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banditb6
30th Oct 2013, 18:34
Now the nights are drawing in I am wanting to do my night rating, I am unable to find out if this is indeed a rating that will be added to my licence or a signature in my logbook?

If I do need to apply for it onto my licence, after the 5 hours required will I then be able to Solo or will I need to wait for my licence to be returned?

Thanks

S-Works
30th Oct 2013, 18:38
Its a rating and thus a licence entry. You can't exercise the privileges until its in your hand.

banditb6
30th Oct 2013, 18:40
That's what I was worried about, will have to get the rating done ASAP so I can actually use the thing! Thanks

Pace
30th Oct 2013, 18:59
Bandit

Crazy world this flying game! Apart from the risks of engine failure at night or even the fact that any failure is far worse at night I fail to understand why the powers that be issue a night rating which is not part of a solid instrument flying capability.

The chances of becoming disorientated at night or even worse entering cloud are significant with no real ability to deal with it! but that is the crazy way our regulations often based from decades ago still are there today someone please explain for I fail to understand?

Pace

englishal
30th Oct 2013, 19:32
Multi engine turbine pilots are chicken when it comes to flying SEPs across water or at night :}

But if you ignore the perceived risks, flying at night is great. I did one recently in California around mountains and it was an amazing flight. Admittedly I was IFR at the time and shot the GPS approach but the stars were out, and it was very smooth and relaxing. (It was a straight in approach but only circling minima were listed which I didn't understand why until I turned on the runway lights...there was not control tower here).

Anyway my view on night flying is that it is actually no different to day flying, other than it is dark. Landings are no different really. If you fly on VFR nights with the stars out then there is not really much chance of getting into the cloud, and if the moon is out then you can see quite a lot.

Just don't think about the engine stopping....then I guess it will be down to luck how your landing is.

BEagle
30th Oct 2013, 20:24
Multi engine turbine pilots are chicken when it comes to flying SEPs across water or at night.

Presumably they aren't too keen either on flying in day IMC even to IMCr limits? If the engine gives up on an ILS with a 450' DH, the chances of a successful forced landing are pretty slim.....:hmm:

Just suck it up, girls ;)

Katamarino
30th Oct 2013, 20:55
Although you may think that it's the training and practice in the aircraft that gives you the proficiency to fly at night, the CAA knows better. It's actually the possession of a poorly printed piece of paper that ensures safety, and this is why you can't fly until they print it out and send it to you.

Of course, in the USA they issue a temporary licence there in the spot after you pass a flight test, but in Europe this would just be terribly dangerous :rolleyes:

OhNoCB
30th Oct 2013, 22:48
Perhaps interestingly, on inquiring with the CAA a couple of months ago, I was told that yes, a night rating is indeed a rating, but no, it should not appear as a rating on your licence. It is inferred by "night: nil" under restrictions.

LAI
30th Oct 2013, 23:20
That's interesting CB. My new EASA licence has "Night" listed on the Ratings Held page. On the JAR one ISTR that it wasn't mentioned at all, as having a Night Rating (or Qualification then) was a prerequisite of either the CPL or IR (Can't remember which).

I sometimes think that certain sections of the CAA must have a set of rotating answers to various questions, which change depending on the day of the week you happen to call! :}

Silvaire1
31st Oct 2013, 03:48
Of course, in the USA they issue a temporary licence there in the spot after you pass a flight test, but in Europe this would just be terribly dangerous

And the first time they do that, for your Private Certificate, it includes night flying for the rest of your life. Shocking :) ;)

BabyBear
31st Oct 2013, 08:13
Although you may think that it's the training and practice in the aircraft that gives you the proficiency to fly at night, the CAA knows better. It's actually the possession of a poorly printed piece of paper that ensures safety, and this is why you can't fly until they print it out and send it to you.

My take on this has always been that the CAA restrict flying, not to do with a piece of paper, but to ensure the application is succesful. IE the applicant is entitled to the licence and therefore to fly.

