My dilemma

[vegancruiser]

On March 1st this year, at the age of 62, I started flying lessons at the Cornwall Flying Club near Bodmin in south west England. Aircraft have always been a passion of mine, having previously served in the RAF as an engineer, and in 2011 finishing my working life in Germany, working for Airbus. Now that I'm retired I'm realising a lifelong ambition to become a private pilot.

To date I've completed nearly 40 hours of flight training in a Cessna 152 and I've passed all my ground exams, excluding the RT practical. I went solo in June after 24 hours but progress since has been frustratingly slow, due largely to poor weather sabotaging my planned lessons! I'm currently in the circuit consolidation phase of the training, prior to moving on to the navigation exercises. I confess that I haven't found learning to fly as 'easy' as I'd anticipated but nevertheless I'm making progress and I'm keen to complete my PPL training before I get much older!

I've already invested almost £6000 in lessons and equipment and given that my resources aren't limitless, my question is, can anyone recommend a good flying school(s) in France, Spain, Italy etc. where I could complete my training quickly, and hopefully in more consistent weather conditions?

Thanks in advance for any help forthcoming!
Mike

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm not up on schools, but just offering a thought or two.

Much as we might love to believe otherwise - learning to fly (or many other similar skills) gets a lot harder and slower with age. It's nothing to be ashamed of - just how it is. That you doubtless know a huge amount about how aeroplanes work doesn't really change that because it's all about a strange combination of physical and mental skills that is fairly unique to the cockpit environment, and doesn't have a great deal to do with how much you know.


There are plenty of foreign schools out there and doubtless recommendations will come along shortly. Do be aware that experience gained abroad is only partially useable back in blighty - you can doubtless go and get your licence finished off somewhere with good weather (Florida is worth a look, there have always been a few European-approved schools there and I'm sure there still are), but you'll need to do some re-acclimatisation back in good old British weather (and RT, and airport conventions...) once you return. But, with 40 hours done here, and hopefully maintaining reasonable currency, that shouldn't be too much of a problem in your position.

G

[maxred]

Hi, couple of things you did not mention.

Are you with the same instructor, i.e. they don't change on you?
Do you fly the same aeroplane?
Is your time freely available.
Do you spend much time flying with others and learning how they go about it?

When I was learning, there were five elements that conspired to ruin my progress:-
1. Your free time.
2. Aircraft availability.
3. Weather.
4. Instructor availability.
5. Money.

After 15 hours of going nowhere, I gave up on club training, bought my own aeroplane, sought an excellent free lance instructor, and had my PPL within 40 hours.

Now, I understand that not everyone can do that, so......Closely look at why your progress is stalling. Speak with the CFI/Instructor and let them understand your concern. Moving club may not be the correct move, so ask around, look around, and see if any alternatives are there, other than club.

6k, 24 hours going solo, and now at the 40 hour mark, with all exams passed, you should be close to test, but......something aint quite right.

Are you sure it is just weather, and not something else?

One other thing - at 40 hours, you should have done some nav I would have thought

[Johnm]

I'd be inclined to stick it out. I started my PPL in 2000 aged 52 and still in full time employment so it took me around 60 hours and two years to get there in the end, but I really enjoyed the training. Since then I've gained IMCR and night as well as getting retractable sign off and aged 62 I gained a full instrument rating which also took me two years of study and flying.

I'd stick with it here if I were you and enjoy the training. There's no reason why you can't do some journeys with your instructor as a way of doing the NAV exercises.

Good luck and have fun!

[Whirlybird]

I got my PPL(A) in my late 40s after around 90 hours. Like you, I found it much harder than I expected, and it took very much longer than I'd anticipated.

All you wrote sounds fine, except for one thing... Solo at 24 hours, but solo consolidation ever since! No nav, no instrument flying, nothing to give you a change of pace and a break? Weather conspiring against you after a pretty good summer?

It could be just that that's the way things are. However, a change of airfield and/or instructor might just get you out of what sounds like a bit of a rut. I know about those; I got stuck in several of them, and sometimes all that's needed is another point of view.

