UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4 [Archive]

Coconutty

23rd Oct 2013, 09:50

I haven’t posted much on pPrune lately, mainly because I left the “industry” at the end of July,
and I no longer have much to contribute, other than “old” news,
so I’m hanging up my pPrune hat, and bidding you all farewell.

During the past (almost) 13 years, I am proud to have been :

A Police Air Observer,
A Tactical Flight Officer,
An Observer Training Officer,
A Quality Auditor,
A Deputy UEO,
A UEO, and ( albeit only for only a very short time ..... )
A Pilot ;)

( I think I also found time to make the tea - at least twice ;-)

During my time, I have been enthralled to oversee a brand new aircraft into service, and develop its use :)
then later been saddened and sickened when it was destroyed in an arson attack :yuk:

I hope that over the years I have provided a few thought provoking comments,
and even a little humour at times, and that I haven’t seriously offended anyone,
( except maybe Chopjock :E ).

Within the forums I managed to “out” a bogus Charity
( Remember the “Starving Children of the World / Around the World Record breaking attempt ? ),
and even correctly predicted that the Founder would end up killing himself !
( Not my proudest achievement, but factual none the less :ooh: ).

I leave having no experience of working under the auspices of NPAS, so cannot comment further
on how NPAS are performing, and as the majority of Forum members who have joined NPAS
now seem to have been silenced, I can only wish all of those now involved, the very best for the future :D

I really do hope it all works out for you all - but that’s NOT a prediction I’m going to commit to :oh:

I may pop back now and then for a little look into how things are going,
but will probably keep my opinions, which are becoming more outdated each day, to myself,
other than maybe firing off the odd F.O.I. request to my former Police Force -
to find out just how much EXTRA they are really spending ( and NOT Saving ) on Air Support from NPAS,
and what facts they are going to publish to demonstrate a “more effective service”.

Bon voyage !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

Benet

23rd Oct 2013, 13:12

I'm sure we haven't seen the last of you!

And I'm sure you weren't winding up Chopjock, even if he managed to wind you (and just about everyone else) up from time to time...

PANews

23rd Oct 2013, 19:31

I think you will find that being so shortly absent does not halt the worth of your knowledge or opinion.

Even if it were to stray off the truly accurate I am sure it would be taken as thought provoking and argumentative.......

MightyGem

23rd Oct 2013, 20:51

so I’m hanging up my PPRuNe hat,
I'm sure it will fall off the hook now and then. Take care.

Ye Olde Pilot

23rd Oct 2013, 21:02

Good luck on whatever you do in the future Coco.

I've crossed swords a few times but now shocked to discover you were not a pilot.

zorab64

23rd Oct 2013, 23:09

Coconutty, good luck to you in whatever you do next, &/or retire to!?

Many (I hope most) of us have valued & enjoyed your contributions to rotorheads and I'll concur with those who would welcome future comments, however rusty, or out-of-the-loop you feel. Experience counts on pprune, despite some organisations throwing it to the wind - which allows me to join in the predicting business, as I reckon it'll come back to bite them as well as insert a recently much-used emoticon! :ugh:

Keep safe,
z

handysnaks

24th Oct 2013, 07:45

I wouldn't just drop it Coconutty. Although I'm tempted to think that it's more to do with the shooting season being fully open and keeping you too busy to surf ;)

SilsoeSid

24th Oct 2013, 12:23

It would be a shame to lose you Coconutty, however you seem to have forgotten the PPRuNe/Eagles paradox that states;

You can checkout any time you like,
But you can never leave ......

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/simpsonshereforever_zps76de592c.png

backtothebeat

24th Oct 2013, 16:55

Take care coconutty.
Have always been able to tell that you had spent a good amount of time at the sharp end.
And your right about people being silenced. Fear and trepidation are walking amongst those that remain and I know at least one cop has been axed for speaking out, there may be others.
Bon voyage..!

PANews

25th Oct 2013, 21:15

I was amused .... disgusted..... not surprised.... [I really do not know which applies] to see that Chief Constable Alex Marshall [late of this parish..... never actually gave up] now still the ACPO lead on Air Support despite being put away in a broom cupboard at Bramshill College, attracted the derision of various members of the real press by his publication of what one chirpy Fleet Street chap called the 'bleeding obvious' .... in a set of rules by which police officers should live.

It will come as a shock to those in far off places that an ACPO officer in the UK has seen fit to find time to publish a set of rules that I thought I personally signed up to at birth and certainly endorsed on oath in November 1965.... that we 'the perleece' were were not to beat people, cheat or lie etc etc on pain of being seen as criminals.

The worry is that he, his fellow ACPOs including Mr Hogan-Howe of 'Pleb' infamy, and a lot of politicians have had their sticky fingers in the NPAS works from day one so any cosy feelings that might have been growing are clearly an illusion ........

As a certain character in the East End famously said repeatedly..... "Woss going on?"

Quoted of course with due acknowledgement of Copyright to both the Daily Mail:( and the BBC:}

Ye Olde Pilot

25th Oct 2013, 22:11

The Andrew Mitchell saga has not helped the police and there is a public perception that the force is no more than a tax collector through fines imposed on motorists while the real criminals go free.

The fact is that the huge expense of police air ops does not make the public on the ground any safer. It's the same with stab vests/all the stuff hanging off plods belt.

Most urban crime is from Friday night until Sunday morning. It's fuelled by alcohol just like it has been for the last century.

You can look at all the police camera action movies you like but the reality is all the criminals they catch are petty crime merchants dealt with by magistrates who cannot imprison anyone for more than six months. Result is that the worst they get is three months.

I hate to be a party pooper but plods chopper coppers in their 'Klown Kaptain suits' are a waste of public money .
It would be better to assign the funds to the Air Ambulance operations in the UK.

TheDog

3rd Nov 2013, 21:05

Anyway, back to matters NPAS.:rolleyes:

When are the management going to admit that we need more TFOs? People are still getting their shifts changed at short noticed, units are still going offline for lack of bobbies.

Up here, Unit A was short of a TFO and would be single crewed for the night. So, a TFO was sent from Unit B to stand in. Unit B is now short and was single crewed for the night. WTF??

Units are also notifying that they will be singled crewed on such and such a date. I thought planned single crewing wasn't allowed.

I've been doing this for many years, and prior to NPAS, I don't think any uit in the are had to go single crewed due to a lack of staff.

Effective and efficient.

SilsoeSid

6th Nov 2013, 12:58

Police Helicopter Pilot with West Yorkshire Police | 1401374435 (http://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401374435/police-helicopter-pilot/?TrackID=110)

Thomas coupling

6th Nov 2013, 13:21

All recruitment for aircrew is via W Yorks now as the account holder for NPAS.

A bird tells me they have found someone.... Hope he isn't the first on the 'new' salary scale :eek::eek:

Thomas coupling

6th Nov 2013, 17:45

Tigerfish - good to hear from you old boy! Hope this finds you well. Had a conversation with a very very prominent proponent of NPAS this afternoon during the SAR conference and he confirms what I felt deep down inside - that without NPAS or its equivalent, the stand alone units would slowly but inevitably be picked off one by one by the councils thru cutbacks or the PCC thru political meddling and ignorance. It was the best solution where the wagons formed a circle to avoid tail enders being ambushed.
Now this is an interesting dilemma for W yorks - do they swing or fly under a change of PCC? Could a lowly PCC up in the dales actually interfere with a national model?
Keep in touch on here and speak your mind.

MightyGem

6th Nov 2013, 21:03

A bird tells me they have found someone.
I think they need more than one.

SilsoeSid

7th Nov 2013, 09:52

:8

EC-135 Limitation flashcards | Quizlet (http://quizlet.com/16891118/ec-135-limitation-flash-cards/)

EC-135 Ground School flashcards | Quizlet (http://quizlet.com/17066879/ec-135-ground-school-flash-cards/)

EC135 Limitations (CG) flashcards | Quizlet (http://quizlet.com/25946580/ec135-limitations-cg-flash-cards/)

EC 135 P2+ Operational limits flashcards | Quizlet (http://quizlet.com/24906249/ec-135-p2-operational-limits-flash-cards/)

FLM: http://helicopterindia.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/FM-EC135P2.24193407.pdf

Tech Data: http://www.heliasset.com/images/file_pdf/EC%20135%20data.pdf

p.s. As with everything on t'internet, check validity before use :ok:
Flight Manual EC135 P2i/T2i (http://www.hillebold.de/Dateien/FlightManualEC135forXPlane9R2.pdf)

SilsoeSid

8th Nov 2013, 22:42

08/11/2013
Duration: 3 hours
First broadcast: Friday 08 November 2013
The Stephen Nolan programme takes to the skies in a first-of-its-kind OB, looking at the work of police helicopters in fighting crime.

Broadcasting live from the Met Police's Air Support Unit, Stephen reports live on the work of their helicopters, hearing from reporters in the skies above the capital, and finding out whether this is an effective and cost-efficient way of dealing with everything from anti-terror operations to everyday offences.

BBC Radio 5 live - Stephen Nolan, 08/11/2013 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03gggd4)

Probably like most, I'll listen later on podcast. BBC - Podcasts and Downloads - 5 Live (http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/5live)

However, while on Dad duty taxi duties, I managed to catch the bit about the Met joining NPAS in January ... Or not !!!!!!!

Colonal Mustard

10th Nov 2013, 19:06

Silsoe, fantastic posting

Just managed to listen to the podcast today, a real thought provoking piece of journalism, the discussion around noise and the complaints from it, (or lack of in reality) - under 100 complaints out of a london population of 8.174million, and the wide , varied and constant work the aircraft does leaves me quite impressed at the work the met undertake.

as a taxpayer the issue of whether it is cost effective was answered aswell, they had a basic task (started in the 80`s) which is paid for yearly yet still managed to identify additional roles they could respond to (sounds like good cost-effective use of london funds to me)

The debate at 1hr 12m around NPAS did make me think though, the PCC for west yorks said they were joining in january yet the other guy said the "management had a meeting this week" and was never fully resolved....... sounded ominous.

Nonetheless well done BBC (i dont normally say that) and the Met for a fantastic insight into your world.

I wonder whether NPAS should be invited to allow the BBC into the other regions, i could see this show being a monthly (or twice monthly) event and a great platform for showcasing aviation in support of policing?.:D

Fly_For_Fun

12th Nov 2013, 16:06

I saw a reference to "the London region" so will they not be part of the SE region now?

Aerodynamik

12th Nov 2013, 17:04

I don't think they were ever going to be. London has different needs and priorities to the rest of the country and I think the plan was for them always to be a seperate region.

SilsoeSid

12th Nov 2013, 18:33

Sometimes I wonder if 'they' really want the Met to join the party. After all ....

It is anticipated that NPAS will save up to £15 million a year compared to previous arrangements for police air support when all forces join NPAS.
National Police Air Service (NPAS) | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/npas)

... if not everyone joins, 'they' wont have to show savings of £15 million a year. :suspect:

Fortyodd2

13th Nov 2013, 11:17

FFF,
The Met were always going to be a separate region but there was an understanding that they would venture outside the M25 which was part of the reason for the demise of the Luton aircraft.

As for Mr Marshall's magic "up to 15 million" savings, that was before he had any idea how many people he actually required to achieve the task - Fact. :ugh:

SilsoeSid

13th Nov 2013, 12:47

Anyone have the numbers involved in NPAS to hand?

Pilots
TFOs
Base managers
(gap here as most posts below have been created since NPAS)

Regional Managers
Dispatchers
Dispatch Managers
Management Post Holders
Upper Management

(I think it's accepted that Admin Personnel and Admin Managers would be employed within 'a force' regardless of NPAS. [as could be said for TFOs, but this is a 'numbers' post)

... Don't suppose there are any details of the tenders, costings etc of other NPAS induced extras such as the Gcap programming, hosting and maintaining?

TheDog

13th Nov 2013, 21:57

that was before he had any idea how many people he actually required to achieve the task
What do you mean "before"? They still have no idea. Why?

Anyone have the numbers involved in NPAS to hand?
TFOs

No where near enough. A unit in the NW will effectively be offline for three nights due to only a single Observer on two of the nights and none on the other.:ugh: :ugh:

This was unheard of prior to NPAS.

PANews

14th Nov 2013, 21:27

I have heard the number 400 as an all in figure when everyone is aboard and the extras depart.

How that breaks down I have no clue.

Does that seem to fit in with the ideas of others?

MightyGem

15th Nov 2013, 19:19

400, rather than 397 or 409. Seems a nice round number.

Ye Olde Pilot

20th Nov 2013, 01:05

Some more exciting police helicopter action from Norwich.Police helicopter, firefighters in dinghy and police dogs search for large boat cruiser stolen in Thorpe St Andrew, Norwichhttp://www.edp24.co.uk/polopoly_fs/firefighters_launch_on_the_river_yare_in_thorpe_st_andrew_1_ 3016507!image/4194849720.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/4194849720.jpgThe boat was stolen from near Kingfisher Cruisers in Bungalow Lane at 6pm, and led to a police helicopter searching the scene and a crew from Norfolk fire service deployed their inflatable dinghy to help.

The green 33ft long Aqua Fibre 33 cruiser, with a white cabin, was later recovered further along the River Yare close to the A47 at Postwick, heading in the Bramerton direction.

Pretty exciting stuff:*
The police called firefighters to help them in the operation, and one fire engine from Carrow and a Environment Agency and Fire and Rescue Service van arrived in Thorpe St Andrew at about 10pm. Specialist Broadsbeat officers and the dog unit also helped.

