SR-71 replacement

[West Coast]

The Aviationist » Lockheed Martin?s Skunk Works reveals a Mach 6 strike successor of SR-71 Blackbird dubbed SR-72 (http://theaviationist.com/2013/11/01/sr-72-unveiled/#.UnPG2RG9KSM)

[WeekendFlyer]

Hmm, I suspect the engine design may be challenging for that! A Mach 6 airframe is not outside the realms of possibility (it has been done before), but an air-breathing Mach 6 capable engine with a reasonable in-service life and sensible time between overhauls? Not so sure.

For Mach 6 cruise the jet efflux needs to exceed Mach 6, so you are looking at either very clever ramjets, scramjets or rockets, unless the US have managed to design and make an engine similar to the Uk Sabre air-breathing rocket engine concept. It will be interesting to see if this ever comes to pass...

[Eclectic]

Lockheed Aurora.
Methane fuelled piggy back plane. Pulse detonation engine. Mach 5. Now retired. Ran out of RAF Machrihanish.

[chevvron]

In planform, it looks like the orbital shuttle in 2001.

[Rosevidney1]

I was under the impression that improved capability satellites had meant a Blackbird successor was unnecessary. :confused:

[West Coast]

Now that satellites are obtainable targets on a scale not seen in the early 90's when the SR-71 was retired, I would think a bit of diversification is wise.

Who knows, perhaps the reasoning of sat coverage as a reason for the SR-71's retirement was a bit of disinformation.

[tartare]

Long rumoured electic, but never proven.
Is there now any more solid evidence, aside from sightings of a few odd contrails, weird aircraft escorted by F111s and strange calls to air traffic controllers?

[dragartist]

Purely by co-incidence I have just this evening finished reading Rich Grahams 1996 book. We had Rich over for our first lecture of the season at the Cambs RAeS in September.

At the end of our lecture the obvious question was asked about the existence of the follow on projects. Now for someone as passionate about the SR71 programme he kept a straight face in dispelling the myth.

Lets hope the aerodynamicists and technologists have solved the unstart issue.

According to the book. the UAVs Global Hawk and Darkstar were the successors to the SR and U2 recognising the deficiencies of the satellites available at the time.

[tartare]

Rocketdyne are revealing a little more information.
Lockheed and Aerojet Rocketdyne have developed a proprietary method to use an off the shelf F100 or F110 fighter engine, and accelerate it for short periods beyond M2.2 at which point the Scramjet lights (not surprisingly they won't reveal the ignition speed). They say they're ready to go, and all they have to counter now is the perception that hypersonics are unfeasibly expensive or too technically hard.
My boy met Rich Graham at Duxford next to the SR71 when he launched his book. It's still a spooky, alien looking jet in the flesh, even now.
Have devoured Ben Rich's and Bill Sweetman's books and followed hypersonic efforts for years, this is a very significant announcement.
Optionally manned, and optionally armed.
Imagine the challenges of weapon release travelling at 2kms a second.

[Laarbruch72]

After years of silence on the subject, Lockheed Martin’s Skunk Works has revealed exclusively to AW&ST details of long-running plans for what it describes as an affordable hypersonic intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) and strike platform


Yes of course they did. Black project teams are forever releasing details to magazines detailing what they're working on. Cue rolly eyes smiley.

[tartare]

Mate - have a look at Lockheed Martin's website if you don't believe it.
Lockheed Martin · Speed is the New Stealth (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/features/2013/sr-72.html)
Much in the same way that the SR71 and B2 were revealed - when the Company knew that a few reporters had found out - and decided to reveal the projects :rolleyes:

[Lima Juliet]

MQ-1, MQ-9 and RQ-170 provide some of the lost capability...and some...

http://www.uavglobal.com/wp-content/gallery/rq-170-sentinel/beast.jpg

The rest is probably picked up by X37...

http://www.uavglobal.com/wp-content/gallery/x-37/boeing_x-37bl.jpg

[Laarbruch72]

Mate - have a look at Lockheed Martin's website if you don't believe it.



Oh I do believe you that they've released something, I just don't believe they released anything more significant than some low, low level reasearch. This isn't an aircraft project at this stage, it's a concept and these get talked about all the time. If it were an aircraft project it wouldn't be released to a magazine.

[dead_pan]

Long rumoured electic, but never proven.

I vaguely remember many moons ago reading in Flight that Aurora inadvertently got a mention in one edition of the US's Soviet Military Power journal, and that when the mistake was spotted the copies were hastily withdrawn from circulation.

Can't find any references to this little-known incident on the 'net, but then maybe these have been redacted too.

[tartare]

Interesting.
Electic's suggestion it was piggy backed aka the D-21 is the first time I've heard that.
Maybe that North Sea oil rig worker who saw the F111's escorting something very strange all those years ago wasn't imagining things.
I have a copy of Bill Sweetman's Aurora book.
And the planform of Aurora he sketches out is almost exactly the same as the SR-72.
A waverider with 70 degree sweepback, chines, sharp wingtips.
Intriguing.

[hoodie]

Much in the same way that the ... B2 (was) revealed - when the Company knew that a few reporters had found out - and decided to reveal the projects

My strong memory (as an interested member of the non-US public) is that the existence of the Advanced Technology Bomber programme was well known a some time around the downselect between Northrop and Boeing competing designs was made in the early 80s.

The security was more around the detail of the designs themselves, not the programme or that an aircraft was being built.

Thyere is an often repeated story that the 1988 public unveiling of the B-2 at Palmdale went to some lengths to hide the planform because it was super-secret, except that those sneaky AvLeak jouros hired a Cessna and flew over the top because the dumb Guvmint had forgotten to close the airspace to civil traffic.

To me, that story doesn't stand up to lot lot of scrutiny, given that the following picture was taken from the public area on the day:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/B2_bomber_initial_rollout_ceremony_1988.jpg/800px-B2_bomber_initial_rollout_ceremony_1988.jpg

Note the star.

It's often difficult to differentiate between deliberate disinformation, genuine misunderstandings/mis-rememberings and active re-writing of history on this subject!

[dead_pan]

Maybe that North Sea oil rig worker who saw the F111's escorting something very strange all those years ago wasn't imagining things.


Hmm, I'm more sceptical of his claim of an F111 being used as a chase plane/escort. Dodgy a/c recce if you ask me...



