Plane crashes in Marchovelette (Belgium): several dead

[rp122]

From Google translate -

"An aircraft which were several people who would parachute crashed Saturday afternoon Marchovelette (Fernelmont, province of Namur), said firefighters Namur. The floor of Namur will descend on the scene. There would be no survivors. Several media evoke a dozen deaths. Namur firefighters were called shortly before 16h. Eghezée firefighters are also on hand. It would be a plane that had left the airfield Temploux. The plane would hit no home ground. The prosecutor does not want to provide more for now."

Source: Un avion s?écrase à Marchovelette: plusieurs morts | Fil info Belgique - lesoir.be (http://www.lesoir.be/343687/article/actualite/fil-info/fil-info-belgique/2013-10-19/un-avion-s-ecrase-marchovelette-plusieurs-morts)

BBC breaking news -

BBC News - Belgian plane crash 'kills 10' near Namur (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24595694)

"According to the mayor of Fernelmont, Jean-Claude Nihoul, it is still very difficult to understand what happened, but a witness has reported a wingtip would have separated from the aircraft in flight . "Three or four paratroopers have tried to open a parachute, but it was too late," says Jean-Claude also Nihoul."

Source (and two photos) - Un avion de tourisme s'écrase à Marchovelette, au moins dix morts - RTBF Regions (http://www.rtbf.be/info/regions/detail_un-avion-de-tourisme-s-ecrase-a-marchovelette-plusieurs-victimes?id=8116513)

[DIBO]

Seems to involve this Turbo Porter Photo Search Results | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=OO-NAC). RIP

[Kerosene Kraut]

Don't know this plane. But parachute a/c (at other places) seem to be treated quite brutal sometimes. With steepest descends, overtaking the free falling jumpers, and macho style violent (aerobatic) maneuvers. How many operators might risk early fatigue this way?

[9gmax]

Aircraft in question was registered OO-NAC (serial 107) Build in 1969, used as HB-FFP till 1984 as cropsprayer, from 1985 till 1989 used in Angola for the Red Cross. Upon return in 1989 sold to Belgium and used for skydivers, registered OO-FWJ. Crashlanded and severely damaged in 2000 in Moorsele (EBMO). Rebuild and sold again to Switzerland, then in 2003 returned to Belgium and registered as OO-NAC. Several witnesses saw the aircraft spiraling down with the right wing missing.....(to be taken with caution, not yet confirmed..) Sad day for skydiving...

[bigoil]

there is a yearly SB for eddy current inspection on the upper strut to wing attach fitting.

[roulishollandais]

Once more the old crash scenario in skydiving community... : :(
The head of the jumping center asks the pilot to descend so quickly as possible, spiraling with high bank over VNE, and to accept more persons per stick that allowed, and after some crashes anybody takes the parts with help of any secret service in war regions , another builds one aircraft with the parts of two or more, fake certifications, etc... etc...Regulator knows but seems blind, air police never look where they know they have to look, etc. etc...
So often seen...

[Coquelet]

After its crash in 2000, the aircraft was rebuilt at the Pilatus Flugzeugwerke in 2002, and registered HB-FFP.

[172510]

Another possible scenario is a loss of control in the clouds followed by a structural failure.
A loss of control in the clouds followed by a spin, evacuation of most of the skydivers, and eventually by a recovery happened in France last year on a PC6.
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2012/f-hm120609/pdf/f-hm120609.pdf(French Only)
Sometimes, pilots fly, even when weather conditions are not acceptable, in the hope to keep their jobs, we've all seen that.
Anyway I'm just speculating, the report will be posted here (http://www.mobilit.belgium.be/fr/transport_aerien/accidents/)(reports are drawn up in English in Belgium) in several months.

[NutLoose]

If that is indeed the serial No then this does not appear to effect it


http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/easa_ad_2013_0115_E.pdf/EAD_2013-0115-E_1

[Bralo20]

This plane wasn't indeed covered in the latest EAD but it is covered in another active AD for the PC-6 which requires mandatory (yearly) inspections for corrosion, wear and cracks to the wings / wing strut fitting:

http://t.co/dqeSxjxn2z

[JW411]

172150:

"Anyway, I'm just speculating"

You are indeed. He didn't need to "save his job". He already had a proper job and was flying for fun.

