Flying Doctors

[enginesuck]

I was at a private practice surgery getting my bi-annual Offshore medical once over today and the doctor mentioned he was ex RAF - told me he was a pilot as well. I said I'd never come across an officer who served in the Medical and GD flying branches. He claimed he was dual trained ? Seemed fishy to me but I left it at that. What do fellow ppruners think on this one ?

[BBK]

My current and previous AMEs were both flying doctors so to answer your question nothing fishy at all.

The previous one also checked me out on the Chippy! Happy days. :)

[Wensleydale]

Some medics were trained as pilots - I believe it was so that they could take personnel with airsickness problems airborne? I knew of someone who was regularly airsick during his training and the "flying doctors" sorted him out so that he could finish his training.

Edited to add:


The previous one also checked me out on the Chippy!


I found that current day docs try to encourage healthy eating and discourage entering a chippy!

[Innominate]

I believe that a relatively small number of medical officers were trained to fly, from as early as the 1940s; they mostly worked in the Institue of Aviation Medicine (now the Centre for Aviation Medicine) undertaking research.

I think they remained in the Medical Branch, rather than transferring to GD.

[enginesuck]

Many thanks for replies, certainly an interesting combination of specialties. I feel bad for questioning it now.

[Just This Once...]

There are still a few pilots who are qualified doctors kicking around the RAF.

[Pontius Navigator]

I think they remained in the Medical Branch, rather than transferring to GD.

True.

A number of engineering officers also went through flying training and did an operational tour before returning to branch. I don't know it the medic went beyond flying training.

[ACW599]

A splendid chap called Mike Bagshaw, who was on UWAS in the early 1970s and I believe ended up as a senior medic with BA, was a medic who also flew. I recall him telling some interesting stories about low-level Hunter trips at one rather alcoholic reunion many moons ago...

[Just This Once...]

Some of the doctors are in the flying branch (formerly GD), rather than the medical branch. I know of 2 that had sqn commands.

[Danny42C]

I heard of this in the '50s and '60s : I was told they gave them about 100 hrs but no wings. I believe some engineering officers got in on the act, too.

[ACW418]

Danny,

In 1963 the junior MO at Syerston wore wings. He had done the basic training, got his wings and then reverted to being a doctor.

A friend had a problem and he diagnosed the issue leading to an eye operation and subsequent satisfactory career. He was about to be chopped when the doc got to hear about it and solved the mystery.

ACW

[Wander00]

SMO at Cranwell early 60s was a gp capt and wore a pilot's brevet

[gr4techie]

Maybe he was a Dr in the RAF, but he had a PPL from the weekend flying club? Therefore the walt blags "I'm a pilot and in the RAF".
I knew an SAC who was a Cessna 152 warrior with 50 hours, who tried this trick every time he talked to a girl in a bar. Pitty he couldn't be himself.

[kaitakbowler]

The SMO at Sek Kong 1979 was a "winged" pilot, trained thru to fast jets, to better understand aviation medicine. Could always be found in a 28Sqn Wessex.

IIRC he was Iain Macoubrey

[SpazSinbad]

In early 1970s at least two RAN doctors went through Basic / Advanced RAAF Flying Training to gain their wings and subsequently one Mick Flynn flew the A4G and Macchi MB326H in RAN FAA. See photo in 2002 as a Surgeon Commodore with wings. The other surgeon went to helo flying in RAN FAA.

Click Pic: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewerAlbum/th_MickFlynnCDRE2002.jpg (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewerAlbum/MickFlynnCDRE2002.jpg.html)

[Basil]

I joined the RAF with a guy who went operational on Vs and then left to commence medical training.
Whilst at S Cerney, he fell on his bayonet and, narrowly missing his eye, collected an impressive 'duelling scar' on his forehead. He later drove his car through a wall, partly detaching his nose.
The joke amongst those who'd known him at Cerney was that he had to do the doctor training to self medicate;)

[ancientaviator62]

The doctor who did my civvy medicals had flown Meteors with the Auxiliaries.
So a bit more qualified than your average PPL.

[FantomZorbin]

The SMO at South Cerney in the mid '60s sported the flying badge ... and several 'gongs'.

