Terrorist and enemy military threat from microdrones and UAV.

[Hangarshuffle]

Good afternoon. I'm not sure if this thread has been done before, please feel free Mods to delete or move.
A while ago I was in the grounds of a private stately home. Catching my eye a smart car emerged, a table set up and I believe one of these was launched and flown. microdrones UAV - platform for aerial inspections, aerial video, aerial photography, (http://www.microdrones.com/index.php)

A very small,discrete remote controlled aircraft is how I would describe it. All in all it was up and about flying for perhaps 1 hour, landed then packed away and gone. I am guessing taking pictures of the big house and grounds. Or maybe just a jolly. I have to admit that although I have seen UAVs abroad, I had never seen one of this particular type before, and how actually good it was at what it did.

My guess is that these craft will become more and more available, and probably cheaper and mass produced.

I think it inevitable, seeing as we use them now for military use, that some people will eventually use them actually in Great Britain against ourselves, in a variety of ways.
My questions.
1. Is the threat from these craft acknowledged?
2. Is the threat taken seriously?
3. Could we counter the threat?
4. Is the RAF responsible for policing the skies against them? Or the local police?
5. is it practical for the RAF, now to form into defence units against them?
6. Am I over-reacting?

Fancy a debate?

I personally think that one day somebody will try and use these craft against us and ours. You are all intelligent people, put my mind at ease.Can we stop them?

[airborne_artist]

I can imagine that people in the Herefordshire area have and are looking into the use of micro-UAVs for recce, surveillance and munitions delivery. It's a damn sight easier and more accurate than a close target recce by night, though an alert sentry may well be able to spot such a device fairly easily.

If we are using them then we must expect them to be used against us.

[defizr]

You can buy your own for £350 or build one to your own spec.

DJI PHANTOM QUADCOPTER in Stock with GPS Ready to Fly RTF by DJI Innovations - Quadcopters Uk official DJI Dealers for the Uk (http://quadcopters.co.uk/dji-phantom-ready-to-fly-quadcopter-570-p.asp)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cKYqR9Y-3o

Multi Rotor UK - Index (http://www.multi-rotor.co.uk/index.php?action=forum)

[defizr]

This one's even got Tom Cruise providing the backing music ;)

thriller of S800 + Zenmuse Z15-G - YouTube

[CoffmanStarter]

Don't worry ... effective countermeasure technology is available :ok:

http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/recliners-chairs/148067.jpg

Hat, coat ... door

[Hangarshuffle]

Am I correct then in thinking anyone can simply buy and fly one of these machines as they wish?
Are you required to register them with say, CAA?
I mean do the UK authorities do that? Keep a track?

The stately home I mention above is regularly overflown at fairly low level by UK Mil and Civilian aircraft (on approach to their respective aerodromes and bases).
The UAV was up to a height of (I'm estimating) 300 feet.

Israeli fighter jets shoot down drone - YouTube

Granted we are not Israel, but their methods pretty straightforward (and perhaps practiced) in dealing with them.(Video shows an F16 (I think) shooting one down with an AAM a year or two ago).

I wonder if we could realistically do this today in the UK, but I doubt if it is ever really been actually practiced by the RAF. I think perhaps it should be, and I stand to be corrected?

[Tashengurt]

Small ROVs are already extensively used in several industries, notably broadcasting and film making as a cheap means of getting overhead shots. You'll occasionally see the shadow of one crop up in programmes like Top Gear for example.
I've no idea what their payload is and I'm not about to Google it but I'd imagine if they were going to be used to carry explosives it'd need to be done by someone with access to proper stuff rather than some radicalised buffoon with a pile of hairdressing products and fertilizer?

[500N]

One of the Animal Lib orgs used one of these but unfortunately flew it over private property in the US during a shoot with predictable results.