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[MarcK]

Yes, Aviation Week did have a photograph of the B2 from above. Described this way in Wikipedia:
The B-2 was first publicly displayed on 22 November 1988 at Air Force Plant 42, Palmdale, California, where it was assembled. This viewing was heavily restricted, and guests were not allowed to see the rear of the B-2. However, Aviation Week editors found that there were no airspace restrictions above the presentation area and took photographs of the aircraft's then-secret planform and suppressed engine exhausts from the air, to the USAF's disappointment.
I was a subscriber in those days, and saw the pix.

[Laarbruch72]

And yet MarcK, those pics aren't available, despite the planform of the B2 and the engine exhausts being far from secret for about what, 20 or more years now?

[Sun Who]

http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/B2Spr09.pdf

Sun.

[MarcK]

The world-wide-web didn't exist in November, 1988, so there was no place to post pictures on-line. You can probably dig up a paper copy of AW&ST somewhere. There's one available on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aviation-Week-Space-Technology-November-28-1988-B-2-Bomber-Rolls-Out-/251346618343):

[NutLoose]

I always thought you wouldn't withdraw the SR71 unless you already had a replacement in place..... Only the British do that.

[tartare]

Nutty :ok:
For what it's worth - Chris Gibson's account of his 1989 sighting.
I wonder if there was a son of D-21 - perhaps manned...

CHRIS GIBSON'S AURORA SIGHTING
By Simon Gray

In August 1989, Chris Gibson, a Scottish oil-exploration engineer and, at the time, a member of the British Royal Observer Corps (ROC), was working on the oil rig Galveston Key in the North Sea when he noticed an aircraft in the shape of a pure isoceles triangle refuelling from a KC-135 Stratotanker alongside two F-111s.

The unknown aircraft, cruising in a formation northward through Air-to-Air Refuelling Area (AARA) 6A, is what people have come to believe, is the mysterious Aurora hypersonic spyplane. Another possible aircraft, which could have been seen over the North Sea however, is Northrop's A-17 stealth attack plane.

Chris Gibson's observation of the mysterious flying triangle is often cited by UFO researchers when the subject of Aurora rises. Below, Chris Gibson explains precisely what happened, as well as giving an insight into himself.

I welcome any questions on my North Sea sighting, as I am of the opinion that too much is taken at face value in the black aircraft snark hunt. I think that the snark hunt has degenerated into an exercise in regurgitating the same old stories with little or no new research being done.

A bit about me. I work as a drilling technologist for a major oil field service company. I hold an Honours degree in geology, with some engineering, geophysics and chemistry thrown in. I also did a post graduate course in systems analysis, I was a member of the Royal Observers Corps for 13 years and was a member of the ROC's aicraft recognition team for 12 of those years. In this field I was considered to be an expert and produced an aircraft recognition manual for the ROC. Some will obviously know the sighting story, but I'll fill you in on what happened from my point of view.

I was working in the indefatigable field on the jack-up rig 'Galvestion Key' in August 1989. My colleague, Graeme Winton, went out on deck but returned immediately. He told me to "have a look at this." We went outside and Graeme pointed skywards.

I had been at university with Graeme and he knew of my interest in aircraft. As far as Graeme was concerned it was a formation of aircraft and he reckoned I'd be interested. I looked up, saw the tanker and the F-111s, but was amazed to see the triangle. I am trained in instant recognition, but this triangle had me stopped dead. My first thought was that it was another F-111, but there was no 'gaps', it was too long and it didn't look like one.

My next thought was that it was an F-117, as the highly swept planform of the F-117 had just been made public. Again the triangle was too long and had no gaps. After considering and rejecting a Mirage IV, I was totally out of ideas. Here was an aircraft, flying over head, not too high and not particularly fast. A recognition gift and I was clueless. This was a new experience. Graeme asked me what was going on. I watched as the formation flew overhead and told him that the big one was a KC-135 Stratotanker, the two on the left were F-111s and that I didn't know what the fourth aircraft was.

Graeme said "I though you were an expert?" I said "I am." To which Graeme replied "Some expert."

It was obvious to me that this aircraft was something 'dodgy'. I watched the formation for a minute or two and went back inside with Graeme. At the time I was writing the aircraft recognition manual and had a Danish Luftmelderkorpset Flykendingsbog in my briefcase. This is probably the best aircraft recognition book ever produced. I looked through it, but nothing matched. I then sketched what I had seen and sent this to Peter Edwards, who was a Group Officer in the ROC and was also on the recognition team.

We discussed what to do about it but decided that if it was reported through official channels, it would be at best rubbished, at worst lead to trouble. Having signed the Official Secrets Act I didn't want to jeopardise my position in the recognition team, so I kept my mouth shut. I told other members of the recognition team in the hope that they could shed some light on the subject. On returning home I had a look through my book collection. The only aircraft which came close to matching what I had seen was a Handley Page HP115. It was not one of them. Whether this aircraft was a Aurora is debatable - my background precludes jumping to conclusions based on a single piece of evidence. I wrote to Bill Sweetman (Stealth expert) after being sent an illustration from Janes Defense Weekly which matched what I had seen.

As an aside, I wrote to two other writers who did not reply. Bill reckons it was Aurora; Agenct 'X' reckons it was the FB-119. I don't know what it was. It is the only aircraft I have ever seen that I could not identify. Pete Edwards told Bill Sweetman that if I didn't know what this aircraft was, it isn't in any book. I've been hunting this 'snark' for almost 9 years now and have turned up some interesting stuff, mainly through my own efforts, but also by having looked in the most unusual places. Talking to the people involved is a necessity.

As I said before, I welcome the healthy scepticism, but at least give me the opportunity to state my case.

[RequestPidgeons]

Maybe that North Sea oil rig worker who saw the F111's escorting something very strange all those years ago wasn't imagining things.

I recall being in UK in October 90 when a fast mover was detected moving up the North Sea from out of Germany. Spoke with the QRA crew, who could not get close to it!

Seemed to tie in with some Gulf War One recce and description was of a deltoid plan-form.

[obgraham]

Why in the world would you need to build a spy plane going that fast?

Much more sensible to just go smaller. Like dragonfly size.

[The B Word]

I'm surprised no-one has posted this...

http://www.unrealaircraft.com/gravity/images/aurora1.jpeg










...By the way, it's a fake! :ok:

[Eclectic]

Satellites are very limited.
They run on polar sun synchronous orbits. In the early morning and evening, when they have good shadows to give 3D information.
So their presence runs to a timetable and anyone on the ground just needs to throw a tarpoline at the appropriate over anything they want to hide.
The KH 11s (and KH 12s, which are the stealth version) have finite manoeuvre fuel to correct their orbits or to move to new orbits. So they are pretty much stuck with what they can see.
In the Falklands war the Americans changed the orbit of one or more of these satellites to give us photo intelligence, using up the manoeuvre fuel and very significantly shortening the satellites lives. Considering that they cost over $3 billion each in 2013 dollars this was a huge gift from the Americans to us.