As Genghis said, learning to fly takes longer when you're older, a little fact I fought hard against, but (with a few lucky exceptions) it's true. But if you're stuck on the same exercise for too long, at any age, something else needs to be tried, not because anything is necessarily wrong, but just because it might help.

[vegancruiser]

"Much as we might love to believe otherwise - learning to fly (or many other similar skills) gets a lot harder and slower with age. It's nothing to be ashamed of - just how it is. That you doubtless know a huge amount about how aeroplanes work doesn't really change that because it's all about a strange combination of physical and mental skills that is fairly unique to the cockpit environment, and doesn't have a great deal to do with how much you know."

Thanks Ghenghis. I've come to accept the "old dogs, new tricks" factor but it's the lack of continuity because of the weather here that's prompted me to think about alternative strategies for completing my PPL. As far as the flying is concerned it's the landings, on grass runways with significant slopes and no longer than 650m that has proved the most difficult for me so far, valuable as this experience is.

"Hi, couple of things you did not mention.

Are you with the same instructor, i.e. they don't change on you?
Do you fly the same aeroplane?
Is your time freely available.
Do you spend much time flying with others and learning how they go about it?"

Thanks Maxred.
1. Yes, I've been predominantly with the same instructor.
2. Yes, I fly the same a/c - Cesnna 152
3. I'm retired and my time is freely available for the flying lessons.
4. Yes, I'm fortunate to fly quite regularly with other club members.

My main frustration is the lack of perceived consistency due to the weather - we,re on the edge of Bodmin moor - and this is why I think it may be sensible to complete my training elsewhere. I know it can take an age to achieve the PPL in the UK because of the weather but, being retired, I have the time to be flexible. Making the best use of this flexibility is my main reason for asking about alternatives.

I should make clear that not all my hours since first solo have been circuit consolidation. When wind conditions have not been favourable for circuits (often the case!), I've done other exercises, such as steep turns, PFL's and a little instrument flying.

[Piper.Classique]

I don't think you have done an excessive amount of consolidation by the sound of it. Bodmin isn't the easiest of airports, especially in the winter. It probably would be reasonable to go somewhere with better weather for a couple of weeks, treat it as a holiday with flying, do some navs solo and dual. No need to go to the USA, if you stay in Europe there are plenty of places with decent weather and English speaking instructors available. Then back home to finish off.
Aim for about fifteen hours, enough that you get the benefit of your trip, including possibly getting used to a new type, but not so much that you are panting to do the skills test.
Remember, it's supposed to be fun.

[funfly]

I started flying at 63 with a 3 axis microlight course in Faro Portugal, You can get quite far in a two week session and two of these sessions should see you with a microlight license.
At least you will be flying and the weather in Portugal is good year round.

Don't dismiss microlight flying, they are great fun. I had a number of group A aircraft after my first microlight but regret to this day that I didn't just keep the X-Air I started with - changed only under pressure from her indoors (cold, draughty etc.)

Not difficult to upgrade to PPL (as I did) when you want to.

FF

[vegancruiser]

I'm really grateful for the help and suggestions I've received so far - thank you!

Yes, learning to fly can be fun indeed and, in my own experience, often is. But, again my experience, it's also hard work which has on occasion resulted in brain overload and the "I've had enough for now" syndrome. As Genghis said ..."it's all about a strange combination of physical and mental skills". Anyway, I digress!

To re-emphasise, I want to get on with my training right now, not next Spring and summer and, if I'm to do this, I clearly see that I need to go somewhere that doesn't suffer from the vagaries of a British winter. Somewhere in the southern hemisphere would not be realistic - I think! - mainly because of the costs involved. This leaves me with locations in Europe with the most reliable weather. France was high on my list of possibilities, with one school in particular of interest to me. Unfortunately the weather there would probably not be reliable enough for me to chose the location I had in mind (Limoges).