The firefighters launched the dinghy from River Green, near the Rushcutter pub on Yarmouth Road, at 10.28pm, with four firefighters using head torches and lamps.

No arrests have been made. That will be an expensive waste of time then :=
Source Police helicopter, firefighters in dinghy and police dogs search for large boat cruiser stolen in Thorpe St Andrew, Norwich - Crime - Eastern Daily Press (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/police_helicopter_firefighters_in_dinghy_and_police_dogs_sea rch_for_large_boat_cruiser_stolen_in_thorpe_st_andrew_norwic h_1_3016508)

Nail The Dream

20th Nov 2013, 07:04

DON'T FEED THE TROLL :ugh:

Nail

SilsoeSid

20th Nov 2013, 17:22

Damian Green:

"I don't win elections by fiddling voting figures & don't expect police to cut crime by fiddling crime stats."

Of course, we all know that individual politicians wouldn't dream of such a thing, however ...

Nick Clegg pressures Ed Miliband on Labour's Falkirk 'vote-rigging' inquiry. (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/14/nick-clegg-ed-miliband-labour-falkirk-vote-rigging)

Police vote rigging probe into Labour could be UK-wide. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/413157/Police-vote-rigging-probe-into-Labour-could-be-UK-wide)

Tory candidate 'conspired to rig General Election result through postal vote fraud'. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/4240870/Tory-candidate-conspired-to-rig-General-Election-result-through-postal-vote-fraud.html)

Judge upholds vote-rigging claims. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm)

Fly_For_Fun

20th Nov 2013, 18:10

YOP You really are a very sad and bitter individual, I rather pitty you.

Ye Olde Pilot

21st Nov 2013, 20:49

Better pity the Norfolk Police commissioner found fiddling his expenses.
BBC News - Norfolk PCC Stephen Bett pays back more than £3,000 in expenses (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24870523)

And the story below is the tip of the iceberg. Many have employed friends and family on the gravy train. If you think a police helicopter costing thousands is justified to trace a boat than can only travel at about five knots we had better get NATO in for stolen cars and burglaries.(Whoops..sorry those are solved with crime numbers)
A police and crime commissioner who claimed more than £3,000 for driving between his home and his official headquarters is to pay the money back.

Stephen Bett, PCC for Norfolk, claimed for 70 trips from his home to the offices in Wymondham.

He said he had done nothing wrong but would return the money so that the controversy would not "tarnish the reputation of policing in Norfolk".

He said he would no longer claim mileage for those journeys.

Mr Bett, a former Conservative county councillor and Norfolk Police Authority chairman, was elected as independent PCC a year ago on an annual salary of £70,000.

On taking up the post, he designated his home at Thornham, near Hunstanton, as his workplace, and claimed mileage expenses when travelling from there on PCC business.

From November 2012 to August 2013, he claimed a total of £4,947.75 in mileage expenses.

Of that, £3,024 was solely for the 96-mile round trip from his home to the headquarters in Wymondham.

For each of these 70 trips, he received £43.20.

Richard Murphy, a chartered accountant and economist, said the claims were not tax-allowable and could not be justified.

Jon Harvey, a Labour town councillor in Buckingham and a blogger on PCCs, said he was "stunned and surprised" at Mr Bett's mileage claims and described them as a "kamikaze move".

After the BBC broke the story, Mr Bett issued a statement saying he would pay back the money.

"On election I took advice on how and what I could claim and have followed that advice to the letter. I do not believe I have done anything wrong.

"I was absolutely clear from the start that my personal office would be my home and this was checked and cleared by the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner for Norfolk and my accountant.

"As far as I am concerned this was all transparent and above board."

misterbonkers

21st Nov 2013, 21:27

YOP - you're clutching at straws now.

If you want to see what police choppers get up to why not check out their twitter feeds?

If I had been a victim of crime I'd like to think the police would do everything in their power to a) retrieve any stolen property and b) catch the purpertraitors - a helicopter in conjunction with other ground assets surely helps guarantee the best result possible. If the non-desirable gets away with it then at least the police TRIED.

Recent posts on this thread have quite simply been a load of crap.

Anyway, back to Emmerdale for me.

SilsoeSid

21st Nov 2013, 21:30

… and here's one back at your old employer YOP;

BBC spends £26,000 on taxis between London and Salford - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/9861270/BBC-spends-26000-on-taxis-between-London-and-Salford.html)

Figures obtained by The Daily Telegraph under Freedom of Information show that the corporation spent more than £1.9million on rail, air and taxi travel between London and the corporation's new headquarters in Salford.
A total of 61 taxi bookings were made for the 200 mile journey, costing £420 each. The majority of the taxis were booked for guests on programmes based in Salford, such as BBC Breakfast, BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Sport.
A further 201 staff and guests opted to fly between London and Manchester, costing licence free payers £25,000.
The biggest bill, however, was for rail travel, with 26,265 journeys made between London and Manchester at a total cost of £1.9million. Spending on rail travel has almost doubled since 2011.

Many staff working in Salford have opted not to move there permanently.
A total of 174 staff have taken advantage of a halfway-house deal, officially called the "remote location allowance", under which they keep their main home in London and have some of their rent and expenses paid.
Each member of staff is given an allowance of up to £3,390 a month before tax, equivalent to £40,680 a year. To date, this has cost the corporation £3.3 million.
Susanna Reid and Bill Turnbull, the BBC breakfast presenters are among those who have taken advantage of the allowance.

Ye Olde Pilot

21st Nov 2013, 22:02

I agree about Salford Sid. A total and very expensive cock up for purely political reasons.

The same goes for having all the separate UK police forces with the expensive chain of command from the Chief Constables via the Police Commissioners down through the back office staff.

What's wrong with one UK police force?

NPAS is a good idea but deployments should be more focused and controlled.
The boat chase I highlighted is a good example but why do I see so many petty criminals being chased by a taxpayer funded helicopter on TV. The Jamie Theakston pay off is usually they got a slap on the wrist!!

In an ideal world as a taxpayer I'd like to see the charity air ambulance merged with police air operations.

MightyGem

22nd Nov 2013, 00:29

why not check out their PPRuNe feeds?
Twitter feeds perhaps??

jayteeto

22nd Nov 2013, 07:41

What has the taxpayer got to do with a charity? At a major incident, we can be on the ground up to two hours, what happens to the police cover then?
You sir, have no idea of the real world. Secondly, people in this part of the world will put money in a tin for a charity, not for the police. The air ambulances are stand alone, freeing us from the beauracratic NONSENSE of a national organisation. You would never be able to get to a job in time because of the ridiculous red tape of a national agency. In summary, people would be dying while we waited for permission to lift.

misterbonkers

22nd Nov 2013, 08:26

MG! The strangest thing happens - i write the T word but it posted as pprune? I go to edit it and it says the T word?!?

How bizarre! This is probably more breaking news than anything to do with NPAS!

Mr Senior Pilot is this a PPruNe conspiracy to take over the world? Will it be floating on the stock market?!?

SilsoeSid

22nd Nov 2013, 09:19

I blame the conspiracy to take over the world on Dr Evil, because when you type in laser, it comes up with l@ser

Sharks with lasers - YouTube

… it's either him or Auric Goldfinger :suspect:

misterbonkers

22nd Nov 2013, 17:07

Oh well, at least austin wont have to file any MORs :)

Wagging Finger

23rd Nov 2013, 10:23

Sorry boys and girls, couldn't resist, this is aimed at YOP and YOP only as most on here are sane level headed people with a good/excellent knowledge of our industry.

A thirty second google map search shows this potential search area. (http://awesomescreenshot.com/04d1zz8l4f)

Even at a steady 4mph the potential areas that boat could have made it to are huge, most of them don't have a footpath or roadway anywhere near them. The most obvious resource is...............yes a helicopter. Now i'm not good at boats but again a quick google found this (http://www.ybw-boatsforsale.com/boat/motor-boat/cruiser/w/uk/surrey/chertsey/aquafibre-33-409215.html) even second hand its £87,000!!!

Now if I had a £87,000 anything, I and I'm sure my insurance company would want the Police to at least put some effort into finding it.

I seem to remember somewhere in the dim and distant past being told it is the duty of the police to detect and recover stolen property.

Get real you halfwit. Stick to journalism and leave Police work to.......the Police.

As a taxpayer I would like to see an independent review panel to monitor and curtail the excesses of so called journalism in all it's forms..............but it's probably never gonna happen.

Rant over back to painting the wall.:ugh:
:=

Fly_For_Fun

23rd Nov 2013, 15:58

Get real you halfwit I feel that is more credit than deserved. I think we are having a battle of wits with an unarmed man/woman/other.

Nail The Dream

25th Nov 2013, 07:16

Now now,

Don't make him angry !

I have it on very good authority that you wouldn't like him when he's angry ! :eek:

Nail

Ye Olde Pilot

25th Nov 2013, 22:06

A lot of the real ex army pilots never wanted to end their careers chasing
kids stealing cars.Hence the .....
Chief Flying Instructor in the UK's only Manned Airborne Surveillance Regiment at Aldergrove in Northern Ireland. having a nice career post army.

Not going down the same road as a lot of Wallop pilots.

I guess Barry will not be on Silsoe and Thomas's card list this Christmas.

Ye Olde Pilot

25th Nov 2013, 22:47

A thirty second google map search shows this potential search area.

Even at a steady 4mph the potential areas that boat could have made it to are huge, most of them don't have a footpath or roadway anywhere near them. The most obvious resource is...............yes a helicopter. Now i'm not good at boats but again a quick google found this even second hand its £87,000!!!
Now if I had a £87,000 anything, I and I'm sure my insurance company would want the Police to at least put some effort into finding it.
I seem to remember somewhere in the dim and distant past being told it is the duty of the police to detect and recover stolen property.
Get real you halfwit. Stick to journalism and leave Police work to.......the Police.
As a taxpayer I would like to see an independent review panel to monitor and curtail the excesses of so called journalism in all it's forms..............but it's probably never gonna happen.
Rant over back to painting the wall.

Nice to know the police do a financial assessment before they launch. Detect and recover stolen property as you say. Get real ...they issue crime numbers for insurance claims.
Now if I had a £87,000 anything, I and I'm sure my insurance company would want the Police to at least put some effort into finding it.I'd better phone my insurance company to get the chopper in the air the next time my ride on mower valued at £3k is pinched then.The boat owner in question kicked up a stink but the boat was insured. Are you saying if it was a stolen moped the police would launch the helicopter?

Poor mugged/robbed average people can't just get Jamie Theakston to voice over the heli hero's to save them.
The money spent on that stupid use of police resources would have been better used elsewhere.
Lord Stevens backs me on my approach.
BBC News - 'Abolish' Police and Crime Commissioners report urges (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25079741)
His review recommends that some police forces are merged.
It says the current 43-force structure is "untenable".
The review suggests the Inspectorate of Constabulary and Independent Police Complaints Commission are replaced, and a focus on neighbourhood policing is also being urged.

Gas Generator

26th Nov 2013, 09:15

YOP

"A chip on the shoulder" comes from the ancient right of shipwrights within the Royal Navy Dockyards to take home a daily allowance of offcuts of timber, even if good wood was cut up for this purpose.

Good Luck

Thomas coupling

26th Nov 2013, 09:38

I'm sure those of you close to the hub are aware that one of your compatriots is 'unwell' currently. He is trying to sift through the small print and minutiae regarding his LOL. My thoughts are with him at this time.
Having been round this buoy personally and also with several others over the years (sadly without much progress being made it would seem), I keep pointing out the usual "gottcha's" with LOL in general.
I understand that as everyone (stand fast the MET :uhoh:) is novating to NPAS, this is probably the first and last chance to respond to the ambiguity that exists between the standard LOL's out there and the role you have as SPIFR police drivers.
My message is this:
IF your extant policy states that your "Occupation" is PILOT; then the LOL will, in 85% of cases prove to be invalid. For further information - PM me as it is not ideal here on the web.

PANews

26th Nov 2013, 09:54

Lord Stevens.... ah yes he knows a lot about everything.

As some aware chappie has already suggested in the paper his every word is devalued by the fact that he was assigned his task by a Labour Government so the current government will take not a blind bit of notice even if every word is true [which I doubt].

Perhaps we should ask the Scottish plod how they feel about all their forces being distilled into one? Is it better after 6 months or worse? Do we need to ask?

That must make it awkward for the Scottish ACPOS now they only have one Chief Constable....... meetings in a phone box in the high street now I guess? Maybe they have AGMs attended by retired/sacked officers....

Some of the forces in England and Wales could perhaps go, but to what end? Certainly the stack of officers at the top of the pile will not get any smaller, ACPO would simply call a Chief Constable an ACC and pay the same rate. Some of the smaller people will go... but some of them can and are streamlined between forces now.

It would just be nice if the officers at the bottom of the pile were left to get on with it and stay in a place long enough to know a lot more about it!

Ye Olde Pilot

26th Nov 2013, 18:11

You're all missing the bigger picture. The helicopter operation comes out of the police annual budget.

In the case of the boat in Norwich I would imagine the whole operation cost much more than the value of the damage to the boat which the insurance company will sort out.

TWOC chases always cost more than the value of the vehicle. They often are the catalyst for someone having a serious accident.

The problem with having a helicopter operation is having to justify the cost. If it sits with the crew for days doing nothing management will worry it will be taken away.

Given all the airtime on various police camera action footage I see the same old waste of public money.

Most of the time it's Groundhog day with very rare occasions where the cost/result can be justified.

Like the rest of the public I want to see more plods on the beat instead of offices or toys.

We need one UK police force with more coppers and less management.

misterbonkers

26th Nov 2013, 18:38

YOP - you'll probably find the truth is that there is plenty that they CANT show on telly.