Reconnaissance drones are still very limited. They are only really any use in tactical situations in uncontested airspace. The Iranians regularly shoot down USA and Israeli drones.

Aurora was a black project, like the F-117, kept secret from the public. Forensic accountants found how it was funded, so we have multiple sources of evidence of its existence. It managed to come into service then out of service whilst still remaining secret. It is thought that there were major problems with it, shortening its service life and leading to the SR 71s coming back out of retirement.

[Bevo]

Maybe just a little marketing in this press release. It appears that Lockheed is attempting to get government funding for a project that the company has been self-funding. There are more than a few technical problems that need to be overcome.



http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/TurboBob/Military/PUB_HTV_Progression_DARPA_2008_lg_zpsa63521c6.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/TurboBob/Military/PUB_Vulcan_Combined_Cycle_Technologies_lg_zps8214737e.jpg

Lockheed declined to say how much it had invested in the SR-72 project to date, or what the new airplane might cost if it is ever built. But it said it had tried to keep the current tight budget environment in mind while working on the project………………………

He said the company and its partners had developed and tested key components of the proposed new aircraft using their own internal research funding, but the program needed additional funds to move ahead with larger-scale demonstrations of the technologies involved.
http://www.reuters.com (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/01/us-lockheed-hypersonic-idUSBRE9A011820131101)

[Eclectic]

There are lots of interweb articles about this.
Here is one that isn't too tinfoil hat: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/90691e28b42
And this one reckons that the project is very well advanced: SR-72 Confirmed: Mach 6 Project Blackswift , page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread299174/pg1)

[Heimdall]

I very much doubt this hypersonic aircraft will fly in the timescale suggested by Lockheed.

I suspect that for many years the USAF have been using a number of very stealthy, high-altitude, long endurance UAVs to provide coverage of denied areas. The RQ-170 was an old low-tech UAV that had been in use for a number of years. I think it may have been deliberately crashed in Iran in the hope that, whilst they were examining the on-board software, a hidden virus would find its way onto Iranian systems and eventually bugger up their nuclear programme.

Heimdall

[barnstormer1968]

It would have been a bit pointless to introduce a virus via a crashed UAV as it had already been done a different way.

[tartare]

For me the interesting part in all of this is that they claim to have developed a way of incorporating an off the shelf fighter weight turbojet into a working scramjet. If this is true - potentially there are much wider applications than just the SR-72.

[West Coast]

My thoughts as well, that was the most interesting part of the article.

[Bevo]

For me the interesting part in all of this is that they claim to have developed a way of incorporating an off the shelf fighter weight turbojet into a working scramjet. If this is true - potentially there are much wider applications than just the SR-72.

In this case I believe that the claim of having developed a way to use a turbojet is still a very long way from proving it can be made to work. One of the problems with hypersonic flight is that it is very difficult to prove risk reduction with ground tests as duplicating the flight environment is very hard.

There have only been two recent flight tests for hypersonic vehicles/propulsion; Lockheed's HTV-2 test on approximately April 26, 2010 and Boeing's X-51 flight on May 03, 2013. The Lockheed test was not considered a success, and the Boeing X-51 flight lasted 3.6 minutes but the vehicle was rocket assisted.

Again, I am not saying it is not feasible. I am saying that having a tested propulsion system and a full up operationally usable vehicle is a long way off.

[chopper2004]

Half a century ago, Lockheed Martin had the A-12 followed by the SR-71...if they did it back then with what they had.....fast forward to the Reagan administration, and then to the first Bush administration, should not been a problem to cobble something faster and less vulnerable to the then latest Soviet SAMs and Triple-A???

IIRC, the SR-71 when it was brought back out of retirement, stuck around for 6/7 years while the NASA pair were kept till 99 before their last flight?

Magic question I have is, after 9/11, I wonder if anyone in the Pentagon considered bringing them back out of retirement / mothball for urgent reece over Afghan and Mid East.

Tacit Blue and Bird of Prey were revealed publicly a decade or so after flying in secret. I know they were technology demonstrators, which flew for a few years, but if the timeline of the Aurora supposedly operated within the 90s and retired, it could be about time to be revealed to the aviation community, could it not?

Area 51 has been officially acknowledged by the Obama administration so could this SR-72 be the Aurora coming into light, assuming the airframe probably existed for over a decade if not two.

The sighting by Gibson over the North Sea (coinciding with the Leuchars SATCO curious about the extremely fast mover from Machrihanish area, told to mind his own business and ignore the blip earlier in the year or year before)
marks up a few question marks.....I agree the F-111C pair is a bit odd, (could be the Lakenheath and the then Upper Heyford lot and logic dictates it be the Wing CO if not the base commanders flying) . Unless they came from the Test Force at Edwards...

Could hazard a guess that the KC-135 in the description, be a Q model with JP-7 refueling the Aurora again from the then 9th Det 4 from the 'Hall (or had they and the SR-71 pair gone by 1990?)

And what about the two seat test vehicle whose landing gear collapsed down in the west country in late 94, with two American voices calling a Pan and got injured, (not sure if there was 1 fatality). Then the C-5A assigned to LM on its way to the Eifel Valley, told to divert into the west country to pick up the test vehicle a few nights later?

I'm sure somewhere, some aviation enthusiast probably wrote on a forum or in one of the aviation pubs, you find in WH Smiths, that the Aurora supposedly flew from Fairford during Allied Force.

Cheers

[tartare]

Agree.
It's not at all tinfoil hat territory - there are many pointers to an as yet unknown SR-71 successor.

[AtomKraft]

Indeed.

We often hear the old 'SR-71 was replaced by the satellites' arguament- but, as ane fule no, the orbits are soooo predictable.

The need for a top line recce a/c has never gone away- so if the US simply abandoned the requirement (or went back to the previous one) - it would be quite a big deal.

Anyway, try getting into Area 51 to check!

[500N]

"Area 51 has been officially acknowledged by the Obama administration"

Only because it was pointless denying it any longer considering how much
has been written and said about it by people who worked there. And acknowledging it doesn't given anything away.

[Fareastdriver]

The Chinese have got it on their Xinhua website. Nice piccies of SR71s as well.

Meet Son of Blackbird -- SR-72 - Xinhua | English.news.cn (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-11/04/c_132856899.htm)

[Willard Whyte]

Meet Son of Blackbird -- SR-72 - Xinhua | English.news.cn

The unbelievably flexible woman looks interesting too.