[Hangarshuffle]

The payload must be several kilo then if they carry cameras used in industry. When they use it they will probably obtain a small amount of plastic explosive, a small live camera for relay via net streaming, mobile phone and detonator or such. A flying IED. Terrorist emphasis will be upon surprise, accuracy and proximity to a target upon detonation and a defenders initial inability to counter.
It will come. In fact it has probably already been used somewhere.
I've no doubt our counter-lot have already thought this all through (a la Olympics and the air defence installations).
Is it a police job to defend against though, or RAF? I'm just interested, and I'm sort of surprised the RAF in an age of constant cutbacks, don't try and plug themselves a bit more here (turf protection for jobs and careers etc).

[dragartist]

check out the ANO here.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf

Even get kids helicopters with video recorder for less than £60.

[Hangarshuffle]

These things are amazing - I actually thought they were thousands of pounds to buy.
I'm going to get one - for purely peaceful purposes if your reading this, spooks.

[500N]

"and I'm sort of surprised the RAF in an age of constant cutbacks, don't try and plug themselves a bit more here (turf protection for jobs and careers etc)."

New stream available for RAF Regiment Recruits

"Shotgun shooting specialist" ;)

[Lyneham Lad]

That six-rotor job with gimbal-mounted camera is impressive. Wonder what the control handset/transmitter range is and whether or not line-of-sight is required?

[chopper2004]

Wasn't there a similar topic to this on here, a few years back but as a part of a UAV debate? Or was it on E-Goat or ARRSE, where someone pointed out with a quote on 'further down the food chain' stuff gets passed down. The nightmarish scenario of a container ship / pleasure boat / sailing up the Thames (or any other waterway for that matter) and the bad guys letting loose a fair amount of MAVs with IED.

[500N]

Chopper

Are you saying the bad guys use MAV's with IED's to sink the ships ?

Why not just use another high speed boat and ram it ? A lot easier and far more controllable both in terms of accuracy and detonation / effect.

[chopper2004]

The author of that topic / thread stated he thought that the ships used as a launch platform against cities and towns akin to a poor man's Tomahawk. As in couple of dozen of hundred or so MAVs / RC a/c lifting off and causing havoc and damage to people and property.

Speedboats can be sunk by GPMG or cannon fire from a helo, if caught :) as seen during Operation Prime Chance / Praying Mantis by certain units in North Carolina and Kentucky :cool::cool: and by the Flying Leathernecks finest.

Cheers

[defizr]

They use 2.4GHz spread spectrum. On a good day the range can be up to a mile or a little more.

[defizr]

You can get what they call 'first person view' where the camera on the quad transmits pictures back to a screen in your transmitter or goggles.

World's 1st epic FPV quadcopter rescue - YouTube

[PEI_3721]

Fear not; the town of Deer Trail CO USA are considering issuing gun licences to shoot down any government drones which fly over the town - (25$ ea for $100 bounty per kill).
This begs the question of how to distinguish government drones from the others.
Deer Trail, Co., sees applications for nonexistent drone-hunting license. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/09/06/deer_trail_co_sees_applications_for_nonexistent_drone_huntin g_license.html)

[defizr]

Bit of a monster

OFM GQuad-8 Giant Quadcopter Test flight and Aerial Video - YouTube

[dragartist]

I am sure it is not that long ago since there was a thread on here about these quadrocopters flying in swarms.

this First Person View (FPV) is interesting. how miniaturisation of electronics and mass production of modular devices has made these things possible and affordable.

The next logical step is autonomy (this is done with some military systems) good article in this months RAeS mag on the subject of autonomy and RPVs.

With autonomy the distance between the remote pilot or dependence on LST or Sat Comm becomes immaterial. I guess the limitation becomes energy.

How long will it be before autonomous systems become available to the RC fanatic or small commercial operator?

In the early naughties when we were introducing autonomous systems, spook HQ were certainly interested from a CT point of view. Probably not to develop countermeasures but certainly to be aware of a probable threat. ITAR just delays these things becoming available - or does it?

I remember having discussions with ADRP at the time over how we were going to certify such things. this was before the rule book had been written.

