Report of HS125 shot down in Venezuela

[clicker]

ASN Aircraft accident Hawker Siddeley DH-125-400A XB-MGM Buena vista del Meta, Apure (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20131104-0)

[Newforest2]

The plane is registered in Mexico, Venezuela could be en-route to Columbia. :hmm:

[500N]

Illegal flight.

[clicker]

You both could be right.

Of course as such that entry gives no facts about the flight, ie routing, level, any radio calls etc. While low level over the rain forest could point to a drugs run so could an engine and/or equipment failure.

I hope that all possible checks were made before such drastic action was taken and that the circs it which it was found didn't form any assumptions in the air force minds.

[Flash2001]

How are the Venezuelans armed? I thought that you could put a round across the bows and force the offender to land. Maybe they tried??

[SASless]

Remember the Missionary (yes spelled it right) Airplane that got shot down after it was mis-identified as being a Drug Smuggler? The ROE's are far looser in that part of the World than in Afghanistan.

[racedo]

XB-MGM was offered for sale in January 2013 with 10,681 flying hours and 8,107 landings.
====

Who was offering it and who bought it ?

[surplus1]

I have no idea where this HS125 came from, where it was going, what it may have been carrying, or what actually happened up there. However, I do know that it is clearly identifiable as a civil aircraft, is unarmed and incapable of rendering any significant "danger" to the State of Venezuela. I also believe that it could have easily been forced to land (by a couple of F-16s) if that is what the interceptors wanted (unless its pilot was a total idiot) and there are at least 4 suitable airports, all within about 30 minutes flying time of the location given, with paved runways of adequate length.

So, why was it necessary to shoot it down and murder its occupants? And no, I don't care if it was carrying drugs or not. It clearly was not able to resist in any way.

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[West Coast]

There's not enough information in the public realm to arrive at any informed conclusion.

[surplus1]

Granted, that is technically correct. But, if the location given in the report (7 nm N of Buena Vista del Meta) is accurate, that would be no more than approx, 10 nm outside of Colombian airspace. Not much of a deviation in an area with minimal nav aids. Buena Vista del Meta is a frontier town on the border with Colombia on the banks of the Meta river.

One can only wonder: was it fleeing to Colombian airspace after extended overflight, penetrating Venezuelan airspace, or just off course? This isn't some little Cessna or Piper that can land on unimproved strips in the middle of nowhere. It needs paved runways of about 6000 ft and jet fuel.

There's a certain odor about this event and it's not that of roses.

[ion_berkley]

All linked into a new controversial law in Venezuela dating from May but only acted on this last month.

Venezuela to Shoot Down Drug Planes | StoptheDrugWar.org (http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2013/oct/07/venezuela_drug_plane_shootdowns_resume)
Latin American Herald Tribune - Venezuela Shoots Down 2 Planes (http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=1094893&CategoryId=10717)
Doubts Raised Over Downed 'Narco-Planes' in Venezuela - InSight Crime | Organized Crime in the Americas (http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/venezuela-officials-question-photo-of-downed-narco-plane)

[barnstormer1968]

The burned out aircraft in the pic appears to have been 'shot down' from VERY low level IMHO. Low enough to not need the props turning, and to have landed all in one piece, and with a bush flying next to it that also got shot down, landing just behind the left hand wing.

This is one of the comments under one of the linked stories:

You won't believe this but the new Russian fighters that Chavez bought as well as the ageing US jet fighters are not armed nor loaded as he (Chavez) feared that the military would stage a coup d' etat/putsch against him with armed and loaded warplanes.... That is why there have been so many flights flying through Venezuela's air space with a high degree of impunity... So, it is just all another one of Maduro's stupid bravados and much ado about nothing..... So the illegal flights will carry on flying through unharmed...