[West Coast]

She brings back memories of a Vegas trip in the 90's....

Perhaps Harry might know of her.

[BEagle]

Perhaps Harry might know of her.

I doubt it - but a few Air Engineers will no doubt recognise another female on that site! I'll give you a clue - not Chinese underwear fashion week but the one underneath....:eek:!

[Justin_Bronk]

Hi all,

Like you I've been very interested in the details of the SR-72 project that have emerged...
I'd be interested to know what you all make of the implications I've tried to read into the SR-72 announcement in this article for a defence think-tank?

RUSI - Speed is the New Stealth: The SR-72 Challenges the Future at Mach 6 (http://www.rusi.org/analysis/commentary/ref:C527914DFE0ACE/)

Looking forward to your comments!

Justin

[Eclectic]

Radar evading stealth is partly a myth and technology exists to beat it to a large degree now.
However physics is physics and a very high very fast target takes a huge amount of reaching. Even simple manoeuvres by the target are difficult to counter.
SR 72 looks to be an unpiloted, cheaper and less complicated son of the Aurora black project, which had a relatively short service life. Probably due to technical or budgetary problems.

Control technology has come as far as the X 45, where the vehicle is autonomous. It is not "flown" from the ground, just told what its mission is. This is ideal for high speed, high altitude reconnaissance.

[West Coast]

Call me a skeptic, but I'm not going to place much on one graphic, quite possibly a marketing scheme to determine complexity and price. There's likely forensic accountants out there trying to determine the facts with a whole lot more than a press release.

[GeeRam]

The sighting by Gibson over the North Sea (coinciding with the Leuchars SATCO curious about the extremely fast mover from Machrihanish area, told to mind his own business and ignore the blip earlier in the year or year before)
marks up a few question marks.....I agree the F-111C pair is a bit odd, (could be the Lakenheath and the then Upper Heyford lot and logic dictates it be the Wing CO if not the base commanders flying) . Unless they came from the Test Force at Edwards...

Could hazard a guess that the KC-135 in the description, be a Q model with JP-7 refueling the Aurora again from the then 9th Det 4 from the 'Hall (or had they and the SR-71 pair gone by 1990?)

Gibson's North Sea siting was Aug '89 according to that post, so still within Det 4's time at the 'hall - just.
Last SR-71 mission from the 'hall was in late Nov '89, with the last a/c departing UK in early Jan '90.

[chopper2004]

Amid SR-72 Rumors, Skunk Works Ramps Up Hypersonics | Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/amid-sr-72-rumors-skunk-works-ramps-hypersonics)

skunk Works is believed to be planning the start of FRV development next year, with first flight targeted for 2020. The FRV will be around the same size as an F-22 and powered by a full-scale, combined-cycle engine. However, in the run-up to the demonstrator development, Lockheed is thought to be testing several discrete technologies in a series of ground and flight tests.

According to information provided to Aviation Week, one such technology demonstrator, believed to be an unmanned subscale aircraft, was observed flying into the U.S. Air Force’s Plant 42 at Palmdale, where Skunk Works is headquartered. The vehicle, which was noted landing in the early hours at an unspecified date in late July, was seen with two T-38 escorts. Lockheed Martin declined to comment directly on the sighting".

[tartare]

This is fascinating - can't wait to see it in the flesh.
Now come on Marillyn - unmanned just isn't cool - there's got to be room enough up the front for at least one guy or gal in a yellow David Clark (http://www.davidclarkcompany.com/aerospace/) suit...?!

[Lonewolf_50]

From the comments at chopper2004's link
The SR-71 was used over contested airspaces, with an estimated 3000 missiles fired at it. This ought to suggest that early Russian radar systems could see the plane, but the missiles could not catch it. Russian systems now in place would not have any such problems, which is the ultimate reason for the retirement


DARPA signs a contract with Reaction Engines to evaluate the precooler technology of the SABRE engine, including building 'a high-temperature airflow evaluation facility', and Skunk Works hints at Mach 5+ SR-72.
Add in that AFRL validated the concept two years ago and what comes to mind?
A lot of high tech jobs.

[gums]

Salute!

I do not agree with Eclectic's assertion that "stealth" can be easily defeated. Remember, it's not that you have the "Romulan" cloaking device and remain 100% invisible until bomb release. You just have to make it really hard for the other side to detect you in time to do anything about it. Ask the 4th gen folks at the last two Red Flag exercises. The SR-71 missions flown in the 70's and 80's reflect this aspect of the engagements.

In my personal experience, our unit (18th FIS at Grand Forks) fired Genie rockets at M3+ Bomarc missiles back in the 60's, and despite a decent Bomarc RCS, only a slight change in course by the Bomarc ruined out intercept. Computers are much better now, however you still have to detect the target in time to get a good solution by your fire control system, not the long range stuff that tells you about where to go and serach, but not exactly.

I later flew down a chaff corridor over Hanoi in 1972 and the bad guys did not lock us up until we were coming down the chute and released our bombs.

The latest avionics are cosmic, but the final decision to engage or whatever is still relegated to a human being. So human factors and tactics and such come into play.

Gums opines....

[Martin the Martian]

Hmm, I'm more sceptical of his claim of an F111 being used as a chase plane/escort. Dodgy a/c recce if you ask me...



Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

Not at all. Read his background:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2868.0.html

[tartare]

I later flew down a chaff corridor over Hanoi in 1972 ....

My level of respect was high already and has now increased exponentially... sir.

[Shaft109]

I once read somewhere and trying to think where - that to support the main Lockheed Skunk works David Clark company set up their own in the back of a department store to help with some suits or similar safety equipment.

I’m probably misquoting but those details stuck in my head- can anyone shed any light?

Either way shows what small focussed groups can do.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Here is a link to the "Boscombe Down Incident"
RAF Boscombe Down's Black Day (http://www.dreamlandresort.com/black_projects/boscombe.htm)
I think we may be confusing two aircraft -:
1) SR-71 - Aurora - Replacement aircraft High and Fast
2) TR-3 (?) Tac. recon. aircraft possibly developed from YF-23 which was more stealthy than F-22 but more expensive too.
Weren't some of the F-117 guys in the gulf seen wearing team stealth patches with two aircraft silhouettes ?
Aurora was probably unsuccessful long term, the examination of funding shows something very expensive in the right time frame, lets not forget the SR71 looked at a lot of places not just USSR.
Be lucky
David

[sandiego89]

I once read somewhere and trying to think where - that to support the main Lockheed Skunk works David Clark company set up their own in the back of a department store to help with some suits or similar safety equipment.

