not good enough to get you home and then it is required to start up and deliver full power immediately.

Yes I know, bad flight planning and correct maintenance (run the engine) is always key...

Just my 2 cents :)

[Arclite01]

copy of a post I made on 9th April:

'For me it's always been motorgliders.

I love being able to soar with the engine off, enjoy being able to investigate areas where the soaring conditions look interesting (but normally are out of gliding range) and I certainly enjoy not sitting in the launch queue..............

I fly an SF-28A Tandem Falke. Not sparkling performance (28:1 with the prop fully feathered) but up there with the K13 which is perfectly adequate for the type of local soaring I like to do. Fuel burn is around 2.5 galls per hour - she'll cruise under power at 85Kts (variable pitch prop)............ and as a two seater, nice and sociable.............. On good days I range from North Norfolk down to South Essex and across to Bedford and back again.

Bad Days become average days, Average days become good days and good days become stonking days........

What not to like...........'

I do agree with some points other people are making though - particularly WRT to ageing airframes and engines - getting spares is getting harder and harder for some types. It's an area EASA fails to consider - when we run out of spares as long as there is a Type Certificate holder (not 'Orphaned') such as Scheibe for my Falke I can't do anything with regard to non-styandard repairs. The Certificate owner is not obliged to produce parts for me (they still do but at an exorbitant cost for 'one offs'). A move to permit for some types would help a lot.

Licencing is complicated - I have EASA JAA TMG, an NPPL SLMG and fairly soon an EASA Sport Pilot Licence I expect as well as an FAA PPL (Glider) - the FAA system is by far the simplest with a Glider Pilot rating on the FAA Licence and a differences check to allow the use of a Motor Glider. EASA could learn from that.........

Categories of Motorglider are way too complex - SLMG, Self Launch, TMG, Self Sustain etc........... really there should be just a rating for 'Motorglider', in the old days you could just fly a Motorglider on a CAA PPL - much simpler

But for me I don't understand why they aren't more popular - Just my 2pennyworth.........

Arc

[Prop swinger]

Licencing is complicated - I have EASA JAA TMG, an NPPL SLMG and fairly soon an EASA Sport Pilot Licence I expect as well as an FAA PPL (Glider) - the FAA system is by far the simplest with a Glider Pilot rating on the FAA Licence and a differences check to allow the use of a Motor Glider. EASA could learn from that.........

Categories of Motorglider are way too complex - SLMG, Self Launch, TMG, Self Sustain etc........... really there should be just a rating for 'Motorglider', in the old days you could just fly a Motorglider on a CAA PPL - much simplerPiffle. There is just one category of motorglider - TMG - and you can fly it on a PPL.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that my main reasons for not flying MGs are:-

(1) Lack of opportunities to do so
(2) They don't like short runways, which is somewhat limiting.

I agree that a single motorglider rating would be better than the (apparent) current approach - and realistically it should be just differences training on SSEA or SEP: maybe a bit more training and a skill test for glider or microlight pilots.

G

[Arclite01]

Sorry Propswinger.

You are wrong.

Arc

[Prop swinger]

No, I am right.

99.99% of what the CAA used to call SLMGs in the UK & Europe are EASA aircraft & fall under EASA's rules. The CAA's nomenclature is redundant. If it has a non-retractable engine & a non-retractable propellor it is a TMG, everything else is a glider / sailplane.

You can fly your Falke on your EASA TMG, you do not need an NPPL(SLMG) & there ain't no such thing as an EASA Sport Pilot Licence so you won't need one of them.

I agree that a single motorglider rating would be better than the (apparent) current approach - and realistically it should be just differences training on SSEA or SEP: maybe a bit more training and a skill test for glider or microlight pilots.The old / current rules are minimal training + check flight to fly TMGs on a PPL(SEP), or skills test if you actually want TMG hours to count towards SEP revalidation. New / EASA rules are minimal training + skills test to add TMG to LAPL(A), PPL(A), LAPL(S) or SPL. I don't see what is so complicated.

