Cold War, Hot Jets BBC2 2100 Friday

[JFZ90]

Has this been posted?

Looks like a new 2 part documentary that might be worth a watch.

BBC Two - Cold War, Hot Jets, Episode 1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03h8r3y)

[Willard Whyte]

:ok: Good heads up. Also in HD, btw.

[The Helpful Stacker]

{Hark, the sound of the Pprune WIWO brigade soiling their continence products in anticipation}

;)

[Willard Whyte]

I'm just hoping they feature a good number of experimental aircraft, rather than just the military hardware.

[Rocket2]

"Hark, the sound of the PPRuNe WIWO brigade soiling their continence products in anticipation" and are probably setting off for their local branch of Comut or Doxins to purchase the latest 90" super wide TV screens with a 3 Giga Watt surround sound system to REALLY tee off the neighbours & relive life "when we had a real Air Force / Fleet Air Arm" :{

[MPN11]

I shall ask Nurse to provide extra incontinence pads and some tranquillisers. ;)

Already programmed into the Sky box, and a good call from the OP. :ok:

[BillHicksRules]

WIWO?

Filler

[Courtney Mil]

WIWO = "When I Was On..." as in ever ex-Lightning pilot's story started with "When I was on Lightnings" so became known as WIWOLs.

[NutLoose]

Yup, I posted a link to it but no one noticed, this was the thread where one of the researchers for the programme came on asking on here for our help, so if it's dire i blame you :ooh:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/502083-upcoming-bbc-doc-jets-cold-war-help-needed.html

[MPN11]

"WIWA..." For ground-pounders of course. Much the same, but without the hand-gestures of a rolling yo-yo (or something like that). :)

[DC10RealMan]

In the civil world it is WIWOT = When I was on Tridents!

[NutLoose]

I hope they have a TV in the crewroom for the end of the C130K party, after all they wont want to miss it :E

[Danny42C]

I shall put it in my diary (well, you can't expect an old fella like me to remember that far ahead) - and will have my nitrate spray ready to hand.

Thanks, JFZ90 !

[MPN11]

Watch it in slow motion, Danny :cool:

[The B Word]

WIWOP - Jehovah!!!

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

Who's been telling you about my Broadband ?

Danny.

[rolling20]

On a more serious note chaps, looking at the review of this ,it seems it is trying to explain where our Aero industry went wrong. A bouyant aero industry was seen as key to our future prosperity.
It also mentions that the MiG 15s in the Korean War, used a version of the Rolls Royce Nene engine.
I for one have never understood why the Atlee Government weren't all put in the Tower for gifting the Russians 25 Rolls Royce Nene engines.
They were supposed to be used for peaceful purposes only!!

[cornish-stormrider]

Any mention of letting the Russians around the rolls factory while wearing shoes with VERY soft soles,to pick up samples of the alloys?

[Wensleydale]

I for one have never understood why the Atlee* Government weren't all put in the Tower


* or substitute for the leader of any Labour Government of the last 60 years.



Here we go!!!....

[rolling20]

You are not wrong there re Labour!

I seem to remember that was a senior member of the Soviet delegation that was taken around the factory and unbelievably he changed his shoes on site!

[clicker]

Good start, looking forward to next weeks part. That's a period of aviation more in my days of a youth.

[Pontius Navigator]

* or substitute for the leader of any Labour Government of the last 60 years.
Here we go!!!....

If you look at the labour Governments you Defence than the Tories. They were the Government that started the nuclear weapons programme. Without checking fine details they probably also started the bomber programmes.

Dennis Healey was 'the Serviceman's friend' and actually served at the Defence Minister for a full 5-years which gave continuity. While they cancelled the TSR2 they also gave us the F4, Buccaneer (RAF) and C130. Even the more recent Governments where they fitted revolving doors in MB gave us the C130J and C17. Who ordered WEBF's favourite warship?

Now who disbanded the Harrier sqns? Who disbanded the maritime force? Who cancelled the MRA4?

Politically both major parties are essentially parties of the centre and while those on the left may be accused by those on the right of being spendthrifts, I suspect spendthrifts have been more friendly to the armed service than those on the right.

Thatcher, OTOH, was an exception as she honoured an election pledge and gave the Services a massive payrise after years of politically enforced penury.

[Pontius Navigator]

Good start, looking forward to next weeks part. That's a period of aviation more in my days of a youth.
Agree, although I thought the footage of the John Derry crash was unfortunately inevitable for the programme, but I thought the way the Comet story was covered was much better.

I also thought the Jet Provost sequence was both anachronistic and vanity. It seemed overly long and while it was part of the 'RAF all jet air force' that was of the '60s and not the '50s. The Piston Provost was still the principal trainer into the '60s.

The U2-RB45 coverage was much less well known and therefore much more interesting. I wonder where they found the chaps to interview :ok:

[NutLoose]

I enjoyed that, it seemed to be pretty factual without the usual wrong aircraft bloopers, all over an enjoyable show, the JP Air to Air were fantastic shots.

[Wander00]

Generally good, and agree the JP more 60s than 50s I quite enjoyed that bit and I remember my grin flying it. Travelling next week so hope I can get it on iPlayer (I will be in UK)

[NutLoose]

Why don't you watch it on Iplayer at home?

[aviate1138]

Always there has to be bias....... How many RAF pilots flew U-2s and later iterations and how many USAF?
The implication in the Documentary was that the RAF did the lions share which has to be untrue surely?
Also no B-47s or B-36 footage or did I nod off? Agree about the Jet Provost [including smily presenter] footage being far too long. RB-45 footage from Sculthorpe was excellent.

DH110 footage brought back some buried memories of the screams as the wreckage hit the crowded slopes behind my viewpoint.

[NutLoose]

Comments elsewhere that the Flight Test Observer Anthony Richards was not mentioned seems spot on, two people were onboard on that tragic day.

Aviate, that must have been horrific, I am amazed as how composed and without panic the crowd appeared to be, I suppose so close to the end of the war they knew what to expect and how to deal with it.

[clicker]

Only one aircraft I didn't recognise.

What was the V-tailed aircraft looking rather like a Scimitar, in fact I think there was a Scimitar flying in the background in the same shot.

Agree with the comment about the RAF U2 pilots. If you didn't know anything you would get the impression that the RAF crews did all the USSR flights. Gary Powers was the only mention of non RAF crews..

[Archimedes]

Missed that one, clicker - but possibly the Supermarine 508?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Supermarine_508_VX129_in_flight_c1951.jpg

[cornish-stormrider]

you utter utter bast***s.
i made the mistake of logging on at work this evening having made sure I left the magic of Mr Bransons Box recording it for me and I foolishly clicked onto this thread where you are all putting up spoilers - you're all a bunch of gits.

mostly old gits - some of you might be heading for the seniority that only a Beagle can attain......

the show sounds mighty fine, i shall try and persuade the boss lady to vacate the house with the wee bairn so i can watch in peace, reheat, its the sound of overtime.....