It's been suggested to me that I consider Greece, where the weather probably would be ok for me to complete my training. I could also take advantage of easy, cheap flights and maybe accommodation while I'm there. Does anyone have any thoughts to share with me on this, or any other, possibility?

[Genghis the Engineer]

but it's the lack of continuity because of the weather here

That is Britain for you !

When I was doing my CPL, not just PPL, I had 1000ish hours, and my instructor probably treble that.

On one memorable and frustrating occasion we cancelled 7 lessons in a row, 6 for weather and one for some other reason that escapes me now. It will get better as you get more experience, but this sort of thing still happens.

G

[maxred]

Ok, I would suggest that a france and Spain would, at this time of year, be just as unpredictable as the UK, weather wise.

Only decent option would be the States, either Florida, or California.

Intensive 10 day programmes, get it done and dusted. I think that is what you are telling us you want.

So Long Beach, Naples, are the schools I have experience at.

BA will have a seat sale shortly. Why don't you check costs, all related to your experience? It would get the job done.

Naples Air Centre- good rep, UKFT Flight at Long Beach. Here [url=http://www.ukft.com/]

[piperboy84]

As Maxred says Fla or California, are good options, I would also consider more rural areas where you can bang out the pattern work and learning without the hassle of being at or next to big airports with busy GA and commercial traffic. Also, if you don't fancy the school/FBO thing there are plenty one man band CFI,s with there own 172 or pipers where you can get a dedicated plane and one instructors undivided attention. Then maybe finish of with a 3 day American Flyers ground school which is really reasonable and a good way of preparing for the test.

[India Four Two]

vc,

Lots of good advice in the posts above. After looking at Bodmin's details, it seems like a tough place to start your training. I was lucky when I started, by training at White Waltham, which is just a big grass field with runways up to over 3000' long. I would have been a lot more apprehensive staring at Bodmin's short runways while on final.

I would like to encourage you to consider the recommendations to consider the US. Relatively cheap to get to and the extra airfare cost compared to flying to say Greece, will be more than compensated for by the cheaper rental costs and there is a much better chance of good weather in the winter.

My advice would be to treat it as a flying holiday. Don't worry so much about circuit-bashing. Fly something bigger and faster than a 152, plan some cross-countries and learn navigation US-style (VORs, GPS and best of all, radar flight-following). Let the instructor handle some or all of the radio (at least initially) while you concentrate on the flying and navigation.

My preference would be to go to southern California, just for the experience of flying in the Los Angeles basin, including right across the top of LAX and a trip across the sea for lunch at Avalon (the Airport in the Clouds) on Catalina Island. I did that recently and on the way back, we did a visual/ILS approach and touch-and-go at Burbank, in between the Southwest 737s before returning to Van Nuys. All with friendly controllers, including LAX Tower and not a landing-fee in sight!*

If you do that, you'll be much more comfortable and more relaxed in your flying, you'll be better prepared mentally for finishing your PPL, you'll have some lifetime memories and you'll be able bore your friends in the pub and on PPRuNe with your US flying stories. ;)

Just remember to allow for jet-lag on your first few days, particularly if you go to the west coast.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

*PS I forgot that there is a small fee at Avalon to help maintain the privately-run, but quite busy airport.

[Rhino25782]

Hi Mike,

couple of things:

While I would also recommend you to consider the US (do the calculations - the much cheaper hourly rates will offset a large share, if not all, of the additional cost of "getting there" in the first place), this thread creates the impression that you can just fly over there and begin training anywhere you like. That's not the case. First of all, for your UK license, you will need to choose between a small number of UK-CAA authorised schools (I believe 5 are based in Florida, while one is based in Southern California). Also, be aware of the paperwork needed to get your training visa and your TSA clearance. You will probably need to plan 2 months in advance to get this sorted. Having said that, I did my PPL in California in December and January and the weather was superb 99% of the time.

