Wartime ELG?

[ShotOne]

How long would the runway have to have been in order to be classified as an ELG during WWII?

[MG]

From Wikipedia's entry for RAF Manston:
Along with RAF Carnaby and RAF Woodbridge, Manston was developed as a South coast emergency landing ground for bomber crews. These airfields were intended for use by returning bombers suffering from low-fuel and/or suspected damage to their pneumatic (wheel Brake) and/or hydraulic (Control surface) systems. All three airfields were equipped with a single runway, 9,000*ft (2,700 m) long and 750*ft (230 m) wide. There was a further clear area of 1,500*ft (460 m) at each end of the runway. At each of the three airfields, the runway was divided into three 250*ft (76 m) lanes. The northern and central lanes were allocated by flying control, while the southern lane was the emergency lane on which any aircraft could land without first making contact with the airfield.

[NutLoose]

Wasn't it the width that was the major factor allowing other aircraft to be able to land even with a wheels up aircraft on the runway?

[MPN11]

True, NutLoose ... It was the width that mattered, not the length. Which makes a change.

And once the crew were out, and any ordnance secured, the bulldozers would make even more space for the next crew(s).

Sadly I have never discovered a reference for the ELGs in meaningful detail.

[ShotOne]

The location I'm interested in is in Scotland and is, I suspect very much smaller than your description. Second question; does being designated as an ELG imply any lighting available?

[papajuliet]

The only airfields designed as ELG's in the full sense were Manston [ an established airfield which was developed] ,Woodbridge and Carnaby [ both specially built for the purpose]
You're not thinking of an SLG by any chance? More info. on the site in question would help.

[longer ron]

It would be worth asking on The Airfield Information Exchange website (AIX)...if you have a specific location in mind...they will probably know of it.
Some ELG's were very small...
On the south coast we had a very small one near wittering and RAF Friston was a designated ELG...it was a small grass airfield (RAF Bodkin Hazel in 'piece of cake' )

[longer ron]

As a small aside - here is a short extract from the RAF Friston ORB

22nd September 1944.
Between the hours of 18.13 and 19.07, when practically every other drome was closed and our own cloud base was no more than 400 feet at the best, we homed and successfully landed twenty-one Mustangs, three Bostons, two Thunderbolts, ten Mitchells, in addition to our own Squadron in the middle of them.

Must have been pretty well packed :) it was a small grass airfield

[MPN11]

Applause to the Flying Control guys on that occasion!!

[longer ron]

Indeed especially when you look at the location !!
On the top of the seven sisters just east of cuckmere haven...

The L.H longer rwy was the designated emergency strip,the short strip was for the based fighters !
Nice photo here...



Friston (http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/showthread.php?4610-Friston)

[NutLoose]

I wonder if they all had FIDO?
If you do not know it was a fog dispersion system that consisted of trenches either side of the runway filled with burning petrol to clear the fog

[longer ron]

This is the only list I have seen of FIDO stations - from AIX

RAF Blackbushe/Hartford Bridge
RAF Bradwell Bay
RAF Carnaby
RAF Downham Market
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Foulsham
RAF Graveley
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Manston
RAF Melbourne
RAF Metheringham
RAF St Eval
RAF Sturgate
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Woodbridge

[spekesoftly]

..... consisted of trenches either side of the runway filled with burning petrol to clear the fog .....

Not trenches but pipelines along which fuel was pumped to burners set at intervals.

The FIDO installations at Manston and Blackbushe were still operational in the early 1950s.

[NutLoose]

Thanks Guys

[ShotOne]

Very unlikely fido involved, we're talking a grass strip in Lanarkshire

[Union Jack]

Very unlikely fido involved, we're talking a grass strip in Lanarkshire

If it had existed in 1941, it might have helped Rudolf Hess no end!:D

Jack

[gr4techie]

It's interesting going onto Google Maps and looking at the satellite photos of Carnaby, Woodbridge and Manston.

At Carnaby there's an entire industrial estate on the runway. Parked cars give an amazing sense of scale.

At Woodbridge and Manston, you can see the active runways are only one lane, with older concrete to the ether side. The width of the concrete makes the modern actives look tiny. The active at Manston looks like its 1/4 of the width of the ELG.
At Manston there are some Cessna light aircraft parked up and a airliner on the threshold of 10 that give a sense of scale.

[longer ron]

it might have helped Rudolf Hess no end

I am sure that comment will have made the op smile - as it is possibly who he was researching :)

[longer ron]

Another quick look at the Friston ORB this morning...
This must surely be one of the most bizarre entries in any RAF ORB...


7th July 1942.
At 07.55 hours a tank which had arrived on the aerodrome to demonstrate a new method of exploding a minefield was being serviced near the cliff edge when it got out of control and crashed 130 feet over the cliff into the sea below. The occupant of the tank, Signalman GARDNER, 2372889, of the ROYAL TANK CORPS, sustained multiple injuries despite gallant rescue work and a blood transfusion in the Medical Crash Room on the Aerodrome prior to removal to the local hospital. In the afternoon, both Squadrons departed having been suddenly ordered to return to their home bases in the morning. This totally unexpected move caused great disappointment and left the Station strangely quiet.



