Breaking news on 3rd country licences

[Pace]

Below is part of a letter from the CAA Confirming what I knew to be happening


I am writing to inform you that following a vote at an International Meeting at the European Commission held 17 October 2013, the following change to the Aircrew Regulation has been agreed on:

Extension of derogation - validation requirements for non-commercial flights
The derogation against the requirement to hold a Part-FCL licence or a European validation of a 3rd Country licence to fly 3rd country-registered aircraft based in the EU is to expire on 8th April 2014. The amendment to the regulation will extend the derogation to 8th April 2015.

This means that pilots employed by companies operating privately operated corporate aircraft such as yourself do not require a Part-FCL validation until 8th April 2015.

[Pace]

No not yet as this gives us 1.5 years to carry on as before! I am told that a big part of the extension is to get a BASA with the FAA where there is now some light at the end of the tunnel and that a further extension is possible.

on top of that even in 2015 I have a possible 2 years conversion time on validations so making it 3.5 years before I need to hold EASA licences to operate.

As such for now I will sit tight and see what develops along the BASA lines hopefully towards an FAA Canada route for conversion which is a practical and sensible route.

Pace

[Pace]

I get the point Pace, but I read it as a maximum of 1 year validation

I thought the same but not true as long as you are on a conversion course you are given the second year to complete. I could not get my head round that either but it amounts to 2 years.
But hopefully the picture will be different by then

I think the validation as a one off is not based on licence conversion time ie someone who had no intention of converting would be only entitled to one validation! With genuine converters there is flexibility to add another year. The two issues are different and treated so.
For instance you could have a job offer in Outer Mongolia starting in a years time so no wish to convert. You are still entitled to a one off validation!
One month before the year is up the job goes and you sign up to a conversion course there is flexibility to accommodate you.
So effectively 2 years you would be hard pushed to justify more than the second year

pace

[BillieBob]

Annex III to Regulation 1178/2011

The period of validation of a licence shall not exceed 1 year....

This extension shall cover the period of time necessary for the licence to be issued in accordance with Part-FCL.Where does 2 years come from? By the letter of the law, the extension is open ended - what if it takes 2 years (or more) to get the licence issued?

[Pace]

I do not really want to go in detail but i have seen complete 180 about turns on interpretations of EASA regulation making :ugh: and I wont go into detail where the 2 year came from either. Albeit lucky they did extend 1 year or chaos would rule.

Pace

[moonym20]

The validation process involves a lot of jumping through various hoops, the CAA will issue a 12 month validation which can then be extended once only, that everyone knew.

However, the extension is subject to you then proving you have enrolled on a course to convert, ie the ATPL writtens. This extension will be decided by the CAA when they speak to your training provider and reach a decision on how long they believe you will take to convert. Pilot Validation @ the CAA had one person who got their validation issued then said they wanted a three year extension, that was refused and they gave an 8 month extension.

Pilots should take a close look at Cap804 and Annex III page 529 - if you were enjoying life as a jet jockey captain and your experience doesn't fit the right box you will be lucky if they allow you a validation to sit in the Right seat!

The 12 month delay for this madness is stay of execution only. There's a lot of work to do to correct the numerous problems that exist.

[Pace]

MooneyM20

You do have to jump through a lot of hoops and at massive expense!
Wil it be a 1.5 year ie a year from next April or will that be extended again?
Will it ever happen? Somehow I think not? I think there are too many problems as well as legal problems enacting these laws as they stand and some sort of BASA is the only practical way forward.
It was always madness this dual licence thing especially as the licences had no bearing on the aircraft being flown!
So a better way to achieve a result will have to be found and one which is not so damaging to European citizens going about their lawful business.
So I do not see it as a stay of execution but the beginning of the end of flawed regulations which should be relocated to the rubbish bin

Pilots should take a close look at Cap804 and Annex III page 529 - if you were enjoying life as a jet jockey captain and your experience doesn't fit the right box you will be lucky if they allow you a validation to sit in the Right seat!

M20 that was the case but see my earlier post about a 180 :ok:

Pace

[mad_jock]

Will it ever happen? Somehow I think not? I think there are too many problems as well as legal problems enacting these laws as they stand and some sort of BASA is the only practical way forward.

You keep saying that, but so many things have had exactly the same issues and have still gone through involving factors of 10 more EU citizens being restricted if not out rightly stopped from doing there jobs which they have done for most of their lifes. Including professional pilots in the EU who used to be able to fly with a night restriction on a CPL but now can't. So cannot now earn a living from teaching CPL level because they don't hold one.

The lobbying that is going on from the other side to get it through is astronomical. And that's from industry and the civil servant side of things.

They don't want European citizens flying in Europe with a European license what ever flavour of nationality of the aircraft.