This long thread has all the details regarding training in the US:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/278995-guide-obtaining-jaa-ppl-us-part-1-a.html

This is my own review of what I did:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/506849-heres-current-review-american-aviation-academy-san-diego.html

Finally, if you're looking into Spain, there is "Fly in Spain" in Jerez, which was also on the top of my list before I went to California. There is a recent review of that school to be found here:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/525706-fly-spain-jerez-personal-review-ppl-training.html

Good luck with any path you choose!

[vegancruiser]

Wow! thanks for all the great advice on which to base my decision, guys!

I confess I hadn't seriously considered the USA after reading about all the bureaucracy involved but, following the advice here, I'm going to look very closely at this option.

Rhino 25782, do you have more information about the UK-CAA authorised school in Southern California that you mentioned?

EDIT: I guess it's UK Flight Training in Long Beach?

Mike

[Rhino25782]

EDIT: I guess it's UK Flight Training in Long Beach?

No, it's American Aviation Academy.

Full review here: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/506849-heres-current-review-american-aviation-academy-san-diego.html

If you have any more specific questions, feel free to ask!

Btw. if you go for it, you might consider getting more value for money by also completing your night rating overseas! I ran out of time and otherwise would have done it.

Cheers

Patrick

[krankyd]

I thought about doing my PPL abroad where the weather was kinder, but I decided against this for a couple of reasons.

I didn't want to just learn in perfect, sunny conditions and then come back here to be flying in the usual mucky weather. I spent most of my circuit lessons in crosswind and I don't bat an eyelid about it anymore. In the UK you'll still be in marginal weather a lot of the time

I also wanted to do my PPL in one of the most congested air corridor's in the UK, transiting past luton, stanstead, heathrow, gatwick all the time. Now it's second nature and I have no issues doing this on a regular basis. Flying in empty airspace now is a joy, but I'm used to much tighter spaces as part of the course.

[mary meagher]

good morning vegancruiser....

The best advice in this thread, as so frequently occurs, was that given by Ghengis....

I started flying at the age of 50, in gliders, and figured I better get on with it before the final curtain came down! so been flying ever since, and have the PPL, IR, bells and whistles and 3,000 hours.

So true, that the older you get the more your learning curve turns into a flat line! I have had to suggest to some enthusiastic students over 60 that perhaps it is best just to enjoy flying dual!

But you want to get the ticks in the boxes, best suggestion is to go to the US of A. Florida is great, but avoid being near Orlando, heavy heavy traffic of heavies overhead, I just flew at Kissimmee a couple of weeks ago, and their patterns (circuits) are fairly restricted because of all the jets winging into Orlando.....

ALSO, BEWARE! Never but never part with your money all at once. Flight schools have a long history of going belly up, and they love to get a wad of cash up front. Pay as you fly...it may save you big bucks in the long run.

[vegancruiser]

Thank you all for taking the time to offer me such great advice. It's good to get differing opinions based on people's own experiences.

Since I last posted I've managed another 36 mins solo time, bringing my P1 grand total to 1 hr 48 mins! Regardless of which way I proceed, there is one thing I'm convinced of and that is, learning to fly at Bodmin with its short uneven grass strips would ultimately make me a more accomplished, safer pilot, sooner. This is not to detract at all from the skills of pilots who've carried out their training exclusively from conventional runways and who will probably adapt to grass later. It's just a case of 'doing it the hard way' which, in itself, may be a disadvantage for someone like myself who has found the landings especially demanding. I set high - and perhaps unrealistic! - targets for myself and on times I've felt very discouraged. I know I'm not alone in feeling this way when learning to fly and with dedication, I know I'll get there.

In the light of the advice given here, I'm now considering my next move. My current feeling is that I'll either persevere with Bodmin and its weather, or go somewhere in southern Europe to finish my PPL. Taking the USA route is very, very appealing - especially in California! - and I'm making enquiries, but I have to say I'm discouraged by the amount of red tape involved.

[vegancruiser]

"I have had to suggest to some enthusiastic students over 60 that perhaps it is best just to enjoy flying dual!"

Now THAT makes depressing reading!

[funfly]

"I have had to suggest to some enthusiastic students over 60 that perhaps it is best just to enjoy flying dual!"