[cockney steve]

Well, what a response! thanks, all.
some of the "new" prices .....NO! all of them, are in "lottery-winner" territory, as far as I'm concerned.

The spares situation with older aircraft, is something I really hadn't thought about....I read of "difficulties" but even the most arcane stuff seems to be procurable ( thinking of the wonderful Pobjoy-powered self-build nearing completion) I think that the relatively small quantity of motor-gliders, coupled with the fragmented power-unit market, will, indeed, present challenges in the future......Type -certificate-holders using it as a "ransom-note" is a problem the authorities should address ( Though many people are under a false impression of how much is involved in "one-off" production.

As an aside, a model-engineer scratch-built 6 traction engines....he reckoned it took less than twice the time of making a single one.

Ghengis , as usual, makes an astute observation.....RUNWAY-LENGTH

pretty obvious, I suppose, low-drag airframe and high L/D ratio would infer a long landing-distance (how do airbrakes/spoilers affect this? )

I'd assume takeoff is somewhat protracted on grass, due to low engine-power and ground-drag.

Arclite really had me thinking " that is affordable, fun flying.

*breaks open mattress and starts counting*;)

[GliderGuider]

Interesting comment x933 makes that a Stemme S10 is a "crap tourer".
I know of someone who flew one from the UK to New Zealand.
They've got about 10 hour endurance.
Doesn't seem "crap" to me!

[gasax]

That is until you turn up at the average GA airfield - and find you cannot get between the markers, cannot turn around, simply do not fit!

We have a Taifun at my field, needs three people to unfold it - I refer to it as a Perodactyl. One person cannot actually move it when in the hangar. Virtually needs a gale or the curvature of the earth to get airborne. Lovely when flying and murderous on maintenance and care when not.

We also have a Grob - which is much more practical - buit still needs a fair amount of space and has an engine which seems quite frail. Endurance is certainly not everything.

[GliderGuider]

All aircraft are a compromise but to say an S10 is a crap tourer because it's got big wings and small baggage load is just picking on two of its aspects.

I own a Grob 109 and I regularly tour in it to the continent. Southern France, over the Pyrenees into Spain, South Germany etc etc. Recently spent 2 weeks in the French Alps. It is heavy and does have limitations getting out of short fields but it makes a fantastic tourer. Less than 15 litres and hour at 85-90 knots, comfortable, fantastic visibility, very stable and very cheap to operate compared to a standard SEP. And I know which I'd rather be in if the engine quit.

[x933]

A 25m wingspan and narrow track undercarriage mean you have to pick your landing airfields a little bit more carefully. Crap is a little harsh I agree, but if I wanted a motor glider for touring i'd be looking for a Dimona or G109B.

That said, There was an article in S&G many eons ago about a pair of DG400's that went touring into Europe from the UK. Anything is possible with a little creative packing...

[DeltaV]

...They don't like short runways, which is somewhat limiting.
Depends on the motor glider. This is comfortably into and out of a 320m microlight strip.
Short-stripping a Fournier RF3 - YouTube

[kestrel539]

GliderGuider,
Check your pm's

[Arclite01]

I operate the Tandem Falke comfortably from 250m of Tarmac in 5 knots. Clear approaches both ends though............

The big wings are a bit of a pain ground handling and on small manoeuvering spaces but you learn to live with it. The turning circle is not the best but you learn to live with it................the extended climb rate (400ft/min) is not the best but you learn to live with it...............the fuel burn is 2.5 gallons an hour but you learn to live with it..................:}

WRT to comments on touring I agree with the comments about the S-10 but you don't really buy something like that to go 'touring' in the conventional sense. You 'tour' other glider sites where you fit in the traffic patterns and airfield movements with minimal problems. If I had £100K and plenty of time to use it I'd buy one tomorrow.............

Arc

[aviate1138]

A Stomme with a difference......

Not so elegant as the normal S-10

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/ScreenShot2013-11-13at085938_zpse38d5e96.png (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/aviate1138/media/ScreenShot2013-11-13at085938_zpse38d5e96.png.html)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Why does looking at that picture cause me to start uncontrollably humming the theme from Thunderbirds?