BB

S-Works
31st Oct 2013, 09:05
Its nothing to do with whether the piece of paper makes you safe or not, it is just down to the way that European law is rather archaically written. To change it would involve huge effort and expense which is a bit pointless just to save you waiting for a bit of paper to be sent out.

Not sure what the fuss is about really. Its going to get dark every day right until the point when the sun goes out permanently so it's not like you have a dwindling opportunity.....

OhNoCB
31st Oct 2013, 12:51
That's interesting CB. My new EASA licence has "Night" listed on the Ratings Held page. On the JAR one ISTR that it wasn't mentioned at all, as having a Night Rating (or Qualification then) was a prerequisite of either the CPL or IR (Can't remember which).

I thought it was a bit strange too. My previous licence was a JAR PPL which displayed it as the inclusion of the text: "The privileges of this licence may be exercised at night".

Naturally I thought since it was now a rating it would be under ratings, but when I queried it on the phone, the lady put me on hold and went to check with a "Technical Support Officer" who confirmed that it should be under "Restrictions .... Night: Nil".

I think it depends on who does your licence however, as my IMC rating is down as "IRR(A)" which is exactly the same as what a colleague of mine has that entitles him to renew instrument ratings!

S-Works
31st Oct 2013, 13:51
My night rating appears in section XII as a night rating.

As it does not require renewal or revalidation it does not appear in the certificate of revalidation pages.

I think it depends on who does your licence however, as my IMC rating is down as "IRR(A)" which is exactly the same as what a colleague of mine has that entitles him to renew instrument ratings!

No it's not. That's an IRRE....

Your IMC should be entered as IR(Restricted)

englishal
31st Oct 2013, 14:53
Mines an IRR(A)

F4TCT
31st Oct 2013, 20:40
You mention that the night needs no revalidation.....

I thought you had to do atleast 3 take offs and landings each 90 days before you could carry passangers.

I suppose I've answered my own question - the issue of passengers.

Is anything different under easa?

Must send off my licence to be changed. Is there anything bar the 1104 form thing that's needs to be done? What about the RT cert?

Dan

Dave Wilson
31st Oct 2013, 21:02
I think (I'm probably wrong, usually am) that it's three take offs and landings one of which has to be at night in the last 90 days for the passenger rule.

Edit: that's for the carrying of passengers of night.

As an aside, does anyone take passengers flying at night in SEP's? It's something I don't do as I feel uncomfortable with it. I don't mind flying with another pilot(s) as they know the increased risk.

BEagle
31st Oct 2013, 21:56
As an aside, does anyone take passengers flying at night in SEPs? It's something I don't do as I feel uncomfortable with it.

Why ever not? Do you fly day IMC approaches with passengers?

Dave Wilson
31st Oct 2013, 22:51
Yes, but then if the fan stops I feel, however stupidly, that I may stand a chance of putting it down with a greater chance of survival than if the same happened at night.

You know as well as I do that a fan stop at night is an 'aim at the dark bits' scenario.

I take your point which is a valid one. I guess it's about perceived risk. I would hope that I would have the airmanship not to put a passenger into a situation where I would need to be doing an IMC approach down to minima anyway. With another pilot I wouldn't think twice, however it's unfair to subject a non pilot to the same risk. Just IMO.

I sometimes take my eight year old grandson flying. The weather has to be perfect or as near as for me to do so.

OhNoCB
31st Oct 2013, 23:13
No it's not. That's an IRRE....

Your IMC should be entered as IR(Restricted)

I may have not been clear, I appreciate it would be an IRRE but my point here is that he does not have IRRE, but has IRR(A) which the CAA assured him was correct in EASA speak for IRRE. He also has IR(R) for an IMC rating.

I on the other hand do not hold any IRRE privileges, but have an IMC rating and the corresponding entry on my licence is "IRR(A)".

Dave Wilson
31st Oct 2013, 23:33
Must be a misstype, mine is 'IR(R)'. Wouldn't worry about it, you're not going to fly into the ground in IMC because of a misstype on your license are you.

OhNoCB
31st Oct 2013, 23:41
I would most certainly like to hope not!

