An insult to all

[ArthurR]

Remembrance Day: vicar refuses to wear poppy because it 'advocates war' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10409297/Remembrance-Day-vicar-refuses-to-wear-poppy-because-it-advocates-war.html)

Not only an insult to all that have died in wars, but an insult to the country as a whole.

[Laarbruch72]

It's not an insult, it's his right.

[melmothtw]

It's not an insult, it's his right.


Quite right.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

It's his right as a woman!

You haven't got a womb! Wheres the foetus gonna gestate?!

[rugmuncher]

Or HERS as the case is.

It is about Remembrance though, not the advocating war!

:ugh:

[melmothtw]

She's not the only one...BBC NEWS | UK | TV's Snow rejects 'poppy fascism' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6134906.stm)

And that's the problem - for some the poppy is less about rememberance and more about social conformity.

[Agaricus bisporus]

That's about as intellectually sound as banning the Bible because it advocates crucifiction.

Some vicar! :ugh:

[superq7]

Self righteous so and so.

[gr4techie]

I'm not saying he or she is right. I'm taking the neutral ground. But maybe he's one of those that thinks it glorifies war and symbolises 16.5 million deaths as acceptable?

[melmothtw]

That's about as intellectually sound as banning the Bible because it
advocates crucifiction.

Some vicar! :ugh:


She's not talking about banning the poppy, she is just saying that she would rather not wear one.

And how exactly does the bible 'advocate' crucifixion anyhow?

[goudie]

I wear my poppy with pride but it does seem to have become a 'must have' fashion statement by TV presenters and the like, as Jon Snow has highlighted.
Saw plenty of shoppers ignoring the two elderly ex-servicemen, selling poppies outside my local supermarket

[Motleycallsign]

Lighten up chaps - she may decide at the last minute to wear one; after all she is of American stock and they arrived late for both main events that 11/11 honours (yes I know it is remembrance for all those that gave the ultimate sacrifice for their country, but WW's 1 & 2 are still uppermost in most people's mind at this time of year).

[Bushfiva]

The last time I was ever on TV around this time, there was a bucket of "expensive" poppies sitting there for those who had forgotten, or who chose not to wear them. So full marks to Mr Snow for choosing not to wear anyone's symbol du jour in public.

[Pontius Navigator]

The vicar where I last commemorated the wars was a Texan. He wore a poppy but the service did not sit happily with him.

I also attended a commemoration service in Guernsey last month. Our regular clergyman was away that week and a different, older, vicar took the service. Present were a number of survivors from the wartime action but without exception the hymns were all dirges with none of the old ones that would be known to irregular church goers. Most notable omission was 'For those in peril . . . '

Some times the clergy ought tend to their flock and not push their own peripheral beliefs.

[teeteringhead]

As Voltaire probably didn't say:

I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it.

...or as Heinrich Heine nearly said:

Dieu lui pardonnera - c'est Son metier

[Dash8driver1312]

I was under the impression that it symbolises life returning, as the poppies still grow in Flanders (personally saw them earlier this year next to Waterloo before visiting Ypres and Tyne Cot), but also as a "niemals vergessen" so we never let ourselves rush blindly in to the kind of mass slaughter that happened before.

I was incredibly moved last year outside Horse Guards seeing a few children marching with veterans, sadly wearing medals on their right breast for their missing fathers.

But...if folks want to misinterpret the symbology...it is their right. Let's not forget that the Spirit if Saint Louis had a swastika painted inside its prop spinner!

[MPN11]

I respect the right of "The Reverend PJ" not to wear a Poppy. I do not respect her complete misunderstanding of the situation, or what Poppy represents ... and as she now lives in the UK she ought to get her act sorted out.

Last month we delivered a few Poppies to our friends in the USA. They understood what it is about. Indeed, the US has picked up on the scheme (I'll post a pic later when I'm not on the iPad - please excuse the Bear, he works for a military charity in UK).

We WILL remember them ... For what they gave for us, who did not have to pay that price.

Glorify war? How the <insert expletive here> do you do that? Stupid woman.

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1020397.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1020397.jpg.html)

[500N]

MPN

Love the bear :ok:

Combat vet as well, even better.

[MPN11]

Yup. Wounded in action too!

Story and Videos here >>> Cpl Horsa ? Afghanistan 2008 | Holidays 4 Heroes (http://www.holidays4heroes.org/2008/12/16/cpl-horsa-afghanistan-2008-2/)

... and the aftermath (http://www.holidays4heroes.org/2008/12/31/cpl-horsa-post-deployment-rnr-and-hotspur-mkii-2/) :cool:

[goudie]

Saw the Queen and Camilla on TV this afternoon, visiting some children, neither of them were wearing a poppy but all the TV presenters were!

