Firemen to get better pension terms than Military.

[Onceapilot]

Will our VSO's fight for similar terms? They must!
Firemen are to avoid the "delayed pension trap" in their new terms with an agreement that firemen unfit to continue in service below age 60 will be retired on full pension. Service chiefs MUST fight for these terms in the new pension!
Did you know, Police terms include a 4X pension tax-free lump sum on the basis (fought by their chiefs) that they are employed in a dangerous job?
Service VSO's must fight NOW for better terms for servicemen!

OAP

[Herc-u-lease]

And what contributions of their salary do they make and are expected to make? I know our pay is technically abated, but in reality I don't see a monthly deduction.

AFPS 15 is a definite erosion of terms, but to start asking for exact parity with other services is a slippery slope.

[MightyGem]

Police pay 12% in pension contributions(unless it's changed recently).

[Onceapilot]

Service pay is abated similar amount to Police "contributions". The "non-contribution" lie for service pay pensions was a fudge to bamboozle service Chiefs (and service personel generally) that the service pension was as good a deal as the Police deal:oh:!

OAP

[Just This Once...]

Did you know, Police terms include a 4X pension tax-free lump sum on the basis (fought by their chiefs) that they are employed in a dangerous job?

No but I did know AFPS05 and AFPS15 provide the same 4x lump sum.

I'm on AFPS75 so currently pay an AVC to achieve 4x rather than 3x.

[Onceapilot]

AFPS 05 pays 3X pension lump-sum.

OAP

[Just This Once...]

Sorry, I presumed we were talking DIS, given the 'danger' connotation.

[Advisor 7]

As someone who served in the RAF and then the Police I can see both sides of the pension issue. The current contributions for police officers depend on their length of service but the majority pay 13.5% which will rise again in March 2014 to 14.2%. The normal pension age will be 60years of age. The difference between AFPS and police pension is no contributions are made in the armed force, the political reasoning is that HMF pay is abated to reflect this! Don't believe this for a second. The current climate means that introducing contributions for HMF would not be accepted because the media would go to town on the Govt. The Media how have no such thoughts when it comes to the Police (especially the Daily Mail). I have read on this thread regarding officers getting four times their pension as a lump sum. Under the NPPS2015 the new police pension scheme this won't happen , an officer can commute upto 25% of their pension into a lump sum the same as anyone in any pension scheme. The HMF pension scheme can be drawn much early than even the current police pension. My thoughts as to the HMF pension is add the following to see how the figures stack up, the cost to you off 14.2% of your wage from your entire career; then add the pension received between your retirement date e.g age 40 to the current normal pension age for police 50. Once you have this calculation it will be seen that the HMF pension isn't that bad.

[Trim Stab]

Police terms include a 4X pension tax-free lump sum on the basis (fought by their chiefs) that they are employed in a dangerous job?

Are you trying to imply that the police have a less dangerous job than the military? Police (and Firemen) face the prospect of danger at every call out, and that goes on throughout their careers.

In the military, only a small proportion at the pointy end have dangerous jobs, and even then this tends to be concentrated into times of deployment. Then they undoubtedly face extreme danger - but that is not evenly "shared out" amongst the rest of the military, as it tends to be in the police and fire services. There are a lot of people in the military who have never done anything particularly dangerous during their entire careers in the military.

[Biggus]

I ate a dodgy kebab while on a detachment once..... ;)

[Lima Juliet]

Trim

Sorry to chimp at your remarks again; it's nothing personal!

When I went through flying training we were all told that at least 1 person would be dead on our course of 10 by the time we retired. We lost our first mate in a flying accident just 8 years in...:sad:

This statistic bore out for the other courses as well - sometimes it is 1 in 5!

I don't see the Police or Firemen facing the same 1 in 10 loss rate in peacetime ops?

LJ

[Wensleydale]

A silly question then.....

If a policeman pays 12% of his salary in pension contributions - does his final pension take into account that 12% that he has paid out as part of the calculation? If so, then are we as military losing out on that percentage of our salary that is used to calculate our pension because our contribution is deducted in theory rather than actually?

Just a thought.