You also might find that most 'car chases' end before the helicopter crew put down their cups of tea. It'll be the serious ones intent on driving recklessly that the helicopter will catch up with and its not the helicopter that prolongues the pursuit (aside from Emmerdale) as there will be plenty of cars behind the culprit at this point. As you will see from TV - the helicopter comes in handy at the end of the pursuit when the guy bails out and gives officers the run around. Are you saying we just shouldnt bother? What if the driver has legged it because he's one of the norfolks most wanted boat thiefs?

How many square metres can three bobbies cover/contain on the ground?

Small asset or large asset - if its been nicked and theres a good chance of finding it (i.e large open areas such as fens) then surely every asset should be utilised?

Ye Olde Pilot

26th Nov 2013, 18:57

It's not rocket science to find nicked stuff in the fens and you do not need a helicopter to locate those responsible.

Helicopters,Chief Constables,deputy chiefs and police commissioners are milking the money that should be spent on proper policing.

The way things are going it will soon be just a case of phoning your insurance company and ignoring the police.

Art of flight

28th Dec 2013, 15:05

That's just the problem, the old days of police ops taking place in known and familiar territory have gone, The South East region means you can be in peterborough one minute and Portsmouth the next (well, an hour or so later). It's not familiar anymore, and to make it worse, the fuel options have been reduced as well.

SilsoeSid

28th Dec 2013, 16:49

Art of Flight;

That's just the problem, the old days of police ops taking place in known and familiar territory have gone, The South East region means you can be in peterborough one minute and Portsmouth the next (well, an hour or so later). It's not familiar anymore, and to make it worse, the fuel options have been reduced as well.

AoF, interesting. Would you consider police air operations to be more or less safe since NPAS?

G0ULI

29th Dec 2013, 00:20

whitehead06
It isn't the end of police aviation that is being advocated but it is not unreasonable to suggest that fewer better equipped helicopters might be a better option. Comparatively few crimes are prevented or solved using helicopters and it is right to question whether the half billion pounds or more invested in police aviation represents value for money or would be better invested in improved resources on the ground. Do we really need over twenty police helicopters scattered across the country, or could half a dozen fully specified and crewed models do a better job if strategically based? Since our cities seem to be blanketed by CCTV cameras, is there any point flying police helicopters regularly over densely populated areas? Regular ground patrols by uniformed officers and marked police vehicles can be just as much of a deterrent to criminal activity as hovering over a housing estate in the middle of the night. Trouble is, seems there's no money in the budget to provide proper coppers any more! Something has to give somewhere. Everybody is expected to do more with fewer resources and police aviation is very big ticket item compared to virtually every other branch of the police service with the possible exception of marine support. We could make a start by returning police to being a force and not a service, since that's the one thing they have failed to deliver since the term was introduced. (rant over)

ShyTorque

29th Dec 2013, 01:13

G0uli, you seem to be under the impression that police helicopters fly on patrol and / or hover over built up areas as a routine deterrent measure. Perhaps you could add some actual evidence of this.

G0ULI

29th Dec 2013, 01:58

ShyTorque
I can only speak from experience in the Met, but helicopters were routinely tasked to monitor marches, football match crowds, the Notting Hill Carnival, civil disturbance, car pursuits, searches of woodland and scheduled tasking for aerial mapping and other purposes. Since it was London, these were all pretty much daily occurences. As to hovering over housing estates at night, if the helicopter was airborne and available, they would frequently assist ground units in the pursuit of suspects through housing estates and this often entailed hovering over or circling a fixed point on the ground until the suspects were apprehended or lost, which might be half an hour or more. The residents of the posher parts frequently rang to complain and were told to address their complaints to the CAA. The CAA would refer the complainants back to the police and so it went round and round. Admittedly this was a good few years ago and helicopters have generally become a lot quieter and can operate at greater distances from the ground. London is a difficult zone for helicopter ops generally because of the control zone height restrictions for all the local airports. I doubt that things have changed a great deal over the years. There have been comments elsewhere in the thread by others that suggest that flying police helicopters is a way of "showing the flag" to residents of certain areas. As to whether those comments are true, or in any way an official policy, I haven't any knowledge.

Thinking about this a bit further, the pattern of criminal activity across any city would tend to result in police helicopters returning more frequently to particular areas. This may well give the residents of those areas the impression that they were being deliberately singled out for harrassment by police helicopters. Just a thought.

SilsoeSid

29th Dec 2013, 07:53

G0uli, you seem to be under the impression that police helicopters fly on patrol and / or hover over built up areas as a routine deterrent measure. Perhaps you could add some actual evidence of this.

How do you monitor the effectiveness of a deterrent?

Since NPAS, the days of the local officers in the aircraft knowing when and where activities are likely to take place and being in the air at those times, have gone. Was the ac in a particular area an effective deterrent? ... who knows. Was the aircraft airborne when these local knowledge jobs kicked off? ... for sure.

Of course, positive activities such as this, I would imagine, really only apply to the more urban forces. As for complaints, speaking from an urban unit point of view, flying complaints funnily enough, seem to be another rural thing.

Tr; You're welcome, that was the point of that particular post.

ShyTorque

29th Dec 2013, 08:04

G0uli, there is no evidence that police helicopters carry out routine patrols as a deterrent. All the examples you provide were responses to specific task requirements.

If the police helicopter were not available, how else could those tasks be carried out and at what cost?

M00ds, the UK CAA mandate a requirement for police helicopters to carry either stabilisation/autopilot or two pilots. Has been for at least a dozen years or so. The police authorities chose new aircraft over two pilots because the new generation of aircraft (then the MD Explorer or the EC135) were already fitted with an AP.

SilsoeSid

29th Dec 2013, 08:18

G0uli, there is no evidence that police helicopters carry out routine patrols as a deterrent.

Ref my last post, some did, but not any more!

ShyTorque

29th Dec 2013, 08:27

SilsoeSid

29th Dec 2013, 08:54

I saw where you were going Shy, however based on the previously mentioned local knowledge, the patrols were indeed effective. That effectiveness can be based on the tasks attended as a consequence. In addition to monitoring the OCU channels, having officers on the ground calling us up directly was a fantastic way of utilising the ac. 'I see you're in the area, can you help us out', is what the job is all about isn't it?

The unit I worked for was a joint forces one and we never did "patrol" due to correct management of the resource.
I would suggest that the patrols, certainly in our case, were an absolute correct management of the resource. The problem with a national outlook is that it doen't work locally.
As for the deterrent factor, that cannot be quantified.

We could easily overfly the maximum allowed costed hours on genuine task request responses
Surely that problem, especially with joint or rural forces and/or national resources, is more to do with transit times than time on task.

W06 said earlier, "The sum total of the preceeding posts adds up to the end of Police Aviation. Not one mention of the whole raison detre of Police Air ops, catching or stopping criminal activity."

As the famous 'NPAS Downfall' video shown at the symposium says, "We'll only ever get to Mispers".

ShyTorque

29th Dec 2013, 11:27

In the present economic climate, Sid, you sound like you're putting a barrel in each foot.

We were not allowed to overfly the hours allocated per year, endex. Money was very tight even though ours was a brand new unit; later in my time there as chief plot I was constantly reminded of the fact. So we didn't take off without a specific task in mind. Obviously, if we were airborne and an ad hoc task request came in, we would respond if it was justified. Thankfully the unit was based fairly centrally to the main requirement so transit times were not often the major issue. However, it's fair to say that some tasks were seen as unrealistic in a practical timescale and these were usually not attended. The only way around the latter problem is more, locally based helicopters - the very opposite of the present regime under NPAS. Which imho is a retrograde step, done merely to slash the budget.

SilsoeSid

29th Dec 2013, 12:36

Are we here to 'insert role of police ac here' or to save money. If it's the latter, we might as well shut up shop now. Effective use of ac will cost money, but this is balanced with ac being utilised most effectively. Ineffective use of ac costs more, with little, poor or no results!

We never overflew the hours, the patrols were local intelligence based and we had good results, that's good management. The system was so effective we were usually getting the camera on locations and monitoring 'offenders' and directing resources while en-route to the location. First hand information direct from the officer on scene with no postcodes, delay in passing task requests or long winded 3rd hand info.

Saying of the week .... 'Does anyone miss the horses anymore?'

ShyTorque

29th Dec 2013, 12:53

'Does anyone miss the horses anymore?'

A case of horses for courses, then, seeing as the job got done in both places. It was pleasing to note that there was a campaign to prevent the loss of the S. Yorks police helicopter under NPAS. Especially as there had been a campaign to stop it from coming in the first place, only a decade or so before.

But it seems there is little, or no scope for the air support budget to be increased to provide two pilot operations, in any form. At least, not in the forseeable future.

MightyGem

29th Dec 2013, 16:55

As the famous 'NPAS Downfall' video shown at the symposium
Nice to know NPAS management has a sense of humour.

Lemain

29th Dec 2013, 22:12

In the USA it is commonplace for police helicopter pilots to undergo psychological evaluation and checks. Is the same true in the UK and Europe?

SilsoeSid

29th Dec 2013, 23:04

In the USA it is commonplace for police helicopter pilots to undergo psychological evaluation and checks. Is the same true in the UK and Europe?

Of course we do, but you must realise that we Brits are a bit of a different breed than most :ok:

UK Pilot Psychological Test Revision

Lemain

30th Dec 2013, 08:42

I say, that's pretty good. You could make a career out of that, Mr Sid.

ShyTorque

30th Dec 2013, 08:47

Of course, no sane pilot would do the job.

helmet fire

30th Dec 2013, 10:20

with all due respect to Black Adder and General Melchet.......

this thread has drifted off into a discussion about the viability or efficacy of Police Aviation in the UK. Interesting, but a little irrelevant with all due respect.....

It is not what the title points to. Suggest we separate that discussion from the discussion surrounding two pilots, a discussion which I believe should be widened beyond Police Avn, beyond the Glasgow incident and expanded into a professional discourse across all night ops requirements in RW.

Or, will we behave exactly the same after another accident as we have always behaved? Will that solve it???
OR in the words of the great General Melchet when questioned if the secret plan was to jump up over the trenches and run screaming at the enemy like the last 17 times: "Precisely.....the enemy will never suspect we will do the exact same thing for the 18th time....."

Is that what we are doing here?

ShyTorque

30th Dec 2013, 11:37

Or, will we behave exactly the same after another accident as we have always behaved? Will that solve it???

The issue here is that some self appointed experts, some with no knowledge of the job, are over-reacting in trying to find a "solution" to what they believe to be a major problem with police aviation in general (and there is no evidence to suggest that there is) when the cause of this accident isn't yet known.

SilsoeSid

30th Dec 2013, 13:04

hf, conversation moved to appropriate thread :ok:

SilsoeSid

30th Dec 2013, 14:04

Sid, thanks for the confirmation. It's important to emphasise that point. The unit I worked for was a joint forces one and we never did "patrol" due to correct management of the resource. We could easily overfly the maximum allowed costed hours on genuine task request responses.

Shy, What are the 2 most common expressions used by the public in reference to the police?

1. Aren't police officers looking young these days.
2. Why aren't there more officers on the beat.

a. Thanks to A19, they are looking so young because they are. I think I can safely say that every officer in the force that I until recently worked for, is younger than me!
b. Thanks to cutbacks and the red tape that still exists, despite claims that it is being reduced dramatically, there simply aren't enough officers to routinely patrol the streets, reassuring the public, serving our communities and protecting them from harm.

How can air support help with either of those main public concerns?

i. Well, with our greying hair and ruggedly handsome good looks, we can only do our best.

ii. I cannot believe that you honestly think routinely patrolling is a sign of bad management and a waste of money as opposed to having the ac sit in the hangar or on the dispersal all day, while the crews are waiting to be dispatched. Please tell me what is wrong, especially on a quiet day in NPAS (there's a reason why those radios are so quiet), for the ac to be taken up for an hours patrol where it can be seen to be around, can react immediately to any jobs that appear and can be up on patrol during times of known skulduggery, based on local knowledge.

Let me assure you that on these patrols, you can flit from one job to the next, finding people in gardens, following off road bikes, clearing large areas, searching canal towpaths, getting onto misper jobs, helping out that bobby that calls you direct to help them out etc etc ... all without the hassles of multiple control room talk and that immortal phrase, "Do you have a postcode?", even if it is a pursuit that the force control room needs the ac for. Its not unheard of to have to return for fuel in order to complete these tasks that, if the ac wasn't up doing these patrols, would have just seen the ac sat on the ground doing nothing, getting itself cleaned, helping no-one and fighting no crimes.

In the scope of things, what would it really cost for each NPAS unit to have an hour a day where, if it was quiet as far as dispatch was concerned, to self launch on a patrol based on local knowledge? (it doesn't have to self patrol launch every day, just if there might be some bubbling's based on the 'bobbies nose')

Of course, this amount of busyness, I guess, only applies to the more urban areas, however as I've mentioned before how do you gauge a deterrent? Rural units, getting to know their patch and further afield better, may well deter some criminal activity or simply be in the right place at the right time for a job they can be called to having been seen in the area, a job that wouldn't normally get the request up the chain for. On a cold dark early morning, I have been glad of a little bit of previous bungee stretching, especially when the wind farm lights get closer while on a motorway pursuit!

I wonder what you would consider to be a better efficiency & management strategy; Having 3 different aircraft from 2 different regions en-route to the same misper job in Gloucester, or have an ac do a 30 min patrol when the local bobbies know something is bubbling out there, yet the dispatch chain radios remain quiet?