[clicker]

Thanks Archimedes, that's the aircraft.

[PFMG]

Does anyone know what the piano music at 43.20 was? PFMG minor would like to play it but I can't find out what it is.

[longer ron]

PN
Now who disbanded the Harrier sqns? Who disbanded the maritime force? Who cancelled the MRA4?

That might be a slightly simplistic view ?
It was labour (broon and mandy esp) that mismanaged the country so badly that there was no money left in t'coffers !!
I am not saying that I agreed with the cuts - something else could have been cut but none of our governments seem capable of common sense decisions.
Whilst I do not think much of any politicians - broon and mandy were the absolute worst for many years !

[newt]

Just hope the next one is not all about the V Force!

Need to see some Lightning footage!!

[Pontius Navigator]

LR, I agree there, the clue in my post was I suspect spendthrifts have been more friendly to the armed service .

Labour spend and Tories had to cut - that applied after Wilson/Calaghan and Brown, but the Tories with MacMillian and Eden left Wilson in the position of having to impose cuts.

My point, regardless of whether we can afford it, is that Labour seem to spend more on equipment but the Tories are seen to be more favourable.

[rolling20]

NO need to wait until next week,go take a look on YouTube,nice clips on there.

[BEagle]

Unfortunately I missed the first 27 minutes... However, that which I did see looked very good and was a nice change from the usual stock clips and lengthy pieces to camera.

I do wish the BBC would find some more relevant jet engine sound effects though - the usual 'taxying Pegasus' and 'Look at Life Meteor formation' made their predictable appearances.

Must see if I can get iPlayer to work today.....

[big v]

The programme was rather disjointed, jumping around a number of topics with minimal linkage. I agree that the JP piece was rather long and had little to do with the flow of the programme - if they'd wanted to do a fighter flight then I think that something like a 2-stick Hunter would have been a better bet.

It's a pity the Canberra featured only as a couple of fill-in film clips, missing it's significance in UK jet aircraft development entirely. Perhaps they'll fit it in next week.

Critcism yes but minor. It was just great to see all that film - I could almost smell the paraffin.

[longer ron]

Hi PN
Sorry I was not criticising your post,probably came across that way...I was criticising all parties politicians !

Modified slightly for a quote :)
is that Labour seem to spend more on equipment/everything

They certainly stitched the poor old taxpayer up on the new carrier contract LOL...By the time Wastospace have finished doubling/trebling the price - it will be as expensive/more expensive than having a real carrier with real aircraft that are flexible - and of course if you have a flat deck and cats/traps you can actually have support aircraft as well :ugh:.
We always seem to end up with a really expensive solution that is forking useless.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Having described the shock and horror over how good the MIG15 was, some shots of neatly parked and clearly roundelled Canadair Sabres passed without comment.

Numerous shots of the Comet were shown but it would have been nice to see at least one shot of the world's first jet airliner to fly.

[Wander00]

GBZ - You mean the Nene Viking?

[Pontius Navigator]

Always there has to be bias....... How many RAF pilots flew U-2s and later iterations and how many USAF?
The implication in the Documentary was that the RAF did the lions share which has to be untrue surely?
Also no B-47s or B-36 footage or did I nod off? Agree about the Jet Provost [including smily presenter] footage being far too long. RB-45 footage from Sculthorpe was excellent.

DH110 footage brought back some buried memories of the screams as the wreckage hit the crowded slopes behind my viewpoint.

I think the title expectation was that of all Cold War jets but, as a British programme I guess emphasis on the British angle, especially the lead we had, made it inevitable that there would be a British bias.

There was B52 footage but more as a scene setter.

[Tankertrashnav]

Just hope the next one is not all about the V Force!

Need to see some Lightning footage!


Half of the programme devoted to Valiants and Victors refuelling Lightnings ought to keep us both happy ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

On the DH110 crash, I wonder if that stopped any export potential or were the Javelin and Sea Vixen too advanced for export where the night fighter threat was not seen as great?

[CoffmanStarter]

I thought, on the whole, not a bad start ... I do agree the JP piece was a little out of place. Would have liked to have seen more on the Canberra.

Looking forward to next week ... Plenty of AD Lightning action please, in addition to the expected V Force ops :ok:

[Wander00]

All these ideas maybe there should be a PPrune Productions company, to make a sequel, with all the bits we old guys would like to see though watering eyes..............I'll get my coat

(yes and more Canberras, and where was aunty Betty's best toy, the Gnat.)

[Treble one]

I received an email from the LPG at Bruntingthorpe informing me that the team had spent a day with them up there.

In the trail at the end of part 1 was a rearward facing view from a camera on the fuselage of XS904 with is blasting down the runway at Brunty with afterburners engaged...

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Wander00, that would be the one.

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1269722M.jpg

[newt]

Thanks T one. I know they were with the boys at the LPG so look forward to some footage of the Lightning.:ok:

We are trying to save 713 which is at Leuchars and move it to Wattisham to join others in the museum. She is the last complete Mk 3 and spent a lot of time on 111 Squadron. Any donations would be great and details can be found on the Tremblers website and the LPG website!:ok:

[NutLoose]

The bit showing next weeks programme had shots of the Brunty lightning doing reheat runs down the runway with cameras attached to it filming it from the outside, looked awesome.

[Treble one]

Good luck with that newt

One can never have too much Lightning footage, and with a bit of interspersed V Force action (no doubt featuring Cuba) it is something I am looking forward to viewing next week.

[Lima Juliet]

To be technically correct the Nene Lancastrian was the first jet aircraft to carry passengers in 1946...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Avro_Sapphire_Lancastrian_VM733_Coventry_06.54.jpg/320px-Avro_Sapphire_Lancastrian_VM733_Coventry_06.54.jpg

[Wander00]

GBJ - That will be the one. Always thought it a bit incongruous - jet engines and that tubby fuselage.

LJ - But ISTR it still had piston engines in the inboard nacelles, so was not a "pure" jet.

(Mods - is it worth amalgamating this and the similar thread on AH & N)

[Lima Juliet]

Wander00

The Merlins were shut down and feathered when running on the jets...

First to fly was Lancastrian VH742, delivered to the Rolls-Royce flight development airfield at Hucknall in October 1945. Its outer Merlin engines were removed and the nacelles were also taken away, while the fuel system was completely rebuilt to carry both gasoline for the inner engines and kerosine for the new jets. In the outer positions were added completely new nacelles housing Nene turbojets, then the most powerful jet engines in the world. It flew again on August 14, 1946 with two Merlins and two Nenes.

On September 19, 1946 this aircraft acted as the world's first jet airliner by making three passenger flights carrying representatives of the Press as well as Ministry officials and other passengers (who were all most impressed and suggested that an airline that could offer jet travel would be the talk of the world). Rolls-Royce also flew a second Nene-Lancastrian, VH737, and two Avon-Lancastrians, VM732 and VL970. The latter was used for almost six years, its later flying being concentrated on the Avon 502 civil turbojet for the Comet 2 airliner.

