Concerned parent... mortgage sized training fees

[tdubya]

I'm not from this industry at all though I do enjoy reading some of the posts about life in the air.

About a year ago, I heard from my neighbour about how their son was about to embark of flying training which would see him spending time in Coventry before going out to Jordan (I think...) for further training. Eventually to end up with a commercial airline pilot's licence. My jaw dropped when they told me that they were funding the £80,000 ish cost of the course.

That was interesting as a story about our neighbour and therefore not our problem. Until our son called us last night to tell us that he was seriously thinking about doing the same. There's some sort of open day in Southampton in November... Costs could be funded via special loans payable back over 10 years. This is on top of the student loan by the way. Further training is done in New Zealand which sounds very nice. There's another course somewhere else where the practical training is done in Arizona. And so on...

I'll be honest and say I know nothing about these courses and whether they amount to a genuine way into becoming a pilot with a good prospect of a very well paid career. My instinct is telling me that these places are tempting young people with the glamour of flying coupled with spending time in glamorous sounding places at a cost of loadsamoney... It sounds vaguely scammish to me ? I'm sure I'm wrong but would anyone be kind enough to explain more please ?

[Dash8driver1312]

Sometimes training overseas can actually be cheaper.

For example, fuel costs in the US are significantly cheaper than fuel in the UK, and this saving is reflected in the cost of aircraft hire.

There is however the cost of living in another place instead of home to take into consideration.

These courses require a lot of research before embarking on one particular route. When I made my training, I stayed in the UK, with a ground school north of London and a flight training center 30 minutes away by car. This was the best solution for me as I already had flight hours, and the schools "felt" right to me.

Having said that, a large proportion of my colleagues have made some or all of their training in Florida or other areas of the US. They had a good time, learned a lot, and saw more of the world during their training.

Aviation is expensive, and none of these am schools can guarantee work with an airline: - any of them that claim so are lying.

I hope that gives a little insight at least!

[wiggy]

I'll be honest and say I know nothing about these courses and whether they amount to a genuine way into becoming a pilot with a good prospect of a very well paid career.

Training costs are high, you are right to be careful but to be fair there are "non-scammish" :ooh: schools out there.

I would however caution against assuming he's automatically going to head into "a very well paid career".

[Genghis the Engineer]

£80k would be what's called an "Integrated" course, referred to colloquially as "zero to hero", and they do what it says on the tin - qualify somebody with no flying experience to (bar a type rating) slide into the first officer's seat in an airliner, taking around 18 months to do so.

There's an alternative self-managed route known as "Modular" which will cost a little over half that, probably take nearer 30 months, and leave the person - in theory at least - with the same licences and employment chances.

Neither is a scam, both are what they cost. However, there are and always will be a few schools best avoided. One integrated school called Cabair went bust a year or so back and left a great many students high and dry, and massively in debt.

The "Integrated versus Modular" debate is contentious and never ending. I'm not going to offer my own opinions of the differences in this thread, but will just say look on this any many other forums and you'll find much informed (and uninformed) debate on the subject.


I will offer one strong opinion however. If your son has not done any significant flying, and hasn't had a medical exam, he doesn't know:-

(1) If he can pass the class 1 (airline pilot standard) medical
(2) If he has any aptitude for flying
(3) If he enjoys flying.

Without "Yes" to all three, spending £80k, or £40k would be a really unwise investment.

So my strong advice is that he should be persuaded, with or without your financial support but certainly with your moral support, to do a PPL or Private Pilots Licence, as well as class 1 medical first and before making any commitment to anything else in the way of flying training.


My other equally strong advice is that any flying training should be paid for "as he goes" and never be in credit to the school by more than a few thousand pounds at a time, and ideally not at-all. That said, I'd guess that the scheme your son is looking at is the CTC wings one - as you described it is fairly accurate and they do seem, right now, to be one of the more sensible integrated providers, with a scheme which essentially creates a position of indentured labour for a period of time. Details here: Training | CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.com/europe/courses/cadet_programme/training) ; it is a particular model that has worked for a lot of people, however uncomfortable it looks.

[mad_jock]

There is a sticky thread at the top of the forum which is a bit of a hamster wheel about the pro's and cons of the two main ways to become a civilian pilot.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/403410-modular-v-integrated-merged-look-here-before-starting-new-thread.html

There are those of us that are dead against taking such risks with the family assets. And those who say its acceptable because it is the only way to get into flying big jets quickly.

Its not just 80k there are other costs on top of that. They may also have to find 30k for a type rating as well. But there are cheaper ways to get the license. The training and being trained is in some ways the easy part. The getting the first job is the biggest hurdle.

I won't start down the line of selling you one way or the other as it is all covered in the thread I have linked to. Unfortunately you will have to wade through that thread and see who's opinion rings true for you and your family.

But remember they are only opinions based on previous history and what people can see from there own niche of the industry currently. 12 months is a long time in aviation and 24 months a life time away.

The decision is a gamble what ever you choose. The pro's and cons are all covered in that thread multiple times.