[muppetofthenorth]

Last month we delivered a few Poppies to our friends in the USA. They understood what it is about. Indeed, the US has picked up on the scheme

It was their idea in the first place!

I was under the impression that it symbolises life returning, as the poppies still grow in Flanders...But...if folks want to misinterpret the symbology...it is their right

To be fair, it is open to misinterpretation. The poem that was the catalyst behind the poppy being taken up as a symbol does seem to advocate carrying on the fight
"Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high."

While I personally don't believe that if you reference part of something you necessarily have to pay attention to all of it, their point is not completely without merit.

[MG]

There is definitely an expectation that people will wear their poppies. I, therefore respect Jon Snow to choose to fight against that and not to wear one. However, as it has been said, I would want to talk with the reverend and try to convince her into what the poppy symbolises. If she still chooses not to wear a poppy, well that's her choice, but I would then find it incongruous with her conducting a Remembrance Service as the two are, in my mind, intrisically linked.

[Hangarshuffle]

I always thought the poppy advocates the remembrance of the military dead from the 14-18 war, and is a symbol of acknowledgement that the people who died are remembered. I always candidly read it/interpreted it from many people that it was (don't be offended please) also an acknowledgement of the waste of that war - the waste of life - in the Great War. Worn as a silent plea for no more war, please?

A heart-breaking thing I once saw, an elderly or middle aged lady wearing a poppy with a black and white small photo attached to it on her coat of a young British serviceman from WW2 (looking at the photo in my minds eye). This was in 1979. I was a kid and have often wondered who he was, who she was? What could the vicar say to that, about that?

Later on of course we have had more and more war and conflict involving our country.
Some of it highly controversially, and politically questionable. And generally hated. Possibly increasingly deemed unnecessary.

My present reading of it is a great many in our nation are of the opinion " well you volunteered mate, and its your hard luck/problem you and them got injured and or killed - sympathy zilch and hostility to your fighting effort-quite high actually because I hate the political aspect of that conflict and your part in it-and I don't want to know about it any further". Its true, many people feel and think that.

Agree with Snow up to a point - think he's a good bloke, read his book understand his stance, if I don't entirely agree with him on this. He does wear a poppy, on the 11th if it coincides with a workday for him on the TV.

Perhaps people are wearing poppies far, far too early IMHO, but that tallies in with the RBL campaign for money for the very worthy - that's a business campaign they run as well and a slick one, for hard cash. They need to place the poppy like an advert to generate a return-everyone understands this.
But seeing all manner of TV celebs wearing the poppy, no made to wear the poppy by young staffers who pin them on for them 20 seconds before green light - I find this......difficult.

Far too long a post and its making me melancholy again as this always does.
RIP all our fallen.

[binzer]

read the article , she says she's happy to wear a white poppy, still remembering those who gave their lives, but not a great fan of wars

[MG]

not a great fan of wars
Who is?!!!

[Tankertrashnav]

100% behind John Snow in this matter, even though I disagree with many of his political opinions. "Poppy fascism" is about right.

In recent years there has been an unseemly rush to be the first to wear a poppy. I certainly havent bought one yet, but no doubt I'll have one in time for 10th November when I'll be attending a remembrance service.

The vicar of course has got it all wrong, and needs to be educated about the fact that the poppy is for remembrance, not the glorification of war. In any case, in my experience there's no pacifist like one who's fought in a war and seen first hand what a bloody waste it all is.

IMOH white poppies are insulting, and their wearers seek to occupy a spurious moral high ground, implying as they do that those of us who wear red poppies are somehow in favour of wars!

[Fitter2]

I have never understood this fetish for wearing poppies for as long before the 11th as Christmas trees appear in the shops before the 25th Dec.

Mine is worn from the Monday before the 11th (and kept until Remembrance Sunday if later), and the medals (and squadron tie) get their annual airing on Remembrance Sunday too. Not for show, but out of respect for those we will remember.

[MPN11]

I've been wearing one here since Sunday, when our local Field of Remembrance was opened and blessed by The Dean, and the first cross was planted by the Lt Governor. I guess Jersey is bit focussed, being both insular (in every sense) and having been occupied. And I'm a bit the same, as the OH and I served 55 years between us without any harm ... and watched it happening to others. Which is one reason we're on the Poppy Team here.

But ... it's Remembrance. That's what it is. Remembering the fallen, whether its the 55,000 of Bomber Command or the squillions everywhere else.

AND, for the RBL, it's about seizing the moment to generate funds to care for those in need. Not just WW1 or WW2, but Korea and all the other sh*t people have gone through, or just "Joe" who served and is now in need of some help. He might have done a couple of years' National Service ... that doesn't make him lesser, he's still 'one of us'.