[dead_pan]

Are you saying the bad guys use MAV's with IED's to sink the ships ?

I think he was saying the bad guys unleash of swarm of MAVs from the ship or whatever. Its only a matter of time before some nutter uses one to build a flying bomb - you can bet yer ar5e various defence co will be looking at 'alternate uses' of these gadgets.

[barnstormer1968]

An answer to the OP is that in the UK it would be down to the civil police (who also use these) to counter them as the civil police have primacy.


The micro RVP would not need some form of explosive on board to be able to be used for terrorism, but I'm not going any further on that.

A local criminal uses one of these to check for police observation teams on his land. It is much cheaper and less obvious than the microlight that used to be employed for this task (day time only, and a hand held thermal sight is still used at night). Green posters may well remember just how important it is to keep your head down, or mask any OP activity, but it seems the police just can't get into this habit and stand out like sore thumbs at night.

[500N]

dead pan

I could think of easier less complicated ways of delivering and one
less likely to be interfered with, both physically and by radio.

[VX275]

The micro RVP would not need some form of explosive on board to be able to be used for terrorism,

The Lithium Polymer batteries that power these devices make effective incendary bombs. Lithium Sulpher batteries are even better as they have more chemical energy than TNT.

[L J R]

ISTR that some here within these 'cyber-walls' flew these type of aircraft in 2007, in a dusty place, and seeing bad guys, and 'dealing' with them (from an un-named US city with lots of lights!).....all whilst earning HM wage....nothing new here....

[Thomas coupling]

Under 7kg you don't need to (a) tell anyone, (b) conform to any national rules, (c ) have any quals to fly it.
HOWEVER: Taking piccies or conducting covert ops against an unwilling participant carries a 2 year prison sentence and UNLIMITED fine if found guilty.

They (in all their shapes) are the future, like it or not.

[CoffmanStarter]

My previous frivolous banter aside ...

The BBC have started using this technology for OB filming ...

BBC Hexacopter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24712136)

Mind you model rocketry has come a long way too :eek:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nlVcAJFU-5E

And they carry cameras ...

Coff.

[dragartist]

Coff, reminded me of the Estes model rockets I used to build and fly in the 90s. In the catalogue there was one which carried a 110mm Kodak instamatic. I never bothered.

I still have them in a box in the garage loft. now I wonder if the solid fuel engines are life ex? These days I would have to get a chit from DOSG or whatever they call themselves now.

[CoffmanStarter]

Dragartist old chap ... You're an engineer ... Do what comes naturally :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

[unmanned_droid]

This thread has forced me out of lurking and in to posting.

I just wanted to say that this particular type of threat has been extant as long as there has been a radio control aircraft community.

The problem with the 'drones' that are proliferating in the civvy world is that their distribution is via many many streams.

Radio control aircraft and their associated parts are generally sold through relatively few outlets and to relatively few people so a fairly decent community generally grows up around a good hobby shop. These guys do look out for their own, and have even been advised by the Police in the past about looking out for suspicious behaviour and persons. This doesn't mean there aren't ways in which people could purchase materials or equipment to make RC aircraft unnoticed in the past, and that's even more the case with internet outlets.

This sort of attack has been documented in the US and in Europe so it's not unheard of:

Students 'planned terror attack using remote control planes' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10140642/Students-planned-terror-attack-using-remote-control-planes.html)

Terror and toy planes ? not so remote ? CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs (http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/07/terror-and-toy-planes-not-so-remote/)

Remote Control Plane Plot: Massachusetts Man Indicted - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/remote-control-plane-plot-massachusetts-man-indicted/story?id=14633954)

Seems in all cases that it was the observations of the people that uncovered the plot, rather than anything specifically related to the use of RC aircraft.

Would these plots have worked? Maybe. Lots of ifs-and-buts on the technical side, but if the aim was to spread terror, then yes, they most likely would have worked depending on the target.