Grumman Trackers

[Hasherucf]

Wondering what these would useful for , beside scrapping .

11 x Ex-Military Grumman Trackers (http://www.graysonline.com/sale/3003984/boats-marine-aircraft/11-x-ex-military-grumman-trackers?spr=true)

[tail wheel]

Conversion to very effective water bombers:

HtXB6c_INzM

The final Tracker display at Nowra 1984:

_hi3xkxAsrs

Or to mount a couple of PT6's and convert to a Connair Turbo Firecat!

It only needs money! :}

[Howabout]

Sad. One only has to have heard the growl on a quiet, warm, and nil-breeze early Darwin morning as the boys went out for the daily patrol early 80's. Sun still coming up.

Lyall (PLT) and Gibbo (OBS) always requested an early right turn off RWY11 and flew over the top of the Navy Commander's house in Coonawarra at 0530 on max power and 200AGL.

Ring, ring 'I am getting sick and bloody tired of this! Every bloody morning I get woken up!'

'Sorry, Sir, but it was the only way to get your boys out under the incoming traffic and get them on task on time. My boss's number is xxx, Sir, if you want to take it further then please talk to him. But I'd suggest we are doing the best we can to get Navy out there with minimal delay.'

Not another aircraft in the sky!

[BPA]

Tailwheel, you are showing to much logic.

[By George]

'Howabout' if that was the 'O'Donoghue' version I can believe that. Funny guy, only spoke to him again last March after a 12 year break. Boy those Navy pilots could put away a glass or two.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Saw three of the turbine conversions at Hollister last month in the water bombing role with an OV-10 as a spotter. Crews seemed happy with them.

[Wunwing]

I had a look at them 3 years ago on behalf of a museum.They have been hangared for many years and at that time, except for the evidence of birds, the airframes were in reasonable condition.

At the time I suggested on this site that they were candidates for fire bomber conversion but was howled down by the local fire aviators telling me that they were no good, our trees are different etc.

I recently discussed this again with some persons that I met through another interest who are involved in aircraft fire fighting.I was firmly told that only small aircraft work here.I came away from that conversation a little mystified as their opinion seemed based on trials of 1 or 2 large aircraft not a fleet as is used elsewhere.Clearly the rest of the World is wrong on this topic.

Wunwing

[Super Cecil]

Wunwing, as has been discussed on here before. They would cost a lot to convert 2 million+, their load is much the same as 802 now being used which is a similar price new. One other hindrance would be casa paperwork for conversion, you would be looking at a 10 year delay plus another couple of million so of costs because they can.

[Frank Arouet]

Why would CASA need be involved?

If they were owned/ registered by NZ or US and deployed here during the fire season, (as the Skycrane), I can't see a problem.

Something the Kiwis can get one on us as they usually do.

Industrious dudes those Kiwis.:suspect:

[Captain Dart]

What a mighty product of the Grumman 'Ironworks'. It never let me down over several cruises in HMAS Melbourne. Pathetic to see them deteriorated like that, but as I can't afford to restore and run the equivalent of two T-28's and then some, I'll have to wait for that Powerball win.

I seem to remember that it took 4,000 lb of AVGAS, it had no internal start capability (apart from a torpedo bay battery mod), very high pressure tyres and maintenance-intensive constant-speed AC generators. No engine fire bottles.

The carrier circuit was flown at 300', trimmed out at its landing speed of 95 knots. There was a special grip in front of the Twin Otter-style throttles to stop the pilot pulling them back during the acceleration of the catapult shot. Landing one on the Melbourne at night, in a high sea state and no shore diversion could be described as 'intense'. The Landing Signals Officers (LSO's) did a fantastic job getting us on board safely in these conditions. Australian Trackers were flown single pilot, the co-pilot duties performed by the Tacco, a highly qualified Observer. A great posting for a kid just off Pilot's Course.

It had the capability of a P-3B and could be on task in minutes off the carrier instead of the Air Force's hours (and that was assuming that the RAAF wasn't having a 'sportie', not in the bar and it was a week day), and we often worked in pairs. Tracker sorties were flown round the clock during an exercise, each one up to six hours, some of it at low level, at night down to 300' on the radalt when conducting MAD trapping patterns.

It carried two homing torpedoes, rocket pods and depth charges, in addition to sonobuoy sensors ejected from the tubes in the rear of the engine nacelles. Formation and 20 degree rocketing on the range or splash target was a buzz. The sound of the two Cyclones at 56" of boost was something else.