So I will happily gob away about RBL, or Holidays4Heroes, or any military-based charity you care to name. Because those of us undamaged by our service should, in my non-humble vocal opinion ( ;) ), do a bit extra for those who didn't end up quite as lucky. And I'll wear my Poppy, Poppy Pins, sweatshirt and fleece constantly for the next couple of weeks ... to help remind people to donate.

Then we all take a deep breath, launder them and stow them for next year. (Unless you're on the local RBL Committee, or similar, because the work of meeting the need is a 365 operation).

[/rant] :cool:

[54Phan]

I buy one as soon as I see them on sale, and wear it until the morning of November 12.

[54Phan]

Well put, sir. (For the previous poster)

[NutLoose]

I respect her right to chose not to wear one, she has that right thanks to those that gave all to ensure it for her. Though I do question her motive in making a big issue of it.
I do wonder how she will resolve her conflict over the issue if she is involved in any Remembrance Services.


I have noticed of late this propensity to cast aspersions on people seen not to be wearing them in public, end of the day, it's their personal choice, I'm as guilty as the rest of noticing that too, the ex News of the World editor wasn't wearing one for her court hearing, the others were.
Myself I rarely wear one due to FOD issues, though I do purchase one.

[Stendec5]

Oh God, am I sick to the pit of my stomach of these politically correct morons.

[MPN11]

Oh God, am I sick to the pit of my stomach of these politically correct morons.

"Differently Aware" is perhaps a better term in this case? :rolleyes:

[cornish-stormrider]

Not a day goes by, we'll that's not quite right. Reality is more than a day and less than a week that I don't give thanks for living where and when I do, and for all those whose sacrifices mean I can do so.

I can, and do criticise the gub'mint of the day, practice my faith without fear or persecution. I have a roof over my family's heads and enough money for food, iPads and all the luxuries I wanted.

Sure I work hard and I am fortunate enough to have a job, but I still remember.
Yes I might be some ex REMF who never got near a front line but hopefully the engines I fixed bought someone back safe and sound, job done.

What someone chooses to wear or not on their clothes on one day,or a few makes no damn difference to me.

I remember, damn right I do, my son will grow up knowing that on some days daddy is not ashamed to be in floods of tears in church, and that after the last post, when the service is all done, daddy is stepping outside to hoist a large malt, thankful that he can do so.

Here's to you, men and women in uniform, past and present. Your sacrifice will not be forgotten, not on my watch. I've spent enough time around you all to know that now is the time to retire to the bar, mine's a Glenfiddich.

[1.3VStall]

If a spam vicar chooses not to wear a poppy I think not a lot of her. However, if she chooses not to donate money to the British Legion poppy appeal then I'll think even less of her.

The poppy is a symbol, but it is the donations that enable the British Legion to continue to perform the vital work in caring for members of our military family in need!

[Sir George Cayley]

Blood relatives died and fought in the Great War and the one that followed known as the Second World War.

I've worn Poppies since being in short trousers and quietly remembered the obscene loss of life on all sides.

I don't wear anything to do with the Boer War, the Hundred Years War or the English Civil War despite my ancestral home being in Yorkshire. No, not even a White Rose of Peace.

The reason is relevance. That symbols relate to specific moments in history means that I think we need a new emblem for subsequent campaigns. (You can't have a Burma Star if you weren't there)

I support Help for Heroes and the British Legion and Bomber Command Association but I've not worn a poppy for some time.

It's not through disrespect for the dead of later campaigns it's for the perceived dilution of the original intent.

10,000 soldiers died the same day my ancestor did. Sad.

SGC

[Courtney Mil]

This raises a very topical issue. Please, someone tell me the answer to this. As an Air Force brat and then serving member for 30 years, I find I can only address vicars as "Padre". Now, I've just lost my Mum and Dad-in-law and have found myself addressing a female vicar. Can I say "Padre" or what should I say?

[Basil]

I must be getting soft; for the second time in a week or two I agree with most.
Re Vicaress PJ - I'm sure she means well but doesn't really understand what we, in Europe, think of the events of the first half of the twentieth century.

[Danny42C]

So the Revd. P.Jackson stands on her "democratic right" not to wear a poppy. There are rights and rights: your fist's rights end where my nose's begin. There is much talk about "freedom of expression. " Milton had it about right: "Licence they mean when they cry 'Liberty'". So, "War is somehing she does not believe in"... Join the Club !...Who does ?... (Close your eyes tight, it might go away).

But, unfortunately, it seems to be in the human psyche to have wars from time to time. And when they do, someone has to fight them. It would be nice if it were not so, (I'm sure the 55,000 dead men of Bomber Command - and all the other war dead - would agree), but it is so.