I’m probably misquoting but those details stuck in my head- can anyone shed any light?

Either way shows what small focussed groups can do.


The David Clark Company was the go to source for early US pressure suits, and still is a leader today. Your memory of department stores may stem from the fact that the company was also a leader of woman's undergarments, so had good knowledge of tight fitting garments, support etc. Getting into a tight girdle may have some similarities to cinching up a pressure suit :O There are stories of early U2, A-11, SR-71 crews quietly going to a rear entrance at the David Clark company HQ in Massachusetts for fittings as each pressure suit was custom made. Those era suits were quite similar to the Mercury space suits.

[crackling jet]

Who knows, perhaps the reasoning of sat coverage as a reason for the SR-71's retirement was a bit of disinformation.[/QUOTE]


I seem to remember a few years back that the reason the Blackbird was kept In service was that it was faster to get the asset over any location than re tasking a satellite for the job, seems a fair point and if it's gone what replaced it ?

[chopper2004]

Happy New Year all

Apparently there has been a scaled down tech demonstrator sighted ...amongst Palmdale..

https://theaviationist.com/2017/10/12/the-enigmatic-sr-72-and-the-palmdale-sightings-what-do-they-tell-us-about-americas-secret-hypersonic-program/


Btw I picked this up from Greatest Planes That Never Were FB group -before anyone suggests I read the Fail ..it’s laughable calling the SR-72 a ‘bomber’ ☠️😝🤣🧐

SR-72 hypersonic bomber 'has already been made' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5251961/SR-72-hypersonic-bomber-made.html)

[ORAC]

https://youtu.be/vp_WfB2yKD4

[George K Lee]

It's a lot to read into one speaker's choice of tense. The public record is that LM and its main partner have been fishing for tech demonstration money for a while, and have found some.

DARPA Awards Aerojet Rocketdyne Contract to Develop Hypersonic Advanced Full Range Engine | Aerojet Rocketdyne (http://www.rocket.com/article/darpa-awards-aerojet-rocketdyne-contract-develop-hypersonic-advanced-full-range-engine)

Not to say that there haven't been precursor programs, but that seems to be the story on "SR-72".

[Megaton]

What a load of nonsense. It’s history now but the link to Boscombe Down’s Black Day doesn’t belong on here. Apply Occam's Razor and you’ll probably come up with the correct answer.

[SASless]

A recent overhead showed an odd looking aircraft down at an engine facility near West Palm Beach shaped very much like one of these sooper dooper go fasts.

Lots of speculation about that.

[chopper2004]

A recent overhead showed an odd looking aircraft down at an engine facility near West Palm Beach shaped very much like one of these sooper dooper go fasts.

Lots of speculation about that.

Only mil facility with long runway be way north- Patrick AFB/Caneveral Station...or further south to Homestead and then further ; Boca Chica?

cant exactly land at nearest FBO or Miami Intl?

cheers

[SpringHeeledJack]

A recent overhead showed an odd looking aircraft down at an engine facility near West Palm Beach shaped very much like one of these sooper dooper go fasts.

Lots of speculation about that.

Apparently a Sikorsky/P&W test vehicle used for ground taxi thrust tests. Airfield next to Palm Beach Raceway.

[BossEyed]

For those who haven't seen it, this is the thing at WPB being discussed (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Palm+Beach+International+Raceway/@26.9282588,-80.3405968,142m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88decdc5ab54ebd3:0x28bf1536e196d19 3!8m2!3d26.9171618!4d-80.3054287).

[chopper2004]

Apparently a Sikorsky/P&W test vehicle used for ground taxi thrust tests. Airfield next to Palm Beach Raceway.

That brings me to a story one of my colleagues was telling me around 2 decades ago. He went over to Palm Beach to pick up S-76A for a UK customer as it was just finishing some flight trials there.

He was sat in one of the managers office drinking coffee, (mid morning) checking the tech manuals, chewing the fat etc when corner of his eye -some dark colored rotorcraft whizzed past the window. The lightheartedness and humor in the office went dark and the manager was visibly upset and said "you never saw that".

He said it was not a S-70 or UH-60 type arguably it could have been one of the two RAH-66 Comanche prototypes but this was in the early 90s before the Comanche flew in 96.....

Either someone in the HawkWorks forgot there was a foreign visitor in this case a Brit on site who was taking delivery of a new VIP a/c or someone forgot to mention it to the other folk on site...

cheers

[BossEyed]

Given that it's a small field and State Road 710 from Okeechobee to West Palm Beach runs right by the airport, anything airborne would be easily visible to the public anyway, it seems pretty unlikely that a random Brit on site would be any more of a security threat than A Random Bloke passing by outside.

Then again, the road is "SR71 0" <Twilight Zone noises>

[LOMCEVAK]

As the 'RAF Boscombe Down's Black Day' link has been posted here, may I add some facts surrounding this; I was a test pilot on Experimental Flying Squadron at Boscombe at the time. The first that we knew of this story was when it appeared in The Sunday Express. At morning briefing the next day the Group Captain Superintendent of Flying stood up and asked if anyone knew what the hell the story was about! We concluded that it revolved around two items.

First, trials were being flown at that time of the Towed Radar Decoy system on the Tornado F3 and on one sortie the crew were unable to jettison the decoy and had to land with it still attached. The runway in use at Boscombe was 05 where the approach is over the main Amesbury to Salisbury road so the police closed the road while the aircraft landed. An Emergency State was declared such that the Fire and Rescue vehicles positioned at the threshold and followed the aircraft after it touched down. It was shut down on the runway because it could not taxi back with the decoy still attached. If you look at a Tornado tail-on it appears to sit nose low.

Secondly, Tornado F2A ZD902, the Tornado Integrated Avionics Research Aircraft, was in one of the hangars for maintenance. It was parked with the airbrakes open, canopy removed and the nose section containing the windscreen, which hinges at the front, raised. The cockpit was covered in a tarpaulin to prevent contamination by the resident pigeons. I walked across the apron after watching the last flight of the Nightbird Buccaneer and the hangar doors were fully open at both ends and, with the sun aspect, TIARA looked most unusual and not like a Tornado at all; I did comment on this at the time.

And so starts a good rumour and conspiracy theory ....

In the mid 1980's, two Boscombe Down 'A' Squadron TPs did carry out an evaluation of the F-117. However, such evaluations were part of the squadron's task and similar assessments had been flown on the F-15, YF-17 and EAP. Also, an RAF pilot who did an exchange tour on the F-117 subsequently trained as a TP at ETPS then served as a TP at Farnborough before leaving the RAF and working as a TP for BAE at Warton.

