Failed class 1

[JoshG]

Hello all,
I have just returned from Gatwick without the issue of my class 1 medical certificate. Everything was fine in all the tests carried out and would have been signed off if it wasn't for the final calculation of my BMI done by the doctor. She told me that if it was down to her she would pass me with no issues as I am athletic in build and fit as a flea, but her hands are tied as the CAA say automatic fail to any BMI over 35.
Just for clarification I am 5'7", 16st 10lb and have played rugby most of my life, recent body composition tests showed 24% body fat which is within what is considered to be normal range so I'm not a whingeing crisp and pie addict feeling hard done by:*
I have a letter from the chief instructor at one of the schools I have visited stating that he has flown with me and my size is no issue.

So the big questions are:
Who can I turn to to try and get some sense out of the CAA?
Is there an appeal process worth pusuing?
Has anyone else experienced this and what hoops need jumping through?

Many thanks in advance.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Probably not worth it.

Their rules are as stupid as the police government etc etc

Im the same as you, i have been told im "technically obese" yeah but how much fat?

Muscle weighs more than fat but docs are still going on charts from the bloody 50's when men weighed as much as women do now. ( No offence to anyone in that age group)

[gunbus]

JOSHG;

So the big questions are:
Who can I turn to to try and get some sense out of the CAA?

A THANKLESS TASK I FEAR.

[JoshG]

Pilot.Lyons, did you get your class 1 issued eventually?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Obvious answer is to lose weight.....

[JoshG]

Please refer to my original post, my body fat mass is within normal limits and being "fat" is not the issue, my build and the subsequent inaccuracy of the BMI scale is the issue. Even if I was to be at zero body fat I would still be classed as obese and the same problem would exist.

[cavortingcheetah]

Make sure you get a letter or some such piece of paperwork from the CAA stating that you've lost your medical purely on the grounds of weight/obesity.
This will enable you to qualify any box you might have to tick in the future which answers the question as to whether you've ever failed a medical.
Then go and lose some weight, perhaps 10 Kgs or three month's dieting?
You could of course just go and sit on a couch for ten weeks or so and let the muscle turn to fat?
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/bmi_tbl.pdf

[reegreen]

Did the doctor in Gatwick calculate your body composition percentage or did she just directly calculated your BMI without taking into consideration your body composition percentage?

[JoshG]

Reegreen, she just calculated the BMI without taking body composition into consideration.

[cockney steve]

Maybe, with your appeal, a suggestion,that if your appeal is not considered properly, a plaint to the European Court of human Rights, will be your next move

This would tie up a lot of their resources, trying to defend the indefensible
The big chiefs would be very upset at being enrolled , unknowingly, in the uphill -5h1t-kicker's club. the organisation would lose face among their international Peers.....all in all, they have made a mistake, their rule is outmoded and needs changing.

the button needs a good push in order to get someone in the ivory towers to kick some asses and do their job properly.

fight them, they don't like a 5h1t -storm, especially when it highlights their own failings.

[Don_Apron]

Sad outcome but predicable.

The trend is to have these, shall we say, "thin model types" in aircraft these days. Seems this cancer has hit FD personal now.

The ironic thing about this is, if you take up smoking, which has appetite suppression properties (apart from the obvious dangers), you would loose weight and pass your class one. I am sure any person with half a brain would realise the folly in this.

[talkpedlar]

Since you went to Gatwick, I take it that was for initial Class 1 medical.. Hopefully this disappointment has occurred before you've spent/wasted/invested a lot of money on training towards a professional licence.

Anyway, here are my thoughts ( please note that I spent many years on the aircrew selection and recruitment side and encountered many Class 1 issues similar to your own.)

1 Yes, there are grounds for appeal but you may well not be successful and it won't be resolved overnight.

2 Let's be brutal here... just take it on the chin..OK? Right, at 5'7" you're clearly built like the original brick s***house.. you're a very big guy and in a competitive interview/recruitment situation you are going to be remembered.. but for all the wrong reasons.

I'm sorry Josh, you'll be much better off by working to meet the CAA's BMI criteria than appealing their decision... and your career prospects will improve too.