[Trim Stab]

Trim

Sorry to chimp at your remarks again; it's nothing personal!

When I went through flying training we were all told that at least 1 person would be dead on our course of 10 by the time we retired. We lost our first mate in a flying accident just 8 years in...

This statistic bore out for the other courses as well - sometimes it is 1 in 5!

I don't see the Police or Firemen facing the same 1 in 10 loss rate in peacetime ops?

LJ

Yes, as I said, some bear considerable risk during their careers. I believe stats for the more pointy end of the infantry are at one in ten coming back from deployment dead or with life-changing injury over the past decade or so.

But how much danger does say - an RAF drone operator face? Or an army Special Pen Service soldier? The average PC Plod or Fireman faces a lot more danger over their career than the majority of those in military service.

[dctyke]

Maybe the risk to firemen is doing their second job;)

[Just This Once...]

Trim, I take your point but the concept of 'rear-echelon only' is out of date. Indirect fire, IEDs etc have no idea what the branch, role or cap badge they are hitting. In the Iraq/Afg conflict we have lost people as diverse as safety equipment fitters, aircraft engineers to MT drivers. Having watched a little female RN medic put a serious amount of rounds down in AFG we need to put aside some outdated views!

As for police, they do have a loss rate. It may be small and a fraction of the police force numbers (they have a full time equivalent of over 200k in England and Wales alone, so they dwarf the armed forces) but it is consistent.

Wiki has this list and I appreciate it includes falls and 'collapsed after running' line-of-duty losses too:

List of British police officers killed in the line of duty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty)

[vascodegama]

I believe that the pension abatement (ie the bit of the military salary that they don't give you) is lot less than 12%. If memory serves it went from 10 % when I joined (long time ago) to 6% when I left (v recently). My understanding of the reason for the drop was the perceived drop in value of the pension. Bit of a giveaway really.

[hanoijane]

Perhaps firemen receive preferential treatment pensions-wise because their role is to save life, not take it?

[Trim Stab]

little female RN medic put a serious amount of rounds down in AFG

Agreed, a matelot putting down live fire sounds very dangerous.

[glad rag]

Oh I'm Laughing My Tits Off.

NOT.

[Melchett01]

Agreed, a matelot putting down live fire sounds very dangerous.

A worrying turn of events indeed. I do hope the cocktail party wasn't disrupted too much, but when one has disagreeable neighbours one simply must take action. :ok:

Edited to add - I have to also agree with JTO that for conflicts like Afghanistan & Iraq, the differentiation between the traditional front lines and rear echelons has diminished considerably meaning a lot more people are under threat for a lot longer. I've been in theatre where Logistics units have put more rounds down than Infantry and because they have been on long resupply missions taking in numerous FOBs in some really hostile areas. I remember one incident when Kandahar was still part of RC(S) and working in the Div HQ, a Logs patrol heading up north ended up with artillery cover at one end of the route, AH cover at the top end of the route and fast air, including a B1 covering the gaps in the middle. I'd never seen anything like it before or since.

Add to that the assymetric threat posed by IDF, suicide attacks and the insider threat and the front line has now expanded quite considerably from what we used to understand it. And until we revert back to more traditional operations, I don't see this changing much any time soon.

[Onceapilot]

The basic problem is that our VSO's will be out-manoevered by the politicians.
It is unacceptable that Service personel have been, are, and will be disadvantaged compared to other public services pension schemes.

OAP

[SOSL]

I am retired now; so for a moment, please excuse my use of the word "we" when I refer to the RAF.

It really doesn't matter what they are paid. It only matters what we are paid!

Rgds SOS

[gr4techie]

Why are people surprised about this?

It's because firefighters have a strong trade union that stands up to the government. We have spineless yes men. That is why they get better pension terms and the goalposts for our pensions get moved in 2015.

[Wander00]

You could be right - FBU has always been one of the more militant left wing unions the Local Authorities have had to deal with - Fire Brigades' pay ISTR is not Government negotiated but by the Local Government Association or some such body.