G

[Arclite01]

Don't understand the point of that S-10..........other than as some sort of research ship............

Arc

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm sure that' s exactly what it is.

G

[cockney steve]

no, 'tis a mobile snack-bar....one appendage for slicing boiled-eggs, sandwiches for the use of,,,,,,,the other for making chips(second pass needed to convert slices to sticks).


I'm fascinated by the links and pix....several look like a normal (gp A ? ) aircraft with a slightly larger wingspan, others are very definitely the archetypal sailplane with the enormousbendy wingspan (LAK, in particular)

Am I right in assuming all these Motor Gliders require the pilot to hold a full PPL with (AIUI) a TMG endorsement?
I believe the easiest licence to obtain is a pure gliding license, then comes Microlight, followed by SEP ???

[chrisN]

No, not all. Lak FES is a sustainer and needs no licence but gliding qualification/approval in the UK (pre EASA, and within the BGA), or even no qualification at all (outside the BGA), or a sailplane pilots licence (Post EASA). We are in a transition period until April 2015, when the latter will apply.

One Lak FES ( effectively a prototype for the modification) was developed to have self launching capability, but AFAIK one cannot buy one. If one could, it would be like other self-launching sailplanes (not TMG) and would need a licence. An ordinary PPL will not do – these are too different from normal GA types or TMG’s. I am not expert enough to say what will happen post EASA/April 2015t, but I expect somebody will explain.

Chris N

[Arclite01]

In Europe

You can hold an NPPL SLMG (not technically a 'full' SSEA PPL) or a JAR PPL with a TMG rating (a full PPL). A Glider licence on its own is not sufficient to fly an SLMG or TMG.

My earlier post refers regarding what I believe is easiest system for Gllider Pilots requiring to fly any glider with an engine - the FAA system in the US.

Arc

[Arclite01]

My personal favourite at the moment is the ASK-21Mi if I win the lottery.........or maybe the ASH-25e...........

Arc

[IFMU]

Any motorglider I could afford (if I stretched my finances) is probably not going to soar any better than a Schweizer 2-33. Any motorglider that soars as well as my old 1-35C is way out of my price range.
Bryan

[Arclite01]

Bryan $17,000 - $20,000 US will get you a Tandem Falke :)

Hours of fun for all the family........ (well me anyway)

Arc

[PaulisHome]

If one could, it would be like other self-launching sailplanes (not TMG) and would need a licence. An ordinary PPL will not do – these are too different from normal GA types or TMG’s. I am not expert enough to say what will happen post EASA/April 2015t, but I expect somebody will explain.

I think this might actually be an area where EASA will simplify things a bit.

To fly a glider, you will need an Sailplane license (SPL) or Light Aircraft Pilot's Licence (Sailplanes) (LAPL(S)). They are pretty much the same, except for the medical requirements.

You also need to be trained in (and signed off by an instructor if you add it later) for the launch method - winch, aerotow, bungee or, (in the case being considered), Self Launch.

To fly TMGs, you need to add a TMG rating to the SPL or LAPL(S). You will also be able to add a TMG rating to a PPL or LAPL(A). So glider pilots will more easily be able to fly TMGs than they can now.

Paul

[Arclite01]

If you can find a TMG examiner.

They appear to be a rare breed in the UK...........

Arc

[A and C]

It's not so much the technical issues that put me off motor gliders but the fact that I would most likely have to keep it at a gliding club.

I can't be doing with the endless politics, back biting and ridged inforcment of petty rules that a small minority of people who don't do much flying seem to impose on gliding clubs.......... All I can say is the majority of glider pilots must really like gliding a lot to put up with all the rubbish that is involved with gliding club membership !

[Arclite01]

and the Motorglider exempts me from all of that old cobblers.

