Drinking, driving and flying

[Roland Pulfrew]

I see the UK Mil fraternity will be joining our civilian colleagues and coming in line with the 2003 Transport Act. New rules come in on 01 Nov this year which reduces alcohol limits for those involved with flying, live arming etc to 09 thingies per unit volume (same as the civilian rules). It's just a pity that the DIN has not been released (with 5 days to go to implementation date) and the JSP on PIDAT has not yet received an update either.

[BEagle]

Have a beer and ignore it, mate!

Jeez the RAF must be an awful life these days.....:(

[VinRouge]

Any chance for the MAA to get its thumb out of its arse and do the same wrt cap371/Easa subpart Q?

Or is it only air tanker that gets to enjoy decent fdl's?

[Roland Pulfrew]

BEags - advice taken, just returned from the pub. One only of course as had the car!!

Vin - any chance of a translation?

[high spirits]

Will this have an impact on sqns at the weekend. Do all sqns have standby cover for sickness or do they just call the next person on the list. If he's under the drink drive limit but above the 9 line, what happens when he has an incident?

[orca]

This is serious. If you think that all our squadrons have a duty person - we could be talking about as many as 15 people here!;)

[Laarbruch72]

About time too, it's not terribly professional to be going near a flight deck when there's alcohol in your system. It might have been acceptable to fly hung over many years ago but just like racism (for example), something shouldn't be deemed okay simply based on the principle that it was okay a decade or two ago. I hope BEagle is joking by the way and that my sarcasm radar is on the blink.

[Roadster280]

I think there's a substantial difference between operating aircraft, vehicles, machinery and weaponry while hungover or even drunk, and E&D transgressions.

I'd rather be called speccy-4-eyes than killed by a drunk driver.

[Lima Juliet]

I always thought that if I could fly under an uber-shabby fog then I'd cope with the fog of war. Hangovers sharpened my skill requirements and not blunted them!

During WWI and WWII most of our aircrew in battle took solace and support from booze - train as you mean to fight?

Finally, I remember hearing from the RAF's top expert on fatigue saying something like a disturbed night of sleep of 5-6 hours was like turning up to work to fly after a couple of beers - are we going to insist that all aircrew have no children?

I write this part tongue-in-cheek and part serious!

LJ

[Wensleydale]

Back in the 1980s, we were called into the squadron for a station minival - I had had a couple of beers and yet was put on the flying program to fly in two hours time. I told the captain that I was unfit to fly due to having had a beer within the prohibited time limits and suggested that he take someone else. Next morning I was called into my flight commanders office for a hats on b*ll*cking and read the riot act about squadron loyalty. I did ask about what support I would have if there had been an incident and I was given a blood test etc but this was sniffed off with the comment that this would not happen.

On the same squadron (now AWACS), but over 15 years later, I was placed on six hours to deploy as Christmas standby for personnel in theatre. I pointed out that I was on leave. That's all right said the flight commander - you can do this while on local leave. I then pointed out that I could not drink over the Christmas period and that if I was on leave then I could not be on standby - if he signed the leave cancellation then I would do the standby and then take my leave over the new year. After a stand-off we finally agreed a compromise to change the standby to a 24 hour commitment as he wanted me to deploy in the new year (it was during a period when mission crews were deploying for about 4 weeks in every six due to a manning shortfall - the squadron had declared too many crews for the number of mission personnel but to quote the Squadron boss - he "could not reduce the number of crews because it could affect the crew captain's career").

The bottom line - there are rules for drinking, but they only apply to the individual - the squadron hierarchy could ignore them. (Perhaps this post should be on the "Just Culture" thread).

[Lima Juliet]

PS. Laarbruch, the chemical formula for Cholestrol is C27H45OH which contains the same Hydroxyl group (OH) as Ethanol C2H5OH. This makes Cholestrol an alcohol, so technically speaking I hope we are all flying with alcohol in our system! :8

[seadrills]

There is a rumour that the alcohol limit for aircrew will be 10 mg and 80 mg for maintainers.

[VinRouge]

Roland,

I refer the significant delta in crew duty limits for crews operating under the air tanker ops manual and what could be termed "the rest of us".

One meets the mrp requirements set out with respect to flight duty limits, the rest of us don't.

By a significant margin.

On exercise as well as ops.

[Kitbag]

There is a rumour that the alcohol limit for aircrew will be 10 mg and 80 mg for maintainers.