[AGS Man]

Like probably not a few posters my (preserved) pensionable service was as a Cold War Warrior. I think it's fair to say that had the WarPac hordes decided to bust through the Fulda Gap with the expected air raids on UK all the Emergency Services as well as the Forces would have all been in it together to misquote Call me Dave!
Just a thought.

[Onceapilot]

But the question remains. Why should an unfit Fireman be able to leave that service early on a full pension but, an unfit Serviceman or Woman will be cashiered and will lose out on their pension? Where is the Armed Forces Covenant here? I claim that this disparity, and other proposed pension terms, are in direct contradiction of the above Government policy, ie the Armed Forces Covenant (see UK.GOV). Let us see some action from our superiors, not just the usual "steady on old chap, don't rock the boat or you will make it worse for us all" crap.

OAP

[Vone Rotate]

Onceapilot....

It is acceptable because the majority of firefighters involved initially signed up to a 30yr contract. This is why our contributions are 14.2% not 6 or 7% which most people pay like my wife in the NHS.

Here is the issue. When I was 19 and joined if I knew then I would have to do the physically demanding job of a firefighter till I'm 60 I would have chose not to pay all that money into the pension and maybe invested else where or brought a buy to let.

Now 15 years into my career they say I have to stay on another 10 years paying 14.2% to receive the same pension I thought for the last 15yrs I was getting at 50. I can't withdraw my pension that I've already paid in and if I pull out now I won't see what I paid in till I'm 67. I don't have a choice here, if I want a full pension I must stay on to till I'm 60.

New people get that choice from day one so it's up front what the deal is before committing.

The fitness standard is level 9.2 in the shuttle run. I'm pretty sure I won't do this till I'm 60. If I can't do this the protection were (hopefully) getting means I won't just get sacked on the grounds of capability, I can be redeployed into a non operational role or if I really fall apart towards my late 50's leave with the pension I have earned up to that point instead of not getting it till I'm 67.

[Onceapilot]

Thanks Vone! You make part of my point in the last 1/4 of your bleat.

PS. If you make 9.2@ 60 I will buy you a beer:ok:

OAP

[Lima Juliet]

Here we go, a list of coppers that have fallen in the past 10 years. I'd wager that the military have lost a similar number in peacetime training (including a CinC who tragically died doing a RAF Triathlon):

Gerald Walker PC 42 Nottinghamshire Police 9 January 2003 Run over
Stephen Robin Oake, QGM DC 40 Greater Manchester Police 14 January 2003 Stabbed
Andrew James PC 38 South Wales Police 2 August 2003 Accidentally run over while pursuing burglar on foot
Thomas Andrew Jackson PC 46 South Yorkshire Police 13 December 2003 Collapsed while dispersing rioters
Ian Nigel Broadhurst PC 34 West Yorkshire Police 26 December 2003 Shot
Michael Swindells, QGM DC 44 West Midlands Police 21 May 2004 Stabbed
Sharon Beshenivsky PC 38 West Yorkshire Police 18 November 2005 Shot
Joseph Geoffrey Carroll PC 46 Northumbria Police 13 April 2006 Road traffic accident while transporting a prisoner
Conal Daood Hills PC 36 West Yorkshire Police 19 November 2006 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Richard Gray PC 43 West Mercia Constabulary 6 May 2007 Shot
Jonathan Charles Henry PC 36 Bedfordshire Police 11 June 2007 Stabbed
Christopher Roberts PC 47 Metropolitan Police Service 26 December 2007 Collapsed and died after a violent arrest
Gary Toms PC 26 Metropolitan Police Service 11 April 2009 Run over
Ian Dibell PC 41 Essex Police 9 July 2012 Shot
Fiona Bone PC 32 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Nicola Hughes PC 23 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Adele Yvette Cashman DC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 5 November 2012 Collapsed while pursuing two robbery suspects and later died


I make that 17 in 10 years or 1.7 a year. So I don't buy into the fact that being a copper is any more dangerous (or a fireman) than being in HMForces.

For firemen their rate was 36 due to all causes between 1997-2007 (see http://www.firetactics.com/fbu_fatalities_report.pdf). So about 3.6 a year. On a major exercise we normally lose a serviceman to a RTA or some other training accident alone.