Good luck and best wishes,

[Don_Apron]

H. Norman Schwarzkopf, Gulf war one. He was big, beefy and had a presence. He had the look of a leader. He was a leader, with a brilliant mind.

Now, in a company your new recruits are one day, hopefully going to be Captains. Captains who will become leaders, not some skinny weasels who have no backbone and be yes men.

I look up to a leader and maybe look down on a weasel. I look up to a leader who can stand up to bulling management.

Maybe I'm old fashioned and a dinosaur.

[talkpedlar]

H. Norman Schwarzkopf, Gulf war one. He was big, beefy and had a presence. He had the look of a leader. He was a leader, with a brilliant mind.

No-one ever offered Schwartzkopf a right-hand seat in an Aztec, Navajo or Citation etc... and for good reason.

Josh needs to look way beyond the issue of his Class 1 .. he needs to make himself suitable and attractive for every flying oportunity which may come his way... it's fiercely competitive out there.

On some aircraft, if you stick a 240 pound guy in the RHS you may have to leave a pax or some bags behind.. fact.

I still wish Josh the best of luck but at his age it's not going to be easy.

[763 jock]

Apparently, the quickest way to reduce your BMI is to chop a leg off! Only one though. If you do both, you are back to square one.

Not something the CAA would recommend though.

[JoshG]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I attended an exercise test today as requested by the cardiologist so he can prepare a report for the CAA. All went off without a hitch and should be enough to satisfy them that my class one should be issued with no further problems.(hopefully)

[Don_Apron]

That's good news and good luck.

As mentioned previously, any trouble, European court of human rights, on the discrimination ticket.

[Dave Gittins]

JoshG .... best of luck.

I got my Class 2 revoked becuase I was dim, daft and dopey enough to issue the CAA with a copy of my echocardiogram which revealed an LVEF of about 48% .... which despite considerable sympathy from Rob Hunter was just insurmountable because it has to be over 50%.

Never mind that the FAA would accept down to 45% but I don't have a directly issued FAA license and that I passed Gatwick's cardiac exercise stress test without problems, it was still a No NO.

Silly part is that it may have been at that level for years and as it isn't a required test could have remained undiscovered forever.

[mad_jock]

Dave you do know about the NPPL don't you?.

[talkpedlar]

Josh.. it's surprising and disappointing that you think that a cardiologist's report will ensure the issue of your Class 1. For my part I genuinely hope that you get your Class 1 and are able to follow your dream. Please do keep us posted.

Realistically however (IMHO) the CAA Aeromedical folks will still have to apply the EASA BMI criteria... regardless of such a report...BMI issues embrace wider issues than simple cardiology.

This ol boy has spent enough time in a scrum to feel for your predicament but securing a Class 1 via the route suggested does not address your other predicament ... making yourself a viable candidate for future employent... and it is a worry that you're only now addressing this issue at age 32.

Before I get flamed, please note that there is no criticism..implied or stated.. in this reply. Cheers, TP

[cavortingcheetah]

Now here's a chance, in the run up to the last weekend before the one where the British put their clocks back, for the relevant exercise of a little light sense of humour.
There is of course no criticism implied or intended and neither should anything be inferred other than the excuse for a hearty laugh.

Notorious BIG declared too fat to have street corner named after him - News - Music - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/notorious-big-declared-too-fat-to-have-street-corner-named-after-him-8889385.html)

[JoshG]

Talkpedlar, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about my age and my size, I'm sure if we met you would see I'm not as big as you think.

I have looked into this career choice in depth and have spoken to many people across the board in the helicopter industry about these two issues and my intentions with regard to employment.

All feedback so far (apart from yours) has been positive along with meeting successfully employed instructors that didn't start flying until quite a bit further along in years than myself! I have had the sense not to soley approach schools eager for my money from training that would ultimately lead to me being told what I want to hear.

The CAA have requested further tests to satisfy them that I am eligible for a Class1 medical certificate, and I have fulfilled the additional requirements they have set out. If you know of other cases where they keep coming back with the hope of bullying a "big guy" out of the industry I would be interested to hear about it.