And to add the advice to go and get a class one medical at Gatwick is extremely good there is no point even looking at all the options if your son can't get that first hurdle. There have been many many wannabie pilots that's as far as they get.

Initial Class 1 (Professional Pilot) Medical Examination | Medical | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1859&pagetype=90&pageid=527)

[Cows getting bigger]

The headline figure is £80-100K. Some of the variables have already been highlighted but unfortunately this is an industry which recognises there are enough people (eejits?) who will pay silly amounts of money to get a chance at flying an airline.

My main point is that there are NO GUARANTEES. Sure, some schools have half a foot in the door with the airlines but the reality is that it is easy for individuals to fall by the wayside. There is a never-ending argument about integrated vs modular (worth reading, especially if you suffer from insomnia) and each route has advantages. The bottom line is that you need to accept that you may spend £80K and walk away with nothing other than a fancy bit of paper saying "Licence". Of course, the system does work and there are many people who spend the money, get a job and recover their investment.

I work in the flying training industry and see pilots who get jobs and others who don't having completed the same, expensive training. One other thing, our industry survives on selling flight training and some companies are very good with their sales pitch. Just remember there are NO GUARANTEES.

PS. Never pay anything up front that you can't afford to lose.

[mad_jock]

Come on boys this will just end up the same way as all the rest have gone.

The guy needs to

1. Take his lad to a flight school for a trial flight to actually see if he likes it.

2. If he does get a class 1 medical sorted out.

3. Then decided what the plan of attack is.

[Linda Mollison]

It is probably worthwhile visiting the Flyer Professional Flight exhibition on the 26 October - 2013 LONDON PROFESSIONAL FLIGHT TRAINING EXHIBITION (http://exhibitions.flyer.co.uk/london_26_oct_2013.htm). It is held twice a year at the Sofitel hotel at Heathrow and lasts from 1000 to 1700.

Most (but not all) Approved Training Organisations (ATOs) will be there, both those providing integrated training and those providing modular training. There are also a number of seminars which you and your son can attend.

It is an ideal opportunity to learn more about what flying training entails.


Note to moderators: This is not an advertising post - I have no links to Flyer at all (although the ATO I run will have a stand at the exhibition)

[jez d]

To assist in your research, I suggest that you and your son visit the Professional Flight Training Exhibition at Heathrow T5 on 26 October.

Many of the leading flight training organisations will be present to offer advice concerning what training routes are available towards becoming a commercial pilot. Caveat emptor applies !

There are no fully-sponsored training courses available currently, where an airline pays for a pre-selected cadet's training, but there are occasionally 'mentored' training courses offered by airlines partnering with a flying school. These include pre-selection of the cadet prior to entering training, which is generally a good indicator that the cadet has the requisite skills to pass training and become a capable airline pilot. And while these courses don't tend to include financial assistance to cover training fees, they are the nearest thing available to a guarantee of employment on graduation - although this will be dependent on industry conditions at the time of graduation so, again, caveat emptor.

The most common of these airline mentored courses is now the Multi-Crew Pilot Licence (MPL) and I recommend that you and your son conduct some research into the licence. Take into account however that competition for a place on these schemes is fierce and so your son will need to be able to demonstrate that he is exactly the right sort of person that an airline is looking to employ as a pilot, and thorough research will stand you in good stead as to what skills/attributes your son should be looking to develop before applying.

Good luck !

Edited to say that Linda beat me to it !

[mad_jock]

And if any school tells you there is going to be a pilot shortage soon walk away from them.

There will never be a low hours pilot shortage. Experienced crew with additional quals such as training Captain or TRI/TRE there might be.

[Cows getting bigger]

Our school will also be at Heathrow. My only tip is to talk to as man\y schools as possible and try to scratch beneath the surface.

[jez d]

There is already a significant shortage of experienced pilots. Chinese airlines are paying contract captains upwards of $270,000 per annum currently.

An alarming statistic came from ICAO Secretary General Raymond Benjamin in Jan at the ASEAN Aviation Training & Education Summit in Jarkata, that 30% of the total aviation workforce will retire between 2013 & 2014, something which John Allen from the FAA said was "astounding and dramatic" and that "we don't have a system to address the issue."

A sobering thought !

[mad_jock]

Not really for just starting pilot in there career.

the main problem with China is that they really don't want western crews over there and that there is a conflict of interest between the aviation groups which control things. One side wants them and the other doesn't

There is a huge failure rate of medicals as the westerners don't fit Chinese body profiles. And even if you do get in the door if a local looses face you will be out the door in a second.

that 30% of the total aviation workforce will retire between 2013 & 2014, something which John Allen from the FAA said was "astounding and dramatic" and that "we don't have a system to address the issue."

That's across all jobs related, the pilot side of things have been churning out pilots if we needed them or not for years. There will never be a shortage of qualified 200 hour without a type rating pilots in the EU.

[mad_jock]

Well maybe yes maybe no.

But as your obviously a regular poster who has registered with a new login. Who maybe doesn't like the way the thread is going. Which for once is relatively balanced

I think people would be surprised how many parents do actually come into the forum when researching what thier children are getting themselves into.