B*llocks

[maxred]

So true, that the older you get the more your learning curve turns into a flat line! I have had to suggest to some enthusiastic students over 60 that perhaps it is best just to enjoy flying dual!

Utter drivel. Almost as bad as when I suggested to my 59 year old mother that all people aged 60 should have a mandatory euthanasia pill.

She has only recently started talking to me again.

[Crash one]

Absolute garbage.
I started PPL at the age of 66. Completed 1year later after 60 hours.Now fly my own Permit taildragger. & I take 6 pills every day prescribed by Cardiology. Not that that has much to do with it.

[mary meagher]

Ooo....touched a nerve, did we? Truth hurts. There are those who persevere despite dwindling brain capacity, and those who refuse to face facts. Facts, alas, often show up in the AAIB reports, which usually include the age of the pilot concerned.

[Desert185]

Ooo....touched a nerve, did we? Truth hurts. There are those who persevere despite dwindling brain capacity, and those who refuse to face facts. Facts, alas, often show up in the AAIB reports, which usually include the age of the pilot concerned.


Ooo....you don't want to hear my age and what I am flying. Different truth. Sorry.

[mary meagher]

OK, guys. First of all let me clarify some points.

Any instructor will no doubt have encountered senior hopefuls, and I rather think that their comments might be illuminating.

If you learned to fly between the ages of 16 and 25, you enjoyed a learning curve like the profile of Mt. Everest....it is downright indecent how fast young people absorb the skills. The good news is no matter how many years have passed since you went solo as a kid, it is like riding a bicycle. It is never forgotten.

Also, if you have been a sailor or an aircraft engineer, even if never having flown in a previous existence, there is a basic foundation that sometimes surprises our expectations. I flew with an old boy of 80 plus, he surprised me until he confessed he had as an engineer modified spitfires AND flown in them as an observer back in the 40's. Yes, he went solo, and delighted in flying aerobatics.

But the older person, particularly one who has been successful in business and now expects to buy the equivalent of a BMW and drive it around the sky in order to fly himself to his next meeting, may not find it easy to learn.

And I hope that all you old farts out there still flying will be willing to do the decent thing, as I had to do two years ago, and step down from instructing and flying solo when it becomes appropriate. Not an easy thing to do. But liberating. Anything goes wrong now, it's not my fault!

[vegancruiser]

"And I hope that all you old farts out there still flying will be willing to do the decent thing, as I had to do two years ago, and step down from instructing and flying solo when it becomes appropriate"

...yes, forgive me Mary, but you're 80 and I'm a mere lad of 62! :)

[Desert185]

OK, I'll buy that. :ok:

[Crash one]

Mary, for once you may have something. I went solo first time round at 16 in a T21 circa 56 Then after a life of RN then work etc solo again T21 circa 84, Cessna150 solo, 86. Second mortgage----- solo Cessna152, 2006, GST 2007.Four times exercise 14, is that allowed? Try telling an instructor, "I've done ex 14 already".
Anyway don't knock the old farts there's more brain power there than you might think.
Men in white coats will have to drag me out of my a/c.

[piperboy84]

Funny thing aging, I learned to fly at 30, and whether its flying, fixing the landy driving a car, or even remembering where I put my keys I have many what i call "CRAFT MOMENTS"

Someone once said to me, If you keep losing your keys that's OK, but if you find them but can't remember what there for, then you have a problem

[Whirlybird]

I remember an enthusiastic student aged....about half of 60....who would probably have been better off enjoying flying dual :ugh: And some of 60+ who were pretty good.

People age at different rates, and have different aptitude (or lack of it) and brain capacity to start with.

[Pace]

Age is just a number I know of very unfit 40 yr olds with heart decease.
One of my best friends had such an enthusiasm for life and such a passion for flying that in the last two years of his life he completed 30 ferries all over the world one in a Cessna 340 twin was from Florida to India. Most were old Piper singles or Cessna 172s.