Arc:}

[Prop swinger]

A Glider licence on its own is not sufficient to fly an SLMG or TMG.No, you can fly some of the aircraft that the CAA used to refer to as SLMG on a sailplane licence.
My earlier post refers regarding what I believe is easiest system for Gllider Pilots requiring to fly any glider with an engine - the FAA system in the USThe only remotely difficult part of the old system for BGA glider pilots was the requirement to actually hold a licence to put the rating on. The training & testing was pifflingly simple but the newly qualified pilot now had to apply for a licence. Under the FAA & now EASA systems, this piece of bureaucracy is pre-done in that you need a licence just to be a pilot.
My personal favourite at the moment is the ASK-21Mi if I win the lottery.........or maybe the ASH-25e...........Neither of which are TMGs. You don't need a TMG rating to fly either & once EASA rules become compulsory your TMG rating will not entitle you to fly them. (Sidenote: using an ASH-25e for the type of local soaring you like to do is a bit like using a McClaren P1 to pop down to the shops.)
If you can find a TMG examiner.Not a problem. All the NPPL(SLMG) instructors & examiners will transition with TMG instructor & examiner privileges on their sailplane licences. It will be a lot easier to get & maintain TMG rights on a sailplane licence than on an aeroplane licence. If your PPL(A) has an SEP rating on it you can do your biennial instructor flight in a SEP & revalidate the TMG as well, if it's a TMG only licence you will need to find a PPL(A) instructor with a TMG instructor's rating.

[chevvron]

I used to own and fly a Monnet Moni homebuilt single seat motor glider. Although it was no problem taking off (provided you remembered not to over rotate; engine was 300cc and about 30hp), landing was a bit critical as you had to 'fly' it on with no flare; if you flared, the lift decayed so quickly you would suddenly drop onto the runway and bounce! Stopping it on 800m was sometimes a bit marginal as it only had a wheel brake on the nosewheel, and that was just a hardened pad which rubbed against the tyre. The wheels were too small for it to be used on grass.
Only problem was, once you got airborne, with a sailplane like reclined seat, it would have been easy to relax and fall asleep!!

[rateone]

That is until you turn up at the average GA airfield - and find you cannot
get between the markers, cannot turn around, simply do not fit!

We have a Taifun at my field, needs three people to unfold it - I refer to it as a
Perodactyl. One person cannot actually move it when in the hangar. Virtually
needs a gale or the curvature of the earth to get airborne. Lovely when flying
and murderous on maintenance and care when not.

We also have a Grob -
which is much more practical - buit still needs a fair amount of space and has
an engine which seems quite frail. Endurance is certainly not everything.


I think you are being a little unfair Gasax. Having owned both, I think that the Taifun is the nicer aircraft and that (if both were left rigged) a Taifun is probably more practical than a Grob 109, being faster for the same fuel burn. T/O and Ldng distance for the two aircraft are about the same.

However, you are right in much of what you say.The Taifun will cruise at over 100kts burning less than 15 ltrs/hr for well over 600nm but with a low power to weight ratio take off and climb performance is not stellar - although this can be remedied by fitting an uprated engine/prop. I like the Taifun but I have to agree that it is now outclassed in performance by many of the modern generation of LAA aircraft.

TMGs all have the same problem in that by definition the wings are big (a Taifun is 17m span). As you say this is often a challenge at GA fields where marker boards can be awkward. It is also a problem in terms of hangar space. The Taifun wings fold back which cuts down on space but as you say is a pain to rig for an hour's flying. I think you will find that the Grob is just as bad if not worse.

Added to that is maintenance charges. While LAA owners can do their own thing, TMGs with a type certificate holder fall under the EASA banner. This is eased somewhat by having the BGA act as a CAMO but it still means compliance with all the EASA bulls**t.

This isn't to say the motor gliders don't have a role - the new generation of powered sailplanes are fantastic pieces of kit for exploring soaring possibilities - not great for touring though.

It comes back to the old chestnut - decide what mission capability you need and choose the best aircraft to fulfil it.

[Jim59]

If you can find a TMG examiner.

They appear to be a rare breed in the UK...........

