Do the current generation of Senior FAA Officers lack something?

[Hangarshuffle]

I was thinking how to start this thread, and thought of that question and wonder now is it relevant or correct?
Recently a colleague (and I admit comrade and friend) left the FAA after something like 36, 37 odd years service ( I cant exactly recall the number shame on me in a way, but its a long time). He left as a Warrant Officer, and had (I think) a pretty fantastic service record. He was the holder of the South Atlantic medal (among many others), which he modestly wore when required, but rarely mentioned it, even though he was at the sharper end of things then (for our branch).
I will cut to the quick. A very humble leaving do was organised. He had already been formally dined out with another great bloke, last year in the mess at Culdrose. But funnily as circumstance arises he had then been asked to stay on a bit and see things through for a while (which he did).
So a do, down in one of the pubs in Helston. Its humble, it's an all ranks + all rates quiet chance to say thank-you and goodbye. its an open door for anyone with a link or connection - its not a rave, its not formal. In a decent British pub for a beer and a pastie.

Well you know what's coming. I have learnt not a single officer attended. Not one.

Now this chap would be embarrassed or even I risk anger from him for even to dare to mention this on the internet, because he is a decent honest man who would not wish it, but I'm just me, and Im going to, anyway.

I state that an officer should attend such an event. In these circumstances, somebody should have attended from the wardroom at Culdrose.
You can work down, or you can work up. The Commodore or Captain, Commander Air, the CO of the unit, or the 1st Lt. The unit Exec.


Alternately go up. Any of the above, bone someone off to show their face.

But for Gods sake, in these times, at these sort of events, show a face.

The FAA is in crisis. It is fast disappearing. Its CVF project is in crisis (again). It is under tremendous pressure, its lost men women and material at an alarming rate. It could go under. On your watch.

You, as senior officers need to reconnect with the men who are doing their long and short duties. The humble men and women.
I say,you are lacking something. I have watched you all from up close and now from afar and you are lacking.Be it class, be it ethos, be it empathy, be it leadership, be it confidence, but you are lacking something and you need to raise your game, at Culdrose, and probably elsewhere,quickly.

And finally if you have to ask why an officer should have attended such an event, well you should not be in the job at all.
Goodnight all, and good luck Tam.

[Sandy Parts]

sadly not confined to the Senior Service. A few long-serving stalwarts and all round good eggs came to the end of their career in light blue at ISK around the time of the station closure. Unfortunately, at the subsequent 'dining-out' they barely received a mention (some not even that). 'Not enough time' at the event was the excuse. I'd rather have heard a heartfelt 'cheerio' to them than the waffle that we had to endure instead. Shame, but I guess that is the nature of the MBA schooled beast these days.

[Once A Brat]

Agree with your sentiment completely...I always saw it as my duty to attend functions for those, under my command or that I knew, leaving the service, especially after such a long career........I even stayed late at many functions of those I liked. The point being I attended!

Question now is: Did anybody invite any Officers? Were they made aware of the event? I was quite often, especially as a JO, taken to one side by one of the seniors, informed of when and where the function was and that I was expected to attend; 99times out of a 100 I already knew and had made plans to attend anyway. Did this happen? If not, then I suggest that perhaps it is not just the current generation of senior FAA Officers that are lacking something, but the current generation of FAA senior rates as well.

Either way a sad indictment on the modern military (and yes, I know we are referring to WAFUs, but I'll use the term anyaway :E)

[AutoBit]

On the face of it this may appear a bit disappointing, but before you go and berate individual officers on a public forum there needs to be a bit more fact.

By your own words a 'very humble' leaving doo was organised. Were the Capt or Wings specifically invited? If not you can hardly expect the CO to hear a rumour that WO ABC is having a few drinks in town tonight, and then just rock up. Likewise for Wings. Remember the CO cant even go into the Wardroom without an invite, so he's unlikely to just turn up to the pub unless he has been asked. What if said WO didn't want the CO there?

Now his immediate Boss should have gone, or sent a rep I concede. However I suspect this is a failing or oversight of one individual officer, rather the the whole leadership of the FAA (of whom I am not one before you ask!!).

[Pheasant]

I reckon Hangar has got it completely wrong. I know for certain that if the CO Culdrose was invited he would have gone along. I suspect other seniors would too. Same is true for Yeovilton, whatever the unit.