[VIProds]

aviate1138

U-2 Pilots from 1955 to 2000

Test Pilots = 15
CIA Pilots = 30
RAF Pilots = 15
CAF Pilots = 29
USAF Pilots= 645

Total = 734

(CAF = nationalist Chinese Air Force - Taiwan)

Pontius Navigator

Rex Saunders did the original "Spies in the Sky" documentary with the late great John Crampton, so Auntie would still have his details.

Eric Brown has done a few documentaries for the Beeb, so again they would have retained his details.

[Wander00]

OK LB, I give in....W

[Yamagata ken]

Plonking review in the loss-making Grauniad, including (classic) mis-identification of a Vampire/Venom as a Victor.
Cold War, Hot Jets ? TV review | Television & radio | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2013/nov/09/cold-war-hot-jets-tv-review-sam-wollaston)

[CoffmanStarter]

YK ... :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Rosevidney1]

As I feared the footage accompanying the program was inappropriate. It would have made far more sense to have shown the Meteor in the role of a fighter than standing by a T7 and droning on. Some of the purported MiG-15 footage showed the Lavochkin La-17. No mention of the Jet Provost being a development of the Leonides Provost. Why oh why can't the TV companies (especially the BBC) bother to employ an expert to find the right footage? Somebody who served in the ROC perhaps? All in all the program was a disappointment - but are we surprised?

[NutLoose]

It was still head and shoulders above the norm.




..

[diesel addict]

Fed up with the totally unneccessary too-far-in-the-foreground music.

When are we going to get some presenters who do not act ( and sometimes sound like ) hysterical puppies.

Feeling unusually generous - 4 / 10

Perhaps try the next instalment with the sound muted out.

[langleybaston]

I loved it, having been a schoolboy on the south coast in the 1950s.
Spotter's paradise, the location and the time.
And the programme too.

WIWAMM

When I Was A Met Man of course.

[clicker]

Forerunner of "When I was a rich man"?

[Pontius Navigator]

Nutloose, agree.

Diesel Addict, it had sound? :) Apart from the presenter prattling on, bring back the likes of Raymond Baxter, any music passed right by me.

[Cornish Jack]

How odd!! - did nobody else catch the instances given of the Septics doing their best to cause problems for an ally's aero-industry which had helpfully provided them with early gas turbine experimental and manufactured products?? :mad: Perhaps I was watching something else - it does happen occasionally nowadays:sad:

[langleybaston]

comfortable, comfortable only.

HOVE! from whence I spotted doodlebugs, mosquitos, spitfires, typhoons, tempests, the D-day halifax and Stirling tugs with gliders [and Albemarle?] the Wyvern, Princess, Brabazon, Hunter, Swift and a hundred others. And a bike ride to Miles Aviation at Shoreham Airport.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
But to be young was very heaven!--Oh! times .........

[barnstormer1968]

Instances?

I suppose its a bit like breathing. We get so used to it that we don't even notice after a while.

Comet, don't export it, but we will export the 707 (were that type of engine used on a long range bomber?)

Concorde, too loud for us. But we will build something bigger and faster (but failed)

There is another contender, but I'm not brave enough the mention THAT aircraft.

[nimbev]

Viprods

U-2 Pilots from 1955 to 2000
Test Pilots = 15
CIA Pilots = 30
RAF Pilots = 15
CAF Pilots = 29
USAF Pilots= 645
Total = 734 NASA Ames had U2s in the 70/80s flown by their own pilots. Some of them were retired USAF, dont know about all of them. They got a lot of publicity and TV face time when Mt St Helens blew in 1980 and they were flying data gathering sorties. I lived on extended finals and the U2s would come whispering low over the house. Happy Days!

[clicker]

langleybaston,

Shoreham Airport, nice place but I would loved to have seen the place when it was at it's peak. Only been down here for the last 10 years or so.

My mother hated doodlebugs but when living in South London at the age of 12 I can understand that. She did tell me that one dropped a couple of hundred yards behind the house on the other side of the road but her only memory of it was seeing the owners grandfather clock upright on the footpath near the gate after being blown though the front door still in a reasonable state.

Would liked to have seen the aircraft going off to the invasion and I understand the Operation Market Garden fleet passed near there as well and was a sight to behold.

Not too far away around Rottingdean and Falmer was a tank training area. Quite often when working for the Police I took calls of UXB's which were often inert training rounds but so discoloured and rusty they had to be treated as real.

[NutLoose]

They (Classic Airforce) shot the JP footage themselves from a PA 28 and presented it to the BBC, suprised no ones mentioned the pins still in on the face blinds, I suppose the seats must be inert on it.

Blog Comments (http://www.classicairforce.com/blog-comment?z=nqy&AID=70)

[charliegolf]

As I feared the footage accompanying the program was inappropriate

I thought I spotted John Atkinson of 33 and 230 vintage in the test pilot segment, who certainly flew jets in his yoof. But he wasn't a test pilot as I recall.

CG

[clicker]

nimbev,

Mt St Helens caused some grief for the company I worked for at the time (Transamerica Airlines) although glad to say HQ dealt with that area, we at Gatwick dealt with Europe and the Middle East.

One of our L-382's took off from Mcloud AFB and within 15-20 mins had lost two engines and suffered "sand blasting" effects on the leading edges and windscreen. They landed back at Mcloud within 10 mins and of the other two engines one needed to be replaced as well.

[Pontius Navigator]

They (Classic Airforce) shot the JP footage themselves from a PA 28 and presented it to the BBC, suprised no ones mentioned the pins still in on the face blinds, I suppose the seats must be inert on it.

Blog Comments (http://www.classicairforce.com/blog-comment?z=nqy&AID=70)

I looked.

Visor covers too!

[thunderbird7]

Well I thoroughly enjoyed it. James Holland always comes across as a historian who is an aviation enthusiast rather than just another journo who has no affinity with the subject. I look forward to part 2.

(I particularly enjoyed the posh old biddy who 'rushed inside' to tell everyone she had seen an aeroplane without a propellor!)

[MAINJAFAD]

I suppose the seats must be inert on it

If you look closely at the footage of the JP front end, the bang seat triangle cleary has Inert written on it.

A very good programme in my view as it had at least one item in it that I wasn't aware of in the US trying to stop the export of the Comet (and I could have written most of the script for it off the top of my head). However having researched the Files at kew about the export of Bloodhound to the Swedes and Swiss, I was aware that the US tried to stop the export of the Mk 2 to the Swiss on technical transfer grounds. The guys at the FCO were quite clear in the documents that it was purely sour grapes on the part the Septics seeing that they had already cleared the Swedish deal.