So all in all, I don't see that being in the emergency services is any more dangerous than being the Armed Forces (even when you discount TELIC/HERRICK). In fact, looking at the stats for 2012 (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/publications/health/deaths/deaths-in-service/2012/2012.pdf) HMForces lost 41 personnel in accidents whilst serving alone!
LJ

[mopardave]

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif[/IMG]]

cheap............very cheap!:=

[mopardave]

Oh b*ggar..........done it wrong again dad!

[Willard Whyte]

Y'know, if ya still like it in the mob, s*itty pay rises, cocking around with the pension, absolutely no joy in the work and working for a bunch of chiselers, then fine.

Fact is there are good jobs in the real world: better pay, fewer hours, more fun, less stress. Oh, and final salary pensions too.

[Rigga]

Nicely stated WW.


"Why are people surprised about this?
It's because firefighters have a strong trade union that stands up to the government. We have spineless yes men. That is why they get better pension terms and the goalposts for our pensions get moved in 2015. "

If those pilots that leave can get an airline job, theirs may be the most militant of unions in the UK.

I worked for a police organisation for a few years at a senior rank and my "police civil servant" Pension from them earned more than twice that of a reputable large aviation company in 2/5ths of the time. That was the only good reason for staying there (but not enough reason for me).

Yes. I believe they are right to fight, and fight hard, for their pensions and conditions.

[The B Word]

fight hard

You're having a laugh mate! Taking 4 hours off in the afternoon for Industrial Action and then threatening a further 5 hours is hardly an oppressive struggle against the political classes, is it?

The B Word :ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Leon, further to your post,

Without wishing to start a "we've lost more people than you" contest (because, frankly, it's a very sad affair) I can think of 10 personal friends killed in the UK in peacetime in the past 10 years. All RAF, all Pilot/WSO, so I'd reckon that the tri-service list would be bigger.

Like I said, not starting a contest. But it would be a worryingly high number I suspect.

[ian16th]

Fact is there are good jobs in the real world: better pay, fewer hours, more fun, less stress. Oh, and final salary pensions too.

Not a lot of final salary schemes in private industry these days.

Most companies don't offer a final salary scheme to new hires and are moving existing employee's and pensioners of the company books.

I know, I'm now a 'client' of an insurance company.

[Lima Juliet]

Pba target

I couldn't agree more and others please do not think that was my intent. I just wanted to show that Trim Stab's assumptions were unfounded. I reckon if you add it all up between the Armed Forces and Civilian Emergency Services, we're all around the same - some higher one year (like the sad Nimrod loss or the loss of the 2 female PCs) and some lower the next.

But back to the original thread of the post - do I believe that Firemen deserve special treatment over and above that of HMForces or the Police? No, I don't!

Furthermore, many of the servicemen who have had their lives disrupted by the FBU's action are on significantly less money than their Emergency Service colleagues - we're all in this together? Not a chance, the Firemen are in it for themselves when it comes to this dispute and never mind the rest.

Recently I have had a lot of contact with some of the country's Fire and Rescue Service (FRS). Some don't have second jobs, but an awful lot do. Looking in the local FRS Car Park, there are an awful lot of <3 year old BMWs, Audi TTs and even heard of a bog standard fireman who drives an Aston Martin (his 2nd business is scrap metal and his closeness to fire damaged metal constructed objects seems to spookily compliment each other!).

So in sum, it is time to weed out the rotten apples in the FRS who are taking the p!ss and then, just maybe, you might generate some sympathy from the masses.

lJ

[Willard Whyte]

Not a lot of final salary schemes in private industry these days.

Most companies don't offer a final salary scheme to new hires and are moving existing employee's and pensioners of the company books.

The point is they're available. I'm on one, having started with my new employers last February.

I'm not in any way saying it was the reason I wanted the job, but it's certainly a nice little bonus.

[Al R]

ANYONE who has an issue about public sector pensions has got to accept some facts first. It doesn't make what is happening right, and even defending the change isn't the issue. But it does place it in context.