[Wander00]

Got the thought processes going - as a kid in Eastcote, W London, our family dentist was a R Aux A F Meteor pilot. When he found out I wanted to be a pilot any treatment was done to meet aviation standards.

[Basil]

The SMO at South Cerney in the mid '60s sported the flying badge ... and several 'gongs'.
That rings a very faint bell. What was his name?

[1.3VStall]

Peter S*****y, well known in gliding circles, was an air cdre doc with wings. He is still flying gliders and towing with a Pawnee and he must be getting close to 80!

[matkat]

My SengO in XV at Laarbruch(1978) was also a pilot had the wings to prove it to.

[Hummingfrog]

We had a flying doc (TL) as a student on NUAS in the earlier 1970s. He used to regale us with stories of what people came into A+E with - oranges featured once or twice!!

I believe he progressed to quite a high rank:ok:

HF

[chopd95]

In late 60's a "flying doc" at Cranwell flew me ( vertically challenged ) to Oakington to check that my stumpy pins could manage the rudder in a Varsity. En route in the JP4 he also checked his own aeros sequence. As I type I realise that we could have simply driven across the airfield to the Varsity squadron at Cranwell...........but where's the fun in that?!

[Exascot]

Mike was one of my instructors at Cranwell. Outstanding pilot and QFI. Can't vouch for his doctoring skills but also suspect outstanding.

I seem to recall an incident involving a bicycle, broom handle and valuable painting in College Hall which was damaged in a joust along the revered corridors. Now who was that? :eek:

[sycamore]

Basil, think it was Brian Reader ? at SC..

[Wallah]

There was a female Dr at Brize circa 2001-2005 who qualified as a Dr before she joined up as a pilot. As I understand it, having completed the T-38 cse in the States, she fell foul of the enormous holds in the mid-90's. Rather than spend years holding waiting for an OCU she told them to stuff it and re-mustered as a Dr.

[27mm]

J---y H---s - erstwhile Tiffie jock and also a Doc....;)

[Wrathmonk]

There was a female Dr at Brize circa 2001-2005

Wonder if that was the same one who held at Marham, as a JMO, after leaving the flying training system (albeit still with wings on her chest)? Used to confuse many a newbie (of all ranks) who pitched up for their medical appointment only to think they were a victim of a wind up by their new sqn/section.:D

[Haraka]

Going back to the late 60's , I was detached to I.A.M. from the Towers in '69 for four months :) , pending leaping off to the fleshpots of London as a "student".
At that time there were, I think , 6 Flying Doctors in the Service ( two of whom were called Smith- one of whom was at Cranwell ).
As to their proficiency, the late John Lemon certainly was P1 on IAM's Canberra; I met others who had flown combat types ( David Urquart being one - now long deceased)
There were, of course, medics with wings who had gone the other route. One of the Group Captains at the time ( T.. D...) was on Wellingtons at Bircham Newton as a Pilot and then later remustered ( by weird coincidence whilst at Bircham N. he served along with the lady who later became my mother) . There was also at least one Cranwell cadet who followed the same path in later years.
It is often said that many Pilots are frustrated Doctors, whilst many Doctors are frustrated Pilots.
Anybody care to comment ?

[Brian 48nav]

It rings a bell with me too ( especially as we both graduated on 218 ) - I keep thinking the name Cheshire, but no sign of that name in a couple of RAF Lists I have.

Mike Bagshaw regularly flew into Boscombe ( '83-'86 ) in a Hunter T bird from Farnborough - c/s Nugget 38, IIRC.

When my No1 off-spring was instructing on ETPS (2004-06) there was another instructor TP, ex-Harriers, who was also a doctor - how he found time for all the swotting I don't know?

[Wallah]

Wrathmonk,

The very same. I was also holding at Marham at the same time (97-98) in Stn Ops.

[Union Jack]

by weird coincidence whilst at Bircham N. he served along with the lady who later became my mother

Anybody care to comment?

I wouldn't dare!;)

Jack

[Pontius Navigator]

Just to clear the facts between those with two careers, doctors who then became aircrew and the out of branch aircrew.

The RAF doctors and engineers of 1960s vintage had been commissioned in the Medical and Engineering branches. They may then have serve on operational sqns on out-of-branch tours.