Just to remind us all;

NPAS Overview | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/overview)
NPAS Overview

The focus of NPAS is to deliver a more cost effective service, balancing the need to save money in a challenging economic environment against the need to ensure the police service has a quickly deployable asset that can be used to tackle crime and protect the public.

NPAS will ensure that essential air support continues to be delivered where it is required; ensuring that confidence in the service remains high. Forces will also be able to make use of a number of aircraft within each region meaning that the police service’s response will, in many cases, be enhanced over current provision. NPAS will be a truly national (England and Wales) policing service that will be at the heart of improving public safety. It will bring improvements in operational efficiencies and allow for the introduction of innovative contracts that offer better value for money for the service and the tax payer.

SilsoeSid

30th Dec 2013, 14:16

As the famous 'NPAS Downfall' video shown at the symposium ...
Nice to know NPAS management has a sense of humour.
MG, I think it was shown more as a Gypsy's warning than to show a sense of humour. Apparently it was said that we'll see just how far that sense of humour goes should anything similar appear! Put it this way, I have been told that there are a few marked cards in our pack :uhoh:

Anyway, despite having nothing to do with its creation, for those that haven't seen it yet;

Hitler finds out about National Police Air Service (NPAS) - YouTube

Colonal Mustard

30th Dec 2013, 17:59

i loved it and fell about laughing.......... (the video).... i would say the jury is still out on NPAS but to be honest they (the jury) voluntarily left the court building months ago.....:D

ShyTorque

30th Dec 2013, 20:30

Sid, It appears that you haven't read the previous posts properly and find confrontation where there is none. I commented because someone else on that thread objected to the thought of tax payers' money being wasted by airborne "patrolling". This was always an extremely contentious issue at the unit I flew for. My experience was that we did not ever fly patrols, we were required (for financial reasons) to respond to specific tasks only. The tasks quoted by that person did not come under the description of "patrols, but were examples of more specific reasons to be airborne. Then you jumped in....

Working for the police authority as a contracted pilot (actually, two authorities, ours was a joint ASU), I had absolutely no authority to decide which task to take, or decline, except for safety related reasons. The unit aircraft was flown in accordance with the requirements of the PAOC holder's financial guidelines and after the first year, we (I mean the unit police staff, not the pilots) were told to be very careful with the hours flown towards the end of the financial year, because we were likely to overfly the costed hours. We were told by the PAOC holder himself (the CC) that the unit was being run only on probationary terms.

The unit was usually very busy. In addition to our two counties, we also provided limited tasking for two more adjacent ones (who had no air support of their own at that time), so we covered four counties in all. If we had also flown routine patrols we would have gone way over budget, totally against the wishes of the big boss, the CC!

Your unit was/is obviously running on different terms to the one I worked at. As I hoped you might gather from my response on the other thread (see my comment: "horse for courses"), I have no personal preference or argument over whatever policy the unit worked under, but if it helps you understand my personal viewpoint, I'm quite prepared to fly all day, rather than sit in a boring crewroom.

jayteeto

30th Dec 2013, 20:38

We were frequently allowed to patrol at specific 'demand profile' times with excellent results. If you know where to look it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Cannabis farms, stolen cars, burglars and drunk drivers were easy meat.

SilsoeSid

30th Dec 2013, 21:47

Sorry Shy, I was under the impression that when you said, "The unit I worked for was a joint forces one and we never did "patrol" due to correct management of the resource.", you were saying that patrolling was an incorrect use of the resource. As you say, we must have been running under different terms and that is where the misunderstanding came :ouch:

Like you, we were also told to watch the hours, as the service dates loomed closer, yet on the other hand there were times when we were told to patrol more. Whichever, the weather always seemed to be a good manager of hours come the day! No overflying, no over budget, no complaints, just effective planned use of the resource. A police vehicle doing police work.

Like you, I'd rather be proactively strapped to the cab 'Serving our communities, protecting them from harm', than sat dunking another digestive.

ShyTorque

30th Dec 2013, 22:06

One huge bone of contention at our unit was the sudden introduction of road signs which declared "Police helicopter traffic enforcement", along with some speed camera signs, as if we were routinely airborne on patrol, with "nothing better to do than persecute motorists".

We on the unit saw this as hugely counterproductive with regard to how the general public saw the basic purpose of their police helicopter, not least because it was actually a false declaration of intent. We most certainly did not get airborne with the sole intent of checking the speed of motorists. Not to say we never noticed a speeding vehicle, but it would need to be very blatantly obvious speeding and probably connected to some other criminal misdemeanor.

SilsoeSid

30th Dec 2013, 22:14

OooH, are you saying this wasn't your lot? :(

"Police helicopter traffic enforcement"

SilsoeSid

30th Dec 2013, 23:23

OooH, are you saying this wasn't your lot? :(

whitehead06:

Yes SS I am! Apart from some tests in the very early days using the Edgely Optica I know of no actual Police air operations which really did this sort of enforcement. That is not to say that some Maverick PR depts did not try to spin a story.

Just look at the picture! It looks very un English like to me. The cars are driving on the right and certainly the notice is not consructed using approved letter spacing and type!

False I say, - false!

whitehead06; Please tell me that you realise it's a video and not a picture :eek:

ShyTorque

30th Dec 2013, 23:31

No, it's definitely not the correct side of the Atlantic. The signs I'm on about are blue in colour and are still in place, well over a decade later. Every time I pass them I'm tempted to go and write a big "NO" in front of the words "Police helicopter traffic enforcement" in black spirit marker pen.... :E

P.s. We only used machine guns, much more fun..

SilsoeSid

31st Dec 2013, 08:57

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/235f849939c2ac01d7667c20fa3014e1_zps814c3547.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/th_eb6fd2a0ef4d753b1133f6f59a6bcdff_zps0fef8d8a.jpg (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/?action=view&current=eb6fd2a0ef4d753b1133f6f59a6bcdff_zps0fef8d8a.jpg)

aeromys

31st Dec 2013, 09:24

It was certainly done in the past in the UK, usually as a high profile method of enforcing notorious speed sites. I recall the Met carrying a battery powered Vascar system in the back of the old 222's in the early 90's.

Certainly these days it is considered an unsuitable use for a Police Air Ops resource.

Edit - Talking of which I see G-META is still flying !!! Whump Whump Whump
http://www.pprune.org/8194331-post5512.html

SilsoeSid

31st Dec 2013, 10:09

WH06, No-one has said it is suitable etc.

Just like #2 in this vid, the last few posts seem to have gone over your head, especially the helicopter enforcement vid :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0yBcj1_vQg

I bet you watch the whole of this video :E

Tandemrotor

31st Dec 2013, 14:36

whitehead
TR won't accept the value of what we do, and I guess that he's not alone.
You couldn't possibly be more wrong! I'm a huge fan of police air support. I accept, for disagreeing with the received view of safety here, I have become something of a whipping boy for many issues. But you should not ascribe to me views which I have never expressed!

As I have said previously, I have seven years experience in the role at a very busy metropolitan unit. I also did precisely the same job in a fixed wing (a HUGELY underrated asset in these cost conscious times!)

NPAS looks to me like a total disaster for the role of aerial support. The shorter the response of the aerial asset, so the results improve exponentially! We pursued armed robbers from the scene of a raid, mostly because we were airborne when the call came in, and with no information whatsoever, I spotted a car with an open sunroof. On an overcast day in December!! There was a period in the early nineties when we had additional flying hours financed purely for patrolling the urban area! Police aviation has probably NEVER been more effective than those times! Times that I lived through! And as I also said previously, times that for me began at the very basic genesis of police aviation!

It's a tragedy that cost cutting (and nothing else!) has led to the second rate policing we have now.

But just because I want the guys on board, and those below to be as safe as they can possibly be, don't you dare corrupt that into painting me as just another ignoramus with no appreciation!

MAN777

31st Dec 2013, 16:34

Not NPAS I know but has anyone heard anything about the grounding of Manchester's Defender, it doesnt seem to have been reported anywhere.

tigerfish

31st Dec 2013, 17:22

The post above from Whitehead 06 will be his last. I have now reverted to the original title of tigerfish.

Some longer service ppruners will recall that I was a fairly regular subscriber from about 2003 to 2011 when circumstances dictated my demise. I retained an interest as Whitehead06.

The battle with NPAS was lost on the plains of the economy, and we must now do what we can to make the best of what we have got. I have no bitterness towards NPAS and indeed do recognise that it is now mainly staffed by those who really do see the wood for the trees.

Accordingly I will do whatever I can, in any way that I can, to assist in the success of NPAS as it faces a continued & troubled future. Together we might all succeed in getting what we want.

tigerfish TF:)

SilsoeSid

31st Dec 2013, 17:33

Accordingly I will do whatever I can, in any way that I can, to assist in the success of NPAS as it faces a continued & troubled future.

Wise words TF, let me start the New Year with my contribution;

Postcode Finder- UK (http://www.postoffice.co.uk/postcode-finder)

mbriscoe

2nd Jan 2014, 18:43

There was a PR campaign in Scotland some years ago, the press were told that the Strathclyde helicopter would be patrolling roads in Northern and Central areas (I think). TV news had pictures of the helicopter somewhere in the Highlands but I don't know anyone who ever saw it.

I think some warning signs appeared but can't remember where, possibly on the A85 where there is a problem with motorcycles having fatal RTAs, usually with no other vehicle involved.

MightyGem

28th Jan 2014, 20:45

Back in July of last year, Coconutty said:
It think it will be VERY interesting to find out, once everyone has joined NPAS,
by way of Freedom of Interest Requests, just how much each force is paying for NPAS,
and for how many hours cover, and compare this with what was being paid and the hours flown pre-NPAS

Having now retired, I offer these figures, obtained by Freedom Of Information(FOI) requests.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/ScreenShot2014-01-28at212447_zpsf55b4f69.png

Some things that stand out from the pre NWAOG/NPAS budgets are GMP’s relatively low costs and North Wales’ extraordinarily high budget, especially compared to Lancs who had the same number of budgeted hours. I wonder what’s changed so remarkably that they’ve managed to save £600000 with NPAS? Still, I expect the North Wales Council Tax payers are happy with the savings.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/ScreenShot2014-01-28at212505_zps75184dbf.png

Total savings for the North West are £M1.22, some 0.08% of the total 2012/2013 North West Police budget. You could add another £730000 saving a year for Merseyside if the lease of their old aircraft is taken into account.

In the period 2010-2011, Merseyside and Lancs overflew their budgeted hours with the others just under theirs.

In the first 6-9months of the NWAOG, there was a sharp drop in hours flown/incidents attended across the board of about 30%. This was, sort of, understandable for Merseyside, having lost their aircraft, but seemed strange for the others where nothing much had changed apart from how aircraft were tasked. Anecdotal evidence suggested that Merseyside bobbies were deciding that it wasn’t worth asking for an aircraft, as it was taking too long to get a response. Perhaps that was the same for the other forces.

When Merseyside was asked if they were aware of this, and were they happy, they replied that they were as the aircraft wasn’t going to tasks that weren’t worthwhile. Well, if the various FIMs, CIMs, duty Supt/Insp/Sgts etc had taken our advice in the past, then we wouldn’t have gone to tasks that weren’t worthwhile! Of course, NPAS has stopped all that, haven't they? :hmm:

As you can see, in 2012-2013 only GMP and Cheshire reached and in fact passed their budgeted hours. GMP probably because of Op Chess, and Cheshire probably because they now have access to Air Support for 24 hours a day. The others are continuing the trend that started with the NWAOG when hours flown in support of and incidents attended were down by around 30%. However, for the year 2013-2014, upto October 2013, all were on track to achieve the hours. Remember that’s hours flown in support of each force, not the hours flown by each aircraft.

So, as they say; they are lies, damned lies and statistics, and people will make what they will from statistics. You can make from them what you will.

Regards,
MG(Retired)

airpolice

29th Jan 2014, 04:43

Might Gem,

Having now retired,

When was this?

Coconutty

29th Jan 2014, 09:05

Thought I'd just pop back in ..... thanks for those figures Mighty Gem :ok:

Am I correct in thinking that the various forces involved now pay NPAS
for the number of hours "budgeted" for, but they don't get any refund if those hours are not flown ?

If so then the figures are very revealing indeed ! ( Wonlt bire you with the Maths ).

I await similar reports from other "regions" ( especially one a bit closer to home ),
where I've heard that a LOT more is now being spent under NPAS
for the same number of "budgeted" hours, to see just how many hours are actually received !

Predicition : Next year each force will want to cut their budgets. :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

Thomas coupling

29th Jan 2014, 13:25

MightyGem - congrats on getting safely to the winning line! Enjoy your retirement old boy!

Ref the stats: I thought Merseyside didnt have an air support after NPAS started????

MightyGem

29th Jan 2014, 15:28

When was this?
Jan 20th. :ok:

Am I correct in thinking that the various forces involved now pay NPAS
for the number of hours "budgeted" for, but they don't get any refund if those hours are not flown ?
I believe they pay for the budgeted hours, but I've no idea if they get a refund. The way that they are billed seems a bit off as well. If the Cheshire aircraft is over Southport doing a job for Merseyside, Merseyside would get billed until they land back at Hawarden.

If, when still over Southport, they are given a task for Cheshire in, say Chester, then Cheshire Police start paying the moment the aircraft completes the Merseyside task and leaves Southport on the way to Chester. So Cheshire are paying for an extra 15/20 minutes flying time, even though Chester's less than 5 minutes from Hawarden, and Merseyside don't have to pay for the trip back to Hawarden. We were on task over Accrington, north of Manchester, and then were tasked to Chester, so Cheshire picked up a bill for the return transit.