And in the aftermath, it is surely right that the rest of us (and not only the survivors) should treasure their memory and honour their sacrifice. "Blackadder goes forth" (I think that was the title) touched the right nerve with that famous fade-out.

I wear my old poppy with pride. (I say 'old' advisedly, I keep the old one year on year. Not that I'm more of a cheapskate than the next man, but I do not see why aged veterans (or Army Cadets for that matter) should stand out in the cold with their trays to collect money from the public which any decent Goverment would provide from taxation).

Of course the Revd. Jackson can wear her white poppy if she wants - it's her "Human Right". It's a free country, isn't it ? (and how did that happen ?) She can wear a swastika in the pulpit, if she likes (and see how far she gets with that "Right"). Or burn or Koran or two (and it has been done) - but I would not advise it under any circumstances.

D.

[TomJoad]

This raises a very topical issue. Please, someone tell me the answer to this. As an Air Force brat and then serving member for 30 years, I find I can only address vicars as "Padre". Now, I've just lost my Mum and Dad-in-law and have found myself addressing a female vicar. Can I say "Padre" or what should I say?

Courtney, assuming CofE, on first meeting simply address the vicar as "vicar". If RC then "father". Most are pretty down to earth these days and, particularly in your circumstance, will most likely go by 1st name after introduction. If all of that feels uncomfortable then Padre certainly would work - may even act as a useful ice-breaker; you never know they may have been a HMF Chaplin. Sorry to hear of your loss.

Tom

[TomJoad]

I have no issue whatsoever with folk choosing not to wear the poppy weather they are public figures or otherwise. I even admit to finding the whole thing a little bit overly orchestrated these days with a creeping state character to it. I find something terribly contrived seeing politicians and media types eager to be seen wearing the poppy from 1 Nov. I will make a donation and wear the poppy a few days before the 11th and at our town remembrance day service. That is my want - each to their own.

I do wish however, that those who wish to make some sort of statement, anti war or otherwise, would do so during an event of their own and not hijack what for many people in this country is still a very personal and even spiritual moment in our cultural calendar. But then we live in an age where offending others is taken as a right.

[Courtney Mil]

Tom,

Good answer. Thank you. I don't like first names with clergy or doctors, so I think I'll take the middle piece of your advice and go with the P word.

Again, thank you.

[racedo]

Its that time of year again sadly when wearing a poppy or not becomes a political event. :ugh:

[smujsmith]

Tom, Courtney,

Respect to both, and possibly the correct way of looking at it all. No one forces anybody to wear a poppy, and not wearing one does not indicate an irreverence to the sacrifice of our troops during many conflicts in the past. Is someone who donates £1000 to "Help for Heroes" who does not wear a poppy any less worthy than the man who throws 50 pence in the collection bin ? All are equally benefactors to the cause, and we should recognise that.

Smudge

[Tankertrashnav]

Can I say "Padre" or what should I say?


Well I suppose it ought to be 'madre', but I think you'd get an odd look from her if you did!

[Courtney Mil]

Yeah, Tanker, that was the thought that went through my head at first meeting.

Smudge, Mate, I hadn't expressed a view about the Poppy thing. For me, it's each to his, her or the Padre's choice. Mine was a simple request for advice.:ok:

[TomJoad]

Smudge,

Exactly, too many folk are all to ready to condemn these days without a care or respect for being properly informed. To be honest it gets to the stage where their complaints/arguments are empty of meaning or purpose - all fodder from the age of twit er.

[Gnd]

Re some of the previous posts, yes people are forced to wear them - I would be very surprised if military orders or directives did not stipulate where and when you WILL wear the poppy. I think there is a tad of PC in the military and we (particularly at the SO level) can not be seen not to fall into line. I, for one, do not need to wear a poppy to remember my friends that I have lost in aviation crashes, not all in War.

Let it be a personal thing BUT I do so agree with the reason for collecting, if I have to wear a poppy to ensure the cash goes to the needy, that is a sacrifice I am more than willing to make. If it (wearing a poppy for 11 days) is the only thing that makes me think of the fallen - I am a poor specimen of a human being!!!

[bakseetblatherer]

Thankfully in NZ the RSA conducts 'Poppy Day', which is the last Friday before ANZAC Day. Thus the 'debate' (if we can call it that) about when to wear a poppy is moot, they're only available from a max of a week before. When I was in the UK I certainly noted with much tutting and shaking of the head about the race to be wearing a poppy first, much like Xmas ads and stuff in September!

[sitigeltfel]

Had this vicar bothered to remove her blinkers and take a close look at the cult she belongs to, and preaches on behalf of, she would find that the symbol she wears round her neck represents the best part of two thousand years of slaughter,
pillage, rape and corruption of the very worst sort.

Any qualms she has about wearing a poppy should pale into insignificance.