We are never ever going to change the minds of 17-25 year olds who have been sold anything through the marketing.

But we can give a broad range of opinions to the parents so that they can make a decision of the risk to the family's capital. Yes this will mean loads of kids won't get what they want. And more than likely a lot of this age group wish that a lot of us who are flying would just go away and not post negative things about the job and the various methods of training.

But such is life.

[tdubya]

This OP is definitely the genuine article :) guys. Thank you all for your replies which as Jock said were very balanced. I'm sorry for being slow to acknowledge.
Your initial thoughts have been very helpful.

26th October sounds like a good event to go to but a bit short notice. It's a twice yearly event so I guess there might be another one in the spring ?

"There's a shortage of pilots" is something my neighbours son told me too. Not too dissimilar to the line put out by Schools of Plumbing a few years ago as people were seduced by the high rates that they were charging at the time. We will treat this with caution.

I was chatting to my hairdresser about this yesterday expecting a bit of tea and sympathy. What I got in return was a story about a son of a friend of hers who had undergone this training (paid for by loan..) and is doing well as a BA pilot. More balance...

We need to engage with our son as he goes through his research and decision making. Your replies have helped to get me started.

[Cows getting bigger]

tdubya, they also do shows in Leeds and Dublin.

[mad_jock]

The shortage of pilots thing is all linked to a Boeing report issued a few years back and just reissued. A search on here will give you the workers in the industry view on its claims.

It was a stock market report for projected sales.

There are some sides of it that do hold an element of truth. The engineering side of things with getting fresh meat into the industry has been neglected for years and the age range is quite top heavy.

But for the pilot training side of things its been latched onto as the number one marketing fact for selling the courses. They have even got the report in through a back door in a training provider conference that's linked to ICAO which is the United Nations body which deals with global standards. So now they try and claim it is an ICAO position that there is going to be a shortage.

The pilot side of things supply has consistently out stripped demand for the last 20-30 years.

If your lad can get on one of the schemes which pre selects and then provides an almost guaranteed (nothing is ever guaranteed though) job afterwards that is about as low risk as it gets these days. But even then things may go wrong if the economy takes a dip or some other calamity occurs. Which is what your hairdressers friends lad managed to get into.

I think for BA there was initially over 15,000 applicants and out of that about 1500-2000 actually went through the selection and in the end about 100 were placed in the mentored training process. So its a pretty exclusive club to get into.

Have fun with your lad as I suspect he has already been bought in by the school marketing and what his peers have told him. And I know what a bugger I was at that age when I thought I knew something was correct.

If you want some sport at these shows they will normally have a few token youngsters in pilot uniform at the big stands. Start asking them questions about there take home pay, how much debt they have, what there monthly repayments are. And finally how many pilots they know that they trained with that are still looking for work.

Very quickly they will drop eye contact, clam up, look for escape and one of the school people will take over. Read into that what you will.

[Luke SkyToddler]

tdubya welcome to pprune, you've come to the right place to do your research if nothing else.

I suggest if you're looking at funding your guy to the tune of "mortgage sized" amounts of money, you spend quite a few hours reading over this website and read as many of the tales of triumph and tales of woe as you possibly can, to get an idea of the true state of the industry. Do check people's post histories though, there are a few folk on this forum who masquerade as something they're not, in order to push their own particular training scheme :ouch:

It's very important that you understand that this "£80 to £100K" thing is only the start, it gets you the licence but it certainly doesn't guarantee anything at the end. It is the cost of buying the lottery ticket if you will ... you aren't going to win anything without it, but once you have it you still have to hope your numbers come up! And like most lotteries, many many people who've spent all their money walk away disappointed. For every genuine pilot job at the entry level, there are hundreds of qualified candidates chasing it.

By all means attend as many flight training exhibitions as possible but always keep in the back of your mind, the ONE thing that everyone exhibiting in that place has in common, is their desire to relieve you of that mortgage-sized sum of money. You won't hear much in the way of balanced views of industry prospects in there.

For what it's worth, I have 8,000ish hours and currently flying airbuses out in the far east on a contract job, been flying for 20 years, not that means anything but if there's one thing i CAN tell you with absolute conviction - if anyone you speak to uses "airline growth in Asia" as a justification for westerners going and learning to fly, walk away because they don't have a clue what they are talking about. YES there's a shortage of highly experienced captains in China / Asia. There's a number of reasons for that, but it's not to do with an overall shortage of pilots - it's mainly to do with the fact that myself and most of my highly experienced colleagues will not touch China with a 40 foot pole, due to concerns about safety, lifestyle and dishonest employment practice. There are very few expat co-pilots out here, (and none on the Chinese mainland), the Chinese are cranking out many many hundreds of their own cadet pilots every year.

All the best and feel free to ask any questions you may have :ok:

ps mad-jock's words are wise, heed them well.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I was told recently that one sizeable European integrated school has not had a graduate find a flying job with an airline in the past five years (approximately 450 new JAA/EASA CPL holders). I know the market is weak at the moment but this is not very encouraging in view of the shortage the same organisation promotes as part of it's sales pitch. And that's only one of the schools.

