Senior Aviation/Austin Aviation [Archive]

Old and Horrified

17th May 2013, 07:40

Be very careful!

You can only reclaim VAT if you are a VAT registered business (or self employed) and can convince HMRC that you need the qualification in legitimate pursuit of your business. In other words, a PPL by itself would not qualify. If you are doing a CPL, HMRC would probably need a letter from a prospective employer saying he would employ you when qualified. Be sure that HMRC will scrutinise that very carefully!

You can only claim back income tax by off setting it against future earnings. In other words, you would have to declare a loss in your business for the first year or two while you are doing the training, and then use that to offset against earnings in the future (but only from earnings that result from flying), and you can only do this for (I think) 5 years. See HMRC Help sheet 227.

Not a tax expert, but an educated opinion from running my own business for many years. Take professional advice!

jerrysenior

17th May 2013, 08:15

just to clear a few pointers from the above, I own senior av, the address at 5 lower beobridge was my address when i registered the domain, if you google it you will see its 5 minutes down the road from wolverhampton airport where I also set up a flight school called austin aviation which is were g-chap comes into it, which is managed by us for the owner carl,feel free to go to austin aviation website and you will see me on the meet the team page, as for g-fox it was based at wolverhampton.we started senior av because we had students coming in asking about the vat, and because i'd claimed my tax and vat when i did my training we stared to help our students at the school,Im a bit long in the tooth but im doing my cplh ground school with phill croucher at captonline, we also purchase his superb study books and phil is also aware I set the school up with alan austin.

P.s no mystery guys, its just something new and we are here to help pilots and students from "any school in the uk" also we don't need a business address but if any guys want to meet me at our wolverhampton airfield austin aviation offices i'd be more than happy to do so.

did my training with robert power heliflght.

Jason Senior. "jerrysenior" nick name at school no mystery there either:)

Anthony Supplebottom

17th May 2013, 09:14

Jerry - well done for speaking up. :D Most don't.

John R81

17th May 2013, 20:15

Agreed - thanks for clearing this up.

If I might make a suggestion, it would be that you don't give people the impression that they can expect to recover tax and VAT for either PPL(H) or CPL(H) training / examinations. The circumstances in which that would be accepted by HMRC are i. for PPL(H) virtually non-existent; and ii for CPL(H) extraordinarily narrow and rare (perhaps you have a CPL and a fixed-wing business and want to expand into rotor-work - then you would have grounds to make a claim). I think that it would be better to assume that there would be no recovery of tax and then if that proved to be incorrect it would be 'good news' and not the other way around.

Please also see PM

jerrysenior

17th May 2013, 21:39

But thats the point, we are saving students vat and income tax on there pplh/cplh/ir......... and all the rest,with our business model, I did it myself in 2003 the fact that we have put it together as a package, which makes it easier for our guy's to do, all of a sudden it changes things,I agree if you went to an account tomorrow and say I want to claim back vat and tax on my pplh and if you went to the vat office and said i want to do this, they would all say no every time agreed,and if they said yes we wouldn't have developed the package, it's the accounts that we work with that apply for the vat and get it because of the business model.

as you can see I've been a member of pprune since 2010 and only posted 5 times,but the comments above can be very "damaging" I think one guy said we had only put a phone number up there and an email address ha ha, I don't know how much more information you need to contact a company,and worse I think someone mentioned "fraud" which is amazing how you can come to that without speaking to someone or any grounds for this, but as a flight school and senior aviation in such a small industry everybody knows everyone, so to jeopardise both companies and our reputation for a couple of hundred pounds profit every few months, to help fellow pilots and students after I've spent tens of thousands of pounds on training "I don't think so"

I understand that there will be lots of people saying you can't do it, I've had people telling me this my whole life,and believe me its much more fun to go out and do it.

Guys I've already broke my record for replying to posts, take the course don't take the course, and the guys that say you can't will always be the one's saying you can't.

if you have a dream follow your heart,keep your head down,work hard,treat people how you would want to be treated and I'll see you smiling on the other side.

Oh almost forgot, I think one guy said that we would be taking money off people and running in these bad times, which did make me smile,wouldn't it be nice to get some of the money back from the government for all the tax we pay on food,fuel,council tax,income tax,vat,cars,bikes,flight traininggggggg, thousands and thousands.

I'm with you guy's we are trying to help,and the fact that we give a 100% money back guarantee if we can't save you money, I can't see what more you can offer :ugh:

wish all you guys the best and you know where we are if you need us.

do something different tomorrow.