9mg for operators, ATC, LAG or other time critical decision makers, 35mg for airworthiness related jobs.

[Fareastdriver]

Does that now mean that when an RAF helicopter is airborne on an early morning flight with two pilots the one flying it is expected to handle the cyclic AND the collective.

Ye Gods.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Vin - sorry, you are still talking in riddles "mrp"?

And I'm not sure what the issue is that you refer to? I'm guessing that mil voyager pilots have different crew duty times than the civ voyager pilots? Is that correct?

Kitbag has the figures correct. From the brief I saw it suggested 9mg equates to zero ingested alcohol. Not sure in what time period (as the detail still isn't out) but I vaguely seem to remember the RAFCAM doctors stating it takes 48 hours for alcohol to completely clear the system. That buggers up the weekend if you are on the Mon AM wave.

[Toadstool]

Do we need a drink that badly that this this is an issue? I don't think that any flier, including myself, needs a drink to sharpen the requirements. We have plenty of time for first time madness or whatever to drink. The fact that some people used to do this years ago doesn't make drinking before a flight big or clever. Simple, don't drink before you fly. If you cant do this, perhaps you have a problem.

[vascodegama]

I recall an episode some years years ago when intense pressure was put on us to fly when we had been certainly drinking far too much. This was after being given the green light to hang one on ! To my lasting shame I did not say no but luckily the AEO did. I often thought about submitting an air clues article but have no confidence in the system.

[gr4techie]

Do we need a drink that badly that this this is an issue?

Bingo. This has always amazed me about the British culture. That most Brits must have a drink. If you don't have a drink others ask why aren't you drinking? Like it's against the norm not to have a drink. In other cultures this would be an alcohol dependancy problem.

If you do not have an alcohol dependancy problem you can go out for a social occasion and not drink. Or you would not need to have a beer or wine every time you go out for a meal.

It amazes me when you ask the youth of today what they are doing this weekend, they reply they are planning to drink and drink and drink until they are absolute p*ssed. Why do they feel they need to do this every weekend?

[MPN11]

When I joined the light blue, my father was talking to an ex-RN colleague who said "oh, the Drinking Service!"

It seemed to be SOP, from Day One. And went on forever. And, sadly, still does because it becomes habitual.

I wave no flags, take no moral position, but certainly the 'rhythm of life' through the 60-90s timeline seemed to be that drinking was 'what you do'.

Only ever been unfit for duty once, TBH. Downtown Singapore' late 60s, got back to the Mess around 0600, shower and change, Airfield Inspection and ... 0730 in Local. I thank <insert Deity> that the weather was cr@p, and almost nothing flew that morning, as I sat in Local feeling the hangover evolving. NEVER again - "I learned about Air Trafficking from that".

[Hangarshuffle]

There has never been an honest debate about it. Can't recall ever been pulled up for drinking, ever. Apart from once by my Chief AH at Yeovilton Fire Station. Never again in front of him.
Part of the forces culture since time was recorded.
Certainly, I honestly have to say I thought the RAFs drinking culture was stronger than the FAA (and I don't want to start a row, just my honest observation around the world). This actually increased my respect for the crabs, in a younger mans way.
Is it really necessary to enforce this new rule?
Another shot to the body of the prone UK armed forces?
Why now?
I've been in many tight spots of bother for our lovely Queen and although I hate to say it, a drink often got me through it all, usually afterwards down the messdeck with my mates>? Or in the pub.
Next day I carried on, and nothing further was said.
Familiar at all levels>? what is the problem> Is the date 2013 the problem?

[Easy Street]

Personally I find it a bit odd that the flying limit is to be so much tighter than the driving limit. Strange as it may seem, things happen a lot faster on the road than they do in the air because everything is so much closer and can change path so much quicker (kids jumping out into the road, for example). And while unexpected things can and do happen while piloting aircaft, the road is a far more unpredictable environment in the short-term. If 9mg is required for safety in aviation, why not behind the wheel? Don't tell me "realism". Realism would allow people to have a single beer or glass of wine with dinner and not have to worry about their jobs the next morning. Even though a single drink will probably be absolutely fine, any enjoyment will be more than offset by the nagging doubt.

On the plus side, all those stations that have moved their Happy Hours and squadron bar opening nights into midweek will now have to move them back to their rightful place on Friday nights! Saturday night Summer Balls are probably history as well...