Wahh...anyone know of a rich lady with a thing for ageing naval aviators??

[tail wheel]

According to one article (http://www.bushplane.com/bushplanes/bushplanes-tracker/) the Tracker payload is:

These aircraft were later sold to Conair Aviation of Abbotsford, BC which produced the single-seat FireCat waterbomber with a fuselage-mounted 3,296 litre water/retardent tank, larger wheels and updated wiring. The later Turbo FireCat waterbomber sported twin turbo-prop engines, on-board computer delivery control and an increased water/retardent capacity of 3,455 litres.

According to the manufacturer's web site (http://www.airtractor.com/aircraft/802f), Air Tractor 802F Hopper Capacity is 820 U.S. gal (3,104 L).

Those references would appear to indicate the S2 Tracker has a payload of 3,296 litres (3,296 kg), whilst the Air Tractor has a payload of 3,104 litres, a difference in favour of the Tracker of only 6%.

Whilst the Tracker is no doubt faster, I suspect the economics are well and truly stacked in favour of the Air Tractor 802F with one 1,350 HP P&W PT6A-67AG, rather than a converted S2 Tracker with twin Wright R-1820-82WA engines.

I'd guess the cost to put the ex RAN Trackers back into the air could be astronomical, especially in Australia. Dealing with CASA would break the will and bank account of the most patient of multi millionaires!

According to the internet there is one flyable Tracker in Australia, apparently on the civil register:

S-2F Tracker, s/n 153600, RAN Historic Flight, HMAS Albatross, Nowra, New South Wales. Flyable. Civil registered but owned and operated by the Royal Australian Navy.

Does that aircraft still fly?

[Wunwing]

If the Nowra aircraft was going to fly it would have last week for the Navy Fleet Revue.The Huey flew then and it is part of the same owners fleet.
My understanding is that its complete but not flying.I've seen it do taxi trials up to a fair speed at Nowra.

HARS have another aircraft but it got bent when it was unloaded and damaged the keel beam. It is ex Qantas apprentice training so the paperwork in getting it legal would be a nightmare.

HARS is the only organisation likely to get a Tracker working as they have the tooling and expertise for Wright engines but they are a bit stretched right now with their building projects so I suspect once the Sale Trackers go that will be the end of it in Australia.Pity really.

Wunwing

[Captain Dart]

I don't think they will go anywhere, apart from static collections at a cut price. The Hawke Labor government left them corroding outside in the salt air at Nowra for years; who would have the resources AND the desire to get a Sale Tracker flying?

It would possibly be a better option importing one from the US, assuming that it had been properly stored at Davis Monthan or similar (I'd have it in RAN colours sooo fast...).

Getting one into Limited or Experimental category could be done, the major problem would be the $$$.

[Newforest2]

Photo of VH-NVX flying in 1996. Believed not to have flown recently but was taxiing in 2008 for the air show.

Photos: Grumman S-2G Tracker (G-121) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled-(RAN-Fleet/Grumman-S-2G-Tracker/1833661/L/&sid=9f8f77c76b2ce792641f0fa67102a701)

[VH-XXX]

Here is a photo of some of the trackers (see if you can spot them!) in the hangar at West Sale from 7 years ago, boy time flies.

I seem to remember someone telling me that there were only a couple of running engines, so they had to remove and re-fit them for each aircraft to bring all the aircraft back to West Sale. I'm not sure if that is true or not.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/trackers.jpg

[pithblot]

Thanks for your insights about flying them Captain Dart - yep a great posting for a kid, but plenty of old blokes would be happy with it too!

[Wunwing]

XXX
I was also told only 2 serviceable engines. I'm not sure about the props but I seem to remember there was at least 3.The aircraft had all been ferried using those 2 engines.
Wunwing

[VH-XXX]

I was also told only 2 serviceable engines. I'm not sure about the props but I seem to remember there was at least 3.The aircraft had all been ferried using those 2 engines.

That would have resulted in one hell of a lot of engineering effort to ship 12? aircraft from Nowra? to West Sale using only 2 engines..... :{ presumably they transported the engines and props back to Nowra and had a LAME on hand at both ends to perform the work.

I would have thought that they could have been craned onto the back of a semi or 11 which may have worked out cheaper.