Jason.

InDaBack

17th May 2013, 22:14

JerrySenior

On your main page there is an error,

"even if your in the middle of your PPL course or just starting your commercial we can save you money."

should read

"even if you are in the middle of your PPL course or just starting your commercial ?licence/course/qualification we can save you money."

If your website is aimed at non-aviation potential customers, referring to commercial without a specific reference may be confusing, commercial as in a TV ad?

Its only a little thing but typos on your main page stand out and detract from your message.

jerrysenior

17th May 2013, 22:37

finally positive feed back thanks for that, english was never my thang ;)

many thanks.

Jason.

Peter-RB

18th May 2013, 09:30

This Vat thing has been done by me, however the Vat man was dubious until I showed him the reason why I was wanting to claim back the vat on all training and such things, when I showed him the details and thus the reason he agreed, turned out he was ex Raf and also an Anorak who went to all the local airshows......I think that helped, but I didnt know that until after he made a noise like the man from "Del-Monte":D

Peter R-B
Lancashire

helicopterflyer

19th May 2013, 18:13

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/515002-can-you-guys-have-look-website.html

The other thread is VERY interesting indeed. Moderators have moved my post from the other thread to this one, but I thought it was important to edit this post with a link back to the original thread I was posting against, so you know what prompted this...

I'm training for my PPL(H) now and upto 52 hours so far.

I looked into this last year when I started my training. I asked about the VAT thing (as 20% on top of £250 lesson is hard to swallow). So far, I have paid over £2600 of VAT on the lessons. Plus, there is VAT on the 52 landing fees I've had to pay, and VAT on the ground school courses I have taken and exams. I bet I am easily up to £3000 of VAT since starting this.

When I looked into this last year, the flying school said 'no' to me claiming the VAT back. I also checked with my accountant (who is senior partner of his firm and an ex-tax man) and he also said 'no'.

I have also 'moaned' about this to fellow student pilots and the qualified pilots at the airfield and they've all had to pay VAT, because their accountants and instructors have all said 'you can't claim back the VAT'.

I'd really like to know more about this.

helicopterflyer

19th May 2013, 18:21

On your website, you have some testimonials, namely :

Reviewer: Joe manchester http://www.senioraviation.co.uk/ekmps/images/system/stars_5.png
saved £4,300 so far and I'm still saving awesome product and service

Reviewer: Jeff Staffordshire http://www.senioraviation.co.uk/ekmps/images/system/stars_5.png
Can't thank these guys enough saved me thousands A+

Reviewer: Owen Chester http://www.senioraviation.co.uk/ekmps/images/system/stars_5.png
wish i had found this company when I started my ppl training but they have just saved me 7k on my commercial first class

Reviewer: Carl Essex http://www.senioraviation.co.uk/ekmps/images/system/stars_5.png
Just finished my PPL(H), last qtr to date I've saved £6,349 I had tried accountants at the start but because of the type of business they couldn''t give a real answer yes,no,maybe I was uurrrrrr !!!!!!! lol go for it.

Please could I contact these people for a chat?

This is all VERY interesting indeed.

I'm training for my PPL(H) now and upto 52 hours so far.

I looked into this last year when I started my training. I asked about the VAT thing (as 20% on top of £250 lesson is hard to swallow). So far, I have paid over £2600 of VAT on the lessons. Plus, there is VAT on the 52 landing fees I've had to pay, and VAT on the ground school courses I have taken and exams. I bet I am easily up to £3000 of VAT since starting this.

When I looked into this last year, the flying school said 'no' to me claiming the VAT back. I also checked with my accountant (who is senior partner of his firm and an ex-tax man) and he also said 'no'.

I have also 'moaned' about this to fellow student pilots and the qualified pilots at the airfield and they've all had to pay VAT, because their accountants and instructors have all said 'you can't claim back the VAT'.

I'd really like to know more about this.

Thanks

Whirlygig

19th May 2013, 23:52

If something seems to good to be true, it usually is.

Firstly, Senior Aviation is selling a business franchise and states that it doesn't matter with which school you are training

Your own Business website franchise, which you will sell flights online for the school you are training with, fully designed and live.How would A. N. Other flight school feel about this?

I would be sceptical about any organisation that claims it can set up a business bank account and business credit card without credit checks? What happened to Money Laundering Regulations? Proof of ID?