[Big Sand]

Gentlemen & ladies,
I seem to remember a certain 'Summer UAS Camp' at St Mawgan in the early 80's. As a student if you were not having a yellow or a brown at the bar comment was made by the senior officer in ear shot.

This was about 'squadron morale' In todays PCas world of love everyone and 'you' cant say that it was dreadful BUT it was an integral part of squadron morale.

Ok, you cant transpose that part on to today - granted.

Going into battle in business or in real means you need to KNOW the guy / girl standing next to you or on your wing. That process of ' knowing' takes time and is formed in training and in the mess. Some may say the 'mess' doesn't count but I would beg to differ - its all part of that complex bond that holds under adversity.

So, breath testing a young female / male fighter pilot on ops isnt in context. I would put my ass on her / him getting to target any day compared to the 'social norm' any day.

Horses for courses, let those who have 'riden' dictate the rules not those would may have perhaps liked to? It's not about alcohol - its about bonding....?!

VBR

[Mach Two]

Fun though it may be, I seriously cannot buy any of these arguments that suggest drinking alcohol makes one a beter operator or is essential to bonding with one;s squadron mates. The new limits are worrying and may well be inappropriate (I don't know), but the arguments put forward here are utter tosh.

I would really like two things: clear direction of when I can and cannot drink and some senior direction about how we are going to make this work and fit in with a normal social life.

Remember there is a difference between civ pilots that, in some cases, have a few days off at a time and mil pilots that may have a weekend, excluding other duties.

Above all, we need to be told exactly what rules we're required to work to and exactly what they mean in practical terms.

Fortunately for me the social life in the Mess has been beaten down to virtually nothing now anyway, so this is very unlikely to affect my bar time very much.

[Toadstool]

Hangar, and the telling words were [QUOTEI hate to say it, a drink often got me through it all, usually afterwards down the messdeck [/QUOTE]. Afterwards. I wouldn't dream of driving the day after a skinful so why would i fly after a skinful and fly a crew down the back while not at my best. I wouldn't. Perhaps some people thought it was ok "back in the day" but it never should have been, shouldnt be now and certainly shouldnt be in the future. I'm off to get ****e faced, not flying till Tuesday.

[Deepest Norfolk]

It may be folklore, but a story went around many years ago, Thus: -

A pilot (Colt, Jag ISTR) was shoved in the sim and given an escalating emergency to handle. No problems, landed safely.

He was then given a half and left to marinade for half an hour or so and given the same scenario. Crashed and burned.

Just lucky first time or is there a moral here?

Another point, you don't need to be p1ssed to bond. I'm (fortunately or unfortunately as per one's perception) allergic to alcohol and I can have just as good a time and bond as effectively as the next wino!!! :)

DN

[Just This Once...]

This is just box-ticking by the MoD. If the MoD was really serious about the performance difference between 9mg and say 15mg I would expect them to have a long hard look at our fatigue management policies.

Our current rules on long 'days' and short 'nights' combined with a parsimonious attitude to crew rest facilities will continue to ensure that quite a few of our crews are performing below the level that the revised alcohol rules allegedly address.

I think our civilian counterparts would be surprised at how fatigued we can be before launch across the planet and the average civilian authority in Europe would be horrified to know that I have arrived at one of their busy civilian airports at the end of a 20hr+ crew duty day.

[VinRouge]

Jto, the two are linked.

Figure*2 : Fatigue, alcohol and performance impairment : Nature (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v388/n6639/fig_tab/388235a0_F2.html)

it's pretty obvious whether you are pissed or not, your performance, decision making and levels of complacency due to anticipated fatigue levels, well known about and due to lack of aircrew, fatigue are going to be at dangerous levels for a fair few of our routine tasks.

As for the new regs, I fully support them. If you can't operate in or around an aircraft without having had the self restraint to not drink, or the integrity to fess up, you don't deserve to work in aviation.

[Just This Once...]

Indeed, they are very much linked:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v388/n6639/images/388235ab.eps.2.gif

So towards the end of a typical military crew duty day I have the equivalent of 0.07 to 0.09 blood alcohol.