Al Rush | The meek might inherit the earth.. (http://www.alrush.biz/the-meek-might-inherit-the-earth/)

For partly these reasons, the state has already announced it is going to sell (http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/06/danny-alexander-confirms-student-loan-book-will-be-privatised) the book of business for anyone who took out a student loan for tertiary education between 1997/8 and 2012). It is going to change the terms of that contract too, and raise the repayment interest rate by 3% in order to make the debt book more attractive. It needs the £10 billions. Do former students have a Union fronted by someone who has to justify members paying his/her pension contribution?

Added: We have to pay down the debt or we will have no state pension/NHS ourselves and/or our kids will curse us forever and a day. I concede that me saying this might smack of "I'm alright Jack" hypocrisy - I have an unfunded pension. I don't think it's right and I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't have what we were promised. I'm saying that I don't think we can have what we were promised and that we have no choice but to accept it with gritted teeth.

[Lima Juliet]

Al

Thanks for the link :ok:

I am really shocked (alright, not really!) at the annual salaries of the Union leaders...

Bob Crow (RMT) - £79,564 in salary, £26,115 in pension contributions, £13,013 expenses
John Hannett (USDAW) - £81,742 salary, £16,389 pension contributions
Billy Hayes (CWU) - £83,530 salary, £14,190 pension contributions
Sally Hunt (UCU) - £63,743 salary, £7,612 pension contributions, £2705 car benefit (start of June 2006 to end of May 2007)
Paul Kenny (GMB) - £81,000 salary, £21,000 superannuation (pension contributions), £8,000 car
Dave Prentis (Unison) - £92,187 salary, £23,603 pension contributions, £11,646 expenses and car benefit
Derek Simpson (Unite-Amicus) - £62,673 salary, £16,156 pension contributions, £13,333 car allowance, £26,181 housing benefit
Mark Serwotka (PCS) - £82,094 salary, £26,104 pensions contributions, £2,245 additional housing cost allowance and additional housing cost supplement
Steve Sinnott (NUT) - £99,846 salary, £23,963 pension contributions
Tony Woodley (Unite-TGWU) - £59,333 salary, £9,552 pension contributions, car fuel £3,360
Matt Wrack (FBU) - £66,389 salary, £44,281 pension contributions, £5,134 car

Snouts in the trough! :=

[Just This Once...]

Yet if you compared those salaries to the directors of the major UK charities they would look positively saintly.

[gr4techie]

Leon,

You forgot to post the salaries and benefits of politicians.

[Wrathmonk]

LJ

In terms of balance the UK military has 300 x 1* officers (earning on average £99,984) and 130 x 2* and above (earning between £113,000 and £175,000 with CDS earning £245,000).

I would suggest that the union leaders are doing a better job per £ of salary defending their members T&Cs and pensions than the military leaders are!

[Just This Once...]

I wonder how many of those union leaders get paid more than L-J?

[SOSL]

My pension is quite important to me and so I use it carefully.

Anyone else's pension is of no consequence whatsoever to me and so I don't waste my time thinking about it.

Rgds SOS

[Biggus]

LJ,

So, you're saying that many Union Leaders ("leading" how many members, and with what level of responsibility?) get paid less than a Flt Lt near the top of the PA spine......

..... and your point is?

[Party Animal]

Biggus,

If you add the pension pot to annual salary, there are only a couple on LJ's list getting less than a PAS 'top whack' Flt Lt.

Far worse than union leaders are the amounts paid to many senior council staff around the UK. Although public sector, they repeatedly refuse to admit what contracts they have negotiated with local government as they declare it to be personal. However, there are a significant number who outpace CDS' modest amount with far fewer staff they hold responsibility for.

I accept though that publc sector pensions are a huge issue that needs to be gripped by our elected leadership. Just like our UK strategy for energy generation. Swept under the carpet till the next lot are in power and subject to very short term mentality only.

[Just This Once...]

…and what happens if you add the PAS employers' pension contribution to the salary:

For example @ level 32

Salary £75,501.00
Pension £26,651.85

Total £102,152.85

(figures taken from Armed Forces Benefits Calculator, ignoring all the other waffle)

[Willard Whyte]

I would suggest that the union leaders are doing a better job per £ of salary defending their members T&Cs and pensions than the military leaders are!