In my humble view we have some of the best FAA seniors the RN has ever had. The skill and mental dexterity witnessed over the past few years in fighting off the attempt by the RAF to dismantle the FAA speaks volumes of ability and morale. And why should morale be low? The FAA is being re-capitalised across every fleet, the future is very bright and the conditions of service are probably better than ever.

Both Culdrose and Yeovilton are having millions of £ in infrastructure funding such that they will be among the best founded establishments in Defence.

Rant over!

[Avtur]

"Both Culdrose and Yeovilton are having millions of £ in infrastructure funding."

So they will be closing soon then?

[Flypro]

Avtur,

No, it means they are going to the RAF!!

Brawdy.....Lossiemouth......etc etc

[Squirrel 41]

Banter Mode: ON

In reply to the OP's question....

Do the current generation of Senior FAA Officers lack something?

Err, an aircraft carrier and a fixed wing capability? :E

Banter Mode: OFF

S41

[Hangarshuffle]

Autobit - Yes they would have known. Yes they should have known anyway. Its a small service. A small family. My opinion is at these sort of events, if there is nothing in it for them, they will not attend. To me, they way I was brought up, they way it was-this is a very bad sign.
Shows a lack of something. It was my close observation of many of them when I was serving there. Thankfully I no longer am.

[Hangarshuffle]

In my reply to pheasent-Sorry mate, not my worms eye view at all. The ethos is failing at a SO level. In fact, its going to be a disaster in future ifsome of them continue as they are (declining in man management and signs of empathy...I could bore on, not going to).
My observation is that many have become aloof and distant and very happy to be so. I was unfortunate to serve under several of the previous COs of RNAS XXXX in the last X years and I had the chance to sit and be amongst one or two of them as it were, and I was not impressed at all. One of these was at a so called top table. Not going to go deeply into that on here.
I got the impression of someone hiding behind their rank and using the gold as a little shield. Hard at that event not to get the impression of someone with self obsession and a very superficial interest in "lower people'-perhaps thats how one gets to the top?

29 years ago at Culdrose we had a Captain who actually wait for it-dined occasionally with the troops. Would pitch up,in the JR DH, wait in the queue, have a meal. All unannounced of course and on his own.
Testing the system. Seeing how his supply system was working. Showing himself. Watching and listening.Engaging occasionally but I got the impression he was all senses on the go, and wanted to know what the lads were doing, thinking, behaving, judging morale, looking at dress code, listening to language.
Real on the ball bloke.

Oh for that now.I'm not anti RN SO, very far from it - just Ive begun to despair of some of the antics I hear about (and witnessed)in recent years.

[Hangarshuffle]

To squirrel 41 banter on too!! Thats funny! A CVF, planes, money.......pocket money?
Maybe they just dont actually drink beer anymore, FAA officers with anything other than their own rank? Got to admit, I saw Cdr Air of HMS begins with I walking past the Angry Friar on his own one day wearing pink corduroys and an open necked shirt....much to the laughing stock of his own Division who were camped on the chairs for the afternoon. He made no attempt to join, speak, engage in small talk. He wasnt missed. Its very sad at times.

[Pheasant]

Hangar,

Clearly your experience and mine are very different as I do not see that view from my end of the telescope. My experience is that there is an increasing narrowing of the background between upper and lower deck and an increasing willingness to mix it when ashore.

I simply do not recognise your statement re "unless there is something in it for him...".

There will always be the odd cold fish, but this happens at all levels not just at the top of the shop.

[MaroonMan4]

Squirrel,

Very good indeed-made I chuckle!

In all serious though, without getting into debate on Carriers, Harriers, and any other subject opined ad finitum on this forum then from my shop floor experience I reckon that the senior bods in the FAA have done a pretty good job in ensuring that they are relevant and capable for the future given the tremendous pressures from politicians and MoD.

The FAA is so small it could easily have been deemed by those that wanted to save a quick short time buck or make political gain to absorb (disband) the FAA into a pseudo purple organisation (probably run by us the very top - i.e. a 3 star above the HQ Army budgeted JHC rotational 2 star). And guess what, it wouldn't have been long before the AAC would have gone the same way if the FAA had been disbanded or nibbled away at (Joint Force Merlin, Joint Force ISTAR etc etc.....certainly not safety or capability driven I would suggest).