The medics define the behaviour as:

-Blunted feelings
-Disinhibition
-Extroversion

The medics list impairments to the following:

-Reasoning
-Depth perception
-Peripheral vision
-Glare recovery

Yet the MoD calls it:

-A perfectly acceptable time to try and land the aircraft

[Mach Two]

I'm not sure how long your typical crew duty day is, I'm assuming you are thinking of a crew flying a route and landing at around 20 to 22 hours? The thing is, if you redraw that graph so that the left vertical axis goes from 0 to 100 (or a bit over) it would suggest an answer that looks very different. The dip in performance would look very slight. At worst, the crew is still funtioning at around 95% effectiveness. I'm sure there are plenty of other human factors that are likely to have a much larger effect than that.

One could argue that landing the aircraft at 95% effectiveness is pretty reasonable. Just a thought, Just This Once. :ok:

Of course, if you're worried about landing then, it looks like you just need to fly around for another eight or nine hours and you'll be almost back to 100%.

[VinRouge]

M2, the right hand side of the graph is pertinent to this discussion.

Having operated having been awake for 30 hours on a standard duty day, I can tell you I would have preferred to have had 3 pints and be well rested. When it takes three attempts to get your squalk code read back you know you aren't firing on all cylinders.

I wonder what the long term health effects are of these 'routine' trips? Be useful for cam to do a study as I'm aware that gastrointestinal disorders, heart issues and sleep apnoea aren't unheard of.

[Just This Once...]

I like your thinking and perhaps worth a go in front of a jury!

:ok:

Just to define the scale, above 0.1 BAC you are in to erectile dysfunction territory…

[Mach Two]

Yes, you both put it into context well.

Just one point:

Just to define the scale, above 0.1 BAC you are in to erectile dysfunction territory…

Speak for yourself, Tiger!!! :E

[Tankertrashnav]

I recall an incident back in the 70s when a surprise early morning callout (minival maybe?) found a crew assembling to fly with a captain who was still distinctly "under the weather" from a very heavy late session the previous night. The crew tactfully pointed out to their captain that he obviously had a heavy cold and blocked ears, so he should declare himself unfit to fly. Said captain wouldnt take the hint, so his crew downed navbags and refused to fly with him

Result, a huge bollocking from the boss for the captain and none of that "squadron loyalty" crap mentioned by wensleydale and vascodagama for the rest of the crew. Said captain learned his lesson and went on to a very successful RAF and civilian career.

[vascodegama]

TTN

Not sure the line you are taking but I did not mention squadron loyalty or anything like it. As I said the AEO refused to fly and the other crew went. They were just as bad as us! What surprised me was the attitude later of some individuals who thought that the AEO was being a pxxf by refusing to go.

[Tankertrashnav]

Perhaps more accurately I was referring to what Wenselydale experienced when he quite correctly pointed out he was unfit. Some squadron commanders on the make seemed to think that the rules could be bent if it got things done - quite whether they would have backed up those whose arms they had been twisting if things had gone wrong is a different matter.

[cornish-stormrider]

Coming at this from the sleep deprivation angle.
Currently I am head hammer smasher in a factory.
Many times I have been called out, so woken from broken sleep after a long and stressful day.
Dressed, car, drive to work, work on live three phase equipment.

Drive home, back to sleep (yeah ok)
Alarm goes for the following day and back in to work.......

I feel far worse at this point than if I was we'll oiled.
yet there are no rules in law to protect me, working time directive included.
11 hrs daily rest is not opt out able yet if that eleven hrs is broken by a callout, or three in a night it is immaterial.

The only way to not be dead is to inform the management I am going for a nap for an hour on works time and only wake me if there is a major disaster,

Point being, NOBODY should be in work in an unfit state, whatever the job.
Th rules need to be set as such that should you have a glass or two with dinner then the limit for flying the following day will allow this, if that can't be achieved safely then no booze for you...

I also maintain that British military drinking culture is not big nor clever.
Call it what it is, alcoholism.

I had a chat with a fellow JellyTot once, we totted up his previous Friday score.
He was at twenty units before leaving the beer call.
Total for the evening was fifty three units........

Thats alcohol poisoning or cirrhosis of the liver and an early death.
Yet he was thought of by all as a top bloke because he could handle so much booze..........

Yes, enjoy a drink. Get wasted on occasion but if you can't go out and stop drinking or be sober all night then there is an issue.....


Oh, and I had a beer last night, very nice it was too.
That's three beers in a week for me, what a drinker.

[Mach Two]

Call it what it is, alcoholism.

I take all your points, but that statement is incorrect. At worst it is alcohol abuse, at best, a bunch of mates enjoying a few beers. Alcoholism is a medical condition and very different to what's being discussed here.