[Wander00]

SGF - how well put...........

[Tankertrashnav]

The cross was a symbol that one man was prepared to suffer an agonising death to save the souls of his fellow men. That at least is the belief of Christians.

The fact that it has been misused over the centuries, for example by being carried at the head of conquering armies is the fault of those who would choose to misuse the symbol, not of the symbol itself.

The poppy is a symbol of remembrance of those who have died in war. The fact that it is misused by many, to the extent of being doled out in TV studios, or being ordered to be worn by servicemen on parade is in a lesser way something similar. Misuse of the poppy should not detract from its original meaning.

[cornish-stormrider]

Some interesting replies,
Some I disagree with quite strongly, in fact I'd go so far as to offer to buy the coffees while we argue the point for and against my "cult"

But each to his own, as a practising Christian, albeit not a very good one, I do find the stance of this vicar somewhat upsetting, and it strikes me more to be about free publicity for her than her beliefs.

Everyone has the right not to wear a poppy, if we force one person to wear one what have we become?

As to the cross, generally I do not wear one.
I carry one in my wallet as a reminder of what my saviour has done for me, it does not protect me from harm or guarantee me anything, it is simply a reminder of the greatness of My Lord's love for me.

[West Coast]

Traditions are best honored by those with a desire to participate rather than those who feel obligated to.

[CoffmanStarter]

This BBC Blackadder clip has been posted before ... however for me, the message is very clear and most poignant from 2:17 onwards ...

Good luck everybody - Blackadder - BBC - YouTube

I can still remember as a lad, going with my Dad every 6th of June to the Dover War Memorial (early in the morning), where he would lay a single Red Rose that he had grown in our garden. When I was old enough to ask ... Dad explained that he would not/could not forget the men that fell around him on D-Day in the early hours before the main Normandy Landings started (H Hour) ... he was then a young Lieutenant with the Royal Engineers detailed to undertake pre-landing mine clearing duties on Sword Beach ... he was later awarded the MC for his actions.

The Poppy for me remains a powerful symbol of remembrance as TTN has said.

We WILL remember them.

Coff.

[seadrills]

I have been in the Armed Forces for a couple of years and I whole heartedly agree with anyone who does not wish to wear this symbol.

The very reason I am serving is to allow British men and women to enjoy their right to choose.

Whether that choice is democratic, social or environmental I will put my life on the line to allow my fellow citizens the right to choose.

[MPN11]

Traditions are best honored by those with a desire to participate rather than those who feel obligated toA fair call. Do you celebrate 4 July, and Memorial Day? Just asking.

The cross was a symbol that one man was prepared to suffer an agonising death to save the souls of his fellow men. That at least is the belief of Christians.Curiously, whilst doing our duties at the local Poppy Depot, we discovered RBL are now producing "not crosses" for planting in a Field of Remembrance ... Just a simple stick, with a Poppy on it. I'm almost sure, in the frenzy of packing, I also saw a Crescent.

It's not about whichever God it is, or even no God at all, it's about remembering those who gave their lives for the freedoms we enjoy today. I'm not a religious person, but I do thank and remember those who died, and for the rest of the year do my bit (as many others do) to succour those who survived, their widows and their children. In many respects, God(s) are a bystander as "The People" show their thanks and support.

When the people (and Ministers of Religion) stop supporting, I doubt there's much a God can do to help.

[Courtney Mil]

Good words, Seadrills. And hats off to you. :ok:

[West Coast]

MPN

Yes I do, just the same you won't find me marching in the gay pride parade as has been required by the San Diego city government of some of its employees.

[Photoplanet]

I have not yet bought this year's poppy.... Although I have one on my desk from last year, and one of the small metal poppy badges. I actively seek out ex-servicemen/women when buying a poppy, preferably ex RAF, but not essential. Ex-forces (not just war veterans, many others need assistance), Lifeboats and Air Ambulances definitely get my wallet open. These are things that our government should be financing to a greater extent, but we live in the present time, real world.

[TomJoad]

Had this vicar bothered to remove her blinkers and take a close look at the cult she belongs to, and preaches on behalf of, she would find that the symbol she wears round her neck represents the best part of two thousand years of slaughter,
pillage, rape and corruption of the very worst sort.

Any qualms she has about wearing a poppy should pale into insignificance.


Utter drivel. An oft quoted argument of the school/student debating chamber and one which is intellectually vacant. Man's desire for power, position, wealth and control was behind the events which you so readily blame on Christianity. Should you remove your own blinkers and consider the history of the West and in particular the development of Europe, intellectually, scientifically, industrially and culturally, then you would find it owes much if not all to what you ignorantly refer to as a cult. But hey, you are free to speak your mind - another tradition embed in law derived from Christian values.:ugh:

[TomJoad]

Some interesting replies,

Everyone has the right not to wear a poppy, if we force one person to wear one what have we become?