I'd agree with that:

Last 3 years of military pay 'rises': 0%, 0%, 1.5(?)%

Last 3 yrs of train driver pay rises: 5.5%, 3.7%, 3.2%

Most staff are on circa RPI + 0.5% to 1.0%

On the other hand, train driver's don't get an annual increment roughly equal to 1.3%, and the final salary pension is salary sacrifice.

[Lima Juliet]

Which is all fine, girls and boys, until you consider that the average person who is paying Union Subs to pay these people earn between 30-60% less. Furthermore, leading a strike once in a while for £60k-£90k plus perks sounds like "troughing" to me!

Stereotypical?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a9OAvqyjn0

LJ

[Just This Once...]

LJ, I see and accept what you are saying but these people do appear to get better results for their membership than we get from our own system. As such, their membership may see their salaries as a fair price to pay.

I fear that we do not get the representation we deserve. The AFPRB is toothless and the SC Commissioner reflects on her own limited powers and seeks the role of an empowered ombudsman. Our seniors stand divided, made to compete with each other and, occasionally, are self-serving.

For generations the military had fair representation at political level principally through the sheer number of politicians with prior military experience. We are perhaps the first military generation where this no longer holds true.

[Lima Juliet]

JTO

I concur with your thoughts. What happened to the chap from the AFPRB earlier this year was a scandal.

LJ

[gr4techie]

Leon,

The average person paying union subs towards full time union leaders is no different than the average tax payer who is paying for public sector wages. Hang on, the person paying union subs has a choice. Maybe some see union subs like paying an insurance policy, you pay a small amount every month in case you need it.

I also agree with JTO comments about spineless yes men.

Also it does raise questions about the "independence" of pay review bodies when they get sacked after recommending a pay rise.

[Onceapilot]

Well, the last five posts have got the message:ok:.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the UK Armed Forces are about to get the bat well and truly stuffed up their pension terms! The world is a dangerous place and I forsee that Service personel will continue to be very hard working and exposed to great risk in the future. Everyone should realise that they will be disadvantaged compared to other public service professionals because their VSO's fail to understand and fight for better parity.
Just remember that some other ( civilian ) public servants retire at age 50 on half salary because their chief's fought for 1/60th salary accrual rate on the basis that it was a dangerous job.

OAP

[Lima Juliet]

"All out" again Brothers/Sisters! On 1 Nov 13 and 4 Nov 13 this time.

What makes this lot think it's so special compared to others like the Grangemouth mob? I hope the Govt agree to fold them all up and offer it to PFI.

[mopardave]

"All out" again Brothers/Sisters! On 1 Nov 13 and 4 Nov 13 this time.

What makes this lot think it's so special compared to others like the Grangemouth mob? I hope the Govt agree to fold them all up and offer it to PFI.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=8117557)

LJ........sounds to me like you had a damn good time flying at the tax payers expense and being paid for it........and good for you. You were probably very good at your job and as such, should have been well compensated for it. I wasn't successful at OASC but I don't bitch about the fun you had thundering about in one of the taxpayers fast jets, or your "NATO beer calls".......as a profession, I salute you. Flying is inherently dangerous at times, I don't doubt. And so is my job.........you don't ride a fire appliance for nearly thirty years and not have moments of terror or revulsion, trust me. I pass my fitness test twice a year and consider myself to be a professional. In my brigade, we are operationally tested continually.........we don't have a snooker table and I don't have a second job.........but I do drive a 3 series BMW which is 12 years old. I am concerned about the effects of night working and breathing in unknown chemical cocktails over my 30 years in the job. I accept that as an occupational hazard.......after all, if ya can't take a joke, don't join......right? Make us "PFI".......yeh, we know how successful they are don't we! This country faces far more pressing issues than the fire fighters pension......we're just a distraction! I think we do have something in common........we are both professionals.You just sound a little resentful.
But I wish you all the best in any case.
MD

[Lima Juliet]

MD

No resentfulness, just trying to be real. There is one thing that I really dislike, though; Unions and militancy. Both of those have sunk many industries in the UK when they cannot see beyond the ends of their noses. When you get the likes of Crow or Wrack harping on about "safety", I think to my self poppy-cock, it's all about the money and getting more for the individual.