Arc

There is a list on the BGA web site.

[Arclite01]

Hi Jim

Can you post a link ??

I'm not sure how comprehensive the old list was................

Thanks

Arc

[chrisN]

Arc, see list at the bottom of this page – do these include what you want?

British Gliding Association >> Instructors >> Motor Gliding - Instructing & Examining (http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/instructors/motorgliding.htm)

(I decided to try to find it myself for future reference.)

Chris N

[172510]

Gliding clubs don't operate as most flight schools do. You're not a client paying for a service in a Gliding club, you have to be there early in the morning, you have to give a hand, you can even be expected to volunteer for secretarial tasks, IT, etc.
The main advantage of a motorglider, compared to a glider, is that you can operate it on your own, just like a 172. It's a selfish aircraft compared to a glider, and selfish flying is not what soaring clubs do.
Most motorgliders are operated by gliding clubs, that's why it does not work.
When I email a flight school to get a trial lesson, on Microlight, tailwheel, or whatever, I get an answer right away. The people at the flight schools welcome business.
Gliding clubs are not looking for business:
- Booker doesn't train for TMG rating, although they operate a TMG;
- Oxfordshire Sportflying at Enstone Aerodrome never returned my Emails;
- Lasham don't operate their TMG until next year;
etc.
You just can't get a TMG rating as easily as a SEP rating, because people who operate TMG's don't operate as flight schools do.

And yet TMG's are a lot of fun compared to a SEP: when the air is unstable, instead of an uncomfortable flight in a 172, go soaring in a TMG. I still don't understand why flight schools don't operate TMG's together with SEP

[Arclite01]

For all the reasons listed above in the thread.

But in summary IMHO:


They are not really compatable with shorter winged SEP types for ground handling
also they are mostly low wing/mid wing whereas many SEP are high wing and not easy to hangar together
many SEP live outside year round due to hangarage constraints/costs whereas many TMG are not suited to that regime due to construction materials
The TMG often operates a different circuit pattern that doesn't always fit with conventional SEP operations
The type of flying TMG does is often different from SEP and can require a different mindset/skillset from SEP - sometimes different instructional skills can be required too..........
Not sure if the market for TMG is big enough for schools to invest in something that that may not get the usage that the rest of the SEP fleet is getting...........or requires to make the cost model pay

Just my twopennyworth.........
Arc

[Prop swinger]

stuffWhere do people come up with this drivel? Gliding clubs don't accept walk-in bookings as that would be commercial aviation. You need to be a member (or guest) to fly at a gliding club.

The reason gliding clubs don't do TMG training is that the majority don't have TMG instructors or examiners. Simple as that. Several clubs do SLMG training &, in my experience, you book your time, with/without an instructor, turn up, fly & go home if you want - ie exactly the same as any power school.

Booker don't have TMG instructors, Lasham do have a TMG examiner but their TMG is in for maintenance for the rest of the year, Oxfordshire Sportflying are a CAA RTF/ATO (although a member of the BGA they're not a typical club.)

TMGs are not popular because they are bad SEPs & bad gliders. If it's soarable I would rather be in a decent glider, if it's not soarable I would rather fly something faster/more interesting than a TMG.

[Arclite01]

I like the compromise and am prepared to accept it for what it is - fun, cheap (relatively) flying/gliding.

Not for the purist I agree - but at this moment in time I have more life critical stuff to do than hang around the launch point all day waiting for 3 x 5 minute circuits or 1 x 20 minute tow. I think you would find there are many people with busy lives (kid demands !!) who feel similarly..........that has always been the issue with Gliding and is the reason why the Gliding Clubs have launch points populated with under 25's and over 55's - they have the time and the money (the over 25's - under 55's just don't). This is however a different issue and is somewhat off the track of the thread.

For me there is also the issue of currency - 3 x 5 minute winch launches every 2 - 3 weeks depending on the weather is not the best currency ratio, 1 hour once a week in the TMG is much better or 1 hour in a decent representative SLMG is even better.......... That's all.