I can't speak with direct knowledge of doctors but on 35 there was an AEO, good egg and all, who at the end of his one tour went back to being an engineer in branch. I think, given his rank and age, that he had probably done a JEngO tour before his training as an AEO. His next tour was OC EES.

Of the former, we had a GD/P co-pilot on Nimrods who was not a doctor but a physiologist (IIRC) who applied to transfer to the Medical branch. The RAF refused, so he joined the RAMC in the rank of major and was returned to medical school to get his medical degree.

[Rosevidney1]

Not only the RAF. The Spec Av Med at AAC Centre Middle Wallop, Ian Perry also trained as a helicopter pilot in the late 1960s.

[dragartist]

Yes Rose, There was a smashing fella I worked with on a couple of jobs who flew Lynx. He was the senior medic at JHC in around 2009/10. Lt Colonel Mike H.....an. It was nice to see the Army the RAF CAM and Q2 IAM doctors working together. Mike did not have any axe to grind but there appeared a great deal of animosity between the two light blue formations. I could not find an excuse to have a Navy Aviator Dr on the job but that would have been fun. I did wonder if having to travel on the IoW ferry would have been sufficient justification!;)

[Wander00]

DB who was our station SMO at Wyton early 90s became an aviation medicine specialist and quite senior, and did some flying, but not sure if he qualified for a flying brevet

[Union Jack]

I could not find an excuse to have a Navy Aviator Dr on the job

Quite a few of these in dark blue over the years - especially on the job .....:ok:

Jack

[wiggy]

Mike was one of my instructors at Cranwell. Outstanding pilot and QFI. Can't vouch for his doctoring skills but also suspect outstanding.


We must have been at Cranditz about the same time...anyhow whilst I can't vouch for MB's QFI'ing in his time at BA he was an exceptionally pragmatic and sensible AME, though I accept these day's he's not at all popular in the Aerotoxic community.

Nice guy but I always thought he was one of life's great under achievers ;)


http://jarvisbagshaw.com/4_mike.html

[MightyGem]

The Spec Av Med at AAC Centre Middle Wallop, Ian Perry also trained as a helicopter pilot in the late 1960s.
When I was AAC(83-97) all Spec Av Meds did the Army Pilots Course and were awarded wings, and were expected to remain current. They used to take APC students up on disorientation flights.

[Exascot]

Nice guy but I always thought he was one of life's great under achievers ;)

One has to agree but have to be careful what we say here he will know who I am and he is almost certainly on this forum - that is if he has the time!

I only failed one sortie on the JP and it was with MB. It was a low level navex. I turned somewhere over middle England but was one digit out. We were blatting along and I thought all the landmarks 'looked' about right. Well railway lines and lakes do move occasionally! Next turning point was Lakenheath. At 250' 300 kts, I think, I proudly identified it on the nose at just a few miles. MB just cooly said, 'I have control' and pulled us round in a high G turn through 180. 'That is Manchester Airport, he said. I had been on 280 degs instead of 180. As I say only one digit out, no great deal :eek: No shouting or grief at the debrief. I was as nervous as hell on the repeat exercise for obvious reasons to those who have been through this. 'Baggers' got me through it and was instrumental in streaming me to METS where eventually I would get a navigator! I did OK in the end, thanks to you sir.

[beerdrinker]

Mike is still around - now a Professor (hardly underachieving) of Aviation Medicine at at Kings College and visiting Professor at Cranfield. He did my SEP revalidation in his Bulldog this summer - great fun.

BD

[Background Noise]

There have been a few pilots with either medical or dental degrees. A few doctors managed to train to solo or wings standard. Some practised both. There was a QFI at Valley in the 80s who did both and I think subsequently went on the AvMed at Boscombe. I also think he went on to commercial aviation later.

I'm not sure that there are any RAF double-hatters now, even at CAM, although the USAF still value Flight Surgeons and there's one of those at Boscombe.

[air pig]

Do or did the docs wear their medical branch 'winged serpents' on their uniforms along with their flying brevet?

[Pontius Navigator]

Air Pig, yes.