Secondly, you cannot reclaim VAT and/or income tax for a PPL. I know some ppruners have done so in the past where they have demonstrated a business plan which encompassed CPL/FI or IR training immediately afterwards as part of a modular training programme but times have changed. When the company owner of this website has stated that he successfully managed to do so, it was ten years ago when the Inland Revenue and Customs & Excise were two separate organisations; they are now one - HM Revenue and Customs.

I've said it before, and I guess I'll say it again ... you can only reclaim VAT on your training if you become self-employed afterwards (either as a sole trader or via your own limited company through which you would pay yourself via PAYE and maybe dividends). If you become employed (i.e. North Sea), then the VAT reclaimed would have to be paid back as you are NOT in business in your own right. The mechanisms for reclaiming income tax (which is different to VAT) on pre-business training are, to the best of my knowledge, non-existent. Hell, I couldn't even reclaim income tax on my ACA training which I partly self-funded and that was back in 1990.

I reckon that the owners of this franchise model have found a local accountant who reckons they can get this past HMR&C; I, along with a few other ppruners here who are businessmen or who have sought professional advice, am dubious. Very dubious.

I would urge anyone here not to part with any money for this franchise model without checking it first with qualified professionals i.e. Chartered or Certified accountants or a member of the Institute of Tax. I would trust that this Senior Aviation would send the "fine print" and T&Cs for inspection before money has changed hands. Personally, I'd like to know the name of the accountant who does all this on ones behalf; presumably a 64-8 has to be signed in order for them to act as your agent?

Now may be a good time to point out that anyone can set up as an accountant; there are no restrictions so it's a good idea to check the actual qualification.

Cheers

Whirls

Gordy

20th May 2013, 00:12

Whirls----Love your style.......

Last edited by Whirlygig; 19th May 2013 at 16:54. Reason: Rioja-induced spolling ...

Be rude not too as they say.......:D:D

Whirlygig

20th May 2013, 00:18

I would dearly love to know why, whilst typing any reply to a thread, I cannot see my typos. As soon as I press the submit button, those typos fly out of the screen and slap me 'round the face. :ouch:

Cheers

Whirls

jerrysenior

20th May 2013, 10:04

I'm trying not to get dragged into this, but as the owner some comments can be very damaging. My home address was posted on here and I've given out our flight school address, I don't think there's anything to hide, and have no need too.
As a lot of pilots have claimed vat and claimed tax, I think we are on the agreement that it does and can happen, its just that we have put it together as a package and a business, to take all the stress and time away from it, we are setting you up with a business and its totally legal, also if its done wrong and you don't get your vat number, its near impossible to convince the vat office any different so be careful.

As for getting a business bank account we can and we do supply one, it's got to be cleared for fraud checks with i.d no mystery there, all part of the service, no godfather involved :)

"Selling lesson's for their flight school", we don't see a problem with promoting the school their training with and bringing in more business, but if your school doesn't want you to after all the money you are spending with them, then I think it's a bit poor, but if the school doesn't for what ever reason, your business will sell training for our flight school and you can carry on training at yours, we look at it as another company selling for us.

people keep saying "contact accountant" "accountant" people do go to see the accountant, then they come to us, so after you've been to an accountant and you say "I want to claim my vat back and tax back on flying", they are going to say no otherwise we wouldn't be doing what we do.

hope thats cleared that bit up.

we offer a 100% money back guarantee if we can't save you money,and you know where we are if you don't !!!!!

and if you think we are going to plaster our business model all over the site "not going to happen"

also they are certified chartered accountants.

if you have any more problems, questions and would like to meet us at our wolverhampton airport office, for people that are really interested in joining us and meeting face to face, I'd be more than happy to discuss any questions you may have.

Have a good day and happy flying.

Jason

500e

20th May 2013, 10:18

Being a bit slow ( Learning to fly) I had long discussions with both HMRC & my accountant regarding both tax & VAT the accountants reply was "we will try it BUT it could \will come back to bight you".
HMRC, I never new they had a sense of humour one actually laughed

Whirlygig

20th May 2013, 10:25

and you say I want to claim my vat back and tax back on flying, they are going to say no otherwise we wouldn't be doing what we do. I can promise you that any accountant who believes that it is genuinely possible to claim back VAT and Income Tax for flight training would say YES, as that way they would earn some fees. Even accountants need to eat.