Merely pointing out some inconsistency in something which really ought to be (especially considering the cost) consistent.

Dave Wilson
31st Oct 2013, 23:59
We are talking CAA here. Accurate typing is an extra fee...

S-Works
1st Nov 2013, 08:23
I may have not been clear, I appreciate it would be an IRRE but my point here is that he does not have IRRE, but has IRR(A) which the CAA assured him was correct in EASA speak for IRRE. He also has IR(R) for an IMC rating.

I on the other hand do not hold any IRRE privileges, but have an IMC rating and the corresponding entry on my licence is "IRR(A)".

According to the CAA the entry for the IMCr is now IR(restricted). On my licence it is entered this way and my IR is entered as IR(A).

No examiner ratings are entered on the licence we have them on a separate page and the is no IRR(A) it is a CRE with IR revalidation privileges listed in what we can do. I have never seen a standalone IR revalidation rating.

The CAA make made a right dogs dinner of entering ratings into licences and its making a nightmare of a job for us as examiners as they come around for renewal and revalidation to know what to put on the forms. It has led to a lot of phone called recently.

Whopity
1st Nov 2013, 11:19
Its fair to say the paperwork now takes longer than the test it is recording;
and nobody understands it from the originator to the recipient!

englishal
1st Nov 2013, 11:25
From the CAA Standards doc:

IRR: Instrument Rating Revalidation privileges

So by virtue of my FAA IR I now have an IRR(A)....Nice, I guess I don't need to do the CBM IR after all. Thank you CAA ! ;)

S-Works
1st Nov 2013, 11:34
Nice try...... Having Instrument rating revalidation privileges is embedded within another examiner rating, it is not a licence rating.

The IRR(A) is not the first case I have seen of a lack of continuity.

I have seen in the last couple of weeks:

For IMCr
IRR(A)
IR(Restricted)

For IR(A)

IR(A)
Instrument
IR-SP-nonHPCA
IR SE
IR SP ME Class

In my licence my IR(A) appears in Section XII as Instrument. In the Certificate of revalidation page it appeared originally as IR SP non HPCA and then became IR SP ME Class as well as the type rating specific entries.

The IMCr now appears as IR (Restricted) in both sections.

There are other anomalies as well on things like my FI(A), CRI SE/ME and IRI(A) that don't match other company pilots.

On speaking to the CAA the answer is 'don't worry' its all correct!!!

Mind you its still does not get over the stupidity of having the entire rear of lthe licence with 'Intentionally Blank' on it and having to use separate revalidation pages for my ratings!!

cockney steve
1st Nov 2013, 11:50
@Dave Wilson, # 17 

Dave, What makes you think all us non-pilots are as thick as pig5h1t and incapable of understanding the nuances and increased risks of IFR and Night flight?

sorry, mate, it's only a bit of paper you earned jumping through a few hoops... it doesn't confer common-sense, intelligence or god-like insight.

certain people I'd happily fly in a SEP at night/IFR with....others, i'd decline a trip in perfect conditions......Know your man (or woman!) :p

Cusco
1st Nov 2013, 12:36
I have both an IR (Single engine only) and a IMCr

On my EASA licence these are described as IR-SP-SE (=IR) and IRR(A) (=IMCr).

On my retained UK Licence these are described as IR-SP-SE and IMC respectively.

Good enough for me.

Cusco

Dave Wilson
1st Nov 2013, 16:04
Dave, What makes you think all us non-pilots are as thick as pig5h1t and incapable of understanding the nuances and increased risks of IFR and Night flight?

I never said you were! I was a non pilot once, I can't remember being any dumber than I am now... The point is Steve I'm responsible for you both legally and morally if you fly with me. I wouldn't feel happy taking a passenger up at night. Another pilot is fine, if anything happens to me (I'm not in the first flush of youth) they can get back on the deck safely. Others may disagree but that's the way it is with me. The buck stops with the aircraft commander, it's my decision and one that I'm sticking with. Other aircraft commanders can do exactly as they please.