To go to university or not to go to university...(Merged 2013)

[Theunderdog]

Hello,
Firstly I know that this is a very controversial topic regarding flight training and I know it has been posted numerous times on the forums, and I would like to clarify that I have used the search function but I wanted to ask a few extra questions anyways so I am going to go ahead and ask anyways.

So my current situation is I am in my final year for my GCSEs, and A levels options is coming up. My plan to becoming a commercial pilot at this moment is once I complete my A levels I would go to an Integrated ATPL school (Oxford Aviation Academy, CTC Wings, FTE Jerez etc) and completing that course then head towards the airlines as a cadet. However it has just come to my attention whether university degrees help in becoming an airline pilot. I have read from many other posts that it is a waste of time and money, or it is very useful for being hired by the airlines or simply as a backup if jobs do not arise.

Because I am an optimistic person, I would like to think that I can get away with only completing the flight training course without the university degree, but will it work out well for me? Obviously if other students had university degrees then they are more likely to be hired by the airlines than I would, so how many of these ab-inito students actually went for university degrees?
Same applies for my next question, can I enter these flight academies with only my GCSEs and A levels?
I also would like to know what the situation is going to be like within the next 10 years or so in the aviation business as it begins to boom once again. With all of these predicted shortages of pilots, is this "backup" university degree for other career options necessary? Id imagine it would be a lot easier than it is now currently to get hired by an airline fresh out of flight academies such as Oxford Aviation.

I do appologise in advanced if I have bored any of you for the repetitive amounts of times these questions have been posted, I do appreciate an answer which will lead me into the right decisions in my academical life for the next few years and being successful in getting a career as an airline pilot
Thanks!

[hopefulpilot94]

Hi,
Nobody can predict what the job market will be like in the next 10 years as aviation is notorious for it's unpredictability.
However, I would suggest if you know becoming a pilot is what you want you shouldn't waste time with a degree. I have just begun at University and I'm looking to drop out already as I want to be a pilot but thought it would be beneficial to have a back-up plan. However, currently all I do is sit in lectures wishing I wasn't there envying those out flying. This clearly isn't the case for everyone and many go on to enjoy and value their degree highly, it's for this reason only you can decide what you are going to do.
I would however recommend getting a job to earn some money and life experience before going on to your integrated flight school.
I hope you find this this somewhat helpful.

[smartguy]

Hi there, I am in a similar situation as you and I am near to finishing my a-levels. I think having a degree is defiantly a useful thing to have on your CV, however what I do not want to do is end up doing a three year course at uni with no relevance to aviation.

If you are going modular, a university degree is very useful but if you want to go integrated like CTC, for example, you will be put in a holding pool after you complete training and it's not like a degree is going to help you skip the queue in the hold pool!

As I have mentioned on this forum recently, there is a possibility of you going to CTC or OAA and obtaining a degree as well doing flight training without actually attending a university campus, so this is defiantly an option for me and I recommend you look into this aswell.

If you are going to university to help you become a pilot, I don't think it helps a great deal! I have heard from many pilots that their degrees haven't given them the advantage they first hoped they would.

I also wouldnt waste 3 years getting a degree just as a 'back-up plan' because if you can't find work within airline, worst case scenario, there will always be work as a flight instructor etc...

[RichardH]

As you have said yourself this topic has been flogged to death, everybody has different reasons, motivations, background and financial backing when starting out.

However a couple of points:-
1. You do not require a degree to be accepted on these integrated courses, more likely a large bank balance, though for "sponsored' courses it might help your case particularly if it is an aviation related degree e.g. aero engineering etc.

2. Aviation is not exactly known for job security. Nobody really knows what is going to happen in 3 years let alone 10. Highly sensitive to global threats, 9/11 saw several courses cancelled mid-stream then there's oil supply. I constantly keep reminding people on this forum the last 'pilot shortage' was in 1940. Do not fall all the sales crap and glossy brochures you must be aware of the potential risks.

I have always advised anybody to have a back up plan of some description. The right degree from a proper university will open doors in almost any walk of life. You can be right idiot with a PPE degree and become PM!

3. As a commercial instructor I have seen several times where 18 year olds just don't have the life skills required to hack what goes with the training or job. The extra 3 years at university and/or some life experience can make a big difference.

[ShyTorque]

Because I am an optimistic person, I would like to think that I can get away with only completing the flight training course without the university degree, but will it work out well for me?

Having put two sons through uni (neither are flyers), I'd urge you to consider what you would do if Plan A, i.e. the flying training didn't work out? What would you do if you lost your medical? It happens.

As in all things aviation, think of plan B.

My second son definitely did not want to go to uni because he saw his pals earning money while he wasn't. We talked him into completing a degree (it was a long hard road for him and us.....

Now the market has changed, his pals are wishing they had gone his route and he told me how totally glad he is that he has his qualification.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I lose track of how many threads I've read and commented upon on this subject. I really would advise you to use the search function and read as many of them as you can.

However, a personal perspective...

I have two degrees in aeronautical engineering. I've worked in flight testing, airworthiness and most recently research flying.