[9gmax]

@ 172510 : I live 25km from the crashsite and can confirm cloud(base) was not a factor, wx was fine, not yet CAVOK but close to it, very thin layer of cloud around 5000', hardly any wind, good visibility.... The pilot was a professional (cargo) airline pilot.... More and more reports are coming in that (part of) the right wing seperated inflight and that the aircraft spiralled down (from around FL110 accdg to latest rumours...- to be confirmed!)

[captplaystation]

If the separation occurred at FL110 or thereabouts, are we to assume that the g forces were violent enough that nobody could jump out, as surely it would have been better to risk striking the airframe than to stay onboard a crippled aircraft. . . . unless the pilot thought for some of the descent that he had retained a modicum of control.

[nitpicker330]

In my limited experience as a jump Pilot 25 years ago, the first sign of trouble above 1000' and the jumpers would be out the door.......

If this happened at 11,000' and none jumped out there would be a good reason stopping them.

They would have jumped if they could have.

[effortless]

Partially opened canopies reported.

[windowjob]

In an in flight emergency at altitude, the parachutists would normally wait for the pilot to tell them to leave (don't want to make handling issues worse by suddenly changing c.of g unexpectedly). But if it becomes obvious is catastrophic then they will go without being told.
Only problem is, it is VERY difficult to get up off the floor, move and get out of a plane when there are any G forces.

Just because an aircraft is being flown outside what is "normally" seen doesn't mean it's being abused. Steep descents/spirals done within limits by an experienced pilot can be spectacular - and perfectly safe.

[LCYslicker]

Some commentary in newspaper that the problem was around 10,000ft, en-route for jump altitude at 15k. Two things from that, if true.
1. Door on PC6 would be closed for the climb. It is a big door, and hard to get that open if a/c is unstable and there are consequent G forces. Looks like they did get it open eventually, but it must have taken a long time and hence too low to get out and deploy before the ground.
2. If WX not an issue, then a/c unlikely to be under any stress in the climb, making cause of separation of the wing really perplexing.

[9gmax]

@ effortless : partially opened canopies seems to be (accdg to first indications) due to "automatic opening by barometric computer/safety system built into modern parachutes)
High rate of descent of the acft explains open canopies...

[J.O.]

If there is an inherent weakness in part of the structure then it doesn't always require exceptional loading to cause a failure. It can (and does) happen in straight and level 1 g flight.

[maxed-out]

Partially deployed canopies probably implies the reserve canopies opened as a result of the Automatic Activation Device firing; basically a ballistic charge firing a cutter to open the reserve. Commonly set for 750 feet above the ground for experienced jumpers which is 3 seconds from impact in a belly down position.

I disagree with the comment above. An aircraft can lose a wing in straight and level flight. Look at what happened to Chalks Ocean Airways....

Sad day for skydiving and very worrying.

[rp122]

"I just saw a plane lose its right wing in mid-flight and crash. I heard a massive 'bang' towards the south of Marchovelette," one witness told Belgian television.


BBC News report with pictures and video.

BBC News - Belgian plane crash 'kills 10' near Namur (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24595694)

[roulishollandais]

Always more and more jumpers in the Pilatus PC6 : 6,7,8,10, an d now 11 !!