He was on the phone very day with this idea or that idea and a boyish excitement about possible trips or work.

Sadly He iced up in a 172 in Canada and was killed.

He was 78 years of age when this accident occurred

if you want to be old and act old then so be it! Sit in front of the fire with a blanket over your legs thinking about your next trip to the Doctor or what medications you need to take. Join the waiting for God Club!!!

I would rather be like my old friend still with a passion and zest where age is just a number.

Pace

[mary meagher]

Dear Old Friend Pace....(or young, as the case may be!)

The example of your best friend with passion for life and still flying cross oceans with boyish excitement "iced up in a 172 in Canada and was killed...he was 78 years of age when this accident occurred"

Dear Pace, don't you see this EXACTLY proves my point? I am just happy that your friend didn't take some innocent passenger with him when he iced up.
I do not choose to endanger anyone else now that I am of mature and still sensible years, and aware that I am more likely to trip up at my age than a younger person.

This does not mean I have stopped flying.

I have simply stepped down from flying PIC.

[Crash one]

I'm afraid Mary, that that does not exactly prove the point. The man died because the aircraft iced up, not because he was 78. Which it looks like you are suggesting.And as far as stopped flying goes, if you are not P1 then you are a passenger.

[cockney steve]

I'm afraid Mary, that that does not exactly prove the point. The man died because the aircraft iced up, not because he was 78.

The fact that he survived 78 years means he was well aware and Compos Mentis. As a long-lived, long-experienced pilot, He'd have been well -aware of what constituted "Icing-conditions"
He had a "Senior Moment" which threw all that knowledge out of the window and his life and the aircraft with it.

A younger, mor alert, more aware man may well have picked -up on the icing-scenario and survived.

Bob-on, Mary, and:ok: to you. a safe and responsible Flyer, long may you indulge!

[Pace]

Mary

He was quite a bit more than 20 years older than me you can have best friends with a large age span my present girlfriend is quite a bit more than 20 years younger than me ;)

that is my point age is just a number its more to do with someones spirit and passion.

Obviously you can be a physical wreck but I know plenty in their late 30s or early 40s who fit that category and should not be flying.
The Key is having a passion, the right attitude and a good set of genes as well as having a rebellious streak and a bit of colour :ok:


younger, more alert, more aware man may well have picked -up on the icing-scenario and survived

Steve

Sorry I know a lot of detail of this crash it was not age related a flaw in his character maybe which lead him to do something inadvisable but then having lost 7 friends to aviation of a broad age span 99% of crashes are pilot error and pilot error covers the whole age span. If anything the older pilots are more cautious and aware of their limitations my friend an old pilot was a bit lacking in the cautious department and I say that as a compliment to his spirit.

Get home Itis is one of the worst and that played a large part in my friends tragic accident as well as some ferry factors which I will not get into but also not age related.

Pace

[Desert185]

Dear Old Friend Pace....(or young, as the case may be!)

The example of your best friend with passion for life and still flying cross oceans with boyish excitement "iced up in a 172 in Canada and was killed...he was 78 years of age when this accident occurred"

Dear Pace, don't you see this EXACTLY proves my point? I am just happy that your friend didn't take some innocent passenger with him when he iced up.
I do not choose to endanger anyone else now that I am of mature and still sensible years, and aware that I am more likely to trip up at my age than a younger person.

This does not mean I have stopped flying.

I have simply stepped down from flying PIC.


Everyone has different limitations, which are not totally based on age. The key is realizing them.

I know someone considerably less elderly than me with a 180. He has done major damage twice (that I know of) to his airplane. I have 46+ plus years in aviation (including 13 years flying a 185 in the backcountry) without a violation, accident or an incident...and I know many like me. There is more to being proficient and safe than being young...and I have the recent training, checkrides and peer/crewmember scrutiny to prove it.

Please don't blanket denigrate pilots solely because of age.

[Whirlybird]

To repeat myself, since so many people weren't listening...

PEOPLE AGE AT VERY, VERY DIFFERENT RATES.