[Geehovah]

I recall the TACEVAL at Wildenrath at 5.30 on a Friday as Happy Hour was spooling up. We were all well into the first pint.

Sorry SACEUR we've all had a beer we can't possibly react to a hooter. Call back tomorrow.

I'm looking forward to the BBC headlines.

[Lima Juliet]

There is another reason for having a fews scoops on your first night down-route - adjusting to the local time zone. Many Drs used to offer Temazepam as an alternative, which is really nasty drug that can cause significant side effects and also generate addiction/dependance.

So I would opt for a few scoops of the amber nectar instead of taking drugs!

[cornish-stormrider]

Mach Two has corrected me,
What I meant was alcohol abuse, which you should infer when reading alcoholism.......

[gr4techie]

Alcohol dependancy?

This means that drinking alcohol becomes an important, or sometimes the most important, factor in their life and they feel they’re unable to function without it.

But if you were ‘dependent’ on alcohol, you’d be stumbling around drunk every day, right? Not necessarily. There are varying degrees of alcohol dependence and they don’t always involve excessive levels of drinking. If you find that you ‘need’ to share a bottle of wine with your partner most nights of the week, or always go for a few pints after work, just to unwind, you’re likely to be drinking at a level that could affect your long-term health. You could also be becoming dependent on alcohol. If you find it very difficult to enjoy yourself or relax without having a drink, you could have become psychologically dependent on alcohol.

[ShotOne]

Good thread, Roland. Being as vin hasnt responded to your translation requests, here goes; MRP. minimum rest period (free of duty), FDL. Flight duty limit, CAP 371/ subpart Q -document govening civilian UK and European hours limits.

The 9 thingies you mention relates to alcohol in breath. The act is worded in terms of blood alcohol which is 20mg per hundred ml of blood for pilots and other aircrew. That compares with 80 mg which is the UK drink drive limit, and also the limit for engineers and certain ops staff.

Arguably you have been subject to these limits since 2003 as there is nothing in the legislation to exempt anyone just because they are wearing a green suit, albeit its been unlikely to be put to the test. Being breathalysed isn't that common but it does happen especially in Holland, post incident of any kind or if you annoy security. Also bear in mind that in some countries (egNorway) you can be nicked- and go to jail -if one of your crew is over the limit even if you haven't touched a drop!

[Mach Two]

Thank you, ShotOne. Some of us haven't been keeping up with the civvi av regs. I know some of my colleagues here have an interest, but for we who who are lifers, the TLAs don't always make sense. Thanks.

[beardy]

Leon

There is another reason for having a fews scoops on your first night down-route - adjusting to the local time zone

It may seem that way to you; it is untrue. I have tried with and without, absolutely no doubt about it, I sleep much better without 'a few scoops.' Alcohol does not help you have meaningful sleep. Moreover, unless you intend to spend more than 4 days in the local time zone there is no point in acclimatising, unless you want to hit the bar when it's open and you are awake.

Having done it, the bar is an excellent place to build squadron confidence, but it is not the only one and should not impinge upon flying. Yes fatigue is just as much a problem when assessing performance, but accumulating fatigue and alcohol is plain stupid.

[A and C]

Being in civil aviation I was approached by a military aviator friend about the civil regulations that I have been working with for some years and how this would effect the military.

The conclusion that we both arrived at was that there are no real changes for practical purposes, some of the civil regulations are a little different but nothing that will get you into trouble if you stay within your old military regulations.

The bottom line is that the only people who this will have any effect on are those who drink and fly.

I like most of you guys like a beer or two but only when the hangar doors are firmly shut.

[effortless]

If you'll excuse the interruption, colquhoun et al conducted the research into alcohol and tracking tasks using matelots. This lead to the introduction of the breathalyser and the end of the naval tot. This was in the mid sixties. The impairment after one tot was considerable.

There is this paper from us military. May throw some light. The abstract and conclusion are worth a read.

here (http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA286474)

[Buster11]

The effects of alcohol on both confidence and actual performance were pretty clearly shown in an experiment reported in the British Medical Journal in 1958, which has stuck in what passes for my memory ever since.