As to the cross, generally I do not wear one.
I carry one in my wallet as a reminder of what my saviour has done for me, it does not protect me from harm or guarantee me anything, it is simply a reminder of the greatness of My Lord's love for me.

cornish, could not agree more and well put. I carried similar throughout my time in Saudi. Not a magical totem but a constant reminder to me given the limitations placed under; a very personal choice with a very personal meaning. At the end of the day symbols have always been misused - look at the Nazi corruption of the swastika. The symbol itself is never important it's the meaning ascribed to it by people that is important. And that is what those in power throughout centuries have relied on to bend others to their their will, hence the schoolboy which attributes wars to religion. Again too many just ready to offend for the sake of offending.

[sitigeltfel]

But hey, you are free to speak your mind - another tradition embed in law derived from Christian values.:ugh:

Utter bollocks. I am free to speak my mind because the power of these cults to suppress it has been destroyed. They were very good at burning alive those of us who were "off message" and dared to stand up to the tyranny and corruption they practised.
As for so called "Christian values", it is the height of arrogance for them to claim these values for themselves when they are diffused throughout the civilised world.

[finestkind]

Sitigeltfel
Thanks for that. Totally agree.

One of the wonderful things about our “free” society that allows free speech is this little statement.

“It is better to be thought a fool than remove all doubt by opening your mouth”

When you make a statement to stand on your principals it would seem wise to be sure of what you are actually talking about

[Gnd]

I can't think of a War the wasn't hi-jacked by the religious divide and more often than not, started by it. I can think of lots that were stopped by the people the poppy aims to help - wearing it isn't going to stop that. Strong hearts and true conviction will.

[teeteringhead]

The Soldier: - By Charles M. Province

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the student organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves under the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
To all the brave men and women who have dedicated or given their lives
to protecting this country and its freedoms:
Thank you.



... and it is by wearing the poppy that we remember and thank the soldier (and sailor and airman etc)

[yarnsplicer]

The poppy does not advocate or glorify war. It simply mourns the consequences.

I am old. I wear the poppy for the family who kept the shop at the end of our street, who perished in an instant when a doodlebug chose them instead of me. I wear it for Uncle Alan, whom I never knew, and who disappeared in his Mosquito over Germany.

And, yes, I wear it for Hans, and Dimitri, and Bruce and Tex; all of those who never came home.

[goudie]

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'Gott mit uns.'

Religion certainly inspired those, fighting for the Nazi cause.

[Dan Gerous]

Every year this comes up, and it is always some knob, looking for a little bit of attention. I generally don't buy my poppy until the day before Remembrance Sunday, don't ask me why, I just do. I don't go about my daily business looking to see who is and isn't wearing a poppy. I do get the feeling however, that the meaning is being lost, and this is now becoming a bit of a social convention, where people must be seen to be doing the right thing, rather than thinking what it represents.

[teeteringhead]

where people must be seen to be doing the right thing .. exactly so - BBC is particularly notorious.

I would wager much that - for example - every couple on "Strictly Come Dancing" on 9th November will sport poppies ...... :ugh:

[TomJoad]

Utter bollocks. I am free to speak my mind because the power of these cults to suppress it has been destroyed. They were very good at burning alive those of us who were "off message" and dared to stand up to the tyranny and corruption they practised.
As for so called "Christian values", it is the height of arrogance for them to claim these values for themselves when they are diffused throughout the civilised world.


Like I said, you have freedom of speech and thought. Shame you are informed more by Dan Brown. Looks like we shall disagree then. I'm happy with that:ok:

[Danny42C]

teeteringhead, (your #66)

Well said, Sir !

D.

[stevef]

As usual at this time of year, I put some change into the Poppy Appeal box at my local. And, as usual, I didn't take a poppy. Many don't need to show their support any more than they need a RNLI/Cancer/Children in Need/Alzheimers etc badge of donation. They don't need white feathers either.

[Stendec5]

Wars have been fought since time immemorial, they are part of the human make-up. We have fought over food, living-space, oil, spices, minerals, water, insults, religion, ideology, good and evil (as perceived by either side) the list is endless.
To single out one specific religious faith and blame centuries of warfare upon it
smacks of someone working to an agenda. I wonder what that might be?
I personally wear a red poppy (based of course on the poppies that grew on
killing fields of France) around Remembrance Day weekend. I don't do it to make any kind of statement or because I feel in any way compelled, but simply to form a personal link with those that gave so much. Yes, I do remember you. Yes, I am thinking about you. Yes, at that special time (11th hour of the 11th day
of the 11th month) I show you the respect you so richly deserve.
I'll do so until I die. It's the least I can do.