Cheers

Whirls

Old Age Pilot

20th May 2013, 11:37

It may just be that I'm an old git and a bit out of touch with all you youngies but bad spelling and grammar is a huge put-off for me when spending money. Especially when related to obtaining a professional license. And does not put one's mind at ease when looking to someone for advice on such scary entities as HMRC, Tax and VAT.

Not meaning to be facetious, but there's no excuse for the above unless your eyes can't process red squiggly lines! :)

jerrysenior

20th May 2013, 13:29

Come on guys really?:)

Whirlygig

20th May 2013, 15:34

Sorry jerrysenior but actually yes, really. I've felt as though I've had to interpret what you're saying rather than truly understand it. You may well have some valid points but if they are not coherently made, other readers will likely misinterpret those points. You've complained of some potentially defamatory remarks but maybe those remarkss were made because you did not express yourself clearly.

Let's eat Grandma ... good grammar saves lives! :8

Cheers

Whirls

jerrysenior

20th May 2013, 15:41

point taken whirly:)

Heathrow Harry

20th May 2013, 16:11

If you are self-employed and you then claim back more VAT than you charged on you will get what you shelled out back - but do it too often and you can guarantee an inspection.....................

Pittsextra

20th May 2013, 16:45

This VAT reclaim isn't that complex and it is possible.

The first thing you must do is establish a trading position and company, register for VAT and then it is a simple input v output VAT (i.e how much you are paying in VAT for invoices you sent verses how much you paid in VAT for invoices you paid).

Obviously its the "trading position" element that is tricky since you can't charge for being a pilot without a commercial licence. However that doesn't mean you can't have an aviation business, who then trains its staff to become a pilot..

And of course a trading position doesn't need to be profitable as it can be supported via a directors loan account until the business is profitable.

homonculus

20th May 2013, 20:30

But it has to be trading. You have to be raising invoices. And in my case HMRC wanted a detailed business plan showing how the company could become profitable and when.

If you end up in dispute your accounting fees plus penalties and time will be far far greater than a proportion of 20% of your costs

Pittsextra

20th May 2013, 20:59

...in my case HMRC wanted a detailed business plan showing how the company could become profitable and when.

To which you might have answered that all this flight training, with the aim of becoming a commercial pilot, was part of boosting the companies revenue stream in the medium term and forms part of a change in the strategy of the business since inception etc, etc blah..??

There is a lot made of accounting fees, answering to HMRC and the fear of penalty. Frankly if you have a real business with a plan that is aviation centred then there is nothing to worry about because there are a great many real reasons why one might embark on pilot training to enhance/support or even evolve a current business.

For instance one great and long running aviation business in the UK would be Martin Baker. No doubt at some point, having done all the boffin bits, it might have been useful for someone to actually fly a plane and test it. Sure you could hire a pilot/plane short term but it would be perfectly reasonable for them to have trained someone to fly to support the needs of the business in the long term, and no doubt expensed via the business which included reclaiming the VAT.

On a smaller scale what about someone that might do aircraft re-sprays? Perhaps learning to fly might enable the business to give better service, etc, etc.

Business can change direction and evolve there is nothing dodge in that.

John R81

21st May 2013, 07:06

The crux of the matter is whether there is a real business. If there is, it might be painful to go through the audit by HMRC and you might have to prove your position before the First Tier Tribunal to win but with the right evidence and enough hard work you stand a chance.

UK tax planning

Not referrring to any particular business opportunity whether discussed on this thread so far or not.

Remember that if the main benefit (or one of the main benefits) of an intended course of action (known as 'an arrangement') is the obtaining of a tax advantage then the scheme promotor, or the person undertaking the scheme, must notify HMRC within 5 days of the scheme being available or within 30 days of implementation if you design the arrangement yourself. Failure to do so is an offence, even if the arrangement is correct, in a legal sense, and therefore it actually works. This remains the case even if there is a real business behind the arrangement.

If you think that these rules might apply, and you are a promoter, it is important to seek professional advice to confirm that the rules do not apply to your idea; or make a disclosure anyway to cover yourself. If you are using an arrangement that provides you with a tax benefit which is significant then make sure that you have been given a scheme number by the promoter or seek assurance from the promoter / seek your own professional advice to confirm that the disclosure rules do not apply OR talk to HMRC to confirm the position.