[Pontius Navigator]

researched the Files at kew about the export of Bloodhound to the Swedes and Swiss, I was aware that the US tried to stop the export of the Mk 2 to the Swiss on technical transfer grounds. The guys at the FCO were quite clear in the documents that it was purely sour grapes on the part the Septics seeing that they had already cleared the Swedish deal.

I wonder.

Prior to the V-force switching to low level I saw maps with eastbound routing over France, Switzerland and Austria. Post the switch to low level the routing was over Sweden.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Rosevidney, you ask "why?".

Probably because journalists tend to come in just one flavour; sloppy and sour - the difference between the BBC and the appalling grauniad is thus pretty small.

[spekesoftly]

If you look closely at the footage of the JP front end, the bang seat triangle cleary has Inert written on it.

I could clearly see the Inert sign on the Vampire that was shown some minutes later, but not on the JP which appeared to have no red triangle.

[VIProds]

Good point nimbev, I was given a list of names & ranks of military pilots plus the Lockheed test pilots that flew the U-2, from a SR-71 pilot. So presumably the NASA pilots had not been included on that list.

[XV490]

It was still head and shoulders above the norm.

Agreed -- far better than I'd expected, with some good interviewees - doesn't 'young' Lord Stockton look like his dad (bar the whiskers); and, of course, the phlegmatic Winkle, a truly fearless aviator. I hope the next episode is as good. I learned a good deal from this first one.

[NutLoose]

Quote:
If you look closely at the footage of the JP front end, the bang seat triangle cleary has Inert written on it.
I could clearly see the Inert sign on the Vampire that was shown some minutes later, but not on the JP which appeared to have no red triangle.

You think the would still remove them even if the seat is inert, a bit like calling 3 Greens on fixed wing aircraft, leaving pins in because seats are inert might one day catch someone out in a live seat aircraft and I cannot see any reason not to remove them, in an emergency would you know the seats were inert and could indeed have a placard by the pins.

[MightyGem]

Just watching tonight's programme. Apart from the commentator not knowing what a barrel roll is, fascinating stuff.

Have I seen any PPRuNers tonight?

[clicker]

Another excellent program, quite a few shots I've not seen before.

Didn't like the bit where he spoke over Churchill's speech as that made it slightly more difficult to hear.

Would also liked to have seen a more more on the Lightning

Did chuckle slightly when the Cuba alert clip was shown with a missile with "Drill" painted on it and when they spoke of a Lincoln being shot down in the Berlin corridor and showed a B17.

[Al R]

I really enjoyed that. Although I was relieved at the end to discover I missed nowt special at Wembley in the meantime.

[Alber Ratman]

Unfortunately the same journo view on the TSR2.. "It was a traversty being axed", not that it was a dogs dinner of a specification that was never likely to be fulfiled even by the best efforts of BAC.. Shame the Empire of the Clouds wasn't transfered into a documentary..

[Tankertrashnav]

Didn't like the bit where he spoke over Churchill's speech as that made it slightly more difficult to hear.




I thought that was very silly - the only jarring note in an otherwise good programme.

Sergei Kruschev showed himself to be a man of taste and discernment when he said that of the three V Bombers he had seen at an airshow, he was particularly impressed by the Victor ;) Seriously the Victor B1 in anti-flash white really did look like something out of the future!

[BEagle]

A shame that the U-2 segment didn't include Martin Bee, even though he appeared in the Lightning segment....

Sergei Khruschev seems a fascinating chap - he must have a lot of tales to tell!

I was rather amused that the 'post-release' segment about getting back to the UK was obviously filmed in a Jet Provost!

But overall, a refreshingly good programme. But it's a pity that there isn't enough Victor footage available to avoid the use of Victor tanker clips in bomber documentaries...

[tubby linton]

If an aircraft( Victor /Vulcan) was on QRA during ground icing conditions how was it de-iced in time to launch within the QRA window.?

[Lima Juliet]

What happened to 558? All we saw was the forlorn and forgotten Woodford Vulcan. They should have also covered the loss of the Vulcan over Syerston and the leading edge mod.

I wpuld have liked to see the TSR2 piece go onto Harrier, Jaguar and Tornado - the Cold War didn't finish in the 70s!

I enjoyed the program, but it is, to me, unfinished. I also noticed the horrific B17 error and also the drill round. Nice to see RPE and Tom Eeles, though :ok:

LJ

[newt]

So why not finish the story? What about the tactical nuclear stuff?

Far too much about the V-Force for me!

[WhiteOvies]

I agree, surely a 3rd episode covering the late 70s and 80s is a must! They mentioned that the Lightning was retired a year before the Wall came down so why not go onto the development and use of Tornado/Harrier/Jag /Buccaneer/Phantom etc...?

[airpolice]

Leon, hundreds of years ago (it seems) I worked with Mrs. RPE, she was far too nice for him, even though he was a nice bloke.

[nimbev]

Yes some good footage but far too much waffle. It didnt really need as much 1960's scene setting. That time could have been given over to other aircraft. Oh, and 'only the best crews were chosen to fly in the V bombers' .... not how I remember it!!:sad:

[anotherthing]

Just watched the first episode thanks to iPlayer and about to watch second.

I personally didn't think the Provost was too heavily featured, in fact I thought some of the cinematography was stunning.

Also just Wiki'd Eric Winkle Brown. Being ex FAA I'd heard of him but until tonight never knew his career. Notwithstanding the vagaries of wiki... a truly remarkable man and career

[Lima Juliet]

I've found what Part 3 should be on You Tube - Jags, Buccs, TSR2, Vulcans, Victors and Tornado all included. All that BBC would need to do is re-dub it!

Famous Warplanes - Panavia Tornado - YouTube

LJ :ok:

[Tashengurt]

Just watched the first episode thanks to iPlayer and about to watch second.

I personally didn't think the Provost was too heavily featured, in fact I thought some of the cinematography was stunning.

Also just Wiki'd Eric Winkle Brown. Being ex FAA I'd heard of him but until tonight never knew his career. Notwithstanding the vagaries of wiki... a truly remarkable man and career

You have to read his book 'Wings on my sleeve.'
It's excellent.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Pontius Navigator]

If an aircraft( Victor /Vulcan) was on QRA during ground icing conditions how was it de-iced in time to launch within the QRA window.?

They were deiced regularly. I remember one night the QRA crews themselves used a Landrover with dozer blade keeping the dispersal clear while the ground crew kept the route from dispersal to runway open.

One crewman managed to drive the dozer in to a snow drift. His relief complained that he had had to spend an hour digging it out again.

I am not aware of at any time during my time of a station going black for QRA.

[Pontius Navigator]

a missile with "Drill" painted on it and when they spoke of a Lincoln being shot down in the Berlin corridor and showed a B17.

IIRC that was a film clip of a QB17 shot down by a Nike test vehicle. I can't remember if it was a clip on general release or one we were shown during training.