I'm sure you were told that, but it sounds incredibly unlikely. Plus your post belongs in the modular .v. integrated thread I think.

[limesoda]

I heard that the forthcoming 'shortage' will be, for the most part, a consequence of the European Working Time Directive? The increase of the Airline Pilots retirement age from 55 to 65? Just a thought. :confused:

[32SQDN]

As a parent having previously been in your position, I can fully appreciate your concerns.
In 2007 my son was made aware of the BACF mentored scheme whilst working at Birmingham Airport. He applied, along with another 3,500 - 4,000 potential trainees and was very fortunate to get one of the 4 positions available. He did his training out in Jerez (FTE) and completed the course in December 2008. During his training nearly everyone on his course lost their jobs due to the economic downturn. My son was not guaranteed a job but was took on by BA, completed his Type Rating and has not looked back since. Some of his fellow course members have still not got jobs as pilots and have had to pay more to keep their licences current.
He was in the fortunate position of being able to borrow the training costs from me (still waiting to be paid back!) Salaries are not what you might expect, given the high training cost. He regularly tells me he is doing his dream job and feels very lucky.
There has already been a lot of good advice on here already and I think it starts with sitting down with him and taking the romance out of the job and hitting him with hard facts as to where he may be if it doesn't go to plan.
Good luck!

[Private jet]

The last real pilot shortage was back in the late 80's. Back then people were walking straight into airline positions the same day that their "blue book" came through the letterbox! Those days are long gone. Since then the supply of "fresh meat" over demand has gradually got greater and greater despite expansion of the industry and airline pay and benefits have naturally been eroded. Yes, it is still possible to have good pay and lifestyle in companies like BA but your son will need to get onto the future pilot programme to achieve that and competition is very intense to get in. The low cost carriers are, to my mind to be avoided. In future it will all be pay to fly schemes and zero hour contracts & thats after £80-100k spent. I'm told some people have had to go bankrupt just to afford to feed themselves! Not good. Training schools only make money training people, after that they dont care and a commercial pilots licence is useless without a job at the end of it. Yes, of course, aircraft need pilots and they dont appear by magic out of nowhere but please understand some will go straight into a super job, others will get an ok job, work very hard and perhaps move several times and gradually build their career up, others will NEVER get a job. All this depends less on ability (all have met the same standard) but more on things like right place at the right time & does your face fit. I'll admit that i got a lucky break right after i qualified. Some these days, many in fact are not so fortunate. Its career "Russian roulette" in aviation at the moment. I cannot tell you what the exact odds are, but its become a very high stakes game and there are certainly no guarantees. Would i start out to become a pilot these days? NO.

[limesoda]

Your opinion. I think nowadays the introduction of MPL tagged programmes, cadet schemes (please dear god don't think for a second that only BA offer it) are a fantastic way to ensure the safety of ones investment. Aer Lingus have their scheme, Thomson, Virgin and all of which offer you a great salary. I think many views on Pprune are very negative and in some cases believe that the opinions of the more 'established' pilots are not that much use to potential cadets when opting for flight training at the newer integrated schools. It was so different back in the day and times continue to change. However there is growth. If your willing to travel, funding, don't have the responsibility of a family and have the drive to succeed then you can make it. Just my opinion. :yuk:

[Kelly Hopper]

It's very simple:
If you have worked and worked and that perverbial brick wall is still there then this is a :mad: career.
If however you "walked" a licence thanks to the bank of mum and dad and then landed a career with BA of course this is the best, easiest thing since sliced bread and everyone should do it.
But what are the odds? How many are in the first bracket compared to the second?
My guess is about 10,000 to 1?
So, do a feel lucky? Well do ya p@@k? :p

[mad_jock]

some cases believe that the opinions of the more 'established' pilots are not that much use to potential cadets when opting for flight training at the newer integrated schools.

I was only doing that because of the eyes blinkered mode not liking what they hear.

Trust the group that wants to extract 80k plus out of them or a group of people who have absolutely no financial involvement one way or the other. H'mm don't like what one group is saying I think I will say they don't know what they are talking about.

We are never ever going to change the minds of 17-25 year olds who have been sold anything through the marketing.

About sums it up really.

[poke53281]

About a year ago, I heard from my neighbour about how their son was about to embark of flying training which would see him spending time in Coventry before going out to Jordan (I think...) for further training. Eventually to end up with a commercial airline pilot's licence. My jaw dropped when they told me that they were funding the £80,000 ish cost of the course.


So OP what happened to your "neighbour" Have you moved or fell out with them ?

[tdubya]

Re: neighbour.

Not at all, you can bet this will be on the agenda next time we meet at the garden fence. As for their son, he's a few months into his training which he started during the summer. It's early days yet.

[contacttower118.2]

We are never ever going to change the minds of 17-25 year olds who have been sold anything through the marketing.