Whether the Army like it or not, 'their' 10 years land locked enduring conflict scenario has increasingly less appetite from public and fickle politician alike, and contingent, flexible, 'just enough, just in time' is more than likely the way forward.

If that is the flexible capability that the nation wants, then it will cost more than having a BAOR/RAFG standing force, or modern equivalent.

Sadly the whole experience of the Commando Helicopter Force transition from the old lift limited Sea Queen to Merlin highlighted just how devious and machevellian our air ships and blimps could be, rather than honestly at least informing our guys at the sharp end of what was going on. It appeared that the RN was expending a significant amount of wasted energy unnecessarily fighting our hierarchy, in what had already been both a political and high level executive military decision, rather than the RN just getting on with it, fully supported, communicated and importantly strongly led by our senior officers.

Apparently that week at Benson when the first course of RN aircrew had the station and families in shock and took a bit of time for it all to sink in and every as they seemed extremely well briefed with backed up fact from their hierarchy.

Yes, I do think that the FAA has some strong capable leaders (isnt the First Sea Lord ex FAA aircrew - maybe a nav/WSOp?). I respect what the RN hierarchy are trying to do when already the Army are allegedly now sniping at Carriers and beginning their spin campaign, when actually we as a nation should be looking strategically and not going for a short term land grab, fearful of single Service budget cuts just around the corner in SDSR 15.

As to not going to Squadron/leaving social functions - hmmm, I am extremely surprised that any RN officer doesn't use an invite as an excuse to imbibe and tell (very dull) salty sea dits, followed by either getting naked or into female dresses, trying to chat up the oldest/ugliest woman at the venue or singing very old songs that don't make sense today!

But they do make me laugh as a quirky bunch, but don't leave me on a boat with them too long!

Maybe their absence from social functions is endemic of all of the redundancies and transformation that are now taking their toll, and just like our senior officers they are working extremely (long gone are the days of blunts mahogany bomber staff officers shuffling nugatory papers until its time to go home I believe....but I admit I still see the odd random waste of paper that just creates extra effort for all).

As we are all experiencing despite the number of personnel being reduced and leaving, there have not been the promised cheaper RAFA/FTRS back fill, and yet it is no surprise that the staff workload has not reduced at all......classic case of implementing something before assessing that the future/contingency plan is in place to take up the slack.

Which is why I stayed where I did and shortly it will be be all history for me ;)

[Hangarshuffle]

Pheasent-sorry we have to agree to disagree. I found at CU very much the fact I simply could not stand quite alot of the people we are talking about. I could simply not stand their attitude, their manner.You need your leaders and managers in the military to show some empathy,interest and not to be too wrapped up in the big stuff to miss the over the little people, the smaller stuff..
I am not talking about raving on here til 2am down in Jesters...
I simply say again alot of the FAA Officers do not frat in any way with their people anymore. They deliberaltely avoid, stay clear.
They could learn an awful lot, it would mean an awful lot to many of the people if they could learn again to deign to stoop on occasion.

If you are wondering anybody and are afraid to ask....You find out whats occuring, you enquire, you gain an invite. If no invite - blag in, be brave- force in. Get a small beer. Engage in conversation with some of the JR and SR. Engage is small converstion with the person leaving. Dont talk over or down to people. Stay a while,then make an excuse and leave. Dont get into drinking competions with the juniors, it looks bad. Dont get p*ssed, dont get leery. Time wise try a window within 2000- 2130. Do not stay longer than that if you are wise.

Patronising? yes but possibly necessary.

Occasional forays like this, I promise will do wonders for you.

[FODPlod]

"Both Culdrose and Yeovilton are having millions of £ in infrastructure funding."

So they will be closing soon thenAvtur,

No, it means they are going to the RAF!!

Brawdy.....Lossiemouth......etc etc

...Cranwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Cranwell#Origins)! :ooh:

[Hangarshuffle]

AVTUR - Its actually about time they spent some money on both RNAS. The junior officers accomm. was utterly disgraceful at both places for many years-beyond belief.
I had the misfortune to live in Vian Block at CU, and before that Tovey Block up at Seahawk 2 CU. 1945 era building, dirty, rat infested as well. Not nice.Tiny dirty rooms.Dirty bathrooms.
One day a bloke called Geoff pitched up. He was USN and on a swop. He looked at disbelief at Tovey Block. He actually thought it was a monty python style British Joke. Come on guys, stop messing- wheres my real room?
Er, thats actually it Chief. They left him there.
Eventually, he rocked up in the fog at the Fire Station door, and was taken down by the lads to see the OOD. He refused point blankly to stay there and said convicted USN prisoners had better standards of accomm. He was eventually rehoused. This was only what 6 years ago?