It would be a very silly employer who would take on anyone to fly a N reg in Europe without dual licensing. Also I suspect apart from a minority of die hards, I ain't doing it on a point of principle I suspect most are jumping through the hoops.

What ever you say it isn't that expensive to get converted, the exams aren't that hard.

[Pace]

Mad Jock

I know a lot more than I am
Letting on one colleague runs three type ratings he is expected to be validated on 3 types ? His type ratings cost him over 20 k a year on recurrent s what do you think 3 validations would cost on top ?
So it is very expensive! I can assure you without going into detail there are legal issues as well as other issues? Why do you think the Commission has delayed 1.5 years ? For fun ? There will be a solution which suits EASA las well as aw abiding pilots making a living on N reg but it won't be what's on the table at the moment take my word for it
Reminding you that come April 2014 you said without doubt that we would all have to hold EASA equivalent licences I said it would be extended to 2016 and would probably never happen who of us right so far ;)
MJ we always get on just different religions ; )
Pace

[mad_jock]

No it won't be what's on the table just now. But you will have to do the ATPL theory and you will have to do a LST. The transfer of type ratings you may get a group pass on initially but then they will follow the normal currency rules in the EU.

Letting on one colleague runs three type ratings he is expected to be validated on 3 types ? His type ratings cost him over 20 k a year on recurrent s what do you think 3 validations would cost on top ?

That's exactly the reason why it will change to stop one EU citizen having a economic advantage over the others flying exactly the same type of planes in exactly the same countries. We can't have 3 types active at one time.

The validations would be one off's at about 800quid each I suspect which will be tax deductible unless they say you only have to do one and types which you have time on in the previous 12 months are granted without check.

[Pace]

MJ

Talk to me in 1.5 years :ok:

Pace

[mad_jock]

We shall see how it goes.

But having seen what they did to get the recent FTL changes through I personally think you are stuffed.

[Pace]

MJ

As a person who thinks the sun shines out of EASAs ??? I am not surprised you hold that stance ; ) Also as one who hates everything FAA

Pace

[mad_jock]

You are wrong on both counts.

Just more of a realist than you are.

I do though hold the position that all of us that are citizens who live and work in the same area should be subject to the same set of regulations.

[Pace]

MJ

I have no problems changing to EASA licences in a sensible FAA to Transport Canada style conversion which is what it should be!
I do have a problem as an ICAO ATP holder being treated as ann18 year old with no aviation experience and expected to do 14 mostly irrelevant exams and to pay a huge amount of money getting validations to do what I do as safely and professionally as you now!
So Air law and quick flight test and I am
Happy politically motivated rubbish I am
Not ; ( speak to you in 1.5 years and remember this conversation ; )

Pace

[mad_jock]

I will refrain from telling you I told you so.

When the FAA allow EU pilots to convert with no theory exams apart from airlaw you might have a chance.

I really don't see them bowing to anyone and changing the way they do things.


And I see huge amounts of lobbying not to let it happen from both sides civil servants and industry.

[Pace]

I will refrain from telling you I told you so.

Don't refrain on my behalf ; ) you told me that come April 2014 I would have to convert to EASA or be out if a job ???
There is no way this will go through in its current form as it breaks a stack of European law take my word for it MJ this time I do know what I am
Talking about but it's better we leave it for now speak again 1,5 years down the line or maybe 2.5 when it gets extended again!
As for backed by industry I presume you are referring to a French flying school with a prominent influential owner who started all this? The whole thing stinks and it's not a nice smell

Pace

[mad_jock]

Nope not just the training industry you have a lot of the biz jet compnays pushing for it as well.

And more than likely most of the socialist states pilot groups just because it isn't they way they like to see things done.

We shall see what happens personally it doesn't affect me one little bit. I also believe that in your 2.5 years the bulk of the drivers will have transferred because they can't afford to not feed the family. And once your group starts shrinking that's it.

I also don't think they will care one little bit if it breaks other laws if it actually does. As I said the laws that you hang your hat on wern;t trigger for numerous other changes in law which caused the working practises of various industry's to require re-qualification.

[Pace]

MJ
We always cross swords on this issue a BASA has to be the right way forward! Other than legal problems.validation problems for a number of member states the main reason is light at the end of the tunnel with a BASA!
Why else do you think the delay has happened and what is wrong with a FAA transport Canada type conversion ? God you are so fixed in he past?
Anyway I hope you're not eventually right as it will stick EASA firmly as not a forward looking organisation but one driven by political and protectionism only

Pace

[BillieBob]

stick EASA firmly as not a forward looking organisation but one driven by political and protectionism onlyNoooo! Surely not.