Whilst I wish you no ill personally, I do believe that the other side of this that is not understood is the amount of embuggerance this causes for others: those being stood up to provide the continguency under the Civil Continguencies Act 2004, the non-FBU member personnel who work in the FRS, the Armed Forces (alright a small amount compared to Op FRESCO, but it is messing about a small cadre) and also the County Council Resilience Planners, etc...

Maybe you can understand that I am feeling this embuggerance which is about to wreck another week and weekend for me when my terms and conditions are already to retire at a far later age? So this is my personal gripe due to the FBU's membership actions affecting my personal life.

Finally, a quick scan of the comments in the local online papers across the country reveals that my attitude is pretty popular amongst the UK's populace. Furthermore, I note that an on-line petition that ran for 3 weeks only attracted 5,000 of the 10,000 needed. So I just don't believe that the majority of this country is behind you guys - we're all suffering because Bliar and his 'financial genius' spent all our cash and then borrowed even more!

LJ

PS As for boozing at taxpayers' expense? That little luxury fell apart years ago with the introduction of providing receipts for everything claimed - which is a right pain in the... :mad:

[mopardave]

LJ.......check your PM's mate.
MD

[The Old Fat One]

SOSL hinted at it, but it seems to have flown right over most heads here. So, once more with feeling...stop comparing yourselves to others as in "we are the most special".

It's pathetic.

Serviceman are special. Fact. So are many other people in society. Also fact.

Serviceman enjoy a superb pension scheme. Fact. Huge swathes of people in our society doing all sort of necessary jobs, have no pension scheme whatsoever...or are paying huge chunks of money for derisory returns. Fact.

It is OK to fight your corner, in fact I am personally grateful for those that do that. It is not OK to fight your corner by slagging off or belittling fellow public servants just be you are stupid enough to buy in to the boll0cks printed in the media.

If the cap fits...

[Lima Juliet]

TOFO

Fair points mate, however, I do hope you don't think I'm belittling other public servants? That is not my inent.

I would like to belittle the people that dragged themselves to the negotiation table and within 4 days, to the astonishment of the other side, they stomped off announcing further action. It all looks a bit churlish to me...

...just my personal opinion, though.:cool:

LJ

[mopardave]

SOSL hinted at it, but it seems to have flown right over most heads here. So, once more with feeling...stop comparing yourselves to others as in "we are the most special".

It's pathetic.

Serviceman are special. Fact. So are many other people in society. Also fact.

Serviceman enjoy a superb pension scheme. Fact. Huge swathes of people in our society doing all sort of necessary jobs, have no pension scheme whatsoever...or are paying huge chunks of money for derisory returns. Fact.

It is OK to fight your corner, in fact I am personally grateful for those that do that. It is not OK to fight your corner by slagging off or belittling fellow public servants just be you are stupid enough to buy in to the boll0cks printed in the media.

If the cap fits...

Thanks for that TOFO.............as a serving firefighter I really can see both sides......I'm not a fool. To underline what you've said, I would just ask people to see past a lot of the crap that will be printed about us. If half of what is written about us was true......I'd be too ashamed to step out of my front door. I always try and see the other guys point of view so I understand why people are getting wound up.......but the real villains here are the idiots who blew this countries wealth one way or another. We're just an easy target. This is going to be messy.........they will get us back for this...........like they did last time.......and I fear for the British fire service as a whole. Interesting that the Scottish parliament appears to have struck a deal with their Firefighters.......as ever, what Scotland wants, Scotland gets!
As a Firefighter with a conscience, I apologise to anyone who suffers as a result of this........but there are some politicians who should hang their heads in shame!
And now I'll get my coat!:sad:

[Lima Juliet]

but the real villains here are the idiots who blew this countries wealth one way or another.

Too true, MD, too true...:sad:

Anyone can be Bliar's "financial genius" in times of growth. Furthermore, the people before and after Bliar have not been much better - giving away money in financial aid and underselling during de-nationalisation (eg. Royal Mail, etc...).