(and in this context, I think some are born old)

[Crash one]

They do, I remember a mate of mine in the Navy at the age of 23 having a pair of slippers!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm sure any convenient issue of the AAIB red-tops will also show plenty of instances of young pilots messing up and breaking aeroplanes.

G

[Pace]

G

Yes plenty you only have to look at car insurance and young drivers to realise that. Under 21 they are almost guaranteed to crash cars especially the guys!!!

21 to 25 no insurance on high performance machines! up to 30 forget it on super cars so while they might have fractionally faster reactions they are more likely to get into accident situations,

Pace

[cockney steve]

Friends, We're not arguing specifics we're generalising
So, Young, testosterone -fuelled males are likely to succumb to the results of inexperience+bravado.
old people suffer diminished mental and physical faculties.

As for me, i'm a 20 year old trapped in a 66- year old body....It'd be OK without the poor eyesight, reduced frequency-response and odd aches and pains.
@Pace.... Sorry the victim was a personal friend, it makes it that much harder to bear the loss....the one thing that age brings, is experience and if, as you say, he chose to ignore life's lessons he paid for that error dearly.
I can still chuck a car around with abandon, reactions are slower, but experience carries the day....the same with many other skills involving both mental and physical dexterity......but I'm appreciably slower than I was in my prime. However much I wish it wasn't so, facts is facts....statistically I'm a coffin dodger in practice, I hope to continue bearing younger bodies to the bone-orchard.:\

[vegancruiser]

To get back to my dilemma :) ...

I understand that there are certain flying clubs/schools in the USA that are approved by the CAA to issue EASA licences directly (i.e. without having to convert from FAA licence to EASA on returning to the UK). Does anyone know where I can find a list of these training organisations? At the moment my preference would be to complete my training in California, and preferably in a rural environment. I've tried asking the question directly to the CAA but the guy could only point me in the direction of their general E-mail address. I would like to be armed with this - official - information before spending time contacting individual flying clubs/schools.

EDIT: Rhino25782 Has already mentioned one such school in California - American Aviation Academy, but I was hoping to find a school in a more rural location, at a much less busy airfield.

[Prop swinger]

Read this page from EASA's website:
EASA - FCL Organisations Approvals (http://www.easa.europa.eu/approvals-and-standardisation/organisation-approvals/FCL-organisations-approvals.php)

[vegancruiser]

Thanks Prop swinger, that's exactly what I was looking for.

[Rhino25782]

Interesting! I was inclined to say apart from AAA in California, all other EASA-approved FTOs in the US would be in Florida. Now I see there's one in Delaware.. It only looks marginally more rural though and I'd be a little worried about the "constant good weather" prospect thereabouts...

[vegancruiser]

Update:

ok, since I want to complete my PPL training by the end of this year I've discounted the USA route, due to the - very! - prolonged application process.

I've reduced my options to three choices - Fly-in-Spain in Jerez, Egnatia Aviation in Greece, or somewhere else in the UK where the weather is not so regularly poor as on Bodmin moor in Cornwall! Both the overseas organisations have been forthcoming with information as requested.

All my training to date has been on the Cessna 152 and F-i-S can offer me a 150 , whereas Egnatia operate more modern Diamond aircraft, so I'd need to adapt to a new type.

Any further thoughts and/or advice before I make my final decision, anyone?

[FANS]

Why hurry to complete your training by end of the year?

I would restart in Spring at a nearby airfield with tarmac. Learning to fly on grass runways in the UK is a waste of time as it's another thing to stop you.

Also choose an instructor you really get on with, this is meant to be fun and learning to fly at a fast track overseas place can be a disaster - what if you don't get on with instructor/school etc.

If however you just want to get your license ASAP and the experience of the journey doesn't matter then maybe go overseas, but it's another complication learning to fly where there's pigeon English, everything done intensively etc, and then relearning local procedures and airfields when it comes to the small matter of actually flying post PPL studies. It's also social.

Apologies - haven't read other posts!