[Dave Wilson]

As usual at this time of year, I put some change into the Poppy Appeal box at my local. And, as usual, I didn't take a poppy. Many don't need to show their support any more than they need a RNLI/Cancer/Children in Need/Alzheimers etc badge of donation. They don't need white feathers either.

Well said sir, I don't wear a poppy either but always put a fair chunk in the tin. Same with the Gurkha collectors and RNLI.

[Courtney Mil]

All good points, but another thought has occured to me (yes I know, that's two this year already!)

Folks wear the poppy. Other than a show of support, sign of support or a badge of conformation, it serves another, possibly unintended purpose (or maybe not). Marketing, I guess. If people feel pressured into buying and wearing a poppy, they are pressured into donating to the RBL. Great, eh? Everyone's a winner.

[newt]

I wear a poppy about this time of year. Not specifically to remember all those who died in the Great War or in WW2 but to remember the guys I served with who are sadly no longer with us.

For goodness sake do not turn this into some political argument orchestrated by the London University Students Union. Nobody is forced to give and wear a poppy just like they are not forced to give and wear a pink wristband!

It's a day of national rememberance and long may it remain!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Dave Wilson]

Ah the Royal Legiron, talking of which I have to say that the Aussie branch of same (RSL) puts ours to shame. Every evening at 1800 they all stand in silence and salute the fallen, and every man and his dog does so, civvy or ex services. Quite moving.

[Tankertrashnav]

You are right, Dave, the days of the old legion branch where old blokes in blazers would stand around re-fighting old battles are long gone.

I am secretary of a club which rents a room in the local legion branch for its monthly meetings. Since the beginning of this year, for reasons that I do not understand the club is no longer known as the Royal British Legion, but The ***** Club, although it is still administerd by the RBL, as far as I can tell.

Its certainly not a place I would care to socialise in. The clientele, no doubt attracted by the cheap bar prices are certainly not ex-service, or very few in any case, and there are some very dodgy characters hanging around - male and female!

How much longer the RBL can survive is problematic - but it would be a great shame if it were unable to carry on its excellent welfare and charitable works.

[18greens]

Surely the poppy like the war memorials and museums are all there to remind us that we must not do it again.

It's too easy to forget several million dead and pop off to fight some other war. The poppy to me has always been the stark reminder of the futility of war and the need to remember not to do it again. If the young ones ask why it is worn and why Remembrance Day exists we must tell them.

I will wear one. It's purpose cannot be forgotten.

[clicker]

I have a metal badge poppy brought some years ago as I often used to lose the RBL ones. It doesn't stand out like the regular poppies but that's what I prefer and at the same time I still drop a few coins into the collection tins each year.

[Clockwork Mouse]

The cunning RBL has put the year onto the new metal poppies! i am becoming a bit nervous about the direction the Legion is heading in these days. It is becoming less about remembrance and much more commercial. I believe that BAe are a major sponsor and that could be seen as a bit incongruous.

[Laarbruch72]

The cunning RBL has put the year onto the new metal poppies!


I've got dated metal poppies going back several years, it's not a new thing.

Anyway, if you personally were trying to sell poppies for charity, wouldn't you see a metal non-dated poppy at say, £2 as a severe business risk? You know that certain people will buy one and then re-use it for years to come, and you know that'll lose many years of potential donations. So why not date them?

At least it helps you spot the cheapskate at rememberance day. ;-)

[MPN11]

Every year the Jersey Branch of RBL produces a different pin, in a limited edition of [usually] 3,000. They have become collectables for some people, and a very small edition of box-framed sets has raised large sums at auction. In addition, most years there are small production runs [100] for organisations such as Police, Fire & Rescue ... and this year it was Police again, The Law Officers and the WRVS. In addition there are even smaller runs for Poppy Appeal volunteers, so you end up buying 2 every year. We ask for a minimum donation of £5 ... many people give more. And we usually sell out, from our pop-up "Poppy Shop", within a couple of days!

As Laaarbruch72 says, you stand out of you wear "last year's pin" :eek:

One day my collection will be very valuable! :cool:

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1030516.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1030516.jpg.html)

[moggiee]

When I was doing my A levels our head of sixth form gave a deeply offensive "sermon" at the weekly sixth form assembly in which he attacked the Remembrance service for glorifying war. I and several others tackled him about it and tried to put him right but he wouldn't have it.

At around the same time, the same teacher told me that I was a fascist murderer because I had been selected by OASC to join the RAF after completing sixth form. Funnily enough, he left teaching a few years later and became the local Vicar in Ducklington, quite close to Brize Norton.

I doubt very much that he will be reading this but just in case..............Rev. Bob Edy, you were an offensive idiot then, are an offensive idiot now and probably always will be an offensive idiot.