The ASTRA Hawk was a variable stability aircraft which was operated by ETPS and not RAFCAM, ASTRA standing for Airborne Simulation, Training and Research Aircraft.

I genuinely have no knowledge of any of the other aspects of the story!

Rgds

L

[ion_berkley]

For those who haven't seen it, this is the thing at WPB being discussed (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Palm+Beach+International+Raceway/@26.9282588,-80.3405968,142m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88decdc5ab54ebd3:0x28bf1536e196d19 3!8m2!3d26.9171618!4d-80.3054287).

That is without a shadow of doubt an RF test range, not an engine test facility (of which there are numerous just south). Note the large dish array with zero elevation and the test stand at the end of the "runway"/range...some one is measuring RCS of an interesting aeroshape.

[Green Flash]

Ion, note also a similar shape on the other side of the shed from the object of interest.

[George K Lee]

Apply Occam's Razor and you’ll probably come up with the correct answer.

Or you might get Occam's facial hair.

The WPB site is an RCS range. Probably Sikorsky and P&W's. Protip: on a full version of GE, use the historic imagery slider to find out how long it's been there. There are quite a few RCS ranges scattered around the U.S., many of them abandoned or little used.

As for the object, it looks like the disembodied ass-end of a single-engine jet with an axi nozzle.

[Ogre]

And so starts a good rumour and conspiracy theory ....

.....I genuinely have no knowledge of any of the other aspects of the story!

Rgds

L

L.

Well you would say that, wouldn't you......:E:E:E:E

[Alicatt]

Zoom out on the image, the engine test stands are a little further south and west.

Also if you go back to the image from 5/2017 then the "object" that is sitting behind the radio dishes is sitting on top of a pole at the other end of the test strip :)

[chopper2004]

As the 'RAF Boscombe Down's Black Day' link has been posted here, may I add some facts surrounding this; I was a test pilot on Experimental Flying Squadron at Boscombe at the time. The first that we knew of this story was when it appeared in The Sunday Express. At morning briefing the next day the Group Captain Superintendent of Flying stood up and asked if anyone knew what the hell the story was about! We concluded that it revolved around two items.

First, trials were being flown at that time of the Towed Radar Decoy system on the Tornado F3 and on one sortie the crew were unable to jettison the decoy and had to land with it still attached. The runway in use at Boscombe was 05 where the approach is over the main Amesbury to Salisbury road so the police closed the road while the aircraft landed. An Emergency State was declared such that the Fire and Rescue vehicles positioned at the threshold and followed the aircraft after it touched down. It was shut down on the runway because it could not taxi back with the decoy still attached. If you look at a Tornado tail-on it appears to sit nose low.

Secondly, Tornado F2A ZD902, the Tornado Integrated Avionics Research Aircraft, was in one of the hangars for maintenance. It was parked with the airbrakes open, canopy removed and the nose section containing the windscreen, which hinges at the front, raised. The cockpit was covered in a tarpaulin to prevent contamination by the resident pigeons. I walked across the apron after watching the last flight of the Nightbird Buccaneer and the hangar doors were fully open at both ends and, with the sun aspect, TIARA looked most unusual and not like a Tornado at all; I did comment on this at the time.

And so starts a good rumour and conspiracy theory ....

In the mid 1980's, two Boscombe Down 'A' Squadron TPs did carry out an evaluation of the F-117. However, such evaluations were part of the squadron's task and similar assessments had been flown on the F-15, YF-17 and EAP. Also, an RAF pilot who did an exchange tour on the F-117 subsequently trained as a TP at ETPS then served as a TP at Farnborough before leaving the RAF and working as a TP for BAE at Warton.

The ASTRA Hawk was a variable stability aircraft which was operated by ETPS and not RAFCAM, ASTRA standing for Airborne Simulation, Training and Research Aircraft.

I genuinely have no knowledge of any of the other aspects of the story!

Rgds

L

Yep said TP on F-117 won the McKenna trophy and was on BBC Tv Series Test Pilot. His background was Buccs and think one of the youngest students:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=8204s&v=vFfWqd9p33k

He was a Flt Lt at time of bing summoned stateside along with Sqn Ldr

Cheers

[chopper2004]

Given that it's a small field and State Road 710 from Okeechobee to West Palm Beach runs right by the airport, anything airborne would be easily visible to the public anyway, it seems pretty unlikely that a random Brit on site would be any more of a security threat than A Random Bloke passing by outside.

Then again, the road is "SR71 0" <Twilight Zone noises>

Ah interesting point there which brings me to someone posted in Sexret Projects forum about the SR-72 demonstrator sighting at Palmdale. They said Plant 42 is not as isolated as believed due to ongoing urban devlopments and mile or so from main highways. Subsequently things cannot be flown under wraps there for long without being observed by the general public.

Cheers

[SASless]

I worked at that WPB place back in the early 80's.

There's been quite a few hush-hush projects pass through there over the decades....none of which I knew about despite working there.

But then a Gentleman knows when to avert his eyes now don't he.

[Airbubba]

I worked at that WPB place back in the early 80's.

That well lit Pratt facility in the swamp has stood out for decades as you fly over South Florida at night.

I don't believe I ever noticed the WPB radar cross section facility. Lockheed has an old but apparently still active RCS range southeast of MCO:

Radar Cross Section Facility in St Cloud, FL (Google Maps) - Virtual Globetrotting (http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/radar-cross-section-facility/view/google/)

Ion, note also a similar shape on the other side of the shed from the object of interest.

On the north side of the WPB Google Maps shot is what looks to me like a similar but different double diamond shaped object covered in a tarpaulin. Could it be somebody's boat? ;)

[chopper2004]

I worked at that WPB place back in the early 80's.

There's been quite a few hush-hush projects pass through there over the decades....none of which I knew about despite working there.

But then a Gentleman knows when to avert his eyes now don't he.

:mad:

Lol is that what you tell your gfs/ wives over the years lol

The other L-M Sikorsky spooky place apart from WPB be Elmira ( formerly Schweizer ) where HawkWorks is based

Indications Of Hawk Works In U.S. Stealth Helicopter | AWIN content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/awin/indications-hawk-works-us-stealth-helicopter)

Cheers

[George K Lee]

Airbubba - I think that's the ex-Martin-Marietta range built in the 1980s.