To be honest I think the marketing has very little to do with it.

I think it convinces many to go to the shiny integrated schools rather than the local airfield shed but in terms of actually making the decision to embark upon flight training of one sort of another with the aim of becoming a commercial pilot I am convinced that the majority want to become pilots so badly that barring a total lack of resources will find a way to do so almost no matter what they are told for the simple reason that from their perspective you only live once and therefore you have to follow your dream. A lot will have had that dream long before any marketing has had a chance to touch them...I know I did.

You may well roll your eyes at that but from the perspective of a recent university graduate I can tell you that no profession, not one that I know of, inspires anything like the level enthusiasm that flying does. I have yet to hear anyone talk about banking, or the law, or business consulting or whatever modern day well remunerated profession you care to mention like people do about flying.

I have also met many career changers who put their well earned money into paying to pursue what they wanted to. For many of those it made no logic (in a rational sense) to do so other than that they knew they wanted to. None of them expect a 'pot of gold' and indeed neither do the younger wannabees. They just want to do it. Simple as that. Because that is what flying does to people.

Sadly that is what leaves the profession vulnerable to poor Ts&Cs, especially at the bottom of the experience scale, because wannabees are prepared to suffer high levels of pain to get a foot in the door and realise that dream.

[Genghis the Engineer]

You may well roll your eyes at that but from the perspective of a recent university graduate I can tell you that no profession, not one that I know of, inspires anything like the level enthusiasm that flying does. I have yet to hear anyone talk about banking, or the law, or business consulting or whatever modern day well remunerated profession you care to mention like people do about flying.*

The RAF used to have a fantastic recruiting poster showing a small boy running along wih his arms stretched out. Underneath, apart from the RAF logo it said

"Can you honestly ever remember playing chartered accountants."


That said I've met motor racing engineers, research scientists and a few others as enthusiastic about what they do as aviation people can be. But certainly not bankers or beancounters.

[Bealzebub]

That was interesting as a story about our neighbour and therefore not our problem. Until our son called us last night to tell us that he was seriously thinking about doing the same. There's some sort of open day in Southampton in November... Costs could be funded via special loans payable back over 10 years. This is on top of the student loan by the way. Further training is done in New Zealand which sounds very nice. There's another course somewhere else where the practical training is done in Arizona. And so on...

I'll be honest and say I know nothing about these courses and whether they amount to a genuine way into becoming a pilot with a good prospect of a very well paid career. My instinct is telling me that these places are tempting young people with the glamour of flying coupled with spending time in glamorous sounding places at a cost of loadsamoney... It sounds vaguely scammish to me ? I'm sure I'm wrong but would anyone be kind enough to explain more please ?

A limited number of airlines offer "cadet" programmes. These are fast track routes into an airline career. They are limited in number, highly dependent on the airlines own projected forecasts, and extremely competitive. For those candidates that are successful, they can often be an excellent route into a well paid career. However, they provide limited selection opportunities for a range of airlines, all of whom set their own terms and conditions, and all of whom are subject to the vast number of variables inherent in a volatile marketplace. There are absolutely no guarantees that an individual who successfully embarks on one of these programmes, will find a placement upon graduation. Whatever may be the intent, the reality will absolutely depend upon the end customers (airlines) requirements at that given point in time.

In the UK, there are three principle providers of full time training courses tied in with these programmes. They are: CAE Oxford (Oxford and Mesa Arizona); FTE Jerez (Jerez Spain); CTC Aviation (Southampton, Hamilton New Zealand, and Bournemouth). These are the "Big Three" players in this market, and are usually contracted (individually or collectively) to provide the training courses for these cadet programmes.

The "special loans" aren't particularly special at all. They are Second mortgages (or First mortgages if the purchaser doesn't already have one.) There are banks that specialize in formulating loans directed at this market, BBVA being the main player, but the fundamental loan is simply secured borrowing. There are some strict criteria attached to these loans, and they wouldn't be either available or suitable to everybody in any event.

The "Big Three" all have "Airline partners." These are airlines that either currently, or in the past, have taken graduates into their employment (cadet) programmes. Sometimes graduates appear in their statistics simply by virtue of the fact that said graduate eventually found a job at that airline, even though the school itself may have played no part in facilitating that transition. An airlines past plans may have no bearing on their current or future plans. Similarly no airline is locked to a particular school, and although there may be a historical association, it is quite conceivable that an airline can switch its own training provider as it sees fit. That said, it is well worth researching where those airlines that are recruiting cadets are sourcing their cadets from.

I have worked with graduates from these programmes for over 15 years. I have followed training courses from start to finish. I have visited all of the training facilities of one of the "Big Three" and seen how they market themselves, how they select, how they train, how they administer, and how they deal with successful and unsuccessful candidates.

I have seen what happens to the graduates who transition into employment with us, and the terms and conditions that those "ex-cadet" pilots are contracted to. As a senior airline captain and a father, that gives me a good perspective and I would say a qualified, experienced and well researched one. However, it is a particular pathway, and it isn't a route that the vast majority of aspirants to this industry will follow. The reasons for that are many: It is highly competitive and selective; it is very expensive; it has its own risk profile that will be unacceptable to many.