But I guess we are where we are and there is just a glimmer on the horizon that we're back into growth. Let's hope this lot don't muck it up as well!

LJ

[mopardave]

You know, I suspect that when my union is negotiating with the government, personality clashes, can disproportionately influence the outcome. I also suspect that politics is an inherently disingenuous profession.....and that most of them have had a total common sense bypass!
What do I know........I'm just Mr Middle England! :ugh:

[Onceapilot]

BBC report that Firemen will start strikes, due to no action from government on their new pension/terms of employment.
I wonder who will get a better outcome, the Services or the Firemen?

OAP

[AR1]

Word to the wise. There was a time when all firefighters were overwieght part timers who had second jobs. Whoever presided over thier elevation to hero status take a bow.
In the meantime - take your shirt off and do a christmas calender. Job done.

[Courtney Mil]

Where is it written that firemen have to have worse pensions than servicemen?

[The Old Fat One]

Word to the wise. There was a time when all firefighters were overwieght part timers who had second jobs.

I'm sure there was. And there was time (not so long ago) when you could walk into an RAF sergeants mess at lunchtime and think you had just walked on to the set of some celebrity fatso competition.

Times change...for all of us.

[Al R]

Be grateful for small mercies. In the US, budget discussions seem to have placed the matter of actually cutting military pay on the table. And military pensions over there too, now in the firing line. I wonder if the good congressmen will be going overseas themselves.. to sell it in person to the troops?

“For younger military retirees, we trim their cost-of-living adjustment just a bit,” explains a fact sheet released by Ryan’s committee. “It’s a modest reform for working-age military retirees.”

Ryan-Murray deal hits younger, future military retirees - U.S. - Stripes (http://www.stripes.com/news/us/ryan-murray-deal-hits-younger-future-military-retirees-1.257099?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Opinion: Congress betrays military retirees - CNN.com (http://us.cnn.com/2013/12/13/opinion/sanderlin-military-pensions/index.html?sr=sharebar_facebook)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/11/us/politics/party-leaders-indicate-deal-is-reached-on-budget.html?_r=0

[Just This Once...]

The CNN article linked to above could equally apply to the UK.

Am I reading it correctly in that retiring at their equivalent of IPP US Forces currently get an index linked payment rather than the fixed one we get?

[Al R]

Not sure, but it seems to suggest it.

On top of that editorial, we learned the Ryan-Murray bipartisan budget deal would cut pension cost-of-living raises by 1 percentage point for retirees who aren't disabled and not yet 62

The other article suggests though, that (at aged 62);

At that point they would receive a one-time catch up in their annuity to restore lost purchasing power going forward into old age.

Not much help in the meantime though, and lets face it, what value on a legislative promise not due for 20 or 30 years? What value on any legislative promise, come to think of it.

[Courtney Mil]

Good point, Al R. Legislative promises aren't worth a fig. There is a precident for the one time catch up, though.

[Hangarshuffle]

Firemen are out on strike again soon (over Xmas and NY verily).
Cheers fellow public sector workers.

[Lima Juliet]

Ho, ruddy, ho... :*

[Red Line Entry]

Christmas Eve evening I understand! Thanks for that Fireman Sam - the public won't care, the politicians won't care, all you've done is bugger up the lives of the poor sods on Op FODIENT!

[Lima Juliet]

Here's an interesting read for those following this and the F-word (which is mentioned within):

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/266295/PSPA_review.pdf

LJ

[mopardave]

Here's an interesting read for those following this and the F-word (which is mentioned within):


LJ

that is indeed an interesting read.........a vo2 max of only 40 and fitness tests every three years........in my brigade it's vo2 max of 42 and fitness testing every 6 months.

The requirement to train to meet site specific needs e.g. Nuclear, Explosive, Maritime, Aero, Rail, which LAFRS would not routinely have to train for means that many defence fire and rescue personnel have a broader level of competence than their LAFRS counterparts................hmmmmmmmm, not sure about that! I don't want to denigrate in any way, my colleagues in the MOD FRS, who no doubt do a great job.......but really?

Dave