[Lone_Ranger]

People are fatter than they've ever been also

[Nil defects]

AD No.: 2007- 0241R4 for Pilatus PC-6

Findings of corrosion, wear and cracks in the upper wing strut fittings on some
PC-6 aircraft have been reported in the past. It is possible that the spherical
bearing of the wing strut fittings installed in the underwing can be loose in the
fitting or cannot rotate because of corrosion. In this condition, the joint cannot
function as designed and fatigue cracks may then develop. Undetected cracks, wear and/or corrosion in this area could cause failure of the upper attachment fitting, leading to failure of the wing structure and subsequent loss of control of the aircraft.
To address this problem, FOCA published AD TM-L Nr. 80.627-6 / Index 72-2
and HB-2006-400 and EASA published AD 2007-0114 to require specific
inspections and to obtain a fleet status. Since the issuance of AD 2007-0114,
the reported data proved that it was necessary to establish and require
repetitive inspections.
EASA published Emergency AD 2007-0241-E to extend the applicability and to
require repetitive eddy current and visual inspections of the upper wing strut
fitting for evidence of cracks, wear and/or corrosion and examination of the...

I wonder if this AD was done??

There was another PC6 in 2008 that also lost a wing.

[gijoe]

'Divers will generally try to get out if there is a problem and they have 1000 feet. As said above, this might not be possible with only one wing. They also generally have little respect for the aircraft - the ride up is an embuggerance. :rolleyes:

Like others have already said, these aircraft are often old and are pushed to the limits - I don't know about the 'beyond' VNE bit but certainly 'at' - and I am surprised this sort of thing doesn't happen more often.

[dadai]

In the similar 2008 crash in Spain where a wing was lost the crash report indicates that the doors of the plane flew open and the parachutists that survived were thrown out by the centrifugal force of the rapidly rotating plane, they did not jump out on their own accord. It seems likely that it would be very difficult to leave such a situation voluntarily due to the G forces.

[F-16GUY]

I wonder if the twist that the plane must have experienced after the loss of the wing, could have bent the rear part of the fuselage in a way so that the doors was jammed in the closed position.:uhoh:

[Krapula]

@ gijoe (but not only)
I' m wondering wich kind of datas do you have to substain that PC-6 descents are performed at VNe :ugh:

[gijoe]

Who said anything about PC-6 data at VNE? :ugh:

Not me! :ugh:

...But I would bow to your obvious great knowledge on all matters such...:ugh:

G :ugh:

[totolariko]

Who said anything about PC-6 data at VNE? :ugh:

Not me! :ugh:

...But I would bow to your obvious great knowledge on all matters such...:ugh:
Got the chance to follow a descent in that same aircraft after dropping few divers.
Never went past any limit even though in my humble career I''ve never seen anything like this!

Most (if not all) the pilots of this aircraft are well trained professionals dropping for fun during week-ends. They would not destroy the tool that makes their joy during their days OFF.

Always more and more jumpers in the Pilatus PC6 : 6,7,8,10, an d now 11 !! 10 jumpers, 1 pilot, get informed before you start shouting...
As long as the MTOW, MLW and CG are properly respected...

[TylerMonkey]

Always more and more jumpers in the Pilatus PC6 : 6,7,8,10, an d now 11 !!

We jumped ten out of them in the 1970's ( Helio Stallion ) regularly in Florida.
If it's over the max weight limit then I can see your point... otherwise ?

[Lone_Ranger]

Thing is, people have got bigger, I'm not saying they were all big blokes in this instance, but don't discount the possibility.

10 big blokes by todays standards, chutes and a moderate fuel load could easily see a pc6 overweight

[TylerMonkey]

Company brochure specs for Turbo Porter lists ten parachutists and freight load of 2200 lbs.
( also lists 9 seatbelts for jumpers . . . strange ?? )

https://aerospaceblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/pilatus-aircraft-ltd-pc-6.pdf

The gear today is MUCH lighter / smaller than 1970's when we had first gen piggyback rigs, and jumpers were just as porky then as today.

I would bet we were maxed out more often than todays loads at a guess.

.

[roulishollandais]

We jumped ten out of them in the 1970's ( Helio Stallion ) regularly in FloridaIn France things seem to have been different : in 1973 I jumped from the PC6 with 6 POB (pilot, instructor, 4 jumpers). Later they were 7 and then 8 POB. I listened about 10 POB, and now we have 11 POB (the pilot has a chute too...).
It is not only a matter of weight, but on number of heads for insurance.

$$$ Dropping managment depends much more of descending speed than climbing speed...