HMRC notes on these rules are reproduced below and the detailed version can be found at http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ria/disclosure-guidance.pdf. The rules are drawn to be as wide as possible, and Hallmarks 2-5 are most typically found:

Summary of the disclosure rules
Income Tax, Corporation Tax and Capital Gains Tax
The disclosure regime was introduced with effect from 1st August 2004 and was limited in scope to tax arrangements concerning employment or certain financial products. This was widened with effect from 1st August 2006 to the whole of income tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax.

A tax arrangement must be disclosed when:

it will, or might be expected to, enable any person to obtain a tax advantage;
that tax advantage is, or might be expected to be, the main benefit or one of the main benefits of the arrangement; and
it is a tax arrangement that falls within any description (“hallmarks”) prescribed in the relevant regulations.
In most situations where a disclosure is required it must be made by the scheme “promoter” within 5 days of it being made available. However, the scheme user may need to make the disclosure where:

the promoter is based outside the uk;
the promoter is a lawyer and legal privilege applies; or
there is no promoter.
The hallmarks are:

wishing to keep the arrangements confidential from a competitor;
wishing to keep the arrangements confidential from HMRC;
arrangements for which a premium fee could reasonably be obtained;
arrangements that include off market terms;
arrangements that are standardised tax products;
arrangements that are loss schemes; and
arrangements that are certain leasing arrangements.
Upon disclosure, HMRC issue the promoter with an 8-digit scheme reference number for the disclosed scheme. By law the promoter must provide this number to each client that uses the scheme, who in turn must include the number on his or her return or form AAG4.

A person who designs and implements their own scheme must disclose it within 30 days of it being implemented.

Separately, there is also a disclosure requirement for arrangements intended to provide a VAT advantage. These rules are unlikely to apply; the business needs a turnover of at least £600,000 per annum.

This is information only: take advice from a suitably qualified person not an internet chat forum

jerrysenior

21st May 2013, 09:51

Doesn't apply to us as we are setting up a business to sell training online with an e-shop the fact that you can claim "if you wish" is irrelevant .

but a very good point nice to see facts posted.

thanks John r81

Jerry Senior

firebird_uk

21st May 2013, 14:41

Ignoring the VAT / Taxation element of this scheme, let's think about the flight school the student is learning through.

Do they really want their students competing online against them for customers? Given that the potential customer is searching the internet and has found a number of organisations able to offer let's say, a trial lesson, at a certain price at a certain airfield - do the school and their students want to compete for that business?

I know that if I had quoted a customer and then found someone else trying to sell me that same customer with "something in it for them" I'd tell them where to stick it. The student is unable to do the job and if he started passing business to competitors on the airfield I'm sure the relationship with the school would soon evaporate.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for making training more cost effective for students, but getting them to buy a rod so they can fish in your pond seems a pretty stupid idea.

Pittsextra

21st May 2013, 15:01

Firebird - I'm not sure reading the website that you are actually competing with anyone... more just a booking agent?

I'm just not sure how that relationship is formalised - i.e. if you refer someone how you get paid your £10.

If that can be established its pretty nice as it does give you that trading position - just not sure why you need to spend £1600 to do something you could do for yourself....

firebird_uk

21st May 2013, 15:14

jerrysenior

21st May 2013, 15:17

its no different to red letters days,adventure 001,into the blue and all the rest.

The student charges £10.00 more per flight so the school gets the same amount they always charge wish I could say the same for red letter days and the rest which normally eat into your money for getting you the business but everyones ok with them.

Remember the student and school should work together with this to help both parties they are spending tens of thousands.

But if the schools not happy doing it for them the students can sell them for our school so either way we don't see a problem with that, the money goes to the schools anyway.

jerry senior.

jerrysenior

21st May 2013, 15:34

A lot more goes into this and takes the headache that is vat away and setting it all up for the student, banks, e website, vat and much more that's why we put it together as a package to help.

Jerry senior

firebird_uk

21st May 2013, 15:36

Sorry Jerry, you're wrong. It is totally different from the voucher pimps.

Your scheme members are very unlikely to be sending tens of thousands of emails a day with a wide variety of offers. They will not have a helpdesk full of staff and high quality presentation packs to send the customer.

They are going to be parasites feeding off of the product offerings the school has developed over time. Unless they increase the marketplace they are just competing for the same customers.

Also, I'd be careful when implying that most helicopter companies are "OK" with the voucher pimps. In an ideal world I expect most helicopter businesses owners would like to see them fail spectacularly! I know I would!

jerrysenior

21st May 2013, 15:51

The only way you will stop adventure, red and all the others is to all refuse to do the flights but I don't think thats going to happen anytime soon but I know how you feel about that.