[tdracer]

I spent a lot of time at that Pratt facility in the early 1980's observing JT9D engine testing. IIRC, back then Pratt flew a corporate 727 shuttle between there and East Harford every weekday. Heard some interesting sounding jet engines in the distance while working there. At least at the time, security was pretty lax - they even had a rental car desk at that airport (I swapped out my rental there one time when the one I got from the West Palm Beach airport was a POS).


BTW, it appears it's not just LockMart - Boeing is working on something as well.
Boeing Unveils Hypersonic ?Son-Of-Blackbird? Contender | Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/boeing-unveils-hypersonic-son-blackbird-contender?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20180112_AW-05_504&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000002544393&utm_campaign=13215&utm_medium=email&elq2=ecb82205634f48f491b36ef3e003e534)

[unmanned_droid]

For those who haven't seen it, this is the thing at WPB being discussed (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Palm+Beach+International+Raceway/@26.9282588,-80.3405968,142m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88decdc5ab54ebd3:0x28bf1536e196d19 3!8m2!3d26.9171618!4d-80.3054287).

OK, that isn't optimised for the speeds involved at SR71 or higher.

[ORAC]

Looks more like a money making machine than a war making machine......

AW&ST: Boeing Unveils Hypersonic ‘Son-Of-Blackbird’ Contender (http://aviationweek.com/defense/boeing-unveils-hypersonic-son-blackbird-contender)

http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/imagecache/medium_img/uploads/2018/01/file-1.jpeg

ORLANDO, Florida—Amid continuing signs of a significant upswing in U.S. hypersonic research and development, Boeing has revealed first details of a reusable Mach 5-plus demonstrator vehicle design that could pave the way for a future high-speed strike and reconnaissance aircraft...... If the concept is selected for full-scale development, Boeing envisions a two-step process beginning with flight tests of an F-16-sized, single-engine proof-of-concept precursor vehicle leading to a twin-engine, full-scale operational vehicle with about the same dimensions as the 107-ft.-long SR-71.

The concept model was unveiled at the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics SciTech forum here. Speaking to Aerospace DAILY on the sidelines of the show, Bowcutt says the twin-tail, waverider configuration continues to evolve but is already representative of a feasible hypersonic design. “It’s a really hard problem to develop an aircraft that takes off and accelerates through Mach 1 all the way to Mach 5 and beyond. The specific impulse of an air breathing engine goes down with increasing velocity, so you have to make the engine bigger to get to Mach 5. But doing that means a bigger inlet and a bigger nozzle, and trying to get that through Mach 1 is harder.” But Bowcutt says careful integration of the airframe and propulsion system through multidisciplinary design optimization (MDO), a process in which designers incorporate all relevant disciplines simultaneously, has enabled Boeing to develop a working configuration. MDO was used to finalize the design of the X-51A Waverider Which was the first vehicle to demonstrate sustained air-breathing hypersonic flight.

Although initially independently funded by Boeing, development of the hypersonic vehicle concept is continuing under Darpa’s Advanced Full Range Engine (AFRE) initiative and a closely-related turbine-based combined cycle (TBCC) flight demonstration concept study run by the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory. Boeing’s engine partner for the concept is Orbital ATK, which in September 2017 was awarded a $21.4 million contract for the AFRE program. Boeing began work on the AFRL TBCC flight demonstrator concept study, with Orbital ATK as a subcontractor, in 2016.

The vehicle configuration is dominated by the TBCC propulsion system, which combines conventional turbine engines with dual-mode ramjets/scramjets (DMRJ). The turbine engines operate up to a sufficiently high Mach number to enable transition to the DMRJ. The engines will share a common inlet and nozzle, with the turbine cocooned after transition and then restarted once the hypersonic vehicle slows down for return to a runway landing. The inlets are divided by a prominent septum derived from the XB-70, Bowcutt says, adding that the TBCC is only one of a number of potential propulsion options. The nozzles also are separated by a prominent boat-tail divider.

“The propulsion system determines the length of the vehicle,” says Tom Smith, Boeing Research and Technology chief hypersonic aircraft designer. Although Boeing declines to discuss specific aspects of the design, the broad inlets and wide lower fuselage-mounted nacelle suggest the turbine and DMRJ in each TBCC engine are housed side-by-side rather than arranged in an over-under configuration.

The inward-turning inlets are positioned to capture the initial shockwave from the nose of the vehicle, while the sharply swept forebody chines are contoured into the relatively large-span delta wing to provide waveriding capability at hypersonic speed and sufficient lift for landing and takeoff at subsonic speed. The term waverider refers to a design in which the vehicle rides the shockwave attached to the leading edge, thus benefiting from lower induced drag. “As the narrow chine transitions to the wing, that produces a good vortex, which you care about at low speed,” Smith says.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTNCUutX0AAjHbu?format=jpg

[Buster Hyman]

So this is what Norway is getting huh? This is the F-52?

:eek::rolleyes::ugh::p

[SASless]

The UK bought the F-35 for two carriers it did not have as I recall with a resulting race to see if the ships or the aircraft are the last to be delivered.

[BEagle]

Is that Boeing design a manned aircraft - or just rather a quick drone?

If Boeing's development skills for the KC-46A Pigosaurus are anything to go by, it'll be years before that hypersonic demonstrator takes to the air...

[Airbubba]

Airbubba - I think that's the ex-Martin-Marietta range built in the 1980s.

It is. :ok:

I used to fly a bizjet into a nearby private strip on occasion. I knew a couple of Martin executives back in the day and asked them about the facility. Both admitted that they knew it was an important national defense operation with tight security but claimed to know nothing more.

The nearby private strip was on another secret test facility, Lake Conlin, aka Lake X:

The Outboard Expert: Off the Map at Lake X - boats.com (http://www.boats.com/reviews/outboard-expert-lake-x/#.WluLjUxFyuk)

[George K Lee]

That's interesting, AirB... because M-M actually put out a press release about it in the early 1980s. But some things like that happened then, and eventually people got the word to not even utter the S-word, whether they had black-world contracts or not.

[Davef68]

That is without a shadow of doubt an RF test range, not an engine test facility (of which there are numerous just south). Note the large dish array with zero elevation and the test stand at the end of the "runway"/range...some one is measuring RCS of an interesting aeroshape.


You can see the shadow of the mounting pole at the other end of the 'runway'

[dragartist]

F117
Was someone asking about RAF Pilots having flown the F117?
https://www.dsei.co.uk/speakers/air-cdre-lincoln-taylor#/
Don't think any ever flew SR71 but I will ask Rich Graham next time I see him in May

[Airbubba]

F117
Was someone asking about RAF Pilots having flown the F117?
https://www.dsei.co.uk/speakers/air-cdre-lincoln-taylor#/
Don't think any ever flew SR71 but I will ask Rich Graham next time I see him in May

Here's a list of SR-71 drivers and VIP pax, don't see any RAF types:

Listing of all Personel who flew the Blackbirds (http://www.sr71.us/Supp_BBook.htm)

[gums]

Hey Bubba! ORAC! Others....