About VNE+ please don't ask me names...:mad:

[Kim Jong Il]

Roulis please...

You might be right with your VNE+ but at this moment you are still only assuming so please don't act like you know exactly what happened..

Dropping managment depends much more of descending speed than climbing speed...
1. I have to meet the first DZ boss that tells me to descent faster. Usually it is the other way around. Their main priority is to keep the plane in a safe and good condition.
2. By flying the proper climb speed you can win MUCH more TIME and FUEL than descending faster. With descending you could maybe win a mere 30 seconds. With climbing you could win minutes on each load...

[Vilters]

By flying proper climb speed you can win minutes on each climb.
These minutes you consume "climb power" fuel consumption. (High)

On a decend, the power is at idle and you can "win" some "idle time" fuel consumption. (Low)

[roulishollandais]

A) Money
The money to save when you are dropping is not only for fuel consumption, but price of time in flight in the logbook.

Which rules apply if the jumping center association is not the owner of the aircraft (which was the case in Belgium) ?

B) Technic
1. A quick climbing is learned during commercial pilot using best Vertical speed.

2. A level flight exists then where you can win 3 minutes or more if you are not on axis and have to come back.. : Untaught is the path to get around 10 seconds (point A) and not 3 minutes (point B) on axis before the dropping point. Two factors have to be managed :
2.1 Reaching the dropping level at the good position (point A) heading as mandated (mostly headwind) at the dropping speed with stabilized power.
2.2 Knowing where the dropping point is at the first flight when you have no clouds, climbing smokes, etc. only Met wind forecast. Every pilot has his technic to limit the level flight duration (see point 4)

3. The descent technic is only transmitted by rumors, the head of the Drop Center says very hypocriticaly "do as for yourself..." but starts the chronometer ! I mostly chosed to roll as soon the jumpers have leaved, avoiding them, and dive so much as possible. Someone - not me ! - are using the margin over VNE before constant deformation - twisted aircrafts exist!! -, or don't respect low level turbulence - not me -. The aircraft flies toward a short final near of the waiting next stick climbing quickly in the aircraft without stopping engine(s) and preparing and checking it for next take-off.

4. A mainlevel flight is often omitted (around 6 minutes) : The official and only technic taught to French professional parachutists (holding the validated DGAC license) uses two sickys.
You -the pilot - fly assumed headwind at the dropping altitude/height/level with stabilized dropping speed and power. You inform then the jumping instructor/leader you allow him dropping. At any moment you remain the captain of the flight, you respect the rules, and may stop the dropping.
The jumping instructor/leader (waering his chute) using the first sicky, oppens the door, puting and keeping the whole head outside in the wind and watching the altitude on his own altimeter, the landing point and the aircraft ground course and eventual drift, he asks eventual corrections left (turning left and right) or right (turning right and left) he throws firmly the first sticky passing exactly overhead the landing point without asking to "cut" the power, following the slowly descending sticky by the eyes until it is on the ground. Then the jumping leader estimates the drift distance of the sicky and report the distance from the landing point in the opposite direction to reckon the presumed dropping point. You the pilot did already a first 180° turn and are informed the assumed position of the dropping point, fly downind until abeam that point, continue 10+ seconds and do the second 180° turn (same sense).
The jumping instructor head outside on the door with the second sicky asks you eventual corrections and throws the "corrected sicky" overhead the reckoned drop point, follows it by eyes until the ground not far from the landing point, notices an ultimate correction translated to the dropping point.
You are now ready to drop your jumpers or freight.

C) Safety improvement
As about the sharing pedals technic (AA587), or fake documents, dangerous technics are used unsaid, and need better regulation.

[Belgianboy]

I don't know if it helps.

1. The aircraft was not owned by the parachute club but by a separate company.(Namur Air Promotion)

2. The sliding door on the right side of the cabin fell in flight before the crash and seemed undamaged on the photographs.

3. The outer part of the right wing was sheared in way of the inner end (fuselage side) of the aileron which remained attached to the broken wing section.

Willy