Ref the stats: I thought Merseyside didnt have an air support after NPAS started????
They do, it's just covered by all the other aircraft on the basis of the nearest aircraft gets the job.

Brilliant Stuff

31st Jan 2014, 18:29

No refund on the hours.....

MightyGem

31st Jan 2014, 20:11

So, any extra charge for overflying then?

Brilliant Stuff

2nd Feb 2014, 14:11

That's what I remember...

helihub

3rd Feb 2014, 22:53

Police helicopter pilot speaks out over 'downgraded' air support in Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire (http://www.thecomet.net/news/police_helicopter_pilot_speaks_out_over_downgraded_air_suppo rt_in_hertfordshire_and_bedfordshire_1_3281270)

No smoke without fire?

G0ULI

4th Feb 2014, 00:45

Since Herts and Beds are reported to have signed up to NPAS on the understanding that support would be supplied by the Met and given that the Met have decided not to be part of NPAS, it would appear that Herts and Beds are at liberty to reinstate their old police helicopter service due to contract conditions not being met.

It will never happen though because the wording of such agreements is full of woolley terms and conditions that will obligate Herts and Beds to pay a contribution to NPAS whether or not they run an independent service of their own. So it can never represent good value for money.

Whenever politicians get involved you always end up with half the service for double the money.

RotaryWingB2

4th Feb 2014, 06:11

What makes you think the met aren't part of NPAS? (Or going to be).

PANews

4th Feb 2014, 22:14

November is a long time ago in news terms.

Since then I have spoken to 'The Met' and confirmed that joining NPAS is merely delayed. At that time [last month] the delay was to October but the engineering is more of a sticking point in that six months ago the Met engineering was doomed to go in March. That will not happen in March or October so may prove the biggest headache for NPAS overall.

Of course another week or so has passed so even October may have its doubters by now!

Meanwhile the Met are dealing with some calls to Hertfordshire [spitting distance from Lippitts] and available on the 24 hour call out option, which no doubt keeps their immediate neighbours happy as a pair of turbines always sounds better at 3am when repeated more regularly.

The aspect I do not yet grasp is...... if London policing consumes 3,300 hours per year from 3 aircraft that should in fact be more in number where on earth is the spare capacity to serve Herts and Beds supposed to come from?

Putting in 135s in place of the 145s might improve availability of the three airframes [because they are far more efficient and modern] but at hundreds of hours the nominal air support requirement of the former Chiltern north way outstrips the claim that the 'Met will cover'

Brilliant Stuff

5th Feb 2014, 20:00

PANews you nailed it the MET are flat out with Police work in London to the degree they have to decline a fair percentage of it. How can you then add more work outside of London.....

Also the MET don't do Casevac.

SilsoeSid

16th Feb 2014, 08:56

Eye in sky artwork lands prize for Robert « Express & Star (http://www.expressandstar.com/editors-picks/2014/02/13/eye-in-sky-artwork-lands-prize-for-robert/)

Eye in sky artwork lands prize for Robert
It is the eye in the Midlands sky which usually helps to catch criminals and give an overview of major incidents.
But now the stunning views photographed aboard the West Midlands Police helicopter have helped inspire one artist to land a prestigious prize.

Spot the mistake :E

Thomas coupling

16th Feb 2014, 16:34

It's in colour?
It's not Robert?
It's nairobi?

Art of flight

16th Feb 2014, 19:56

West Mids don't OWN a helicopter?

SilsoeSid

16th Feb 2014, 20:55

All very good answers, but not what I'm after, perhaps you need a clue?

…… after the dancing on ice results :8

mbriscoe

28th Feb 2014, 12:54

I know NPAS is an organisation for England and Wales police forces, but was there ever any consideration of including the Scottish helicopter (originally Strathclyde). As an outsider it would seem better and more economical to just have the one source as well as common standards and equipment.

Art of flight

28th Feb 2014, 13:59

NPAS takes the principle of mutual aid and nearest suitable aircraft attends the next job, 20 minutes to 98% of the population and all that. The problem with Scotland is that it's just the one aircraft for a huge area and it couldn't become part of NPAS without really skewing the criteria. The nearest back up would be Newcastle and they're already very busy.

So, no, a tie in with Scotland wouldn't offer NPAS anything in return.

SilsoeSid

28th Feb 2014, 19:56

Three Wheels on my Wagon - YouTube

volrider

2nd Mar 2014, 10:11

Decent picture but I have better one......:ok:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/volrider/volrider008/photo_zps8e6acf10.jpg

volrider

2nd Mar 2014, 10:23

I see this story has popped up again, bit like a certain part of the subjects anatomy!!!
Surely if true this could be classed as misconduct in a public office?

Here is the link and I quote the last few lines....

C/Supt Ian Whitehouse | unProfessional Standards Department | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.upsd.co.uk/csupt-ian-whitehouse/)

Since this page was published almost nine months ago, news has reached us of another alleged peccadillo of Whitehouse’s involving a National Police Air Service colleague in a London hotel. It is not known if one or both were on duty at the time

Art of flight

2nd Mar 2014, 13:19

It will be a great shame if the handfull of quality people trying to steer NPAS through a difficult start-up period are derailled by those with their snouts in the trough. To my mind, giving NPAS to one force was bound to lead to some square pegs being rammed into round holes rather than recruiting openly for such positions. The public expect better from senior officers.

airpolice

2nd Mar 2014, 13:22

The public expect better from senior officers.

I don't think that they do.

Perhaps most of the public expect that senior officers earning two grand a week are only interested in getting a better seat on the gravy train.

SilsoeSid

2nd Mar 2014, 14:12

Blimey!
Some very interesting links from that page!

Exclusive: Probe after steam rises at police gym - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/general-news/exclusive-probe-after-steam-rises-at-police-gym-1-4460540)
DCI Elizabeth Belton (http://www.upsd.co.uk/dci-elizabeth-belton/)

Mrs Whitehouse had been tipped off about the affair by a national newspaper journalist and, also, about the fact that the Killingbeck debacle was not the first time that her husband had been caught ‘at it’ by other police officers on undercover surveillance. Belton and Ian Whitehouse had been found, some months earlier, having sex on duty around 35 miles away from both her and Whitehouse’s respective bases, at South Elmsall, almost in South Yorkshire Police’s area.

Last night a spokeswoman said the officers had not been disciplined, but an investigation had begun into whether there had been a “breach of professional behaviour”.

However;
Sex scandal senior officers escape rap from West Yorkshire Police (http://www.scribd.com/doc/106525541/Sex-scandal-senior-officers-escape-rap-from-West-Yorkshire-Police)

On April 18th this year the Yorkshire Post were tipped off by uPSD about a serious incident concerning three West Yorkshire Police officers: C/Supt Whitehouse, C/Insp Belton and Sgt Beddis. The following day a front page story headlined ‘Probe after steam rises at police gym’ shocked and dismayed the Post’s readers. It also remains one of the most visited pages on the newspaper’s website. More shocking is that we can now reveal that none of those three officers face either criminal prosecution or meaningful disciplinary sanction concerning the alleged offences of criminal damage, affray, section47 assault or discreditable conduct concerning an incident that began in the sauna at Killingbeck police station.

For goodness sake, isn't it terrible that in these times of austerity, there is a police station with a sauna!!

We're not allowed a cooker on which to prepare our meals, despite being 24 hours; not able to have a tv aerial, let alone a satellite dish, due to planning permissions; not allowed any form of fitness kit because it needs controlled access and useage training, (even if it is to allow preparation for the officers fitness tests); then again, we haven't asked for a sauna ... yet :E

SilsoeSid

2nd Mar 2014, 17:51

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/212PANewsDecember2013.pdf

The National Police Air Service has awarded the contract to deliver a police role equipped fixed-wing surveillance aircraft to Airborne Technologies of Wiener Neustadt, Austria.
Keen to explore the opportunities presented by the new generation of fixed wing aircraft, through conducting a 6-month operational trial, NPAS decided to add a fixed-wing aircraft to their helicopter-dominated fleet.

Do it right the first time (http://www.airbornetechnologies.at/index.php/latest-news-release2/and-the-npas-bid-goes-to)

Who else was in contention for the contract?

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/image_zps1759077b.jpg (http://s52.photobucket.com/user/silsoesid/media/image_zps1759077b.jpg.html)

MightyGem

3rd Mar 2014, 06:19

To get back to the flying side of NPAS, I hear that the Hawarden cab has been offline for a sick pilot because NPAS couldn't supply a relief. Come on guys, this was a pre planned op. You knew it was coming.

Wouldn't have happened with contract pilots.

Efficient and effective.

volrider

3rd Mar 2014, 07:58

I think NPAS failings are typical of Police Management failings, they really have no clue on man management, forward planning, sadly the list goes on.
I agree that not planning for sick leave is disgraceful and proves my point. The lack of cover at certain times of the day and then when a user who pays for 1400 hours a year cant get the support due to the aircraft being out on a task elsewhere is also bad planning....
The best result would have been to cut out these failed managers and put the service in the hands of a private company who has the experience of running aircraft, systems and logistics. It's the only way forward

Art of flight

3rd Mar 2014, 08:33

I do remember in the early days of NPAS planning being briefed that this sort of situation was 'planned in'. Sounds odd at first, but what they've had to go with due to funding (or lack of it ) is a rigid structure of pilot numbers and soak up the fact that at times when sickness occurs, the next nearest aircraft will attend (even if it's not on shift yet in the case of planned early morning ops). We all know in practice that's a system with very thin cover for coping with unforeseen pilot shortage, and I know personally that during the planning of NPAS, those at the top wanted more back-up built in , it just couldn't be afforded.

volrider

3rd Mar 2014, 08:48

Whats the old saying....Failing to plan is planning to fail.....

SilsoeSid

3rd Mar 2014, 20:40

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/215PANewsMarch2014.pdf

In response to the 'Comet' article in Feb 2014;
Superintendent Richard Watson, from NPAS, said: “NPAS continues to deliver a cost- effective service, balancing the need to save money against the requirement of a quickly deployable asset. It is anticipated NPAS will save up to £15 million a year compared to previous arrangements for police air support.The Comet (http://www.thecomet.net/news/police_helicopter_pilot_speaks_out_over_downgraded_air_suppo rt_in_hertfordshire_and_bedfordshire_1_3281270?usurv=skip)

volrider

4th Mar 2014, 00:08

They are incompetent. With all the cost cutting I do hope that Whitehouse allegedly bedding a fellow officer in a hotel used similar cost cutting methods and travelled in a cheaper rental car and used a travel lodge for the deed....just in the spirit of keeping overheads down...:ok:

Nail The Dream

4th Mar 2014, 07:03

It's not good enough to just reduce the costs by using cheap accommodation etc, I hope she also received "a more effective servicing" :oh:

Nail

volrider

4th Mar 2014, 08:31

I wonder to comply with fairness and purchasing rules did he put out "her" servicing for tender or did he go for in house servicing? :E

SilsoeSid

4th Mar 2014, 08:35

Was the room, like the service ...
... by the hour?

volrider

4th Mar 2014, 08:47

Hope he worked out the "thrust to weight ratio" prior to any manoeuvres performed.....

SilsoeSid

4th Mar 2014, 08:52

You'd like to think that a quick power check was done beforehand in order to ensure endurance and to confirm that there was enough oomph to get in and out of any tight places.

yme

4th Mar 2014, 22:06

The problem isn't at the coal face, must be elsewhere?

volrider

5th Mar 2014, 10:02

I do think though that NPAS which is the provider for Police Services to the public via helicopters should be accountable for their officers, C/Supt Whitehouse is a dubious person to hold a position of seniority due to the following: Lack of Morale fibre.

Moral Fibre is defined as the capacity to do what is right, no matter what the circumstance. A business person with strong moral fiber, for example, would decline a bribe, and put his self interests aside for the benefit of the company and its shareholders. A parent with strong moral fiber does whatever it takes to help their kids succeed, even if it means they have to make sacrifices. A person with moral fiber does not do things to intentionally harm others, and when given the opportunity, does things to help the less fortunate.

So which ever way you look at it he lacks Moral Fibre as he was not honest to his wife at least! He did not do the right thing by giving into temptation.... Once the door is open then one thing can lead to another, so in my view he has shown discreditable conduct and should not hold office.....

Senior Pilot

5th Mar 2014, 11:44

This is heading toward becoming a JetBlast thread.

Is that what you want?

volrider

5th Mar 2014, 12:52

I think it's quite relevant to whats going on, all this is in the press and there are questions that really need answering, but that's just my opinion.

yme

5th Mar 2014, 18:00

I think most off us would just like Air Support back and done the way it should be done, headed by professionals with an interest in Policing from above.
:uhoh:

Digital flight deck

6th Mar 2014, 12:23

I suspect that will never happen. In fact it may get a whole lot worse.

SilsoeSid

7th Mar 2014, 08:03

I think the earlier posts are bringing up the question of integrity.
In days gone by, I remember that anything someone did that may lead them to being vulnerable to coercion was frowned & actioned upon at the highest levels.

The sauna incident is in the open and known about by all concerned, however what else may be in a cupboard somewhere? If the last paragraph of one of the linked stories is anything to go by, surely some serious questions need asking about what is going on within NPAS.

Anyone know what the C/Supt is directly responsible for, and what contracts or appointments he may have been involved with as far as NPAS is concerned?

Oh, on a different note, can anyone confirm the total number of people that work in the Despatch and Flight Monitoring Office?