I have a CPL and do bits of freelance professional flying. In my case instructing, ferrying or test flying. I was briefly a very very junior offcer in the RAF.

Most of my professional engineer jobs I could not have done without my first degree and the more recent stuff has needed my PhD. Some of them I'd also have struggled to do without significant flying experience - but that is mostly because I've tried, and succeeded, to work in flight related areas of engineering.

My instructing and ferry flying are totally irrelevant to my degrees. They really make virtually no difference. On the other hand I know virtually no test pilots without Engineering or Science degrees. That said, the exception is that the current CAA Chief Test Pilot has no degree and the RAF CTP has a degree in geography. On the other hand both also have very impressive military flying careers behind them, and they are the exception.

I'd guess that about 75% of RAF officers have degrees - that includes most RAF (or RN) pilots.Most army pilots don't have degrees.

I know, or have known, a lot of airline captains. I'd say that a small majority have no degrees in Europe, the majority have degrees in North America - but usually only "associate degrees"- which in the UK would be either an HNC or a foundation degree. That's two rungs down the ladder from an honours degree. I've never seen any correlation between their academic qualifications and their skill or employability.

I also employ a lot of graduates - usually science or engineering subjects. Like most employers I'm usually not interested in fresh graduates, and less interested in people who graduated and then went off to do something unrelated to their degree. That said the one exception is that I might be interested in an aero-eng graduate who went off to fly for a bit because I'd probably regard that as relevant professional experience. But, I'd still expect them to have kept sharp their degree skills and developed them.

Finally I'd comment that most newish graduate salaries are quite poor and the recruitment time scales quite slow. A plumber, gas fitter or short-order chef, for example, can probably get a job faster and for the first couple of years it'll pay much better. On the other hand a coiple of decades into my career as an aeronautical engineer I make much more money - and in opinion have a lot more fun - than skilled craftsmen around the same age.

[average-punter]

For a 16 (or possibly 15) year old you seem to have your head screwed on and should be applauded for thinking ahead. As has been said aviation is not stable and can suddenly change over night!

I have no desire whatsoever to be involved in some big debate here but I will paint a picture of how I see things. A degree is expensive as much as Martin Lewis tries to sugar coat it, it's going to cost you. That said, if you can obtain a place at a decent uni and intend to study a decent subject (not colouring in studies or the like) then I think you would gain a lot out of it, certainly there would be plenty to talk about at flying interviews. It shows a good level of commitment which from previous experience employers like to see. At your age I also feel it will be beneficial to find some part time work. I've found professional examples in interviews are better received than personal/educational. Most interviews these days are competency based which will ask you to talk about a specific time that you have shown a particular competency that the employer is looking for.

I think what Mad Jock is getting at is that the integrated route isn't the only route into the airlines and I believe he is correct in saying this. Get up to your local airfield cafe, you'll be amazed who you may meet. (At the same time you could enquire about part time jobs at the airfield)

I believe it's then about processing all the information possible, trying to talk to guys that have gone through a range of routes then make a decision based on what you have learnt and what you think will suit your needs best.

[Halfwayback]

OK MJ, Bealzebub, smartguy et al

Forum rules are quite clear! Stick to the thread!

This is the inevitable 'Uni or not' hamsterwheel - NOT the Mod V Integrated debate.

HWB

[Theunderdog]

Hey guys!
Thanks for all your comments and thoughts, once again I do appologise for not making thorough use of the search box. What I find interesting is the amount of people who say degrees are important in the piloting side of aviation. I certainly questioned myself when people told me that, cause when I decided to look for appropriate degree courses I found it hard to choose one along the lines of aviation that would actually be of use in my piloting career.
Just out of interest, is the Oxford Aviation Academy (closest to home for me) a place I can apply to and enroll on straight after my A Levels or is there a certain time I have to wait until for the course to start? Also how many candidates are accepted into the school?

[PURPLE PITOT]

So long as you have the required funds, they will take anybody.

[ShyTorque]

Speaking as an ex-RAF University Air Squadron QFI and recruiter, bear in mind that your degree doesn't necessarily need to be directly related to aviation in order to achieve the purpose. If you were to ask uni graduated professional pilots what their degree subject was, you might be quite surprised.

A degree shows that you are capable of completing tertiary education. Gain one, use it as a second string to your bow if the need arises. Unless you would be age barred from aviation after uni, I'd still say do the degree first.

[G-F0RC3]

My opinion is that it depends on how much money you've got. If you can afford to do an integrated course and not have to then concern yourself with paying it back (for one reason or other), then I'd just go ahead and do that. After you've finished the integrated course you can apply to airlines while doing something else with your time (such as studying on a degree or simply working to build experience). Because this way you're not under significant pressure to start making tonnes of money quickly.

However, if getting the funds was via a loan that you had to pay back (without external help from parents etc) then I'd say it's an insane decision. By far the most sensible route would be to do a degree first and get a qualification that'll allow you to get a job that pays a decent salary. Then if you went to do an integrated course and struggled to find a job after it, you'd have a career to fall back on that would allow you to pay off the loan.

But I would urge you to be cautious. Being optimistic is all well and good, but don't let it make your decisions for you. It'll only end in tears.