A group of experienced Manchester Corporation bus drivers were taken to a disused airfield, along with their buses, and shown a gap between two bollards. Initially it was something like 8 ft 6 ins. for an 8 ft. wide bus. They were then asked if they would be confident of driving their bus through that gap and then asked to do so. This they duly did. The drivers were then asked to drink a single Scotch and soda and asked the same thing, but with a slightly smaller gap. In brief, as the drivers were fed with increasing doses of Scotch and the gaps were narrowed, there was a direct correlation between the increase of their confidence and their inability to actually fit the bus through the gap. Eventually they were trying to put their bus through gaps narrower than the bus, quite confident that they would succeed.

That’s probably a slight simplification, but subsequent Googling reveals the paper here if anybody’s interested: The Risk Taken in Driving Under the Influence of Alcohol (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2029328/?page=1)

[The_Agent]

I think some people on here may have missed the point. And I mean that in the nicest possible way, because I did too.

Let's look at some figures:

The body metabolises or burns alcohol at a rate of about 16mg per hour, or 0.016 BAC. Exact figures vary depending on gender, weight, food in the stomach. Not the amount of alcohol consumed, interestingly. But for most 80kg males, it is very close to this figure.
Alcohol Metabolism (http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa35.htm) (this is just one reference, there are many others that agree)

A pint of 5% beer contains about 28mg of alcohol. (568ml x 0.05)

It will take you about 1.5 - 2 hours to completely remove the alcohol from that pint from your system.

If you had downed 3 pints of beer at 10pm and went to bed, the alcohol in your stomach would have reached your blood stream by 11pm and begun to metabolise.

You would now have 84 mg of alcohol to get rid of, and a BAC of 0.084, which would put you over the drink/drive limit in the UK.

As this will reduce by 16mg per hour as your liver metabolises it, the alcohol will have been metabolised by about 0430 hrs.

By 0800 hrs, there will certainly not be a trace of alcohol in your system above your normal levels.


Let's find an example that will get you in trouble. Time is the key factor.


If you have a late one and end up drinking 5 pints around midnight:

Assuming it takes about an hour to digest beer (whiskey is faster, beer takes a bit longer) You will have 140mg of alcohol in your bloodstream by, say 0100hrs. It will take nearly nine hours to clear this. After 7 hours, at 0800hrs, your body will still have 28mg of alcohol in your bloodstream - giving you a BAC of 0.028. At 0900 hrs it should be 0.012. At 1000hrs you should be alcohol 'free'.

I have been pessimistic here and assumed a 'downing' at midnight. Drinking slowly over the evening will result in a lower BAC by 0100hrs.

There is a lot of comparison between the drink / drive limits and the flying limits. Remember - the drink drive limits are usually referred to "on the night". So I can have a pint of beer and drive my car, knowing that I have a BAC of around 0.3, whereas the limit is 0.8. I could probably get away with two...?

However, the flying limits are the 'next day' - after your body has had hours to metabolise the alcohol. You have to pack away a reasonable amount (ie a drinking session - not a big one, but a few sherbets nonetheless) to put yourself in harm's way 10 or 12 hours later.

In short - going to the mess after work for one or two pints is not going to be a problem. Nor is a couple of glasses of wine with or after dinner. The RTSA rules are just defining the old 'no alcohol in your system' of old with a new number: 0.02BAC.

Please throw spears. I may have made a gross miscalculation that I am not aware of here, but the maths is so simple, I am not sure how.

Thanks for reading.

[Party Animal]

The Agent,

Very well put with a key takeaway that whisky is burnt off quicker than beer! One stored for the future! :ok:

[Wrathmonk]

How many accidents/incidents have uk mil had in last 20 years where alcohol was a direct or contributory cause?

Whilst I know the policy to check for alcohol was introduced in the early part of this century, and it is often mentioned in accident reports, I am not sure how many of those outside of the aircrew have actually been checked. in the period 10-20 years ago how many of those directly involved in an incident (including ATC / aircrew / groundcrew) were actually checked? Anybody actually got first hand experience of having a blood sample taken due to an mil aviation incident in the last 10-20 years?

[bakseetblatherer]

I must say that my wife was not impressed after we arrived back from det and the flying pilots asked for her to drop them home as they didn't feel they were under the limit to drive due to the previous nights drinking in Belgium.

[downsizer]

Saw a DIN about this today w/BA limits and who would be subject to the higher and lower limits....

[Toadstool]

high spirits

How many accidents/incidents have uk mil had in last 20 years where alcohol was a direct or contributory cause?