There was one in 1970, looks like Jon xxxxxxxx can't read the signature. I did the Domine hypoxia run in Jan and in the Jun I was scheduled to do it on a pre-OCU. He pulled me off the run as I was current and we spent the next hour or so over coffee in his office chatting.

[teeteringhead]

medical branch 'winged serpents'

:=:=:=

caducei

[Exascot]

Mrs Exascot wore her 'caducei', if that is how you spell it, when she switched from being a nursing sister to being an ATCO. She remained qualified in both roles. The only duel use was identifying on one occasion that her Flt Sgt was suffering from gout :eek:

[Union Jack]

The only duel use was identifying on one occasion that her Flt Sgt was suffering from gout

Seems hardly fair to have a duel with someone suffering from gout .....:D

Jack

[RAFEngO74to09]

A number of RAF doctors in the Aviation Medicine specialty were trained to wings standard. In the days when we had lots of Command HQs, those controlling flying units had a Command Flight Medical Officer (CFMO) who worked with Command Flight Safety Staffs during aircraft accident boards of inquiry as a link to IAM particularly with regard to aircraft assisted escape systems and aircrew equipment assemblies. The HQ RAF Support Command CFMO in the mid-1980s wore wings.

[Rosevidney1]

Surely you only have a duel if you're quite sure you will be the winner! :ok:

[skua]

By great coincidence I was chatting to Mike B last night and told him about this thread. he is still merrily flying his Twin Comm.

[Lordflasheart]

A certain Col. K.E., RAMC was also an Army helicopter pilot and is probably still at it somehow or other.

The late (2011) Surgeon Cdr. Athol Hepburn was, I understand, a qualified service pilot – Meteors etc were mentioned I think, but willing to be corrected.

A recent CAA Doc flew RAF Venom FBs.

A number of current Airline pilots are also current AMEs - or vice versa, including some ladies too. :ok:



LFH

[Exascot]

Sorry guys I am usually more punctillious. But good for a bit of banter, you Ba***ards. My excuse is working on a smart phone thing in JNB after a rather dramatic medivac from the bush in Bots. Mrs Exascot in an isolation room in hospital here. Me sitting in a famous great old hotel nearby. Got to get something back from health insurance occasionally.

Very good aeromed pilots and what a cracking girly blonde aeromed doc. I decided to feel ill halfway through the flight but was totally ignored!

For the record Mrs Exascot doing OK. She will survive to take over looking after me. But it will be pay back time!

MB, I hope that you did find this thread. Don't forget about my offer of a safari here.

[sangiovese.]

Doc Marshal at AMTC had his wings too and a lot of types in his logbook IIRC...lovely chap, mad about aviation in a way I wish I could merely muster the enthusiasm!

[Union Jack]

For the record Mrs Exascot doing OK. She will survive to take over looking after me. But it will be pay back time!

Very good news but, regarding your last sentence above, I believe you might lose that "duel" .... :)

Jack

[Lou Scannon]

I was even stranger in that I was, in the mid 70's, a GD pilot at the Institute of Aviation Medicine. I remember dropping in on "young" Mike Bradshaw when he was going through the pilot training mill at Cranwell.

One flying doc who deserves a mention is Roland Winfield. Supposedly on the wartime posted strength as a doctor... at what later became the IAM, he took it upon himself to get a pair of wings then turn up at various operational stations with the news that he would be flying on ops with them that night!

It is said that he flew some 120 ops and I believe collected at least one AFC. Among the changes he made were to double the amount of oxygen that the bombers carried, having measure the increased breathing rates when under stress.

One report had him, when flying as rear gunner on a Wellington, opening fire on a German Hospital. When another crew member questioned the ethics of this engagement Winfield replied that the b******s had fired on him when driving an ambulance in France and he was perfectly legal as he had slipped his Red Cross armband on before pressing the trigger.

There are many stories of his wonderful mixture of eccentricity, bravery and determination and he was the author of a book called "The Sky belongs to them".

[Brian 48nav]

Bob,
Did you mean to say 'Mike Bradshaw' or should it have been Bagshaw?

All the best, Brian W

PS Are you going to the 'Farewell to the C130K' bash at Brize on Nov'; 8th?