Art of flight

7th Mar 2014, 09:08

Sid,

The proposal was 6 supervisors and 30 operators to cover all regions, most, if not all, visited a unit in the SE region for famil and a well known contributor on here and a couple of other TFOs went there for a few nights to 'induct' them. There was talk of some cross-desking to keep staff numbers down, but not sure if that happens. Total cost of staff there at projected around £800,000 pa when on-costs are included.

Filtre de fadaises

7th Mar 2014, 09:15

C'est tous un tas de merde.

This is a business that's meant to be making significant savings, but seems unable to concentrate on the job in hand. Police helicopters have always attracted high-profile attention from the media and general public, with children & adults alike getting excited whenever they get the chance to see one close-up. Whilst the introduction of a new machine has previously been akin to a Chief Constable saying "look, I've got a newer/smarter/bigger appendage in my arsenal", that excitement may have translated across to others (newer to the game) more literally!

I'd love to see the accounts, but would find it quite difficult to believe any claims of financial, operational or manpower efficiencies.

Repeat first sentence.

SilsoeSid

7th Mar 2014, 13:59

36 people! That's equivalent to the full manning (personning) of 2 air units, or twice as many to man (person) one, isn't it?

£800k, isn't that more than the savings made that forced the closure of the Cambridge ASU, that resulted in that huge gap, that resulted in a 135 having to go into Lippitts Hill?
Cambridge News (http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Cash-strapped-police-ditch-force-helicopter-28062011.htm)

Makes you wonder how air support managed to cope with dispatch and flight monitoring before :suspect:

Art of flight

7th Mar 2014, 14:22

The theory at the time was, 1 supervisor per shift, 1 dispatcher per region plus someone to spell for VDU/meal breaks, 3 shifts on, 2 shifts on days off, leave, training, sickness etc..

I see Suffolk have just decided to amalgamate their control room with Norfolk at Wymondham in Norfolk to save cash, so there's no going back now....

SilsoeSid

7th Mar 2014, 15:22

A supervisor, supervising 5 regional dispatchers and 1 filler in; 7 persons per shift.
I wonder how that dispatcher to asset ratio compares to urban force control rooms and control rooms such as CMPG. Isn't that like, even at the busiest time if the day/ night, a single CMPG dispatcher just having to look after 4 cars, or a force control room 4 officers?

Nail The Dream

7th Mar 2014, 17:34

... plus someone to spell ...

I'd have thought that they should ALL be able to spell ? :oh:

Nail

yme

7th Mar 2014, 19:17

I wander what would happen if the units responded to calls on a common area talk group without the need to go through a dispatch?

SilsoeSid

7th Mar 2014, 20:52

I wander what would happen if the units responded to calls on a common area talk group without the need to go through a dispatch?

... There would be a lot of people being told how thin the ice they were stood on is and that it was melting so fast they needn't worry about getting their shoes wet, as that ice is in an early sublimation phase.

MightyGem

7th Mar 2014, 22:07

The control room does a good job at flight following, but little else. Jobs coming through with little or no detail, not even simple stuff like a talkgroup or postcode.

Each Police radio/control room just needs to know there nearest aircraft, and call them direct. If they are already on a job, they can refer them to the next aorcraft. Simples.

SilsoeSid

8th Mar 2014, 08:16

The control room does a good job at flight following,

Yes one would like to think so!
I'd hate to think that if an aircraft was to go down, either intentionally or not, that they didn't know where it was ;)

MightyGem

8th Mar 2014, 10:45

Yes, I suppose I should have added "as long as it's not too complicated. Anyone know if a crashex has been done yet.

We had to do 3 at Merseyside before they got it right. First one we resorted to pressing the the Airwaves emergency button after nobody had noticed that we hadn't called on the ground after 15 mins.

The second time, a patrol turned up at Woodvale, got into the office, but wouldn't come out onto the dark airfield, where we were sat shutdown, because it was an airfield and there might be aircraft about.

SilsoeSid

8th Mar 2014, 11:07

Oh well, its early days :eek:

There's a nice piece in last Decembers PAN …. how many was there supposed to be per shift? 1 supervisor, 5 regional dispatchers and a spare? :suspect:

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/212PANewsDecember2013.pdf

Art of flight

8th Mar 2014, 12:08

Good article from Decembers PAN Sid, Looks like the control room was built for an era when there was much more crime, or at least to the perceived required manning levels! Seems lately more reality is setting in as to what NPAS can afford, and the end result the forces get.

Brilliant Stuff

11th Mar 2014, 20:14

They should know where the aircraft are since they are being tracked.....hence the odd call, why did you go that way???

volrider

11th Mar 2014, 21:26

Is there any truth in the fact that NPAS are having to go hand in cap to the Govt as they are £8 million in the red despite budget cuts, this no doubt will lead to more cutbacks of airframes and bases?
I heard also that WMP who had a budget of around £1.7 million when they owned and operated their aircraft are now paying £2.4 million for the same hours ( when they can get aircover!) for a service and they own nothing!!
Now thats a deal....you can hear the salesman..." yes sir we will take your car off you and instead of paying £170 a month running costs we will give you one to rent for £240 a month, however we can't promise you can have it when you need it as someone might need the shopping fetching in Taunton"

Ummm the WMP negotiator of that deal should be down the job shop......
Of course if all the above is true :E

SilsoeSid

12th Mar 2014, 01:28

If you set up a business in order to save £x million in a given period, yet end up -£y million at the end of that period, does that actually mean that you have failed by a total of £y+x million for that period?

Art of flight

12th Mar 2014, 09:11

Reading the PANews article and others related to it from NPAS spokesman, it occurred to me that a very important and fundamental fact had been lost in the implementation of the control of aircraft tasking.

The report refers to the borderless trial conducted by the east anglian consortium or Cambs, Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk (and Kent) that was designed to prove that NPAS was the way forward. The trial was actually a one month version (2 1/2 aircraft), followed a year later by a 3 month version (3 1/2 ac). Unfortunately the 3 month trial was blighted by the loss of one aircraft worth of duty time because of servicing and unserviceability.

The first trial was simple in that one TFO was acting as 'control' at one base, covering requests from 3 forces, this required no extra staff or management. the aircraft would respond on a common talkgroup to requests from any of the 3 forces, often agreeing between aircraft things such as remaining endurance, closest to the job factoring in wind etc. The controlling TFO listened to the talkgroup and acted as the hub of the whole operation and referee. A very simple method of control allowing flexibility, expert opinion, and very fast response, such as " police 13 don't lift for that we're just finished here and will be there in 10 minutes and you're 15 minutes away". True borderless tasking.

The second trial expanded the area to 5 forces and included Kent (no aircraft) setting up a sub control room (with TFO supervision at the start)
Each force was required to provide tasking to the control room via email/fax/telephone, the control room them emailed/telephoned/radio'd a unit to task an aircraft. Lines were drawn on a map to decide on 50/50 situations rather than county boundaries. The trial highlighted difficulties with comms and the fact that the busy counties could very quickly suck the whole effort into one corner of the 5 county area. The deployment of aircraft required the crew to land at the nearest ASU base after the task to save transit time ( a sort of Russian Roulette of were's the next task coming from), so very quickly aircraft ended up 'out of position', unable to perform post task admin until returning to home base at the end of the shift. The implementation of PAS not only removed aircraft from service, it removed crucial bases with fuel, thereby negating the proven principle of saving on transit time and fuel/flight servicing time (aircraft hours). The method of control has lost the flexible principle of the first trial and I suggest the confidence of the police officers at large. Most NPAS aircraft in regions that have lost aircraft and bases now have a bigger 'transit to on job flying hours ratio', and to make it worse, have to go all the way back to home base to get fuel before being ready for further tasking

SilsoeSid

12th Mar 2014, 10:07

My record so far is a request to attend a job 170 miles away!

Art of flight

12th Mar 2014, 17:18

I certainly couldn't better that, but have been asked to take people from east anglia to Newcastle.
Sunday nights were 'fun' once two units folded, Kent never had an aircraft and the other counties machine off for servicing. 8000+ sq miles with one aircraft and 2 places for fuel......the next task seemed always to be further than the fuel state would allow without going back to base for fuel first. Lots of hours, and few results.....lots of fending off of negative comments from the control rooms when told it would be more than an hour before we could get back to base refuel and get to their job. Just to throw in a another spanner, how many units 'allow' rotors running refuels?

volrider

12th Mar 2014, 17:32

Seems like its all working wonderfully much better than before when everyone was independent..... The bosses will say as they scurry around protecting their own @rses :}

MightyGem

15th Mar 2014, 20:53

They should know where the aircraft are since they are being tracked
Not necessarily. The GPS radio often has to turned off/on so the the control room can get a position.

Brilliant Stuff

16th Mar 2014, 09:57

Mighty Gem yupp there is always that problem...

Digital flight deck

29th Mar 2014, 11:00

Are the NPAS accounts going to be published at the end of the financial year, or indeed were they published after 1 year of operating in October. If so where?

Ivor E Tower

29th Mar 2014, 11:13

If they do get published you might find them in the "fiction" section of Waterstones or even the "fantasy" section. :)

MightyGem

30th Mar 2014, 21:07

Things don't seem to be getting any better. One of the North West units was offline more than it was online over the past couple of weeks, due to a pilot and Observers being off sick. No relief pilot available and OT not being authorised for the Observers. :ugh: :ugh:

MightyGem

30th Mar 2014, 21:22

Are the NPAS accounts going to be published at the end of the financial year, or indeed were they published after 1 year of operating in October. If so where?

NPAS's Statement Of Accounts for 2012-2013 can be found here, starting on Page 89.
http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/sites/default/files/files/publication-scheme/pcc_statement_of_accounts_12_13_300913.pdf

I'll leave it to someone with a bigger brain than mine to figure out what they mean. :)

Digital flight deck

31st Mar 2014, 09:11

Any accountants out there that can decipher the accounts?

SilsoeSid

31st Mar 2014, 15:30

I can now see why they needed to come up with the post of Creative Director :E
George Whitbread was selected for the post, anyone know of him? ;)

George Whitebread takes up the new post of Creative Director

SilsoeSid

1st Apr 2014, 08:53

Having uploaded all my training records, checks and qualification paperwork to GCAP, after being told the system is going all digital and that the electronic office was now here, why was I wrong in shredding all the paperwork after uploading it?

SilsoeSid

1st Apr 2014, 23:14

Google; 'NPAS Freedom of Information'
http://www.cambs.police.uk/about/foi/disclosure/PUB0224-2013.pdf

REQUEST REFERENCE NO: 0224/2013
Q1. A police helicopter attended 1230 police tasks (tasks would include Intelligence gathering, searching for missing persons, public order monitoring, aerial photography at collision or crime scenes, etc) in Cambridgeshire during the period April 1, 2011, to March 31, 2012.
Q2. Persons arrested total - 181 persons.

REQUEST REFERENCE NO: 0226/2013
NPAS were in operation between 01/10/2012 and 31/03/2013
Q1. An NPAS helicopter attended 322 police tasks in Cambridgeshire during the period April 1, 2012, to March 31, 2013.
Q2. Persons arrested total - 17 persons.

http://www.cambs-police.co.uk/about/foi/disclosure/PUB0227-2013.pdf

Please can you tell me the average response time of an NPAS helicopter to Cambridgeshire (the time from being requested to arriving on scene) between April 1, 2012, and March 31, 2013.

RESPONSE
From Information provided to Cambridge Constabulary by NPAS Average response time 35 minutes and 26 seconds
Notes. 1. NPAS in operation between 01/10/2012 and 31/03/2013
2. These response times only relate to the 'none quick time' responses that go through the standard NPAS call process system. Urgent calls can be responded to via the helicopter ie. without the accepted time.
3. The 35 minutes and 26 seconds relates to 30 flights that the 'request time' and the time 'on scene' are present on the log.

jayteeto

2nd Apr 2014, 06:10

So, if you are in a car in Cambridge and don't fancy stopping, its worth a pop at trying to get away. You are probably never going to get a helicopter on the case unless you are really unlucky.
Average response times are statistician porn; if you have a couple of incidents where the helicopter is in the vicinity, the couple of 45 minute responses get covered up..........

Art of flight

2nd Apr 2014, 10:40

I think the case of Cambridgeshire highlights the problem that many counties without an ASU base experience these days. They're far enough away that a proportion of jobs that used to get a response, don't get off the starting blocks as experience has shown that due to the longer transit time, the chances of a result have diminished. It has become a self fullfilling prophecy.

Add that to the fact that a proportion of calls for attendance will find the nearest aircraft already on task in its 'own county' and with insufficient fuel to divert to Cambridgeshire and have time to do the job properly without going back to the nearest ASU for fuel first, and you have a second class service compared to what was there before.
Not having a go at NPAS here.....Cambs were struggling to afford the cost of a stand alone ASU before NPAS and like Norfolk, may have folded anyway.

MarkFour

19th Apr 2014, 11:28

Anyone working a 6/4/7/4 routine. How is it working from a FS point of view?

Fortyodd2

19th Apr 2014, 13:21

Mark,
Plus point - every 3rd weekend off.
Minus point - always finishing on a late is tiring. I never feel fully rested by the time I come back to days again. We used to do 7/5/5/4 - transitioning to 6/4/7/4 meant we lost 44 hours rest in order to gain one 10 hour shift. The first days off are really "rest" days rather than "off".
We opted for it as the "least worst" rather than the best.

Art of flight

19th Apr 2014, 13:45

Started off on a 3/3/3 system, now that was cr@p!

serf

19th Apr 2014, 18:56

Started off on a 3/3/3 system, now that was cr@p!

Do the PSNI still have this roster?