Compare it with fatigue as a contributory cause factor. So why now? Where's the evidence? Is the drinking culture worse or better now?

Not sure why now, but they have been talking about this for some time now. As others have said, even though alcohol in the system may have metabolised by the morning, the fact that alcohol may affect sleep by reducing REM means alcohol could possible be a contributory factor in causing fatigue.

The USAF mandates through AFIs that all aircrew must have a certain amount of rest before each flight and briefs this accordingly. The 12 hour bottle to throttle is also reiterated, with some skippers briefing 12 hours bottle to pre-flight show time.

[VinRouge]

Anyone got a link to the DIN?

[ShyTorque]

A pilot (Colt, Jag ISTR) was shoved in the sim and given an escalating emergency to handle. No problems, landed safely.

He was then given a half and left to marinade for half an hour or so and given the same scenario. Crashed and burned.

Just lucky first time or is there a moral here?

Moral is: Don't go in an aircraft that you know isn't safe.

[newt]

In the Olden Times, the rule was eight hours throttle to bottle!!

I remember standing next to a very nice flight engineer who qouted the rule "To be sure there should be no drinking within eight feet of the aircraft"

Irish rule of course!!:ok:

[Busta]

I have no doubt that this topic will be the main focus of conversation at the F4 tdpu on the 8th.

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.

[Legalapproach]

The limits come into force as from 1st November and are:

In respect of a duty prescribed in regulation 5, the relevant limit is—
(a) in the case of breath, 9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres;
(b) in the case of blood, 20 milligrammes of alcohol in100 millilitres; and
(c) in the case of urine, 27 milligrammes of alcohol in
100 millilitre

regulation 5 :
5.
The duties prescribed in this regulation are any d
uty—
(a)of a pilot of an aircraft during flight or when conducting a ground run;
(b)of any other member of the crew of an aircraft during flight;
(c)of a person on board an aircraft during flight to give or supervise training or to administer a test;
(d)as an air traffic controller;

(e)of an operator of a remotely-piloted aerial systemin flight;
(f)of any person in relation to the handling and use of a firearm when he has in his possession the firearm and ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm;
(g)of a person doing any of the following in relationto the operation of a depth-charge launcher, firearm, mortar, rocket, or torpedo—
(i)handling missiles, fuses, charges or propellants;
(ii)firing or giving orders to fire;
(iii)calculating or setting a target area;
(iv)giving instructions about the location and bearing
of the target;
(v)deciding or setting the explosive effect;
(vi)ensuring that the missile or explosive functions co
rrectly in the target area;
(h)to supervise a person carrying out a duty within pa
ragraph (f) or (g);
(i)of a person handling, or supervising the handling,
of explosives.

Under Regulation 4 there are limits of

(a)in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres;
(b)in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres; and
(c)in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres


in order
(o) to supervise, certify or carry out maintenance on an aircraft;
(p) to authorise a military flight

Link to the legislation here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/2787/pdfs/uksi_20132787_en.pdf

[teeteringhead]

Very well put with a key takeaway that whisky is burnt off quicker than beer! ... swings and roundabouts M8.

I reckon most of us could shift 3 x doubles quite a bit quicker than 6 pints ....:\

[Rossian]

....a Canadian flight surgeon accompanied an Argus crew on one of their circumambulations of all the maritime bases around the North Atlantic. His considered opinion at the end of three weeks was; "40oz of Bacardi is no substitute for 8 hours sleep". The patrols flown between each base were generally 12 to 14 hours duration.

Tell the young uns today an'they wun't believe you......

The Ancient Mariner

[Tiger16]

Thanks to Legal Approach for specifying the new regs so clearly. Question is: "what do these limits mean in practice?"

The extant rules regarding bottle-to-throttle time are unambiguous and easily understood. However neither I, nor the plethora of experienced aviators I've spoken to about this, have any clear idea of how to ensure we comply with the new 9mg limit - short of abstaining altogether, which ain't gonna happen!

In other words, please step up RAFCAM: some guidance on bottle-to-throttle time, and how much is safe to drink before that, would be widely appreciated. Yes, I know people metabolise alcohol at different rates, but that hasn't prevented issuing of such guidance in the past - and should not do so now!

[BEagle]

In other words, please step up RAFCAM: some guidance on bottle-to-throttle time, and how much is safe to drink before that, would be widely appreciated.