[mad_jock]

A BASA has to be the right way forward

It may be what you think is the way forward. But for whole loads of none aviation types its not acceptable. You are a EU citizen as far as they are concerned and subject to the same rules as every other citizen. All they see themselves doing is closing a loophole that dates back to WWII and the alied occupation.

Anyway I hope you're not eventually right as it will stick EASA firmly as not a forward looking organisation but one driven by political and protectionism only

It already is, which is why its not going to happen.

Face facts you will have to get a medical, do the 14 exams and you will have to do a flight check on all the types you intend to fly.

And going the other way to FAA we will have to get a medical, sit all the theory exams, do a flight check on every type that are intended to be operated.

I don't think the FAA will budge on the matter especially once the US pilots unions get wind of it.

We don't really cross swords, you say its never going to happen. I say don't be silly they are playing the medium to long game and it will happen if you like it or not. Tactical stays of execution are just that.

[S-Works]

Speaking as someone already dual licenced and compliant with the new law, I have locked horns with Pace many times on this subject and will say again I think he is pissing in the wind to put it bluntly.

There is no world in which which there will ever be a bilateral agreement where the current European training Infrastructure exists. A Bi lateral wipes out the European training industry at a stroke and that is never going to be agreed to in order to save Pace getting a medical and sitting a few exams. The FAA are never going to agree to annual IR and Class Rating testing which has always been part of the European demands and EASA are never going to agree to rolling currency.

The current conversion process is simple enough unless you are congenitally lazy or retarded.

Working under a flag of convenience always came with its dangers......

[Pace]

Bose and MJ

You may both be right but I ask you both one question ?
Why do you thing the Commision have delayed introduction for 1.5 years
Bit late getting everything together why not delay 6 months?
I also know as fact that even EASA are subject to regulating within existing EU law and I do not believe that to be the case infact ( a hint) I know that not to be be the case! So both chat to me when April 2015 looms ; )
I am sure you will both be proved right

Pace

[S-Works]

Speaking as Head of Training of an ATO in my second job, let me ask you a question......

Do you think that I or anyone of the thousands of others in my position are going to support something that would decimate the European Flight Training Industry in a stroke in order you save you sitting the exams and flight tests that we have already sat?

If you think a few FAA holders feeling hard done by in order to save themselves the effort of becoming compliant is going to have a louder voice than the European training industry you have a real shock coming. EASA exists to support and regulate that industry as well as the commercial operations. Knocking that out would decimate them over night and believe me that will never happen.

So let's have the conversation in the future. In the meantime with all due respect I wish you would just either put up or shut up because your endless attempts at trying to drop pointless snippets at how you are going to be vindicated is a bore. Believe it or not you are in a tiny minority of people refusing to comply and I suspect that EASA are yanking your chain in the hope you go away.

Look on the bright side, I can point a dozen hopefuls in the direction of your employer who are compliant with the law and happy to jump in and replace you....

Just do the damn exams and flight test......:ugh:

[Silvaire1]

What European flight training industry?

[S-Works]

Flight schools all over Europe training for EASA qualifications. Allowing people to go off and do FAA qualifications and then convert them under a bilateral agreement would do serious damage to European flight schools. That is where the really powerful political lobby will come from to block it. The CAAs take huge fees from European training as well as having a huge numbers of staff administering it and auditing it.

Can you imagine what would happen to that machine if people could just get trained under the much freer FAA system and then convert with minimal effort?

[Pace]

Bose

Then I ask you again why do you think there has been a stay of execution for 1.5 years! It's your cage which is rattled not mine!
I am happy with the way this is panning out you obviously are not!
Let me ask you another question are FAA ATPs worse that JAA / EASA ATPs ? You know they are not so come out of the dark ages and misplaced self protectionist mode and support what should be the case which is a harmonisation of all licences world wide! transport Canada can do it!
Also I would really like to know your route to JAA licences as I am told through now closed loopholes!
So it's not me that is rattled I just placed news of the extension for others here to see
As for destroying the training industry what a load of bunkum!
The only thing which is destroying that industry are huge costs and red tape! Hence why most of Even JAA /EASA flight training is state side and not here which is almost ground school only!
I presume you have heard of the free market rules ?
Maybe you and others have it wrong!!!

We have priced ourselves out of the market so please legislate to protect us is NOT the way forward in a Free world!
Offer something as good or better than the FAA system and you might just find more young people without very wealthy parents start coming into the industry again!

Pace

[S-Works]

My cage is not rattled at all. Just fed up of you banging on about how you don't see how you should adopt the rules and regulations of the jurisdiction that you operate in.

I quite agree that there is no difference between an EASA ATPL and an FAA ATP. If you are an EASA licence holder and want to fly in the US or Canada then you have to convert. If you are an FAA certificate holder and want to fly in Europe you have to convert. No difference, its just that Europe has adopted exams that you don't want to or are incapable of completing.