Things have come up a bit since then I concede but its not good at times- I dont miss the place.

[oggers]

I do NOT agree that the "current generation are lacking something". I've been outside for a while now but those of my contemporaries who are still in the mob are in the cadre of current SOs. There is always the odd :mad: but the overwhelming majority of them are first class individuals and I would rejoin just to serve under them - and alongside the next lot - if only I wasn't so long in the tooth.

[racedo]

Not commenting on specifics of the case BUT can be difficult for Seniors who know something is happening but unsure because it is low key whether their presence is desired...................not required, desired.

If everybody assumes X is invited apart from X then its hard to apportion blame to X.

Leaving do's can be a difficult one whether service or non service but if want to ensure someone is there then important to make sure they aware of invite, remind them a week before and remind them on day.

If All do not attend when invited, reminded a couple of times etc then could be personal but generally in a group of a reasonable size there will always be one or two who would or at least ensure proper apologies known in advance.

Getting people collectively to ignore is kind of hard to do (and enforce) as people don't like being told what to do in their own time and also more likely to tell people of it as well.

[AutoBit]

Racedo,

Spot on. I am fairly clear that there has been a mix up in comms here.

Hangershuffel,

As with many others on here we will agree to disagree, however I still think this post is in bad taste. You don't know the full facts. You've had one side of the story and those concerned have no right of reply. Making a sweeping generalisation about a whole cadre of people who have, over the last 3 years, kept us alive and in the game is frankly below the belt. The concept that a CO could and should attend every run-ashore is ridiculous. For the majority of us still actually in, there are no complaints.

[Misformonkey]

With experience of RN senior officers I don't think you know quiet how hard some of these people work for the good of the FAA, some ultimately may lack social skills but that doesn't detract from the stella work done. Not a dig Hangar but maybe a different perspective from a ranker.

[Tourist]

There is an elephant in the room......

Perhaps your mate is a Tw@t and no officers liked him/were glad to see the back of him?

Not saying this is the case as I have no idea to whom you refer, but it's a possibility.

[AutoBit]

Gents,

Hanger obviously has a major chip on his shoulder. I vote we move on. Nothing to see here.

:ugh:

[kintyred]

Let's not forget that the full name of the FAA is the Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Air Force and from what Hangar has said I think the two organisations have much in common at the top. Given how many VSOs we have can they really be too busy to spare a little time for those who have given a lifetime's service? All I got was a grip and grin on a cold and windy flightline after 30 years!

[Courtney Mil]

It's not just the FAA. If you piss the AOC off in your final days of serving out redundancy whilst at HQ1 Gp you may find you don't get dined out or taken to the pub.

[Tourist]

Kintyred

Erm, no.
The FAA is most certainly not "of the Royal Air Force"
I got a little bit of sick in my mouth just thinking about it.

[oldengineer]

I post very rarely these days but as a serving FAA Officer with 36+ years' service I feel duty bound to comment. I have attended many Leaving Runs, Top Tables and Runs Ashore for Officers, SRs and JRs, some as the GoH with a speaking part (at least 2 in the Seniors Mess of HMS Victory, a rare honour for a Commissioned Officer), some not. I will continue to do so as long as I am invited and this is my main point, most Officers, Senior or not would, I am sure, be delighted to attend if they were invited.

A secondary point if I may - establishments deal with Service leavers in different ways; whilst at a certain training establishment in the South I always made sure that the WOs were invited to a TTL in the Wardroom Mess and given a leaving dit if they were indeed leaving the Service, which was the minimum they deserved imho. In my current unit, an Army WO left after 30 years' and we had a few beers in downtown Bristol as his only goodbye, but at least it was something.

So in summary, no, I don't think Senior FAA Officers lack something.

[Wyler]

Get a grip!

Your WO 'mate' was recognised through promotion.

He leaves with skills he did not have when he joined.

I daresay he leaves with many happy memories and many good friends.

He leaves with a gratuity.

He leaves with an index linked pension.

If he really is that upset because no Officer(s) came to his farewell bash then he has been promoted (way) above his ability.