As others have already said, there is plenty of reading available to you, even within these forums. A lot of the previous advice is eminently sensible. Cadet programmes are not the only pathway to becoming a commercial pilot, and that is a subject for many other threads.

Maybe he will change his mind tomorrow.

Good luck!

[Piltdown Man]

My eldest son would like to be a pilot. I'll help him all I can, but not with cash. That is for a few reasons. Firstly, I'll have to help all I my kids and I don't have the cash. Secondly it's a gamble I don't want to take. He will almost certainly finish a course and get a licence, but he'll the have to buy a type rating and by the looks of things - pay to work! That's not a job. Worse than that, there's every chance that with only a few hours (350 on type) he'll still be looking for a job. I'm not prepare to put our house on the line for that. Thirdly, if he pays, he'll have more of an incentive to work hard on his course. The harder you work, the better you get!

I truly feel very sorry for the poor souls learning to fly at the moment. The market is awash with newbies, all waiting to fly for nothing. My advice would be pay for him to get a Gas Safe Registation & Part P so that he can charge top rate in the building trade. That will give a return on the investment and with future income, fund a modular course. This will also make him value what he's doing, what he's done and make him more interesting to fly with. It will also mean he can walk away from a job offering pathetic Ts & Cs.

Remember, the easy bit it learning to fly. The difficult bit is getting a job and at the moment the hardest thing of all is making it pay!

Best of luck.

[JonEverton]

To all concerned parents.

I strongly advise you to read the thread I started detailing my experiences of the employment market post training:

fATPL Now What ? (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/525267-fatpl-now-what.html#post8089567)

I ditched a decent job and profession to follow the dream.
I heavily researched the job market and knew what I was getting into.

Things change quickly in aviation, namely the minimum experience requirements to be employable. This is not on a whim by the airlines, this is on the whole driven my the few big insurance conglomerates and more importantly the P&I Clubs / Co-Operatives.

Flying is a hard nut to crack, It is very much the catch 22, chicken and egg scenario for the newly qualified.

My situation is explained in my post link above, I have real commitments that (most) 19 year olds do not have to contend with such as house and family.

My advice is do it young.
BUT if you are a parent about to blow £120k on an integrated course I would sit your lad down and just explain how hard the general job market it and how long it takes to earn that sort of money.

If your nipper hasn't had a proper job and doesn't understand the value of the training then make them go find a job and learn some life lessons for a year before pumping your retirement / property equity / cash into a flash in the pan dream. They will value the whole experience much more in the end.

I have seen it - teenagers on these integrated (and modular) courses that have never had a job and don't have a clue about making a cup of tea let alone the realities of getting up and earning a wage.

Completing a training course is one thing - real life is another story as we all know.

[limesoda]

Of course Luke Skytoddler my opinions as a young cadet will never be valued on this site and i apologise if i sound 'arrogant'. I was simply stating an opinion. And this is a view that from what i have seen, is taken by many non-pprune users, simply down to the fact that some (many) of the opinions on here can be negative. I agree fully that loans on a parents household is absurd, however if MPL tagged schemes and cadet programmes aren't good enough nowadays, what will be? Its never going to improve! :ouch:

[TonyDavis]

Ok here is my two bobs worth.

I started my flying in 1972 with a PPL. Went to the USA to get a licence (cost £3000) and then onto bush flying in Africa. When I had enough hours (1500 then) got a British licence, did some charter flying and got a job with Dan Air in Aberdeen. Progresed up the ladder and became a 727 Captain with them. Was sent to Australia and joined Ansett ending with them as a check and training Captain and flying a 767 on long haul.

Many of my friends have been killed bush flying. Both the airlines I worked for went bust (no retirement benefits, little pension) my health suffered and I failed my medical. Went into training industry and met many unsavory crooks.

However it was a great lifestyle and I have seen most of the world and stayed in most of the best hotels in the world.

Would I do it again with hindsight NO.

The industry has changed. Automation has made the job very boring. T&C's are bad at the bottom and getting worse. Competition for the few jobs available is intense.

If your son is adamant that he wants to do it, then he must get himself on a course where someone else is paying for it and there is a guaranteed job at the end. Do not under any circumstances get yourself into huge debt unless you a very wealthy and can afford to write off £100k plus.

[mad_jock]

A couple of company's from the old Atlantic group still run fugly schemes.

yes yes I know you don't get to fly anything shiny. But I have never heard of a ex-fug struggle to find employment and progress up the ladder if they so wish. There are more than a few of them who go up and then come back down again back to the :mad: pilot jobs mainly because they were bored :mad: and not using most of their hard earned piloting skill set.

But the fugly scheme isn't for everyone. Its an extremely hard way of doing things and you require an exceptional level of innate pilot ability and capacity, an extremely thick skin, and a work ethic which seems to be very rare in youngsters these days.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Your last comment is a bit unfair Jock. As a fairly active observer of modern youth I'd say that the distribution on the scale "bone idle" to "workoholic" is pretty much what it always is.