[Pontius Navigator]

Oh, and 'only the best crews were chosen to fly in the V bombers' .... not how I remember it!!:sad:

That depends on the period. By the time you joined the V-force it was well on the way to becoming a routine assignment with first tour captains, copilots made up to captains and general talk of dilution.

Before that, 50s and early 60s it was certainly true. Copilots with 1000 hours, nav radars with a one-year NBS course, plotters with a previous Canberra tour or more. Some crews transferred en mass from Valiant to Vulcan.

[Pontius Navigator]

at the 'post-release' segment about getting back to the UK was obviously filmed in a Jet Provost!

I flew with Pete West for a period. Getting back to the UK was a euphemism for post-flight recovery.

Some aircraft had routes that were sufficiently short so they could recover direct but most had recovery bases in Norway, Denmark and Turkey.

Certainly in the 50s and early 60s crews carried the addresses and telephone numbers for the embassies on each country and were instructed to phone home. I think the expectation early on was that the nuclear strike would not have been an absolute as overkill had yet to be established.

They were quite right that nuclear gave more bang for the buck, who could argue at £1/ton?

[Wensleydale]

IIRC that was a film clip of a QB17 shot down by a Nike test vehicle


Is that a missile that could be fitted to trainers?

The clip is also used during the "World At War" series so it has been in the public domain for quite a while.

[XV490]

I got it wrong - Stockton is Mac's grandson. Now that does make me feel old.

[goudie]

plotters with a previous Canberra tour or more.

I recall several navs, on my Canberra Sqdn, not relishing their posting to 'V's, mainly due to the lack of ejection seats.

[nimbev]

Pontius
the V-force was well on the way to becoming a routine assignment with first tour captains, copilots made up to captains and general talk of dilutionNo offence Pontius, but as a non V force guy I couldnt resist the wind-up!

[Basil]

Noticed my old S Cerney V-Force Nav Flight Commander and also a well known ex Lightning Air Commodore.

Someone mentioned 'Head East', or something similar, as a final release. Without going into detail, ISTR that the bombers could be recalled at any time.

[t7a]

It was eight east - that was the go/no go line.

[Tankertrashnav]

I heard that as "8 East", which I took to mean longitude 8 degrees East as the point after which the attack was irrevocable.

But I am sure P-N or others can confirm.

Are you referring to Aubrey Clayphan, Basil? He became a flight commander on Victor tankers and famously ejected and commandeered the air conditioned room of a gobby shiny fleet loadmaster who unwisely made a remark about "tankertrash" as a tanker crew were making their way to their non air-conditioned rooms at Akrotiri!

Edited to say thanks t7a - you got the confirmation in before I posted it!

[NutLoose]

What happened to 558? All we saw was the forlorn and forgotten Woodford Vulcan. They should have also covered the loss of the Vulcan over Syerston and the leading edge mod.

I can understand the usage of the Woodford one, (which incidentally is supposed to be part of a new Woodford museum) as it is the only one in anti flash white and relates to the period being discussed, as well as the airborne shots.

Then of course there is the last ever flight of the Victor in 2009..

Accidental take-off of Victor Bob Prothero explains what happened. - YouTube

[Basil]

t7a and Tankertrashnav,
Ah, "eight east" - thank you. Won't mention to SWMBO or I'll get even more flack about my auditory perception :)

famously ejected and commandeered the air conditioned room of a gobby shiny fleet loadmaster
That's Aubrey! :):ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

t7a/TTN,

Quite right. I can't recall where it was for Cyprus however :)

During flight to dispersal after declaration of alert condition 1 crews not only remained radio silent but were instructed to have all radios switched off 'to avoid getting confusing messages'. On the dispersal flight the weapon could not be dropped live and there was insufficient fuel for a war mission.

One confusion could be hearing the QRA and main base aircraft being scrambled. The other, slightly less confusing, could the dawning of the sun in the west etc.

However once cocked and then launched on an authenticated scramble the crews would head east as stated. In the event of not receiving an authenticated go message the instructions were to return to take-off airfield.

Now the Release may have been issued and not received because of jamming or the transmitters being destroyed or indeed the command centres destroyed before the release was authorised.

There were, as far as I know, no instructions on what to do if on returning west you saw only a nuclear holocaust. Would you do as in Doctor Strangelove and retaliate or would you obey orders to the end, reach the UK, and then . . .

[CoffmanStarter]

Just watched on iPlayer ... very good I thought :ok:

Well done Tom Moriarty ... :D

Tom's original request for PPRuNe help (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/502083-upcoming-bbc-doc-jets-cold-war-help-needed.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

There would certainly have been scope for another 2 parts. Aside from the passing references to the USAF other noticeable bits that were either not mentioned or merely skipped over were the Hunters and Javelins the backbone of the UK Air Defence before the Lightning, the Sea Vixen, Buccaneer and Scimitar for maritime, the VC10! Then later Air Defence with the F4 and attack with Jaguar, Harrier, Buccaneer.

I suppose, looking in the round, the first part was the British leadership in jet engines and then it was concentrated on design with the attack and defence aspects of the Cold War with our nuclear deterrent and the associated air defence on the one hand and the Russian on the other.

[tubby linton]

Thank you for your reply on the winter operations aspect of the V-force Pontius

[JFZ90]

I thought it was rather good.

Agree partly about TSR2, though there is still the fact that it did spell a particularly sharp downturn in UK aerospace - perhaps they was room for de-scoping the rather extreme requirements and carrying on, as opposed to complete cancellation.

Given the depth of knowledge of many prruners it was actually quite accurate. I think you can forgive the Lincoln / B17 footage - they were showing what was available. The only bit that counted as unfortunate footage for me was the introductory narrative on ICBMs, then cutting to a picture of a Nike/Hercules SAM, though it did quickly show a Thor soon after.

Interesting to see a Blue Steel drop, never seen that. I looked to see if there is any Blue Steel launch/rocket start footage on the net, but could find none. I wonder if there is actually no footage out there?

Always good to see some shiney Lightnings of course.

[Rosevidney1]

As in part 1 it was truly dreadful. That piece where both he and Churchill were talking out of synch was offensive. No mention of tactical nuclear or even the Short Sperrin but I'm not surprised. The series is simply inept. Again more inappropriate footage. I suppose the BBC consider him to be one of their rising stars.....

[Pontius Navigator]

Rose, I think you are too harsh.

I think I can detect the dead hand of bureaucracy here. 'Sorry old boy, just not enough interest for more than a couple of parts, keep it down to under two hours, OK?'

The scope was huge and while we experts can criticise the addition of this or the exclusion of that, I think on balance it was a brave effort pulling in much rare footage.

Yes, we would have done it differently, but would we have done it better?

[Rosevidney1]

PN, with respect The Crankies or the Chuckle Brothers could have made a better fist of it! I'm sure many of us would have taken more trouble.

[JFZ90]

Rose, I fear you are far too harsh.

It seems fairly sure your version would have been too dull & detailed for the masses, which at the end of the day is who this is aimed at.