Brilliant Stuff

20th Apr 2014, 21:03

3/3/3 is crap though that doesn't mean 6/4/7/4 is any better!!

6=3days + 3nights / 4 days off / 7= 3days +4nights / 4 days off

Those 4 days off aren't real off days since you finish at 0300hrs in the morning of day 1 and then you start again at 0900hrs on day 5.....in this short space of time you are trying to readjust your circadian rhythm only to throw it out again shortly there after.

The CAA was asked about the fact how healthy it is to interfere with one's circadian rhythm every three days......the answer was there haven't been no issues so far therefore carry on.

The old roster was fab instead of changing ones circadian rhythm every three days almost one changed it every 2 weeks, more healthier I would have thought???

I know for one thing a 747 captain wouldn't be allowed to work the NPAS roster that's for sure.

zorab64

21st Apr 2014, 09:16

The problem, from a business point of view, is that 7/5/5/4 requires two dropped shifts, and both Lates, which is "expensive" both to roster & fund. It does, however, have the advantage of a 3 week turnround, so you know where you are (take a look at the TFO rosters if you want a complete circadian co*k-up as well as personal planning pandemonium).

Whilst 6/4/7/4 is legal (better if both last Lates finish @0300); & also has the advantage of a 3 week turnround; it is less comfortable for the regular pilots as it requires them to fill all the Late shifts. It does mean that the business only needs to fill one Day shift per week, which is far easier to manage - the most uncomfortable thing depends on which day the dropped shift falls.

Some units have operated a system not far removed from this for 5+ years without problems, and a "lighter" version for many years before that. This latest iteration is the ultimate version in squeezing as much as possible out of the taxpayer pound, (which is sort-of what NPAS have been charged with, after all) and individuals do need to manage themselves. For those units that normally finish @ 0400 (except for 0300 last Lates) it's more uncomfortable than regular 03 finishes, but there are 6hr flying Late shifts, and there are foggy ones! There's little in the current climate that is as comfortable as it was 10 years ago and, whilst it's not brilliant, I'm with Art - better the Devil you know than 3/3/3! :eek:

I feel one of my brackets could be expanded a lot further, but would probably fill another whole thread!

J.A.F.O.

21st Apr 2014, 16:54

zorab

Your brackets, if you meant (take a look at the TFO rosters if you want a complete circadian co*k-up as well as personal planning pandemonium), could indeed be expanded massively, it's one of the reasons that I'm no longer JAFO or even JAFTFO.

There was absolutely no work/life balance at all and made me very, very tired.

Fortyodd2

21st Apr 2014, 18:36

Zorab,
I fully understand why NPAS went for the 6/4/7/4 and support everything you've posted above. It was important to us at the time that we kept the 3 week cycle but opted for 6/4/7/4 as the least worst on offer. Don't know yet if the latest "tweak" will change anything other than closing the changeover gap. I still find having my sleep pattern changed twice in 21 days, rather than once, and always finishing on a late to be very tiring and very poor for work life balance - no matter how "legal" it might be.

Brilliant Stuff

21st Apr 2014, 20:11

Cheers Zorab for explaining to the uninitiated what the set up is.

I never agreed with the roster the bobbies had to put up with. It's inhuman!!!!

As for the NPAS pilots roster in my humble opinion it's an accident waiting to happen. Glad to see a lot of pilots getting out of NPAS, one of the main reasons being the fatiguing roster.

As for saving money you get two line pilots for one HQ body. They have loads of HQ bodies......

Oh and as for really saving money in Police aviation there are no brackets big enough....

Please fly safe everyone in NPASland.

MightyGem

22nd Apr 2014, 19:09

And so it goes on. Aircraft in the North West offline over Easter to save on PH payments. Pilots taking leave with no relief pilots available.

And people ask if I miss going to work. :rolleyes:

John Eacott

22nd Apr 2014, 23:25

I never agreed with the roster the bobbies had to put up with. It's inhuman!!!!

When TOM was in the Met it was a fortnight morning shift, fortnight afternoon and a fortnight nights, with the usual two days off a week. That allowed the body clock to adjust much better than the current couple of days before changing.

Food for thought?

Brilliant Stuff

23rd Apr 2014, 19:58

John that sounds like a grown up roster.

Anyone with common sense you talk to or any medical professional will tell you the NPAS roster is fatiguing and therefore not healthy.

But it saves money after all and the bean counters etc. are not flying the machine so it must be alright.

How much does an accident cost again?

Anyway what do we know we only fly the things.....

Art of flight

24th Apr 2014, 08:31

Like any other cause of accidents, fatigue of police pilots will only be addressed when an accident has actually been proven to be caused largely by fatigue.:(
I've always found the most difficult part is staying awake on the drive home. The CAA FTL regulations are aimed at being fit to start the duty period, not the safe arrival home of the pilot at 0500hrs:ouch:

Nail The Dream

25th Apr 2014, 07:52

Like any other cause of accidents, fatigue of police pilots will only be addressed when an accident has actually been proven to be caused largely by fatigue.

Disagree - this IS already "addressed" by the FTL scheme, ( and CRM training ).

However, if pilots are becoming fatigued as a result of flying a certain shift pattern,
or from the workload during a single shift - to the extent that there is the potential for an "incident" to occur,
then perhaps it's time for the CAA to re-examine ( re-address ) this, and adjust the FTL limits accordingly ?

Nail

Art of flight

25th Apr 2014, 08:31

Well, addressing the issue with the FTL scheme and CRM training certainly seems adequate as no accidents have been proved to be caused by fatigue. So what's everyone moaning about? Lets leave it to the trusted system of waiting for an accident before looking hard at it.:uhoh:

handysnaks

25th Apr 2014, 11:30

On the one hand you can put in safety reports, flight safety reports or even chirps. On the other hand you can drip about it on pprune. I can't say that I would fancy the 7/4/6/4 but surely we're all professional enough to try and address it using the company system first........

Digital flight deck

25th Apr 2014, 11:41

The most cost effective FTL that gets every minute out of a pilot will always be the choice of the operator irrespective of fatigued and disgruntled pilots who will always come a poor second. Personally I don't see the 6/4/7/4 as being a particular poor FTL

R22 HEAVY

25th Apr 2014, 15:19

Well the good news is we can now all rest with the knowledge:

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/404295-sikorsky-pilotless-helicopter.html

tigerfish

8th May 2014, 16:26

Been out of the country for a couple of weeks but was expecting to have heard some news re the first big contracts awarded by NPAS. I think the Mid Life upgrade for the earlier 135's and the maintenance contracts are due about now.
Anyone heard anything? Can't find it on here.
TF

tigerfish

9th May 2014, 23:30

Have been told that Bond got the Re-ferb upgrade, but nothing re maintenance yet. Anyone heard?
Tf

SilsoeSid

12th May 2014, 19:39

Lots of activity aroung 'the green'.
Is there something going on or is there simply a course taking place?

I'd hate to think that an operational unit was being taken off line for an extended period, when there is supposed to be an NPAS training dept set up when required, that usually operates out of Moreton in t' Marsh utilising non operational aircraft.

SilsoeSid

14th May 2014, 19:31

Police Staff Jobs | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/recruitment/police-staff-jobs)

Base Manager
National Police Air Service (NPAS)
Central Region – Husbands Bosworth Base &
South East Region - Benson Base
Salary £32,547 - £35,427
Ref Number: XPC034
Closing date: 26 May 2014

West Yorkshire Police is the lead body in a national collaboration of Home Office Forces delivering air support across England and Wales as the National Police Air Service (NPAS). This is an exciting opportunity for the right people to make a significant contribution to the first national policing service. It is a chance to make a difference to the communities served by the Police throughout England and Wales, making them safe and feeling safer through the direction, development and delivery of the police capability from the air.

As part of our commitment to delivering a world-class service we are now looking to recruit 2 Base Managers within NPAS at the Benson Base, Wallingford, Oxon and the Husbands Bosworth Base, Sulby, Welford, Northamptonshire.

https://atsv7.wcn.co.uk/search_engine/jobs.cgi?SID=amNvZGU9MTQxNjE4MCZ2dF90ZW1wbGF0ZT02NTcmb3duZXI 9NTAyNzQwOSZvd25lcnR5cGU9ZmFpciZicmFuZF9pZD0wJnJlcXNpZz0xNDA wMDk1NTY5LTJkM2MyMTE3NzI0YTg3M2QzOGRmMWEzZmFiOTc1NzRhZmE3MTN lMDk=

I thought the HB post was filled, what happened?

Nail The Dream

15th May 2014, 15:24

I heard that someone had been appointed as Base Manager there,
but that was before their Training Course -
maybe they decided they didn't like the job after all and left ?

Interesting to see that the post is now open to Police Staff,
whereas before I think it was a Police Sergeant role :rolleyes:

Nail

tigerfish

16th May 2014, 07:44

Oh Dear! - Death from a thousand cuts!

Its getting less and less like a Police air service every day! Its no wonder that the guy on the beat no longer has any faith that the Helicopter will be there to help him out nowadays.

TF

J.A.F.O.

16th May 2014, 19:33

Nail The Dream

I think it's clear from the role profile and the details of the job that they're primarily expecting applications from former police officers.

taybird

16th May 2014, 20:13

Classic "jobs for the boys" - it's highly unlike a pure civvie will get the role. I bet a former observer / air operator will get it.

Aerodynamik

16th May 2014, 21:09

I hope you're right Taybird. The job should go to a former observer / air operator with all the relevant experience rather than a 'pure civvie'.

tigerfish

16th May 2014, 23:15

Harry, you seem to be suggesting that the service should be happy to deploy £6M of kit without ensuring that every i was dotted and every t was crossed!
And to suggest that its just a desk job just shows how little you understand that the job entails.
This is a Police Helicopter, granted not the well honed tool that it once was, but nevertheless still a vital tool in the Police armoury. Do not underestimate its value or the dedication of the crews that man it.
TF

Nail The Dream

17th May 2014, 06:19

Its just a desk job isn't it?

( I omitted your "Rolleyes" smiley in the quote on purpose ! )

The Roll is a LOT more than just a desk job -
Additionally, Base Managers are required to act as police flight crew when required to provide resilience to the TFO staff

( "Resilience" = covering for shortages in staff that have left, are off sick, or on Leave ).

I gather that it's "required" quite a lot at the moment at a number of Bases :ugh:

IMHO a Base Manager roll is definitley one for either a Police Officer,
or a former Police Officer, with an understanding of all the Policey things,
and should also be someone with considerable experience of Police Air Support,
such as a former TFO, and not someone appointed because they have the best C.V or,
as has been hinted at, is best mates with someone higher up the food chain !

Nail

SilsoeSid

18th May 2014, 20:35

Apparently 'a sum of money' has been spent to have an NPAS promotional video produced by a professional media company. Why they need a promotional video when the Home Office mandated the set up and most forces are already in, goodness knows.

Anyway, while we await this blockbusting production, despite the threats that were made after the NPAS 'Downfall' video was shown at the last symposium, I have been leaked the latest recruiting video. No names have been used, in order to protect ... ;)

bKCZRg4EveU

J.A.F.O.

19th May 2014, 09:58

NTD - Roll? Is lunch provided?

MightyGem

20th May 2014, 20:31

They'll also be needing another pilot, now that one of the Harwarden guys has banged out. :hmm:

airpolice

20th May 2014, 21:02

Dave, soon there's gonna be none of us old timers left!

SilsoeSid

20th May 2014, 22:22

Apparently there's a pilot selection process already occuring, anyone see an advert?
Not to mention the 'mysterious' observer course run for 4 people but only one place available. Was the drop out rate really expected to be that high, surely the Cranwell aptitude tests would have been cheaper!

Sloppy Link

21st May 2014, 06:15

Yep, it was on Flight Global with a closing date of the first week in May. It is pulled now, no details on locations etc.

Digital flight deck

21st May 2014, 11:06

SS

Not to mention the 'mysterious' observer course run for 4 people but only one place available. Was the drop out rate really expected to be that high,

What is so mysterious about this?

MightyGem

22nd May 2014, 20:50

Can someone confirm, or correct, the following please.

All English Police forces, except the MET, are now part of NPAS. North Wales is the only Welsh force to join so far.

Thanks

Sloppy Link

23rd May 2014, 07:36

They are not all in but have agreed to it, for example, Wilts come across at the end of the year, Dorset come across at the end of this month and so on.

MightyGem

23rd May 2014, 16:14

Thanks. Any more? Don't want to ask forces how much they are paying to NPAS if they haven't joined yet.

vortexadminman

23rd May 2014, 21:59

Landed yesterday on a HEMS job, close ish to London. Three bobbies and a Sgt and I had a chat…………..in two minutes NPAS had come into the conversation and guess what……They were def not fans of this new cost saving making it more efficient debacle. I can t use the words they said about NPAS because they are not printable. But as others have said the operational side is being crucified……….. not that the bean counters or ministers give a fat rats. As a Air Ambo pilot just saying what I hear.

MightyGem

24th May 2014, 11:09

And, what you hear is just about right.:(

Here's another. GMP used to have a fixed wing unit flying out of Manchester Airport. NPAS closed that, then decided to do a fixed wing trial, based down at Gloucester Staverton(I think). They then discovered that the allowances/accommodation costs for the bobbies involved in the trial were becoming a bit expensive. So they moved the trial...to Manchester Airport. :ugh:

SilsoeSid

24th May 2014, 16:22

I heard that the money saved by stopping overtime pay, resulting in single crewing becoming a regular occurrence (thereby reducing efficiency), and the public holiday manning reductions (reducing the number of ac available), would cover the fixed wing trial 'admin' costs :confused:

I also heard, from someone close to the home counties, that something wasn't quite right on the NPAS webpage National Police Air Service (NPAS) | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/npas)

zorab64

25th May 2014, 06:31

MG - I thought the FW trial was flying out of Benson a few weeks ago, although also heard a rumour it was running back to Manchester at the end of a shift, which didn't seem to make sense. However, if your understanding is correct, it ties in - but still seems a funny way to run a trial when the goal posts are moved within weeks of starting.
Whilst it doesn't really matter where it flies from, if it does come down to crew cost saving, it would seem someone may not have done their homework in the first place . . . nothing that hasn't seen before! :ugh: At least, having realised the error, something's actually been done about it in sensible time - shame reaction times aren't so fast in other areas.