[chevvron]

The first aircraft I flew where I could actually handle the controls was a piston Provost at Rissy in 1962; my pilot was the SMO (can't remember his name).
Naturally I knew Mike Bagshaw; I handled his flights out of Farnborough on many occasions. He would always operate round the Andover area, so when he called for 'immediate return and landing' (ie a technicolour yawn is imminent) before looking at the radar I would say 'steer 090 descend to flight level 50'!
There were often USAF flying doctors attached to IAM. One day, one of these did a PD to Cranwell. Then had a radio fail. Next thing we knew, LATCC phoned us up and asked if we knew the identity of a red and white Hunter over Heathrow at about 5000 ft! He knew where he was at Cranwell and simply returned to Farnborough in a straight line!
Heck of a nice guy he was; he got promoted to full Colonel shortly afterwards and posted back to the US to command a military hospital.
When Mike left the RAF, he became a doctor at the RAE Farnborough medical centre, then became SMO for BA at Heathrow. I think he tried general practice at some time too. He still flies from Blackbushe.

[Lou Scannon]

Sorry Brian, I don't know where the Bradshaw came from (other than the guides)
I meant Mike Bagshaw of course. Delighted to hear he did so well and remains gainfully employed.

At the time Mike was going through the course rumour had it that there had been so many doctors fail the pilot bit they were thinking of getting a couple of fast jet blokes with decent A levels to apply for sponsored medical training.

Won't be able to make the Hercules farewell I'm afraid.

[Dave Sharpe]

I knew of a dentist in the early 80s who was at RAF St Mawgan who had been aircrew (I think a GD(N)) who went off to become a dentist at the RAF's expense-He wore his 'wings'---

[Yellow Sun]

I knew of a dentist in the early 80s who was at RAF St Mawgan who had been aircrew (I think a GD(N)) who went off to become a dentist at the RAF's expense-He wore his 'wings'---

Ex tankertrash Bertie J****, he also spent some time at Kinloss. I still have some of his handiwork in my mouth that has lasted for over 30 years. Not sure whether his dentistry training was at RAF expense or not.

The Pilot Medical Officer (PMO) scheme had a few difficulties in the '70s. There had been a series of failures in training and it was being seriously considered that a qualified pilot be put through medical training of some sort as this might be an easier way to fulfil the requirement. You have to appreciate that posts the PMOs were needed to fill required a good level of flying ability, it was by no means a tick box qualification. However Mike Bagshaw got through and that eased the problem.

YS

[chanter]

The dental officer at Valley around 1985 was a wing commander with pilot's brevet, can remember his name though

[Mushroom_2]

There was an RAF dentist on my JP course at Linton in 1971.

[Union Jack]

There was an RAF dentist on my JP course at Linton in 1971.

Just imagine - he could potentially have become a fang farrier carrier Harrier pilot ....:uhoh:

Jack

[mikebagshaw]

Well I have to confess to lurking and enjoying this thread. Hello guys - and yes, I know who you are!! Just to put the record straight, since World War 2 a small number of RAF docs had been trained to and beyond wings. There were also those GD pilots whose medical degree was just an alternative to a BSc in underwater basket weaving, and very fine Harrier pilots they were too. With the doc flying training failures in the 1970s, an ex-Red Arrows pilot was sent to Oxford to study medicine but quit the course to return to flying (wimp). I passed my chop rides and went on to fly Hunter/Jaguar and then Cranwell QFI. Finished as the medical test pilot at Farnborough. My successor (and the last RAF flying doc) was Graham Cresswell who did his tour on Canberra and Valley QFI, and retired last year as British Midland Airbus captain (and company doc). The breed is no more in the RAF, but the army still trains doctors to wings. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.:rolleyes:

[lightningmate]

Hi Mike,

You forgot to mention that after the Docs all 'wimped out' and departed for pastures more appealing, other stalwarts came along to continue the task :ok:

Not sure how much longer things will continue, almost takes an Act of Parliament to clear a pair of gloves to go flying these days!

lm

[CharlieJuliet]

Hi Mike,
Good to see you're still around, and hopefully fit and flying. Happy memories of EFS and OBOGs and other odd trials. Was there not another flying doc in the 60's called Colin Lamont Smith?