I'd love to see more niche programmes however, such as "history of air drop since WW2" or similar. A programme covering the technologies, operations, mishaps, people etc, would work well.

[TEEEJ]

JFZ90 wrote

I looked to see if there is any Blue Steel launch/rocket start footage on the net, but could find none. I wonder if there is actually no footage out there?

FwMnEoC0gVg&feature=related

[JFZ90]

Thanks TEEEJ,

Interesting that the first one accelerates quite smartly, whereas the second one at the end seems to take ages to overtake the Vulcan - it looks like slomo, and the angle may not help.

I wonder how many firings they did, and how many scares they had with the rocket fuel.

[Pontius Navigator]

JFZ, I wasn't BS but I know of a couple of instances. At Scampton they had and HTP off-load pit. A fireman accidently fell in to it and as quickly came out again as it blew him out - he was shaken but not stirred. I believe they also had drench showers available.

On another occasion, a Vulcan with a hot missile landed at Waddo and used the emergency HTP offload area - no pit, just the grass on the side of the taxiway. I saw the correspondence between OC Ops with ours asking for a supply of grass seed.

[JFZ90]

Thanks PN, there is a bit about it on the web.

Seems that despite the risks it was actually one of the safer rocket fuels (at least of the non-solid variety).

Interesting also to read that the Blue Steel inertial guidance was so much better (newer) than the vulcan/victor, the host ac would use the missile guidance for nav during a mission.

[Pontius Navigator]

JFZ, true, as long as the stable table remained stable. The mark 1 bombers had the standard G4B system. The Mk 2, which included the BS variants, had the Smiths Military Flight System. This had better flux valves, gyros and interface but when asked how it would fare during an evasive bomb run Smiths said the gyros would precess by no more than 180 degrees.

After the cancellation of TSR2 the Vulcan benefitted from some upgrades to its nav kit. This included a twin-gyro installation - Master Reference Gyros - as part of the Heading Reference System. It was the same MRG that the Lightning used for pitch reference and in the BS Inertial. Its free-gyro drift rate of 0.25 deg/hour coupled with the Decca 72M Doppler then gave performance comparable with contemporary IN platforms. The MFS was relegated to a backup system.

[t43562]

That was a fascinating programme. The spirit and attitude does live on, I think. The Skylon project seems like an example of it to me and it appeals to me to bemoan the losses of the past only for a little while and spend more time hoping for the future.

[BEagle]

Of course it's difficult for the BBC to strike the right balance in such a programme, when most of today's audiences are besotted with rubbish such as Big Brother, get me out of the jungle or that utter cr@p Strictly come dancing, involving fat celebs squeezed into sequined frocks being pawed by snake-hipped dagos in order to impress a panel of fawning camp luvvies.....:ugh:

I thought it* was pretty good - except for all that wretched music!


*I mean Cold War, Hot Jets, of course!

[Pontius Navigator]

involving fat celebs squeezed into sequined frocks !

And that's the blokes.

Celebs? I have to keep asking the other half who is who and it is usually from some obscure job somewhere.

[nimbev]

During flight to dispersal after declaration of alert condition 1I am told that on occassion the first that a V base would know of a dispersal exercise was when a Beverley would appear on short finals ready to pick up whatever was needed to disperse. I remember the consternation that was caused when we lobbed into Scampton/Waddington one day on a practice diversion!

[Danny42C]

BEagle,

Spot on !

Danny.

[4Greens]

What happened to the carrier borne tactical nuclear weapon capability?

[Pontius Navigator]

nimbev, very true. The AT had to be pre-booked with Transport Command for the no-notice Bomber Command exercise :)

It says something of the size of the RAF just how much the different Commands were totally separate entities. AFAIK we never knew when the Micky Finn was to be called. There were lots of 'blocked' dates such as the GCE dates, bank holiday dates, major exercises like Kingpin and Coop.

I recall one MF when Command got it wrong and scheduled the exercise during the second week of A-level exams. There were a few disgruntled people but no exceptions were made either by the station or the examination boards.

[diginagain]

What happened to the carrier borne tactical nuclear weapon capability? The one-way Wasp ride?

[Pontius Navigator]

4Greens, an example of the cutting room. It looks as if he was focussing very tightly on the UK Mainland as apart from the few brief references to the USAF there was no mention of 2TAF/RAFG either.

[Courtney Mil]

Judge and find fault all you like, I thoroughly enjoyed both parts. Thanks, it was great. :ok:

[vascodegama]

So were the crews taking A levels then?

[Pontius Navigator]

Vasco indeed, IIRC one was a plotter.

Remember you didn't need A-levels to get a Supplementary List commission.

[Basil]

Remember you didn't need A-levels to get a Supplementary List commission.
Yup. Five O-levels for a DEC-B.
Mr Kennedy and Mr Kruschev, thank you, thank you :E

[clicker]

How was Blue Steel guided to the intended target, I presume some kind of INS system?

[Pontius Navigator]

Clicker, indeed.

I don't know about the pre-flight IN alignment but I do know it could be a sod getting it mated with the aircraft systems. If the system failed to mate or there was a fuel system malfunction the crew would be committed to target penetration and a pop up attack and level release at 11,000 feet. Given the streamline nature of the missile they would not have been as well placed as the free-fall crews that could release in the climb and therefore have less exposure.

Once airborne with a serviceable system the IN would be tweaked using a technique called Fix Monitored Azimuth. Precisely surveyed fix points en route would be used and corrections between the BS/IN predicted position and the actual position identified using the H2S would be compared and Kn and Ke (kinetic north/east) corrections applied to tweak the system.

The Blue Steel, as a free running IN system was nowhere near as accurate as later (or contemporary) double and triple inertial setups. Indeed the later free-fall Heading Reference System (which could also use FMA) and Doppler were more accurate over the long term.

A good Blue Steel attack would be around 400 yards, similar to contemporary free-fall attacks and better than free-fall climbing release with Yellow Sun.

[brakedwell]

It is reassuring to see some of my old friends have aged as badly as me :sad:

[NutLoose]

Testing of the Blue steel, now here is one to put hairs on your chest..

"fall out of the sky (40,000 ft inverted supersonic spin)" in a Victor

The aircraft experienced maximums of about minus 3 and plus 5 G’s (more than airframe design limits), and the whole incident lasted about 60 secs with the descent from 46,000 to 16,000 in about 20 secs – vertically supersonic!

:eek:


Victor Incident (http://www.jsaxon.org/bluesteel/books/victorin.htm)

Blue Steel (http://www.jsaxon.org/bluesteel/bluesteel.htm)

[clicker]

Thanks PN.

Don't know about putting hairs on your chest Nutty, perhaps thats where the current Capcomp picture came from! But also speaks volumes for the Victors strength.

[Courtney Mil]

Wow! Great story there, Nutty. Thanks for posting. :ok:

Courtney

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

"I saw your Boss today"
cracking story - thanks for posting.