For an industry greybeard to accuse a keen youngster of having a poor work ethic is a bit like a giraffe accusing a horse of having a short neck. They're as keen and hardworking as we were, we've just had more practice.


(That said, I agree about the rest.)

[mad_jock]

G if you knew what the guys had to do in there fuglyship you would know where I was coming from.

It wasn't a slur on the youngsters.

There first type ratings were on the grass cutter for COV airport and the photocopier. And most of them racked up 1000's of miles per month at night shifting the freighter crews about.

And if anyone needed 10 ton of sand shifted by hand guess who got to do it. And if they were lucky they got to do a 12 hour ops shift as well.

The work is/was varied with very tenuous links to anything aviation related.

And it was all to be done with a smile.

To be honest I don't think I could have done it, certainly not with a smile or without numerous swear words.

But......

The ones that made it through all turned out to be exceptional all round pilots with PIC skills far more developed than you would expect with the hours on the CV.

[Don_Apron]

Avoid paying too much money up front. Here is the reason.

About 20 years or so ago a quite prominent training outfit in Kent. when on their backs, legs up. I heard from a very reliable source, one week before this happened, a chap handed over £60,000 for his son to get a license. That was the last he saw of it. They must have known this was about to happen but they still took the poor guys money!

If that had been me I would have tracked down the money people there and would probably have swung for them.

[Halfwayback]

Please stick to the thread topic!

HWB
Moderator

[mad_jock]

I would have thought that company's taking mortgage sized amounts of cash off people then going bust before the student has completed the training course is of a concern to any parent.

And there is a bit of a history of it happening to quite large schools with little or no warning.

SFT and CABAIR are prime examples or a whole load of people being out of large amounts of money.

[Don_Apron]

Totally correct.

Leopards never change their spots either.

[TeaTowel]

Don't forget PTC in Ireland last year, still advertising and taking full course payments right up until they closed.

[Cows getting bigger]

Any reputable school should only take cash on delivery, small staged payments up-front or shove the cash in escrow.

Taking cash when you know it is only going to fill a hole that is already in your P&L is trading in insolvency; in most countries there's a law against that.

[Mikehotel152]

For reasons that are well-documented and debated on this forum, the pay on offer to the vast majority of airline pilots is not so much 'on the wane' as in 'free-fall'. Why? Newly qualified commercial pilots are ten-a-penny and after spending £100,000 on training these eager people are at the mercy of the capitalist free-market.

Whilst there are a few desperate people willing to 'pay to fly' to gain sufficient experience, there will be a far greater number of perfectly nice and adequately talented folk who will have no option for employment but to accept a position with low pay. After all, some form of income is needed to repay the loans.

Only a handful of candidates will enter well-paying airlines as cadets. Note: most of these opportunities require aptitude testing and selection interviews before the huge expenditure on training fees. As far as I know, provided you complete the training to a satisfactory standard the job is guaranteed. Not always.

For the vast majority who complete the commercial pilot training (and let's face it, the CPL/IR is within the ability of a lot of people) before they receive a job offer, if any, a word or two of warning: it is alleged that one major European airline is now offering newly qualified commercial pilots a basic salary of £22,000 plus duty pay (say another £12,000) for a return on £100-120,000 training costs. :ugh:

In summary, you normally have to be bright, articulate and well-educated to apply for the jobs worth having and very lucky to be successful. If my son wants to follow me into the profession I'll only support him if he goes through this route because any other flying jobs (including my own) are already under-paid and things will only get worse.

[Luke SkyToddler]

It is "alleged" that one major European airline is paying £22,000 plus £12,000 flight pay for newly qualified CPL's? And you're warning people OFF applying for that? :confused:

I'd say if you are a fresh CPL and you can get that salary then grab onto that job like a starfish to a rock and never let it go because you are very very lucky indeed. Haven't you been reading the threads about the CTC flexi crew guys earning a few hundred a month if they're lucky, and the Vueling guys sleeping in their cars at the Barcelona runway threshold for weeks on end, because they can't afford to rent a house?

I spent 5 years as a flying instructor lucky to clear £1,000 a month in summer and half that in winter ... my first turboprop paid £19,000 I think, even when I joined Easyjet under the old TRSS scheme the salary was somewhere in the mid £30s depending on flight pay ... and I had already 10 years and a few thousand hours at that stage. Salary is much lower than that now, under these horrible zero hours contracts that all new guys have to accept.

Nothing is new under the sun, when it comes to low pay for starting positions in aviation. All that's changed is the low pay cancer has now crept into big jets like B737s and A320s, where it was once confined to crappy little bug smashers.

[Don_Apron]

There is a school of thought, which I subscribe to.

You need a licence to be eligible to be considered for a position. Unless you are extremely "bright" or connected, as mentioned above. In this climate, a lot of people are not going to be trained that probably would have, because it is too risky. No jobs.