They've been in Sale for a long time in aviation project terms so whoever bought them must have had enough spare cash to sit on that "investment" plus the transport costs which would have been a pretty penny as per above.

[Pontius]

Les Froggies do a pretty good job of water bombing with them. Normally the pilots start on the Tracker before progressing to the Canadair. The main problem for them in the South of France is the Trackers have to be filled up on the ground, whereas the Canadairs can just scoop up the Mediterranean before dropping it onto the fires that make a regular appearance in the hills of the South.

When flying in and out of Marseilles I'd see them all the time with both turbo-prop and piston engines (not mixed :) ), however, I believe nowadays they've got rid of the clattering piston thingies and all the fleet whistles instead.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/1/5/9/2147951.jpg

[alphacentauri]

An old family friend of ours was involved in getting them all to West Sale all those years ago. We oftern got phone calls on Sunday mornings to be down there in the afternoon for taxy and compass swing rides...I was only about 10 then.

He told us many stories, but from the information I can recall, they had 4 operating engines that were used to get the first couple down there. On about the 8th ferry one of the engines let go enroute and they continued on one. (Pilot was the OC of HMAS Albatross at the time) They then used only 2 engines to get the rest down there. It sounded like they all were having quite some fun doing it and all these old ex tracker pilots were coming out of the woodwork to have a go.

I worked for a guy a few years back who was very interested in buying them and converting them for airwork. It got very close to a purchase too. I never saw them myself, but I believe they are in pretty good condition. Having said that, they won't be cheap to get back in the air. As a previous poster mentioned....if I win OzLotto tomorrow night, I reckon I would consider a purchase. If I remember correctly the PT-6 conversion was priced at 1mil per engine. They did look at running them on the Cyclones for a while, but all the remaining engines are pretty much rooted. They used to take them regularly to 64 inch MAP on take off, that can't be good for an engine in the long term.

But hey...we can all dream a little

[Captain Dart]

Actually, a maximum of 56 1/2" of boost at full power off the carrier rings a bell, and that was on 'purple' 115-145 octane fuel. When purple fuel became scarce they were run on 'green' fuel, with a corresponding reduction in max allowable MAP.

They were never intentionally overboosted, as our lives depended on looking after our engines!

[tail wheel]

"If I remember correctly the PT-6 conversion was priced at 1mil per engine."

Not sure what model PT6 is installed (PT6A-67?) but I would think a PT6 conversion today would be all of one million plus a big bucket more, per engine.

The Marsh S-2F3AT Turbo Tracker had Garrett TPE331s which may be a cheaper option?

Great military aircraft they were, but I can't imagine any cost effective commercial application for the piston or turbine Tracker, except as a rich kids rather impractical toy.

[Volume]

Just found this thread during my search... So I give it a try:
Can anybody give some more information about the history of N12-153600 marked as 845 (which is obviously the wrong number, as 845 should be N12-152334) "preserved" in front of the Nowra Museum.
The last evidence of this aircraft flying I could find was from 1980.
I would like to relate the impressive levels of corrosion on that airframe to the latest date at which this aircraft was obviously still airworthy.

Thanks.

[EXBIRDY]

N12-153600/845 is an S2E damaged in the fire and not returned to service whereas N12-152334/845 is an S2G. This was one of the replacement aircraft and flew until 1984.
John

[VH-XXX]

I've been meaning to post on this for a few months but forgot. Last I saw of the Trackers down at West Sale, they were all outside awaiting pickup for scrapping after being sold via tender.

[Spotl]

Volume - ExBirdy is correct. A full list of all RAN aircraft purchased during the aircraft carrier period (approx. 394) is contained within the book 'Wings Across the Sea' by Ross Gillett published in 1988. It shows clearly that there were two 845 aircraft, one, an S2E (N12-153600) written off due fire damage 4/12/76 and one, an S2G (N12-152334) purchased with many other replacement acft in 1977

The aircraft carrier period operation included the following ships: HMAS SYDNEY, HMAS VENGEANCE and HMAS MELBOURNE. Unbeknown to me until I read the book, the RAN operated 14 Spitfires (purchased from RAAF in 1948) as a training aid for ground crews on a laid out 'dummy aircraft carrier deck' at NAS NOWRA. They were sold in the 1950's. Serial No.s for these aircraft and 20 or so other types with serial no.s, purchased and disposal dates/who supplied and where disposed are contained within this book.