[Pontius Navigator]

NL, thanks for the links, I believe Flt Lt Charlie Gilbert was an instructor at BCBS and I think I knew "Glen" Glendinning too.

[Tankertrashnav]

Nutloose- can't access either of those links. Tried several ways, including googling it and going via another site , but get the same result - any ideas?

[CoffmanStarter]

TTN ...

Google as Title below, should be last return on the response page ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/880a8385-18ae-4d31-883a-ae1aa2da6877_zpse1afcc02.jpg

Best ...

Coff.

PS. The PDF "Books" have some really interesting material and pics ...

John Saxon Blue Steel 1999 PDF Book (http://www.jsaxon.org/bluesteel/books/1999book.pdf)

John Saxon Blue Steel 2001 PDF Book (http://www.jsaxon.org/bluesteel/books/2001book.pdf)

Great find Nutty :ok:

[NutLoose]

TTN Try

John Saxon's pages (http://www.jsaxon.org)

Then the blue steel link

http://www.jsaxon. org

Remove the gap if that does not work

[mahogany bob]

I thought that the 2 programmes were great!

BBC can we have much more of the same please?

ref bombing comp B52s v Vulcans did we really ever win?
I seem to recall that in the late 60s we always came a good 2nd?

[Pontius Navigator]

Bob,

With the Bomb Comp you must remember that initially the best 3 crews from one bomber wing (3 sqns) competed against the best crews from each SAC Bombing Wing.

The SAC teams comprised both B52 and B58. Usually we did well but not startlingly well. Then we upped our game.

We got the best team from all the Strike Command Vulcan sqns and formed the Giant Voice flt. A second team Big Top was also formed and the two competed against each other.

Then there were different prizes with some being for USAF only. The big prize was, IIRC, the Fairchild trophy and another for navigation.

In 1966 (I think) Bob Tomkins from Cottesmore got a navigation error of about 0.6 miles over a 1200 mile night celestial route. The best SAC crew error was 0.2 (a B58 I believe) and second was another with 0.4.

The second night there was more turbulence and we were all sweating (back at Cottesmore) on the results. Bob only got 1.2 miles that night giving an aggregate of 1.8 miles. Then the best USAF crew got 3.2 and the second about 3.6 giving the Vulcan an outstanding and convincing win.

Later, in the early 70s, the Giant Voice aircraft had additional radar offset boxes fitted, the bombing offset voltages were bay set, and other parts of the kit given special tuning. In 1973 Mike Cook (plotter) and Robin Hardisty (radar) then won the competition and were honoured by GAPAN with the award of the Johnston Memorial Trophy. The following year Candlish and Vinales were awarded the trophy (I am not sure how they got on with the Bomb Comp.)

The best 3 SAC crews were also invited back to UK for the Bombing Competition. One notable year all 3 B52s failed to achieve a result on a simulated target near Wainfleet. Two took the Holbeach track, the 3rd hit the target but from the wrong direction. The SAC General flew from the US to present the prizes, presented them and boarded his aircraft back the the US. The SAC crew spot promotions to LTC were cancelled.

Later competitions in the US included the FB111 and the Tornado GR1s. The Tornados did exceptionally well and were not invited again.

[The Oberon]

MB

If memory serves me correctly, in 1974, the Vulcan lifted most of the SAC Giant Voice bombing competition prizes causing major upset in USAF. G.V. was between USAF B52s and RAF Vulcans, the F111 competed as a guest and did better than both competitors.

TEEJ

The Blue Steel footage brought back memories. In addition to the trials launches, there were more. I remember in late '66 early '67 there were enough timex, but serviceable parts to build 4 missiles, 2 were allocated to Wittering and 2 to Scampton, after several carry over trials all 4 were finally launched at Aberporth.

I also chuckled at the footage of loading Blue Steel onto the Victor as, in reality, it was never done like that as it was far too difficult to remove the bomb bay side fairings to allow the missile to be pushed in from the side. What actually happened was that the Victor was jacked up, 37 ins. for a training round and 35 ins. for a "wet one". A Victor Blue Steel squadron had more main and tail jacks than anyone else. If a Mick or Mickey Fynn was called, the first job on arrival on the line was to jack everything up and then wait for the loading teams to come out and carry out the loads.

HTP was indeed volatile and resulted in a couple of strange precautions. Every pan had a plunge bath adjacent to the crewchief's hut, I say plungebath but in reality they were ex MQ enamel baths with castors fitted. If you got HTP on your denims or anything oily, it would spontainiously combust and the idea was that you ran to the side of the pan and jumped in the bath. Great in the summer but not quite as good in winter when they were all frozen over. If HTP leaked onto dirty concrete that would also combust, the answer ?, all pans had a sterile area under the bomb bay and these were maintained by gangs of lineys armed with yard brooms and detergent scrubbing the concrete. Why should Britain tremble ?

PN

The additional offset boxes were devised by individual units. The ones you refer to were the Cyprus wing boxes, huge aluminium things full of trim pots that were indeed set up in the NBS bay. The Scampton version was to repackage the Double Offset internals to allow two set of electronics to fit in a standard size box. The Scampton one became the standard competition fit and was the one rescued from the scrap bin for use on Black Buck.

[hulahoop7]

I noted that they talked about clearing the way for B52s by taking out the Baltic states and Leningrad. No mention of Moscow. So did the Moscow criterian become established after Polaris took on the role?

[NutLoose]

I would just like to say, what a fascinating discussion.

[Pontius Navigator]

hula, no. I know a Vulcan 1 had Moscow as a target pre-1967. The ingress and egress track to the target was 180/360 and this would have required penetration of both SA1 rings around the target.

[FJJP]

HTP was nasty stuff. It would combust in contact with clothing, which made it bad news. Each dispersal had a galvanised steel bath, heated to a comfortable temp and covered with table tennis balls to keep in the heat.

I once saw a groundcrew lad splashed with HTP – the crewchief grabbed him and ran him to the plungebath, totally immersing him. He came up coughing and spluttering before being run to the dispersal hut.

We had designated airfields around the UK which were ‘Hot Water’ offload bases. We would land and taxy to a dispersal with an exit path. The co-pilot would get into a protective suit, the AEO would stand on the aircraft steps to act as liaison between co-pilot and nav plotter and 1st pilot. The nav plotter would pump out the HTP, the Co pointed the hose at tthe grassy area, whilst the 1st pilot would be sitting with the inboard engines running ready to dump the missile and taxy away. The fire wagons flooded the grass which neutralised the HTP.

We did it at Kinloss once, and before long the aircraft was surrounded by the important all and sundry. When we advised them of the dangers of rubber necking, you have never seen such a flood of VIP’s race away from a spot on the airfield!

We regularly flew runs against Gernish Range in NW Scotland where we would practice freefall release of the missile – which involved a climb to 15,000 ft before release, followed by a smart turn 180 deg to get the hell out of the way!...