[NutLoose]

HS125 is a Bizz jet, no props

[Maxibon]

Apologies to Venezuela but I've only just got out of the wreckage and the jungle. Basically I got airborne from FY on a DL7 in Sep 1990, mis-judged the fix on Snoopy's Nose whilst updating the TANS, the doppler went tits and I ran out of fixes in my blue folder, slightly unsure of my position for a few years and the ex-VC10 captain was asleep on autopilot. It was all somewhat inevitable really - a dodgy made-up fix of Angel Falls, forgot to input the mag variation to the compass and made a pigs of the radar fix and before I know it, we're being locked up by a fully armed Venture glider in Venezualan markings and hit by at least 3 arrows and some pebbles before crashing into the trees. Captain slept through the lot.....;)

[AdamFrisch]

Agreed, Surplus. Even if the plane was actually full of drugs and dodgy, it's still not OK to murder it's crew. It poses no threat and could easily have been intercepted on the ground.

[con-pilot]

I have to agree with surplus1 on this, now possibly they did try to force the 125 to land and the crew refused. But from where the wreckage is compared to the border, if they tried to force the 125 to land, they didn't try very hard.

We'll probably never know the real story.

[surplus1]

You won't believe this but the new Russian fighters that Chavez bought as well as the ageing US jet fighters are not armed nor loaded as he (Chavez) feared that the military would stage a coup d' etat/putsch against him with armed and loaded warplanes.... That is why there have been so many flights flying through Venezuela's air space with a high degree of impunity... So, it is just all another one of Maduro's stupid bravados and much ado about nothing..... So the illegal flights will carry on flying through unharmed...

Whatever your views re the Chavez (now Maduro) regime, I would advise you not to bet your life on American or British propaganda. Chavez/Maduro may be unpopular in Washington and London but not in Venezuela. Those SU-30s an old F-16s are armed and whatever is too low and slow for them can be easily handled by the Tucanos. If they decide to take you out they're quite capable of doing it.

The Tucanos ( 9 hr endurance with externals) routinely patrol the border with Colombia and intercept the light ac stuff, but they're not fast enough to intercept a DHC-125 so that had to be one or more of the fighters.

[surplus1]

You're right con-pilot, it is highly improbable that we'll ever know what really happened.

Of course the Venezuelans are not alone. The Peruvians, Bolivians, Ecuadorians and Colombians have been shooting down light aircraft drug runners for years. It's a high risk business. What I found most unusual about this one is that the intercepted aircraft was a business jet. That's not the norm.

Not to say that bizjets don't carry drugs but usually they fly around with (purchased) permits and flight plans, not invading airspace unidentified.

[robbreid]

After several emails today, it seems this Hawker was found abandoned, on a clandestine runway - and destroyed by military.

It was not shot down, and no crew was located.

[PingDit]

Don't think it was a Rendition flight :suspect:

Track the CIA's Secret Rendition Flights with a New Interactive Map | Motherboard (http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/track-the-cias-secret-rendition-flights-with-a-new-interactive-map)

[clicker]

When I saw the photo on the link report I did think that the remains looked too contained even for a slow speed crash but then accepted what had been written as accurate (ish).

[surplus1]

After several emails today, it seems this Hawker was found abandoned, on a clandestine runway - and destroyed by military.

It was not shot down, and no crew was located.

Makes more sense than the original story.

[barnstormer1968]

Surplus1

I doubt the writer of the text you quoted to will see your comment, as it was only a link I posted here from another site, and not my view :)

[con-pilot]

Don't think it was a Rendition flight

Track the CIA's Secret Rendition Flights with a New Interactive Map | Motherboard

Now that is a fun site, one slight problem however. Most of the aircraft listed, not military, are US corporate owned aircraft and a few of them are fractional owership aircraft.

For examle, N1HC, a G-IV SP owned by an oil company based in Tulsa, Oklahoma; The Hardesty Oil Company.

N379P is owned by Petroleum Helicopter Inc.

N313P is an experimental aircraft based in Califorina. (A light single pistion powered aircraft, so get Lockheed right out of your mind. :p)

No need to go on really.