It's horses for courses - this horse has chosen his course............:O

Arc

[Heston]

For me there is also the issue of currency - 3 x 5 minute winch launches
every 2 - 3 weeks depending on the weather is not the best currency ratio, 1
hour once a week in the TMG is much better or 1 hour in a decent representative
SLMG is even better....



Hmmm not sure about that.. Three winch launches and landings make you safer than one take off and landing in a SLMG IMHO.

But I agree that a good SLMG is probably the best all round flying compromise there is for folk who just want to fly for the fun of it.

[Arclite01]

In the TMG I can do 8 - 10 circuits and landings in a hour, simulate a range of circuit scenarios, or do 1 hour cross country or a mix..............or investigate that Cu just outside gliding range, or climb to the wave bar that is only useable above 3000 feet 5 miles downwind :}

I still enjoy pure gliding if I get the chance though..............


Arc

[Heston]

In the TMG I can do 8 - 10 circuits and landings in a hour, simulate a range
of circuit scenarios


:D Oh yes of course (silly me), good! And in fact gliding clubs with a TMG often use it for intensive circuit practice for students who are learning to land - for just that reason...

[Arclite01]

Yep

I think Derek Piggott & Anne Welch cracked that years ago.

It's (the Motorglider) not a replacement for Gliding or Glider Training or Soaring practice or X-Country practice - It's a complimentary tool that can allow you to maximise use of time & conditions and improve your abilities and technique by exposure to a range of situations.

Thanks everyone who has contributed to this thread.

Arc

[kevkdg]

York Gliding Centre offers an-initio ppl or nppl training in their tmg and have one instructor and one examiner on their books and their own slingsby t61f venture.

Also, York flying school at breighton have tmg rated instructors and examiner.

[2hotwot]

What aeroplane can you:

Tow a glider
retract the tow rope
switch the engine off and go gliding

It handles better than most SEPs
out-climbs many SEPs (most without the glider and some with)
has a VP prop
folding wings
and is a turbocharged
taildragger
with airbrakes

Never rubbish the Super Dimona :=

[Flying_Anorak]

As a long term (25 year +) glider pilot / instructor who relatively recently has got himself an NPPL SSEA & SLMG I do feel reasonably qualified to comment on this thread.

I have a share in a G109B and I also have access to a Club's Super Dimona plus the usual PA28s. Of all of them I have to say that the G109B is the nicest to fly - it is comfortable, has a wide cockpit and perhaps most importantly at circa £50 per hour and 90kt cruise it is affordable. This year it has taken me far and wide, including to the Alps and Cannes and back. This is not something I could have afforded to do in an SSEA with the typical operating costs they bring!

Yes ground handling a tail dragger aircraft with a wing span only 9' less than a B25 Mitchell can be challenging, but hopefully it will make me a better pilot as a result. On a good soaring day I'll fly my flapped 15m glider, but on all other days I'll fly my G109 as its low cost means I can just afford to fly for fun, not something I can really justify @ £150hr +.

That said, I wouldn't mind a cheap share in a Cub or a Chippie if anyone knows of one....

[rob-bob]

Glider-Guider,
Yes, I too had a chuckle about the 'crap tourer' comment re: an S-10, The bloke flying to NZ was an epic, how about Klaus Ohlmann's latest
adventure, to study wave flight in the Himalayas
Flying Germany to Kathmandu in something with a 50:1 glide and then using it for 'pure' gliding around Everest, seems to be a good
'compromise' craft

Follow the expedition of Klaus Ohlmann to Nepal. - Quo Vadis International (http://www.quovadis-aero.com/?codepage=greenflight)
Yes, I know the bloke is relatively extreme, but personally I cannot wait for next year, to get to his school in the Alps, for a few weeks.

As it is my ambition to own one, because as has been alluded to here and debated fiercely on uras

"Love gliding, but loath gliding clubs"

caveat : I enjoy the socialising, have done all the hard yards, would love to still be able to contribute, but love the feeling of independence