[RAFEngO74to09]

For anyone living outside the UK who can't use BBC iPlayer, the 2 episodes are now on You Tube:

Episode 1

Cold War Hot Jets S01E01 - YouTube

Episode 2 in 4 x 15-minute parts

Cold War Hot Jets (episode 2) 1 - YouTube

Cold War Hot Jets (episode 2) 2 - YouTube

Cold War Hot Jets (episode 2) 3 - YouTube

Cold War Hot Jets (episode 2) 4 - YouTube

[langleybaston]

covered with table tennis balls to keep in the heat.

I don't understand. TT balls INCREASE the effective area of the water, being continuously wetted over the whole of their surface area, thus increasing evaporation and also the direct transfer of heat to the air. Surely a load of balls?

[The Oberon]

Langley
I wondered about the table tennis balls and heated galvanised baths, they must have been rich kids at Scampton, no such luxuries at Wittering, ex MQ baths for the poor people near Stamford !
I was also interested in the jettison and taxi away Vulcan routine as such a thing would not have been possible with the Victor due to ground clearance. In fact I am now wondering about the wisdom of fitting Blue Steel to the Victor. In addition to the clearance problems mentioned, there were others, not least the lower vertical fin which had to be folded up when the A/C was on the ground. Originally the plan was to have the fin coupled to the wheels, wheels up fin down and vice versa, after several failures resulting in ground down fins when it failed to fold on landing, the system was immobilised and the fin kept folded up, in the event of a launch the fin was blown down using the emergency pneumatic system.

[Pontius Navigator]

Oberon, fin-fold was necessary on the Vulcan too.

Of the V-bombers, only the Vulcan with its delta wing and tall undercarriage was best suited for bombing up. The Valiant needed to be jacked up as did the Victor BS.

The Victor 2 would have made the better high level conventional bomber however. 35 bombs and a much better forward visibility for visual bombing.

[Lyneham Lad]

Might be memory-fade on my part (not unknown!) but as a spotty yoof on 'E' Dispersal at Scampton from late '64 to early '66, I do not recall such luxuries as 'plunge baths', heated or not. Best I can cudgel up are life-ex life rafts filled with water at ambient temp. A tad difficult to 'plunge' into in the depths of a Lincolnshire winter...

[1.3VStall]

Plunge baths were also de rigeur on Lightning squadrons as Avpin was a tadge nasty on bare skin.

The upside was that during summer beer calls at Guetersloh the crates of "charlie" could be placed into the plunge bath and the water kept icy cold with liberal blasts from a LOX hose!

[NutLoose]

covered with table tennis balls to keep in the heat.

I don't understand. TT balls INCREASE the effective area of the water, being continuously wetted over the whole of their surface area, thus increasing evaporation and also the direct transfer of heat to the air. Surely a load of balls?


Why would they be continually wetted? That would only occur I if they were moving, being hollow they would be trapped air and a good insulator. Depends how many layers deep too

[The Oberon]

Strikes me that the biggest problem would be running round catching the buggers after they had all blown away.

[NutLoose]

You could weight them :E

[tartare]

Thanks for posting these links.
Wonderful programme - and personally, I like the music.
Captures the feeling of flying in a fast jet.
There is nothing like it and you have to experience it to realise why.
You feel like you own the sky.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Depends how many layers deep too

That's avery good point. As ever, it's what we don't know that matters.

As we should expect from a Met wallah, langleybaston also makes a very good point. Pingpong balls have sufficient diameter to leave open surface gaps if in a single layer. We also need to know the thickness and coefficient of conductivity of the pingpong ball's shell, its radius, and the dryness of the gas (air?) it contains. Ballance that against the coefficient of radiance of the water.

Physics is our friend; it lets us fly (except bloody Gravity).

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Regarding the programme, I enjoyed it. It was certainly better than sod all. It was great seeing glimpses of so many long forgotton types. I may have blinked but I missed the Sturgeon, though.

We saw the FD1 and the FD2 but I missed reference to its significance as "faster than the Sun".

I agree that little credence was given to the relevance of tactical "cold warfare". Similarly, little significance was given to the turboprop/shaft and its contribution to Naval warfare and the Transport element of war. War without Logs is usually defeat.

[Pontius Navigator]

. . . little significance was given to the turboprop/shaft and its contribution to Naval warfare and the Transport element of war.


Clue? Jets?

Basically a huge canvas and the Beeb only commissioned a very small segment.

[Union Jack]

HTP was nasty stuff. It would combust in contact with clothing, which made it bad news.

To inject a near contemporary reference to the use of HTP by the dark blue, this reminds me precisely why the experimental HTP submarine HMS EXPLORER was commonly known as HMS EXPLODER, vide the following abbreviated quote from the MODUK website:

"
High Test Peroxide proved difficult to the point of being dangerous, and there was more than one contemporary report of explosions onboard, and at least one instance when the entire crew was forced to stand on the casing to avoid the noxious fumes, which had suddenly filled the boat. The high-test peroxide was a very volatile substance and was carried in special bags outside the pressure hull. Occasionally there would be a 'whoomph' as one of them exploded. Looking into the engine room, which was unmanned when under way, one could see flames dancing along the top of the combustion chamber. The crew did not look upon her as being dangerous.and took the bangs and fires as a matter of course. Fire drill became a very practised affair'."

I knew the second CO in later life, and recall how he said that the EXPLODER's crew were always easily recognisable by their charred footwear and ovies!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Jack

[langleybaston]

I made the assumption that, except in calm conditions, one's balls would usually be in motion, and therefore wetted. Not sure what capillary action of water on one's balls would be, either.
If we are trying to keep water warm, increasing its surface area by any means is a no no.
Just as saucering tea/ coffee when in a hurry.

However, I might just be wrong! Look at:
Halfbakery: Ping Pong Reservoir (http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Ping_20Pong_20Reservoir)

All metmen know that "when I'm right no-one remembers, when I'm wrong no-one forgets.

[Pontius Navigator]

LB, serious deviation but you are wrong.

1963, Stradishall, Met lecture on a Friday morning. Asked if any of us planned to go home that weekend. He then told us to ask our course commander for an early stack as Norfolk would be in deep snow by tea time. It was.

1969, Coningsby, beautiful day, 96m miles viz, no wind, definitely no coats weather. Enter Met man for morning prayers, he was wearing coat, scarf, hat, gloves and announced to the sceptical audience that there would be no flying that day. It was going to be deep in snow. It was. Indeed it started snowing before the end of the brief.

Mind you, he cheated, he had looked out the window before coming across to the brief.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Clue? Jets?


Good point; I had a flash back to the '50s Farnborough displays that announced the arrivals of Viscounts, Britannias and Gannets as prop-jets.

[Pontius Navigator]

GBZ, and of course there was another jet from the early 70s that carried on for 40 years and was as operational as the Javelin and Lightning. :}