[Cusco]

FANS is right: you're nearly at the end of the year now with all the bu ggering about on here.

Why not save your money and wait till next spring?

You'll spend more getting used to a new type if you go to Greece anyway.

Or maybe we'll have a mild winter: I did my entire PPL age 48 from start to finish in 6 months in UK from Nov 92 to April 93 in East Anglia and all flights bar 4 were off grass.

Cusco

[mary meagher]

Hello again vegan....

I can't help thinking the best way for you to progress would be to book a week's intensive course, where they speak your language; stay on or near the site. Can't help thinking the eastern side of the UK may have more stable weather, and flying in cold weather is good for performance (as far as the aircraft is concerned, anyhow).

January or February may be the best time. nearer the equinox, the weather gets unreliable again.

Choose airfield with tarmac runways, perhaps a place like Northampton Sywell. And an organisation that runs the good old Cessna 152; as Teddy Roosevelt remarked, don't change horses in midstream.....

[vegancruiser]

"Hello again vegan....

I can't help thinking the best way for you to progress would be to book a week's intensive course, where they speak your language; stay on or near the site. Can't help thinking the eastern side of the UK may have more stable weather, and flying in cold weather is good for performance (as far as the aircraft is concerned, anyhow).

January or February may be the best time. nearer the equinox, the weather gets unreliable again.

Choose airfield with tarmac runways, perhaps a place like Northampton Sywell. And an organisation that runs the good old Cessna 152; as Teddy Roosevelt remarked, don't change horses in midstream....."

Thanks Mary. I've been thinking exactly along the lines you've outlined and this option of the three I'm considering is currently my favourite, for all the reasons you've mentioned.

[Pace]

Or maybe we'll have a mild winter: I did my entire PPL age 48 from start to finish in 6 months in UK from Nov 92 to April 93 in East Anglia and all flights bar 4 were off grass.

Cusco

I took a year almost to the day to get my PPL but I know of one guy who did zero to PPL in 3 weeks in the UK :ok:

Myself? a Holiday in Greece flying sounds a lot more fun than stooging around in the grey and cold winter days even in east England :ugh:

Pace

[FANS]

That's just it. Learning to fly abroad intensively is not a holiday. In fact, it's a misery for all involved trying to get a PPL ASAP.

[Rhino25782]

I think this is very personal.

Learning to fly abroad intensively is not a holiday.Yes, it is. ;-) In any case, my intensive course abroad was probably one of the best times in my life and I certainly regard it as a holiday/adventure kind of thing. It obviously isn't the same as a beach-side resort all-in type of vacation.

In fact, it's a misery for all involved trying to get a PPL ASAP.Challenge - yes. Misery? No.

[FANS]

WHen all someone wants is a PPL before their flight home in 3 weeks, it's a nightmare.

[Arclite01]

From what I have heard from people doing the 3 weeks courses they are far from a holiday. Actually they sounded like hell with long lectures, ground school, homework plus flying in high temperature and high humidity climates.

most said that although they got a licence at the end, it was far from an enjoyable experience - which I feel it ought to be (considering the cost)

I wouldn't tell Vegan not to do it but just be aware it may be high pressure and not necessarily fun !!

Arc

[Rhino25782]

Two things to add here:

Vegancruiser is not an ab initio student looking to complete the entire course in 3 weeks.

Generally, I don't know where the three weeks sneaked into the discussion. From pedestrian to PPL in three weeks is certainly not a walk in the park, but in all fairness, if you add another week or so, it's both doable and enjoyable. That's based on my experience.

[FANS]

Look Rhino, describing intensive PPL courses in 3-4 weeks as a holiday is not helpful and gives totally the wrong impression.

[Pace]

Holiday is not a good description but it's far nicer to sit in the sun over a coffee reading your study material in the warmth and it's also nice to know someone will not tell you to forget flying tomorrow because the weather is forecast to be rubbish!
I renew my type rating every year in Florida much nicer at the end of the day to take a dip in the swimming pool or sit around the swimming pool in the evening with a drink and your study material!

Pace