From CWGC -probably thought he had a cushy posting near his home

GARDNER, AYLWYN GEOFFREY
Initials: A G
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Signalman
Regiment/Service: Royal Corps of Signals
Unit Text: 11th Armd. Div. Sigs.
Age: 34
Date of Death: 07/07/1942
Service No: 2372899

[Pontius Navigator]

According to my book there were no military airfields in Lanarkshire in 1939-45. Also, as Lanarkshire is an inland county it is not an ideal place for an ELG.

[HighTow]

Small factoid.

There's two types of ELG depending on what time of the second world war your looking at.

Around 1940 the RAF bought a lot of land that would be useful as "scatter fields" that aircraft could bolt to in case of German invasion and their aerodromes were overrun. These were often tiny patches of grass just big enough for fighters with no facilities at all.

Easiest way to imagine it is the tented temporary aerodrome at the start of the Battle of Britain film.

These were marked on certain Air Ministry maps as "ELG" and some grass aerodromes are specifically named as Emergency Landing Grounds as a secondary use.

Couple of examples of ELGs as per the above I know about were at Temple Guiting and Turkdene in Gloucestershire and just to the west of the Burford Grammar school in Oxfordshire. RAF Northleach was designated as a ELG prior to them sorting the plumbing out so that Flying Training Command could use it proper.

Most of these scatter fields/ELGs were removed from maps by 1944 as the threat of invasion had passed.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

I worked with Elvington as Relief Landing Ground during a tour at Linton.

Elvers was always referred to in the same category as Manston and Carnaby - 9000ft and double width...

..and in the middle of 'bomber country'

wet

[chevvron]

I think you'l find Elvington's 'big' runway was a post-war SAC development ie 10,000ft x 150 ft. Don't think SAC (like Bruntingthorpe) ever used it though.

[Wander00]

I recall being diverted into Manston AGAIN in a T 17 in late 60s. Rest of UK out in fog and just about every type of military and civil aircraft parked around the place and ISTR at the edge of the extremely wide runway, although I also seem to recall that the actual runway edges were marked and lit a more normal width apart. The fuel bowser came round and you had a limited amount od fuel, and refuel yourselves.

[Pontius Navigator]

Elvington during the war had 3 runways, all 50 yds wide, 20 at 1400, 26 at 2000 and 14 at 1400.

Bruntingthorpe was similar with 1x2000, and 2x1400.

Post-war SAC use was probably not as an operating base but a recovery base.

Remember that SAC had 1600 B47, several hundred B52 and several hundred KC97/135s. They all needed somewhere to land :)

Spilsby was one such airfield. OS mapping, once such restrictions were lifted, showed huge expanses of concrete aprons. The intention was simply to land on, taxi to the furthest available space and stop.

East Kirkby, was also available as an emergency landing ground until 1970. In 1964 its runway was resurfaced, painted, and line with fuelled oil-fired glims. Halfpenny Green was another 1960s ELG.

[longer ron]

Wartime ELG?
How long would the runway have to have been in order to be classified as an ELG during WWII?

Sorry we have all digressed a little - the short answer is 'not much'.

As an earlier poster said - depends on which sort of ELG you mean !!
The ELG's/ RLG's for flying training etc were usually a field or two with a couple of hedges removed.
I suspect the OP is referring to Dungavel House airfield !
Looking at the area on google street view - it would be tight for a 110 for a night landing especially for an amateur pilot,there would be no approach lights and the only rwy lighting available would be gooseneck flares.
And then you would have had to hide the a/c for a day or two !

Some day maybe some of the info will be released but I doubt I will still be around then !

rgds LR

[RequestPidgeons]

There are some good Google Earth overlays avaiable on line that list all of the ELGs, etc

Go here and make your selection.

https://www.google.co.nz/#q=RAF+Bases+kmz

Then wipe the tear from your eye......

[teeteringhead]

IIRC Elvington was nominated as an emergency div for Concorde trials....

[chevvron]

Just looked at Spilsby on satellite photos; doesn't look to be a 10,000 footer but no way of measuring! Definitely extended post-war though and it crossed a public road at the western end.

[HighTow]

Searching Goolgle for "scatter field" RAF turns up a lot of references to the early ELGs. Some of them were upgraded and became full blown aerodromes which is why it's often hard to find reference to them in their former use.

[NutLoose]

IIRC Elvington was nominated as an emergency div for Concorde trials....


And the Space Shuttle!!!

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Thank you Chev and PN for Elvers background - never believe what you're told. ...I thought I was part of WW2 history climbing those bloody steps to be duty pilot, and now I discover it's a hip replacement scheme run by the Yanks.

wets

[chevvron]

Yes it had (has?) the USAF 'standard' latticework control tower. I've only seen one other in the UK and that was Chelveston (Northants) which as far as I'm aware, also had a 10,000ft runway, although some sources (Airfields of the Eighth) say it was longer.