If things turn for the better and the job market picks up, there will be a shortage of pilots. Boom and bust. It takes about 3 years on average from 0 to frozen and IR. Yes it's a gamble. Aren't a lot of things in life??

"Intelligence" A good education is not necessarily an indication of high intelligence. One is born with intelligence. Anyone with an ounce of smarts, wouldn't be near aviation in the first instance. Not today.

[mad_jock]

There would need to be an addition of over 600 airframes to the European market alone to even make a dent in the current supply of CPL/IR's sub 300 hours that are available.

A 1000 new airframes you might start getting a issue with running out of FO's But you would have run out of Captains and type rating capacity before that.

So even if there is a boom its not going to have that much affect.

And 3 years is a bit long 12-14 months is more than do able for modular.

[Don_Apron]

Fair point.

That bad? That is bad.

[mad_jock]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Licensing_Transactions_April_2011_March_2012.pdf

That's the numbers for 2011-2012 for the UK only. 1357 CPL's issued. Which is up by nearly 200 from the previous year.

You can't really read anything into the Type ratings issued because its for all CPL's out there and not just first type ratings.

They used to publish an age and sex but stopped that from 2008.

You can't get anything else out of the CAA even with FOI because they claim its commercially sensitive.

[Don_Apron]

Things are real rough out there.

This site below, tends to re enforce your claim.

This is Afghanistan the advert refers. Not London, Paris or NY, for e.g. Wippe!!!

AviationJobs.Me Flight Crew (http://www.aviationjobs.me/)

[Mikehotel152]

It is "alleged" that one major European airline is paying £22,000 plus £12,000 flight pay for newly qualified CPL's? And you're warning people OFF applying for that?

My mistake Luke. Those are € figures, so take off something like 10% for £s. Of course that's after paying for your integrated course, a €35k type-rating and you'll be paying 40% tax with no pension or other benefits.

The point is that pay for flying a medium-sized airliner is low and is getting lower; which is highly relevant to the question raised in the original post and subsequent discussion.

Commercial aviation involves extremely expensive training, low chances of getting any job, and even a job that you regard as so fantastic that it should be grabbed like the proverbial starfish to a rock is not affording fair reward for the job performed.

You're absolutely right Don: A good education is not evidence of intelligence, but it is evidence of hard work and application, and when coupled with a little intelligence it is what gets you into the cadet schemes for the likes of BA. Believe me, when employers touting a handful of jobs to thousands of applicants have a choice between equally intelligent candidates, yet only one is articulate and well-educated, we all know who will get the job. That applies to all industries - except football perhaps...

[Don_Apron]

Good point.

What a great shame the self improver route was taken from the youngsters of today, when the JAR's came into force. Namely abinio instructing.

Unless you come from a privileged and a wealthy background, getting into professional civilian aviation is almost impossible to achieve. Is this the way to go, when selecting people for their abilities they were born with, right across the board? I say no. far from it. You mention football. They nurture God given talent, from a very early age.

I know a person, who was bought up in a very poor family, left school at 15, soloed when he was 16, PPL at 17, CPL and 1st job at 19. Full ATPL 23. Now that to me is a sign of dedication and hard work, against all the odds. Of course this would never be allowed to happen today.

At the inception of the JAA, at least one potential member state wanted a University degree mandatory before one was able to be the holder of a senior professional license. Fortunately the UK CAA and others, slapped them down, for now.

When I started, a degree was looked upon as not all that helpful and was a contributory factor in being a late starter.I.E., Low hours commiserate with age. The best time to learn the trade is when we are young. Younger the better.

[Genghis the Engineer]

If it's not a daft question, what's the difference - apart from £1500 to a DL TK provider - between modular now and the old "self improver" route? Paid instruction on a PPL is legal again, albeit that CPL TK has to be done before FI.

[Don_Apron]

Very impressive letters after your name Genghis! Hard to compete with that.I do have marriage X 2. That's about it. :}

As for your Q. not sure.

[Genghis the Engineer]

My point being that, I think, self-improver is pretty much still there - it just got rebranded.

[mad_jock]

your right G. Its just rebranded.

But the traditional jobs which were "self improver" jobs are now getting loads of integrated trained applicants as well.

8 years ago you never saw an oxford/FTE CV on a small TP's airline Chief Pilot's desk. Now there's hundreds of them.

[FANS]

The problem isn't the old self improver route disappearing, it's the FI-twin-TP-Jet route disappearing.

The days of a local TP airline are far gone - with only a handful now.

Equally, airlines are happy to take huge volumes of new cadets into the RHS of a jet, whereas once this was an exception.

It is only now the dust has settled on the lo-co boom and financial recession, that we are seeing the reality of pilot recruitment and T&Cs. As those recruited via CTC 10 years ago progress up the ranks, this trend will continue.

There was a period pre 2007 when people were moving quickly out of FI jobs, but now if your first job after training isn't a jet job, you've got an uphill struggle.

[Don_Apron]

Fan

With my poor English, Your point re the FI, TP etc., route, was what I was trying to convey.

Thank God for spell checkers, as my posts would be even worse.