Not surprisingly, it's unlikely anyone from the organisation will be able to confirm any of this, since communications are as first class as ever, I gather! :mad:

Vortex & SS - I've heard similar noises, although don't quite follow the relevance of your link, SS?

aeromys

25th May 2014, 07:46

To be fair, it wasn't NPAS that closed down GMP's fixed wing, it was the GMP CC, at great inconvenience and cost to NPAS who had been relying on the GMP staff and PAOC to run the trial. What with that, the RAF's refusal to let them work autonomously at Benson (so limited ops at night and weekends), GMP suddenly cancelling the pilot contract and staff (understandably) looking for new jobs, and teething problems with the new aircraft / equipment, it eventually made sense to move it back to Manchester.

SilsoeSid

25th May 2014, 16:46

Surely it negates the need for a trial if they have been used in police ops before?

In the words of Lieutenant The Hon. George Colthurst St Barleigh;

"Now, look here, you just stop that conchie talk right now, Private."

SilsoeSid

25th May 2014, 18:02

I wonder how many PCC's have looked at their collaboration agreements recently, poured themselves a coffee, then looked out the window.

Nail The Dream

27th May 2014, 08:58

I also heard, from someone close to the home counties, that something wasn't quite right
on the NPAS webpage National Police Air Service (NPAS) | West Yorkshire Police

Which "something" is not quite right then Sid ? ..... Are you sure it's not some thingS ?

NPAS will provide a national, borderless service making use of the nearest aircraft
meaning that the police service's response will, in many cases, be enhanced over current provision.

NPAS will provide an air service to 98% of the population of England and Wales within 20 minutes.

25 NPAS aircraft will be placed at 23 strategic locations that provide the operational capability
to deliver an enhanced service to the public with an aircraft being available 24 hours a day.

3 reserve aircraft will also be provided when aircraft are offline for maintenance to minimise reduction in service.
NPAS will deliver a more cost effective service ..... blah, blah, blah.
Under the National Collaboration Agreement for NPAS, blah, blah, blah .....
This ensures that NPAS is led and owned by the police service and delivers the operational benefits
and financial savings that have been presented to individual police authorities.

Nail

Art of flight

28th May 2014, 08:34

I guess the 'get out' that isn't on the website page list would say something like this.

NPAS will not have to prove to the public that any of the above points have ever been achieved.

aeromys

2nd Jun 2014, 17:15

Met announces joining NPAS in October

https://twitter.com/MPSinthesky/status/473479282543828992

SilsoeSid

2nd Jun 2014, 18:22

Phew, no more 4am trips to Milton Keynes and I'm looking forward to MPS discussing all those 'closest aircraft deployments' when a job comes in for a misper in Bath :ok:

meanttobe

3rd Jun 2014, 17:29

Bond Helicopters awarded contract for new police mission systems | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/27788#.U44FnIm9LCQ)

SilsoeSid

4th Jun 2014, 00:36

NPAS accountable manager, chief superintendent Ian Whitehouse, said: “The tendering process was lengthy. This is not just about putting a new camera in an aircraft. It is an entire mission systems upgrade providing a slick and efficient service delivery at value to the taxpayer. I look forward to working with Bond to ensure NPAS is recognised as a world leader in police aviation.”

The work will be carried out at Bond’s facilities in Staverton, and through NPAS’ fleet management it will not impact on the coverage of police helicopters across the country. The upgrades will mean the full NPAS fleet of 22 helicopters operates with the very latest technology, putting criminals on the back foot.

"Full NPAS fleet of 22" :eek:
Did someone, while being interviewed, say something about imminent cuts that they shouldn't have :suspect:

SilsoeSid

4th Jun 2014, 00:44

Aircraft and helicopter near collide above Liverpool city centre - Liverpool Echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/aircraft-helicopter-near-collide-above-7210884)

A police helicopter and a plane were within seconds of colliding above Liverpool’s iconic waterfront.

The light aircraft and the helicopter came within just 100ft of each other above Albert Dock, a near-miss report today revealed.

Investigators said the risk of collision was “extremely high” – with the twin-engined Piper plane passing “right in front” of the helicopter.

The incident, in the early evening of November 10, 2013, took place just days before a police helicopter crashed into a pub in Glasgow, killing 10.

The ECHO understands the aircraft were on a collision course with each other directly above Merseyside Police’s headquarters, Chavasse Park and the Albert Dock complex.

Art of flight

4th Jun 2014, 08:44

So, putting expensive new cameras in the aircraft will solve the problem of not being in the right place at the right time? It will certainly improve the thoroughness of the search once the offenders have left.:ugh:
The very old saying goes like this....if they're there, we've got a good chance of finding them, if they're not there (because it's taken ages to get there and they've left) we'll NEVER find them.

As for the near miss scenario, whilst GA plans flight along straight lines from A to B, with a mindset that anything unplanned (in the way) can't be part of the equation and adds to the fuel bill, police helicopters hovering into wind at a search scenes are vulnerable. Can't count the number of times in CAVOK that GA fixed wing has been unwilling to deviate or unaware of a 3 ton blue and yellow fixed object filling their windscreen and I've had to take avoiding action by flying out of the search. When you think about it, there aren't many aircraft in the UK hovering at 1000-3000' in broad daylight that aren't actually involved in a serious task, I'm not saying other aircraft don't have a right to be there, just think about why that helicopter is there and go around.

500e

4th Jun 2014, 11:11

25 NPAS aircraft will be placed at 23 strategic locations that provide the operational capability.
Surely that is 22 operational + 3 reserves another use of language to suggest a larger presence

SilsoeSid

4th Jun 2014, 11:36

NPAS Frequently Asked Questions | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/faqs)

10. Where are the new bases going to be located?

Under NPAS it is proposed that there will be twenty three air support bases at strategic locations that provide the operational capability to deliver an enhanced service. The NPAS base locations are:

Barton Moss, Greater Manchester
Benson, Oxfordshire
Birmingham Airport, Birmingham
Boreham, Essex
Bournemouth Airport, Bournemouth
Carr Gate, West Yorkshire
Durham Tees Valley Airport, Teeside
Exeter Airport, Exeter
Filton, Avon and Somerset
Halfpenny Green, Wolverhampton
Hawarden, North Wales
Honington, Suffolk
Humberside Airport, Humberside
Husbands Bosworth, Leicestershire
Lippitt’s Hill, Essex
Newcastle Airport, Newcastle
Pembrey, Dyfed-Powys
Redhill, Surrey
Rhuddlan, Denbighshire
Ripley, Derbyshire
Sheffield, South Yorkshire
St Athan, Glamorgan, South Wales
Warton, Lancashire

23 bases, 1 helicopter at each except for 2@ Boreham and 3@ Lippitt's, makes 26 operational. Add the 3 spare, and you have a total NPAS fleet of 29 helicopters :eek:

A further reduction of 7 helicopters makes a saving of ....... :{

Filtre de fadaises

5th Jun 2014, 09:14

Art identifies the problem that so many identified 3 & 4 years ago, but which were ignored by those who "knew better", but who had never operated in, or with, Air Support at the sharp end.

Sid, I understand that the numbers maybe skewed a little by the two 135 spares not likely to be available for some while? From what I read, and as soon as the upgrade programme starts, one will be at Staverton for upgrade (total programme likely to run for well over a year?) and the other unavailable as a spare, if it's being used at Boreham.
It all rather knocks the "spare" aircraft plans into a cocked hat, and therefore the country coverage. Being a little less precious about county borders in the past, within a region, proved to be a much more mature, flexible & easier to manage option, even if it was unlikely to have remained financially viable in its entirety.

misterbonkers

5th Jun 2014, 20:04

Don't panic captain Mannering!

It could just be a typo - the '22' refers to EC135s. Don't forget there are some 145s and 902s that aren't included in this round of upgrades.

MightyGem

5th Jun 2014, 20:09

It all rather knocks the "spare" aircraft plans into a cocked hat
Don't know about spare aircraft, but I understand that they could do with a few spare pilots. :rolleyes:

Nail The Dream

10th Jun 2014, 16:52

Does this mean that Sid's getting his iPad at last too ? :rolleyes:

Those Monitors must be very light compared to the Skyquest ones :8

Where'd they hide the Nitesun Controller ?

http://helihub.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/ec135-uk-police-interior.jpg

Nail

SilsoeSid

10th Jun 2014, 18:50

Have they been certified for use ..... like all the other gadgets getting dished out?
or b.
:E:eek::\:ouch:

zorab64

11th Jun 2014, 08:41

Harry O - not quite sure if you're typing tongue-in-cheek, or how familiar you are with 135 maintenance intervals, but all the NPAS machines should now have migrated to the 500/1000hr servicing intervals, unlike the 902s which require 100/200/300/400/500/600/800hr servicing, as well as a long annual!
The 135s have a few minor checks on ancilliary equipment, but they're easily completed at the bases, in a few hours in most cases, minimising downtime.

Not quite sure where you get the "902 long maintenance services" from. Unfortunately, probably due to the numbers in circulation, there's been little interest/money to initiate the type of maintenance reduction programmes that ECD/Airbus have done such a good job with over the last 10-15 years.

Can't speak for the 145, which is hampered by the vintage of the drive-train, I understand, and therefore requires a more exhaustive maintenance regime than it's little, but younger, brother. :ok:

Costs? You'd have to ask elsewhere.

Sky Sports

11th Jun 2014, 09:00

No wires or cables, must be a wifi system. Hope it doesn't interfere with the FADEC's!

Filtre de fadaises

11th Jun 2014, 11:04

"No wires or cables, must be a wifi system." Given it's an artist's impression to help "sell" their concept, they wouldn't want to show all the annoying (but normally necessary) cables etc, although the layout might allow some improved cable-hiding. Certainly the number of airframes involved will help to minimise/spread the cost per airframe of making it aesthetically tidier. There appear to be no floor rails or provision for tie-downs, therefore stretcher fitting or other carry-on equipment - although it might just have been too difficult/ not pretty/realistic enough for the photo-shopper to manage, but I'll bet they're still there?
It's a utility, rather than corporate aircraft, after all - though don't be at all surprised if those making the decisions aren't swayed by pretty pictures!

From a wireless point of view, I very much doubt that EASA/CAA have actually moved forward enough to allow it, especially if thinking about 3G, possible interference, and the number of radios they have on these machines.

"Costs? You'd have to ask elsewhere." Though likely to be higher than budgeted for, if the rumoured evidence of the last 18 months is anything to go by, I understand!

Emoticons & quotes not working for some reason?

SilsoeSid

12th Jun 2014, 07:38

:until now the Met's helicopters have operated independently of the National Police Air Service (NPAS), a centralised body coordinated from West Yorkshire. But a recent, much-protested decision means they are to be folded into the national unit on 1 October. Since NPAS was launched in 2012, there have been complaints from police forces that it is inefficient and overstretched, that the taxpayer has ended up paying more for a less capable service. It would be fair to say that nobody at Lippitts Hill is happy about the news.

"Put it this way," says Xxxx. "There are 20 PCs here and six of us have applied to leave." Xxxx has signed up for the dog section.

The problem, he says, is that an overstretched air service quickly becomes underused: officers stop calling on them. If London's helicopters are obliged to respond across a wider area, the increased transit times will rule out the sort of quick response that allows them to make a difference. "At 2am," he says, "we're the only helicopter south of Birmingham."

Not strictly true, but when the hour is right rest easy Met chaps, the Birmingham cab will still get the Dartmoor jobs !!!

I'm waiting to see if the rumours are true about where those 145's are going to end up :ok:

airpolice

12th Jun 2014, 07:42

Since NPAS was launched in 2012, there have been complaints from police forces that it is inefficient and overstretched,

Can anyone point me at a source for this?

Which Force has complained?

Filtre de fadaises

12th Jun 2014, 09:12

Don't forget this is a rumour site, Airpolice, & Sid believes Boreham are trying to operate two machines, one of which we understand is fill-in for otherwise thin coverage North of London. Result of complaints?? It would be difficult to come to any other conclusion, even when other rumours talk of stretched finances.

As I understand it, the fancy upgrades being discussed in recent threads, will come from a capital budget (i.e. one-off) to upgrade older airframes, where there would not be the money to replace with new. Actually, this is the most sensible decision IMHO, (certainly from a cost point of view) since the airframes in question will all be CPDS machines, so most likely built after Serial No: 200 and therefore be mature, but not past it. It's just the Police kit that's been overtaken by technology in the 10 or so years that these aircraft have been operational, and therefore ripe for a mid-life upgrade, so long as the airframes can carry enough fuel to get them to jobs half an hour away . . . Ah, that's where we get back to Art's comments on 4th June . . .
The real test will be operational, as mentioned before, i.e. how the upgrade project is managed, while still trying to keep the fleet in the air with the spare aircraft that so much of the NPAS service & mantra is based on. Watch this space.

Still can't make emoticons work - my typing screen is yellow, rather than white. Any clues?