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fireflybob
29th Oct 2013, 14:36
I seem to recall there was a proposal to allow VFR at night in the UK which was mooted last year to bring us into line with much of Europe.

Can anyone please tell me what the current situation is in this respect?

Thanks for any assistance.

LAI
29th Oct 2013, 16:26
Bob,

It has already happened... See here: IN-2012/145: Introduction of Visual Flight Rules (VFR) at Night in the UK | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=5162)

Effectively, my understanding is that they had to make the change to comply with the EASA Aircrew Regulation (which states that, in order to fly IFR, one must have an instrument qualification). Therefore, the CAA have issued an exemption to the current ANO in order to be able to fly VFR at night (for those who don't hold an IMC/IR etc.). That's my understanding anyway - all in the IN.

fireflybob
29th Oct 2013, 16:52
LAI, thanks for that!

tmmorris
19th Mar 2014, 09:05
Can I just check, then, in response to a query from one of my (school) pupils who is doing a PPL and regards me as the font of all knowledge:

Is it now the case that holders of a UK issued EASA PPL without IR or IR(R) are NOT allowed to fly IFR in VMC, OCAS?

When I did my PPL they were, and now I have an IR(R) I've not worried about the distinction, but clearly this is an important one for a new vanilla PPL.

Whopity
19th Mar 2014, 09:38
Is it now the case that holders of a UK issued EASA PPL without IR or IR(R) are NOT allowed to fly IFR in VMC, OCAS?Not only is that correct, it has been the case since 1999 when the JAA licence was introduced! The one exception was that JAR-FCL included a provision to fly IFR at night in VMC when it was required nationally. The old UK National PPL did not, and still does not prohibit IFR flight in VMC within the licence privileges.

Mach Jump
20th Mar 2014, 19:45
[QUOTE]...holders of a UK issued EASA PPL without IR or IR(R) are NOT allowed to fly IFR in VMC, OCAS[QUOTE]

It seems inconceivable that pilots flying in VMC, outside controlled airspace who choose to subject themselves to a more stringent set of rules than are requoired of them are acting illegally.

There must have been some kind of cockup here when someone wrote 'IFR' when they really meant 'IMC', or '...in circumstances where IFR flight is required'


MJ:ok:

Level Attitude
21st Mar 2014, 00:35
Not only is that correct, it has been the case since 1999 when the JAA licence was introduced!Don't think that is correct at all. CAA always referred to UK Licences,
meaning both UK National PPLs and UK issued JAR-FCL PPLs.
Same way that all UK issued Licences (including JAR) without any additional
ratings only gave privileges to fly in visibility greater than 3km - rather
than the JAR minimum of 1.5km.
Anyhow that is now all in the past.

It seems inconceivable that pilots flying in VMC, outside controlled airspace who choose to subject themselves to a more stringent set of rules than are requoired of them are acting illegaly.

There must have been some kind of cockup hereActually it probably makes more sense from a rulemaking point of view:

"Here is a Licence that gives you the privilege to fly under VFR"

as compared to

"Here is a Licence that gives you the privilege to fly under VFR or IFR
dependant on the weather conditions and Class of Airspace"

mad_jock
21st Mar 2014, 06:59
I suspect it nothing to do with vanilla PPL's to be honest.

Its in there to shut a loophole for people building IFR time for single crew ops and IRI ratings.

Mach Jump
21st Mar 2014, 07:20
Its in there to shut a loophole for people building IFR time for single crew ops and IRI ratings.

So it's not illegal to fly in accordance with IFR OCAS, You just can't claim the IFR time in your logbook.

We're making a distinction between flying 'under IFR' and flying 'in acordance with IFR'.

MJ:ok:

mad_jock
21st Mar 2014, 07:40
What VFR rule are you contravening flying an IFR flight profile in class G?

Whopity
21st Mar 2014, 08:35
Don't think that is correct at all. CAA always referred to UK Licences,
The UK ANO specified the privileges of UK and JAA licence seperately in Schedule 8 then 7. The ANO stated that holders of a JAA licence shall comply with the provisions of JAR-FCL 1.175 making that small part of JAR-FCL one with legal status:
JAR–FCL 1.175 Circumstances in which
an IR(A) is required
(a) The holder of a pilot licence (A) shall
not act in any capacity as a pilot of an aeroplane
under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), except as a
pilot undergoing skill testing or dual training,
unless the holder has an instrument rating
(IR(A)) appropriate to the category of aircraft
issued in accordance with JAR–FCL.