When I converted from FAA to Transport Canada I had to jump through the required hoops. I did not sit and complain about it. The same as for the various other places I have had to convert to.

For you to convert to an EASA licence you have to take the exams, there is no compulsory ground school or minimum hours of study. As you have already pointed out your FAA ATP already grants you equivalent knowledge to an EASA one so the exams should be a doddle.

Personally having done both the European and the FAA Exams and training I really don't see what your problem is.

As far as your dispersions on how you may think I gained my JAA licences I can assure you that despite the assurances you may have had from Mr H, I did my exams with CATS and my flight training at Bonus and tested with CAA examiners. CAA Staff Examiners did my IR and my CPL. What I did was take advantage of the shorter conversion process. Something that is not a closed loop hole and is equally available to you.

[Pace]

Bose

We are never going to see eye to eye on this and it is all becoming too personal so best left! I have put up the extension which is fact anything else is guesswork on my part and yours so we can open up the discussion in a year and a half when we know what's on the table then!
If its whats on the table now I will be really surprised amd you can throw your hat in the air!
If its an FAA /Transport Canada style conversion we will both be really surprised and I will throw my hat in the air.
It will be something in-between my guess more to your requirements but who knows! I dont and neither do you.

For you to convert to an EASA licence you have to take the exams, there is no compulsory ground school or minimum hours of study. As you have already pointed out your FAA ATP already grants you equivalent knowledge to an EASA one so the exams should be a doddle.

They are not practical exams and full of stuff like how many molecules make up a windscreen (sarcastic) 4 JAA Pilots I spoke with all say they would never walk into an exam tomorrow and pass even though they passed years back because a lot of the stuff is not practical or relevant and all 4 stated that they had forgotten most of it.

With AN2 s post below I also agree that it is the regulators and flight schools who are decimating their own industry! you do not need any help from N reg or the FAA as you are all pushing your own self destruct button. The sad thing is you are all too blinkered to see that you are fighting the wrong enemy.

if I want to fly an EASA registered aircraft I need to hold the correct licences to do so! If I want to fly an FAA registered aircraft I need the correct licences to do so. But being required to hold licences which have NO validity on the aircraft being flown is madness
Bose you and MJ both say you are determined as is the training industry to get rid of N reg in Europe? Do you really think that will sort your problems ?
Those are comments of fools and neither ofvyou are fools
N reg in Europe is a result of oppressive over regulation and high costs not the cause of the decimation of your industry! You have to deal with the cause and that where you are fools in not seeing the picture!

With that last point I am out of this thread so you and MJ can have a field day as you two and me make up 95% of the posts in this thread in personal squabbles

Pace

[AN2 Driver]

Maybe we could get out of this contest here by simply asking the question of why the current situation exists in the first place.

If EASA were to compete with the rest of the world in terms of attractiveness of their FCL rather than trying to run a system which has all of GA in decline since ever it saw the light of day as JAR, we would simply not see people voting with their feet.

There is NO reason at all that European exams should be as complex, expensive and impractical as they are, nor does it help flight schools and other FTOs in the long run. Yes, it causes training to be more expensive, but you don't make more money that way because people stay away.

Why does the US still have a florishing flight school industry whereas Europes schools and clubs are fighting for survival?

I can see where Pace and the tens of thousands of FAA licensed pilots are coming from. I can also see Bose and MJ's point of view. I agree with both!

No, we do NOT want students to flock away to the US to do their thing, they should do it right where they are going to fly and they should leave the money they pay at home.
No, I do NOT agree with the presumtion that there should be an unilateral reckognition process in Europe while the US still asks every single European pilot to redo the whole examination process! Either there is MUTUAL reckognition, that is a BASA, or Europe has no reason to accept FAA licenses any more than the FAA accepts theirs.

But again: Personally I see the question asked and the fight fought here is the wrong fight.

Europe needs to become comparable and competitive with the US system so that people will flock back to European schools and into the European system out of their own accord. Yes, that would be feasible but it means a massive change of heart within the Brussels and Köln crowds.

France has realized this and acted accordingly, at least where the IR is concerned. In that regard, it appears that EASA is relenting now as well.

But that is not all. Not by a long run.

If we want to have a thriving industry again here, and not only in training because without GA flying outside of training, the question of FTO's themselves becomes quite pointless, we need a legal system we can work with and which is tailored to each licence steps individual needs rather than the unnecessary ballast we see today. We need maintenance rules which allow the running of an airplane in Europe for the same price or even more economical than keeping and running an N-Reg airplane. We need to improve the way European infrastructure is being treated, get rid of professional hinderers and hasslers.

THAT, guys, would be an improvement everyone here in Europe would profit from and make flags of convenience flying go away by it's own.