I have flown with the chief instructor of a well known and respected company who is a big chap who didn't start his PPL(H) until he was 38, so your view doesn't really hold a lot of water (IMHO) and I would of thought an "old boy" like yourself would have been a little more encouraging, but you old boys do get a bit grumpy and negative in your old age don't you:).
I appreciate your opinion(s) and have taken it on board so you need not mention it in every other post;)

The appointment with the AME cardiologist went very well today and he is pretty certain his report will satisfy the CAA as the additional checklist requested has been completed. If they still come back with a no then I will pursue the other helpful suggestions posted on this thread, giving up isn't one of them.

[Don_Apron]

Josh

That's the spirit! Never ever give up. There is always a way out, somewhere.

Please keep us informed.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

The airlines also have their own limits set - less generous than the CAA! You may have to go through their own full day medical where they will re-measure weight/height... BMI limits of 30 not uncommon. Others you might be luckier "weight/height in proportion" not measured.

I'm afraid this issue will be with you well beyond licensing stage.

[JoshG]

Just to update.....
After having a cardiologist report and medical flight test report completed and sent back to the CAA I have had the Class 1 medical issued, now looking forward to jumping through the same hoops next year:{

[Ulster]

now looking forward to jumping through the same hoops next year

If it's any consolation at all, you probably WON'T have to do all that. Class 1 renewals can be done with local AME's rather than the CAA at Gatwick. They are much less likely to be difficult about an issue like this, especially if, as you have made clear, you are actually otherwise a very fit person !

Best of all, though, would be to make quite certain of sailing through next year's renewal by losing a worthwhile amount of weight in the interim ! What better New Year resolution could you make for yourself ?

Good luck ! :D

[Sop_Monkey]

joshg

Good to hear you got through the medical.

Previous posters are correct, the renewals are less strenuous. Choose am AME and stick with him/her.

As for loosing weight, take up smoking, then it wont be the problem it has been. That will satisfy the imbeciles at EASA.

[Ulster]

As for loosing weight, take up smoking

Words fail me ; they really do. Oh, I know - "I was only joking".
Yes, just like those who joke about bombs in their luggage while going through security ! :ugh: :ugh:

And, since I am one of those who implements the standards set by EASA, I'm none too happy with the word "imbeciles" either. :ugh: :ugh:

[Radgirl]

If you read this thread properly Joshg is not obese. BMI is a scneening tool not an assessment of obesity. some of the subsequent remarks are way out of line.

This may merely be the first case and more may follow. I agree the word imbecile is unacceptable. It is merely a new policy that needs thinking through and modifying.

Joshg I think you should politely write to the CAA on the basis that the screening is flawed. There are many experts in bariatrics, indeed a big centre exists at the private hospital at Gatwick :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

I am no expert but a five minute consultation with a nutritionist or bariatric consultant would have been cheaper, faster and more 'accurate' than what you appear to have been subjected to.

[Sop_Monkey]

Ulster

"As for losing weight, take up smoking."

There lies the irony. The aviation authorities allow smokers to pass a class one medical initial but fail a guy who is a bit bulky and who is highly likely to be a non smoker.

Are you trying to tell me that a smoker in the cockpit, is less of a danger, than a non smoker, considering the psychological and physiological problems a smoker who cant give up, will have?

That is the case and yes it is imbecilic, allowing an addict into the cockpit, who apparently has no regard for his or her well being. If they don't have their own well being at heart, what guarantee is there they have their passengers well being considered?

Words fail me too.

[First.officer]

If they don't have their own well being at heart, what guarantee is there they have their passengers well being considered?


Maybe because aside from the fact they smoke, they hold a Professional Licence, have a desire to do a good job, and also to reach each destination in one piece also? Just because you smoke (and yes, it is a terrible habit) it doesn't automatically preclude someone from wanting to live on a daily basis.

I agree that physiologically it would appear odd not to pass a candidate who doesn't smoke (all other factors being the same), but psychologically?! really? just because I smoke, doesn't automatically make me a danger in all other areas of my life.

F/o