Unfortunately, the usual excuse trotted out by the horny-handed bollock-fondlers is that "If we gave such guidance, people would only drink up to it...." :rolleyes:

Easiest annual medical I ever had was the day after RAF BZN's Med Centre had had their Christmas party. When it came to "And how much do you drink?", I answered "Probably less in a week than you had last night!" to the sweating, obviously hung over quack....:hmm:

[Just This Once...]

Well we got a GASO update today that gave bottle-to-throttle guidance that seemed woefully optimistic and I understand the medics are now on the case.

What was less helpful was the link to the DIN and the guidance to plow through the new Armed Forces Act 2011 (goes live tomorrow) and the Transport and Railways Act.

Just how much more difficult can they make it to understand?

Although I did understand the 2 years in prison for driving to work legally and then authorising a trip whilst over the 'higher' limit.

[Dave Wilson]

Nothing to add except that one extremely plastered FJ jock I knew went on to the highest rank...nuff said. That was the ethos of the times, that was the way it was, I was no different.

[BEagle]

To show how little we really knew back then, an example I always quote is the 'crew round' we would enjoy after a long trip in the Vulcan if we landed in the evening when the 'pub' was open....

After debrief, it was down to the scruffs' bar. Beer was 20p per pint, there were 5 of us in the crew, so a round cost £1......

5 pints later we'd drive to our homes, thinking nothing of it.

Not that I'm defending such activity, but it was the norm for the era..... And many of us are still living happily ever after!!

[Dave Wilson]

Not that I'm defending such activity, but it was the norm for the era

Nail on etc. Easy to look back with hindsight and criticise. What norms do we have now that will be considered infra dig in thirty years time?

[newt]

But Beags, we only earned eight quid a week after tax!!:ok:

[Kengineer-130]

There was an urban legend of the C130 Captain that flew a 6 hour leg from AKI back to LYN, then got done for drink drive on the M4 :eek:Any truth in that one?

[Dave Wilson]

I remember my wages tripling when I joined. I was earning £11.70 a week as an apprentice electrician (out of which I forked out £4 to mum and dad for board and still managed to run a motorbyke and get leathered every weekend) and I went from that to £35 a week as an airman. Felt like a millionaire.

[The_Agent]

Please read the link on my previous post. Or any others that come up with a Google search on "alcohol metabolisation".

We all metabolise alcohol at the same rate - 0.015 BAC per hour. Unless you're an alcoholic, in which case you metabolise it faster, or have a rare condition that causes you to produce your own alcohol or not metabolise it at all.

The main difference is in how fast you absorb the alcohol on the first place (type of drink) and how much alcohol increases your BAC by per drink (little people = less blood so the same amount of alcohol means a higher BAC). But once you have a BAC, you shift it at 0.015 per hour. Big or small.

0.08 BAC (just too drunk to drive) will shift to zero in 5 hours. For everyone. Unless you have a rare metabolic condition.

The old guidance of two pints is still good, and nothing in the preceding 10 hours.

Even a 5'3" female will struggle to get a BAC over 0.08 with two pints. 5 hours later they will have zero blood alcohol.

Nothing has changed. The DIN simply defines "zero alcohol" as less than 20mg/100ml of blood (or 9mg per 100ml of breath). This is the same limit as Poland and other countries use for their drink/drive limits.

If you were abiding by the previous guidance, nothing has changed! I am seeing unnecessary knee jerk reactions to this DIN and it is frustrating!

Don't get drunk, don't drink late.

Put it another way - after a summer ball you pack away a LOT of alcohol, but you don't hand in your wings, right? No - you just allow sufficient time for the alcohol to clear. That is al we are talking about.

For most 80kg males, 2 pints is around 0.06 BAC. 4 hours later and it is gone.

For smaller people, 2 pints may be as high as 0.08 BAC. 6 hours and it is gone.

Don't drink too much. Definitely don't drink late. Allow your body sufficient time to metabolise the alcohol from your system before working. A couple of glasses of wine with dinner (7pm, assuming you work at 8am) is not going to be a problem.

I am hearing "no mid week bar visits" from my hierarchy, which seems ill informed. This is my own opinion.

Do your own research, and hopefully you will see that there is still a place for going to the mess for a pint after work.

Again, throw spears if you think I am missing something.

Thanks for reading.

[newt]

Clear and concise Agent!

Glad we used to go to the bar at 5 pm and never drink late!!:\:\:\