I always donate - even out here in the UAE there are ways to do it, chiefly thanks to the local English-speaking schools (yes, Remembrance is on their "syllabus", even here) and I try to wear a poppy if I can. If for any reason I can't wear one, it doesn't really matter because in my mind I carry images like the one below. My great uncle is in the cemetery at Bayeaux - he was 24 and never even made it off the beach on D-Day. RIP Billy - your sacrifice is appreciated by the majority of the people you fought for.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2035/2350424415_c1d74a3312.jpg

[Basil]

Harry Drinkwater's lost diary from the Great War | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2491760/Harry-Drinkwaters-lost-diary-Great-War.html)
For those who cannot bear to sully their eyes with the DM, here's a precis:
Harry Drinkwater recorded the horrors of the First World War in vivid diary entries

Within an hour of moving off, we were up to our knees in mud and water.
The mud gradually got deeper as we advanced along the trench.

After five days in the trenches, we’re thankful we can still walk. I’ve had approximately an hour’s sleep a day - always standing up.

We eat with hands caked in mud, which has caused many cases of acute dysentery.

Snowed all night. Had a hard job to keep awake. One or two fellows - of whom I was one - were found to be fast asleep at the end of their sentry. We’d gone to sleep standing up - and the relief man was also asleep.
Under military law, this is a crime of the first water [punishable by execution]. So, as a preventative, we’ve arranged between ourselves that each sentry along the trench will fire his rifle at intervals.

Buried alive: Sergeant Ashby (pictured far left before leaving to fight) was buried in the mine crater mentioned in Harry's 6 June entry

I helped to carry an NCO to the dressing station. His features were blown away but I recognised him by his identity disk as one of my pals.

Jinks was hit by another as we lay next to each other. His legs had been blown off and he was going fast.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/07/article-0-1861012200000578-749_634x444.jpg
Good going for a paddle, innit?

[Bladdered]

I was selling poppies at Sainsbury's in Chippenham last weekend. Tall elderly gentleman approaches me with his wife pushing her little shopping chariot and he rummaged in his pocket for change. As the money went into the tin, he looked me squarely in the eyes and said 'I was there', 'sorry sir, not sure I understand, I asked quizzically', 'I was there on the beaches in Normandy - artillery, going back again next year with the Regiment'. We stood for a few minutes chatting - aged 92 and very much looking forward to next year, he was a delight to talk to.

Two hours in a supermarket shaking a tin for the appeal is a brilliant experience, so many great people out there who care and for those that do not or who have their own opinions, I still engaged them with a smile and a cheery good morning. Here is hoping for a record year of contributions and many thanks to all who filled my tin to the brim, even the tiny children who tested my biceps by filling the tin up with their pocket money pennies.

[Wander00]

Collecting for the Army Benevolent Fund in 1979 or 1980 outside a cinema showing "A Bridge Too Far". Wednesday evening I realised that the guy who just put a fiver in my tin had been there the two previous nights, and put a fiver in each time. "You like the film then" I said. ""Very accurate", he replied, " And I was at the "dress rehearsal". He came Thursday and Friday evenings too, an put a fiver in each time - when a fiver really was a "fiver".

[Genstabler]

Quote of opening paragraph by Joe Glenton in the Guardian today:

"With the official Remembrance Day ceremony closing in, and soldier worship about to hit its tedious annual peak, the public have been given an unexpected glimpse of war's unsanitised face. A Royal Marine has been convicted of murdering a wounded Afghan in his custody. Two marines were acquitted".

The article, and many comments from readers, make depressing reading.There are some very unkind, unflattering and totally misguided views expressed. It seems that Help for Heroes and all the other initiatives to support our troops and their families are in danger of generating a counter productive reaction in the civilian population.

There is also an increasingly popular counter action to the Remembrance Parade and the red Poppy from Veterans for Peace who believe that the RBL has lost its way and has led to a national glorification of war. Reluctantly I have some sympathy with them.

Armistice Day is about remembrance. It must not become a circus.

[Hangarshuffle]

Glenstab - your spot on. Its a 4 week sell spree by the RBL. For a good cause yes, the best cause but thats what it is to some.
I dont need a poppy to remember the many, none of us do on here. But I fully understand why some are wearing them and support it. I just think its sometimes over the top.

[ArthurR]

Its good to see not all are like that vicar (or vicaress)

Hundreds to attend funeral of war veteran who died alone - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/britain-at-war/10437790/Hundreds-to-attend-funeral-of-war-veteran-who-died-alone.html)

[Basil]

I did as suggested by the vicar. Halfway to the service at our memorial I realised I'd forgotten to pop on the poppy. No-one berated me ;)