Check out this vehicle that was featured this week in the AvWeek Daily Digest. Need time to recover from vehicle breakdown 300 miles from home and car still FUBAR. So I can't research further.

USAF Spending Big On Technology Transition Projects | Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/usaf-spending-big-technology-transition-projects)

The lead picture is veeeeeery intereeeesting.

http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/imagecache/medium_img/uploads/2018/01/autonomous-aircraft-afrl.jpg

http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/imagecache/medium_img/uploads/2018/01/autonomous-aircraft-afrl.jpg

That sucker looks like it has the combined cycle propulsion that Lockheed touted a few weeks back. Looks like two intakes, and the conventional turbjet/turbofan lup higher than the other intake. Sucker also seems stealthy design.

Gums wonders.....

[FlightlessParrot]

Hey Bubba! ORAC! Others....


That sucker looks like it has the combined cycle propulsion that Lockheed touted a few weeks back. Looks like two intakes, and the conventional turbjet/turbofan lup higher than the other intake. Sucker also seems stealthy design.

Gums wonders.....

That's how I saw the picture at first, but I think if you look again it's an illusion created by the glossy surface of the ? radome on the upper surface of the nose, and the tones of the B+W picture. I think there's just the one intake.

[George K Lee]

Isn't that the little Kratos thingamajig?

[gums]

Yeah, Parrot, it's an illusion.

Still a nifty-looking vehicle.

Gums sends...

[ORAC]

The more things change.....

http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/pd014a.jpg

[West Coast]

Ahhh, ORAC teed it up nicely for me.

Photos of SR-71 Blackbird with story of D-21 Drone attached, theChive : theCHIVE (http://thechive.com/2017/04/17/whats-on-top-of-my-sr-71-blackbird-22-hq-photos/)

[tartare]

Spot on ORAC... Sigh... Kelly, where are you when we need you?
Not hypersonic - but all done decades ago - and the little blighter made it most of the way across Lop Nor too - there's a great story in the Ben Rich book about an Uzbek shepherd finding some weird piece of RAM coated metal after one of the D-21s pissed off into China and didn't come back...

[TheWestCoast]

Yes - that Ben Rich book is terrific. I just read it for the first time over the holidays. Hard to put it down.

[unmanned_droid]

Hey Bubba! ORAC! Others....

Check out this vehicle that was featured this week in the AvWeek Daily Digest. Need time to recover from vehicle breakdown 300 miles from home and car still FUBAR. So I can't research further.

USAF Spending Big On Technology Transition Projects Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/usaf-spending-big-technology-transition-projects)

The lead picture is veeeeeery intereeeesting.

http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/imagecache/medium_img/uploads/2018/01/autonomous-aircraft-afrl.jpg

http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/imagecache/medium_img/uploads/2018/01/autonomous-aircraft-afrl.jpg

That sucker looks like it has the combined cycle propulsion that Lockheed touted a few weeks back. Looks like two intakes, and the conventional turbjet/turbofan lup higher than the other intake. Sucker also seems stealthy design.

Gums wonders.....

Hi Gums - that's a pretty average computer model/render - I wouldn't read much in to it.

George - I didn't think there were any pictures of the secret thing Kratos is making? They won't even say who the customer is....

[ORAC]

I have a copy of Sled Driver by Brian Shul in my bookcase. Haven’t opened in over 25 years. Sensible offers accepted....

[megan]

List price: A$49.60 ORAC, sound sensible? :E Have a first edition, I assume you know the market.

https://www.bookdepository.com/Sled-Driver-Brian-Shul/9780929823089

[ORAC]

1st edition - yes.......

[IFMU]

The other L-M Sikorsky spooky place apart from WPB be Elmira ( formerly Schweizer ) where HawkWorks is based

Indications Of Hawk Works In U.S. Stealth Helicopter | AWIN content from Aviation Week

Cheers

Non-military pilot here, sorry for the intrusion. I did work at the Hawkworks though, and have to say the stories that we were secretly making stealth Blackhawks brought us much mirth. One of my coworkers included this picture in an email with the subject "Google Earth spot explained-DO NOT DISTRIBUTE!!!!"

https://s17.postimg.org/nurehrx8v/image1.png

Of course, the conspiracy people will view this denial as proof something was going on there.

Gotta go. Black stealth helicopters circling my position.

[PDR1]

The more things change.....

http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/pd014a.jpg

Well yes - don't forget this photo which was snapped near groom lake a few weeks ago:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/1e/f9/bb1ef948a8846331efc116fd9a1070bc.jpg

The fighters look interesting, but I'd like to know more about that exec jet.

And then of course there's britain's Meteor PR19 (http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=22259.0) which knocked the spots off the U2 programme...

PDR

[ORAC]

Ah!!! The Angels.....

https://img.rcgroups.com/http://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/3/a/1/9/a19b6690-5156-012c-ae32-0050569439b1.jpg?h=v9dmimKdrA_1EyvApzCY9g

[chopper2004]

Any thoughts?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/singapore-lockheeds-carvalho-kiboshes-sr-72-idea-445664/

cheers

[air pig]

Any thoughts?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/singapore-lockheeds-carvalho-kiboshes-sr-72-idea-445664/

cheers

Remember the political quote 'never believe it until it's offically denied'

[treadigraph]

L-M says there is no SR-72

I thought for a sec you meant Leigh-Mallory!

[chopper2004]

Maybe the project is actually booming and for the sake of argument the supposed sub scale unmanned demonstrator is flying..

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/09/some-ufos-and-mysterious-booms-may-be-secret-sr-72/

cheers

[Less Hair]

It makes sense to have some high speed reconnaissance asset that is not as pedictable as satellites. Plus it is unlikely that they have retired the blackbird back then without having something better. Core job of the SR-71 was post SIOP-reconnaissance. Something existing today must be able to do it. Might be unmanned as well.

All the current hypersonic hype, showing models and stuff, is like the stealth hype back then: Too noisy. Do they just want to scare russia into buying super expensive new radars and air defence all along their border again? Like when the cold war ended and the soviet union went bankrupt over it's defense expenditures? Russia today tries to "scare" back with their torpedo it seems.

[SASless]

thought for a sec you meant Leigh-Mallory!

For sure whatever it is....it ain't British!