I would never have dreamt of turning up, uninvited, for a farewell bash as I would probably have been shown the door.

Had I been invited, personal or 'open' I would always go along.

In my experience of WOs (the good ones that is).
they do not need to be patronised by some Officer, senior or otherwise.

[anotherthing]

from OP

I found at CU very much the fact I simply could not stand quite alot of the people we are talking aboutMaybe you are the problem...

[Thomas coupling]

The OP is living in cloud cuckoo land. Does he honestly believe officers (or anyone for that matter) should attend everyone's leaving do? Really? How many do's is that every year then??

Get real - leaving do's are for close friends and family - simples. A week after you leave they don't even remember your name. Consider himself lucky that you are bigging him up.

Culdrose: What a sign ofthe times. I was there for a colleagues funeral several weeks ago and previously - a tech refresher course. The place is a dump of the first order. It wouldn't get an AA rose never mind a 3 star rating. Civvy staff are few and far between and completely untrained to run such a place. The building needs painting and is a sad enditement of what it stood for all those years before. Couldn't wait to get out of the hovel.:mad:

[Courtney Mil]

Thomas, while your point is well made and has some grounding, I think the OP's point is that it would have been nice if someone senoir to the guy leaving had dropped in for a pint. I know I certainly made the effort, not for everyone, but certainly for those I knew and those that had devoted a fair chunk of their life to the Service - whichever one.

[kintyred]

Apologies for thread drift....

Sorry Tourist, did that piece of history not get passed on during your naval training?!

I suspect that after the final round of cuts the last units left in each of the services will be

Army. An infantry regiment
Air Force. An SH squadron
Navy. PR Department

[cenzo]

Ok, I wouldn't generally do this, but I feel compelled to do so.

Hangar - what I get from you is a sweeping generalisation based upon personal experience of FAA Officers. Without getting into a p**sing contest, I am a serving FAA Officer who has served at all of the establishments you mention and many more. I came from the ranks, some 23 years ago....and before you mention it, no, that has no bearing on whether I attend a leaving do or not. I would make every effort to attend either through a sense of duty or because I genuinely like the bloke, as I am sure most officers would.

Your scathing comments about the leadership, manners and approach of current executive officers at our 2 Air Stations mark you out as someone who has neither the intelligence or perspective to comment accurately. I know both COs very well, and trust me, there is absolutely no way either of them would have ignored this had they been invited. Which is of course the key point. Had they? Trust me, had they been invited and could not make it (this may come as a shock but they are quite busy), they would have at least sent their apologies.

So in essence, the answer to your question is no, they are not missing something, other than your mates leaving do.

And if you feel strongly about my response, do some digging, find out who I am then contact any current or past member of my division, squadron, or flight and ask them if I'm missing something. I look forward to your findings.

[4ROCK]

Cenzo

May I say what a refreshing, articulate and factually rich riposte to some of the bitter nonsense posted on here.:D

I only had a brief interface with FAA officers during Op Corporate (might have met the WO at the crux of all this?!) and I found them to be as good as any of my fellow officers down there.

It's a shame you have to even divert any of your time to respond to such ridiculous statements - I hope your sentiments have buried the prospects of anyone actually agreeing with the question which started this thread!

[oldengineer]

:DCENZO - couldn't agree more.

[Canadian Break]

What Wyler Said! PS How are the trains mate? CB

[HTB]

The question was:

Do the current generation of Senior FAA Officers lack something?

Well, yes...aircraft carriers and aircraft to name but two...;)

Sorry chaps, been off for 12 months having cancer, so feeling a bit mischievous now that I'm recovering

[Union Jack]

.....so feeling a bit mischievous now that I'm recovering

Good news - just keep on doing both!:ok:

Jack

[racedo]

I know both COs very well, and trust me, there is absolutely no way either of them would have ignored this had they been invited. Which is of course the key point. Had they? Trust me, had they been invited and could not make it (this may come as a shock but they are quite busy), they would have at least sent their apologies.

If everybody assumes X is invited apart from X then its hard to apportion blame to X.

Cenzo

Did say as much in my comment a couple of weeks ago......

Most people would either attend or make an apology, even if they disliked the person.......... someone moving on then nowt achieved in being uncivil, no matter what personal opinion you may hold.

Sadly as originally figured it may have been a case that everyone assumed someone had invited Senior officers but nobody had, que embarassment all round and a feeling that someone had been snubbed.