(b) In JAA Member States where national
legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR
under specified circumstances (e.g. at night),
the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR,
provided that pilot holds a qualification
appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and
flight conditions in which the flight is conducted.
National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in
accordance with IFR other than in VMC without
being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be
restricted to use of the airspace of the State of
licence issue only.
That came into force in 1999. Whilst its now long under the bridge, it appears to have been missed by many!

"Here is a Licence that gives you the privilege to fly under VFR or IFR
dependant on the weather conditions and Class of Airspace"
IFR has nothing to do with weather!

mad_jock
21st Mar 2014, 08:58
yep and it was used by some to log IFR hours to get past experience requirements.

Whopity
21st Mar 2014, 09:50
We're making a distinction between flying 'under IFR' and flying 'in acordance with IFR'.Its only a set of rules so what difference does "under" or "in accordance with" make. If its not permitted, then its not permitted. You might coincidentally be flying under a set of conditions that exactly matches the rules but you cannot admit to it!

Level Attitude
21st Mar 2014, 19:22
IFR has nothing to do with weather!Whopity, Not so given the context of the discussion.
There must have been some kind of cockup here when someone wrote 'IFR' when they really meant 'IMC', or '...in circumstances where IFR flight is required'A VFR only privilege means only VFR and, by definition, only VMC

A VMC only privilege means VFR or IFR, but for IFR to be allowed depends
totally on the weather.

mad_jock
22nd Mar 2014, 01:27
VMC or IMC is wx conditions

IFR and VFR are flight rules.

If the pilot decides to claim certain rules when they are not compliant with the rule book that's up to the authority to prove that they are operating illegally.

The again if your flying without taking a service in class G nobody has clue what you are doing .

Capot
22nd Mar 2014, 10:13
My now non-current UK PPL has a Night Rating in it, which allows/ed me to fly at night under VFR.

Did something change? I need to catch up.

Genghis the Engineer
22nd Mar 2014, 10:38
VMC or IMC is wx conditions

IFR and VFR are flight rules.

If the pilot decides to claim certain rules when they are not compliant with the rule book that's up to the authority to prove that they are operating illegally.

The again if your flying without taking a service in class G nobody has clue what you are doing .

The permit on my microlight says that I may not fly IFR. This has always seemed utter absurd to me when this requires no special skill or equipment. An IMC prohibition makes far more sense and of course is what really happens.

G

Level Attitude
22nd Mar 2014, 12:51
Did something change? I need to catch up.YES.
Prior to July(?) 2013 flight at night in the UK was mandatory IFR.
As, without an instrument qualification of some sort, EASA Licences only
allow VFR flight then, if the UK rules had not changed, a lot of pilots
would not have been able to exercise their Night Rating privileges.

My now non-current UK PPL has a Night Rating in it, which allows/ed me to fly at night under VFR.NO, it didn't.
Prior to July last year night flight in the UK was mandatory IFR.

A UK PPL allowed flight by VFR, or flight by IFR provided IFR was not mandatory.
The Night Rating added the privilege to fly IFR at night outside of
controlled airspace provided VMC (plus the min 3km Viz Licence restriction) was
maintained (SVFR being required to transit Class D CTZs for example).

Now, a UK PPL with Night Rating will allow VFR flight at night; but only
because the UK rules have changed to allow night flying to be conducted VFR.

mad_jock
22nd Mar 2014, 13:40
but realistically G if you compare VFR rules and IFR rules its only the IMC bit you can't do.

Instrument approaches are perfectly legal under VFR rules.

The reason why its defined as VFR only is to stop you using class A.

pipertommy
16th Aug 2018, 22:24
Hi, having not flown at night for a while can I clarify when operating VFR night flight within a class D CTZ, will it still be classed as Svfr for the clearance ? And VFR when outside controlled airspace?? Thanks.

Whopity
17th Aug 2018, 08:12
when operating VFR night flight within a class D CTZ, will it still be classed as Svfr for the clearance ?
No, since this thread began there has been a fundamental change to the definition of SVFR.
“Special VFR flight” means a flight conducted in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules cleared by an air traffic control unit to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions below Visual Meteorological Conditions;

pipertommy
18th Aug 2018, 14:51
OK thanks, makes sense. So booking out is just vfr..... Cleared vfr departure.