Its not the students goal to make loads of money off online sales because it doesn't happen and the students know this.
the goal for them is to save the vat and tax get the qualifications and get a job.

Pittsextra

22nd May 2013, 20:17

Pitts - Surely paying someone to sell you business you would/could/should have won yourself is competition in anyone's books?

To make it worse, unlike "voucher pimps" such as Groupon et al, your student is unlikely to be engaged in outbound business generation - they're just going to be competing for those customers Googling "cheap helicopter flight".

Hi - to be quite honest in regards to this scheme (as has now been admitted since by someone connected? with it) it really isn't a big deal in the sense of competition. It would seem its merely a way to generate a trading position so that VAT can be reclaimed.

Its a nice idea tbh although I'm not sure why anyone needs to pay so much for it. An off the shelf company is a few hundred quid and registering for VAT is free, as is getting a bank account etc.

As for the commercials of people googling cheap helicopter flights, etc,etc really when you look at the sites that you refer to I'm not sure how operators loose out when hour helicopter flights in R44's set the punts back £350 each....

If I was an operator I'd gladly pay £10 for every one of those referrals...

jerrysenior

22nd May 2013, 21:19

like I said before a lot of work goes into this get it wrong and you can kiss your vat number and tax goodbye :)

also you claim back 20% vat and 20% tax on the franchise cost so its not much based on all the work we do.

firebird_uk

23rd May 2013, 14:43

Pitts - If I was an operator I'd gladly pay £10 for every one of those referrals...
And if it were that simple I might agree but I just can't see that it is.

From what I can see, the franchisee will bill the customer and have to pay whatever service charge for the on-line transaction. They then have a contract to deliver the flight.

If the franchisee then tells the customer that they're not delivering the flight, so please call school X, I would expect the customer to be a bit :mad:'d off. If they're smart, they'll cancel the sale under the distance selling regulations and book directly with the organ grinder.

Let's not even consider the undoubted complications of scheduling, Wx cancellations, changing customer requirements etc etc. Is the franchisee really going to be set up to cope with that? Telling the customer to contact school X after you've paid over your money is just not good enough.

You might say "well that's what the voucher pimps do", but that is not the case either. These organisations have excelled in their relationships with customers to a point where many organisations across many sectors are dependent on their "do it for cost" handouts in order to keep fresh faces coming through the door.

Jerry, perhaps you could elaborate on the sales cycle or point us to a franchisee website?

jerrysenior

23rd May 2013, 16:52

If you would like to visit me at our offices I'll be more than happy to answer any questions you may have or if you have a flight school I'd be happy to visit and go over any details.

Jerrysenior

jockmacstrap

11th Aug 2013, 18:48

I've just come through a horrific time after an audit from HMRC with my current business (non-aviation related). Don't mess with them! I made a bad choice of accountant and they made things messy.
HMRC can charge up to £5K every time they look at something they're not happy with. They kept asking why my profits were so low in January compared to the rest of the year. My industry shuts down in January but they wouldn't accept that as an answer and kept trying to dig deeper. I ended up with £15K of charges because of that. I hadn't actually done anything wrong other than was late with payments. It's not worth messing with them.

Give them their 20% and give it on time!!!

OTGLU

12th Aug 2013, 09:41

A few years go, I had issues with HMRC and useless accountants.

I came under audit, and the accountants I used had a few pilots on their books. So I made the (wrong) assumption that they were fully capable of providing the services I was to be paying them for.

Turns out my accountants were claiming things for me that were not supposed to be claimed for. HMRC had an argument that you can't claim for a new qualification, just an extension / addition of a licence / qualification that you already have. The accountants shrugged their shoulders and said I have to pay it back.
When I asked how'd that happen, I pay you as the experts, to assist and get the information correct. They said a new case law had passed and I sign to confirm, so therefore responsibility lies with. Ok, thanks, money well spent!

Little faith in accountants, less in HMRC.

It is a good way of saving some money, but anyone considering it, make sure you get a good accountant, or at least know what you are entitled to as it can come back on you, and they won't just stop at that years audit, they will go back.

MoAli

19th Sep 2013, 15:08

Hi there,

This is the first time I am posting a thread here. I am in need of some advice about what I need to know about helicopters for an Interview on Tuesday next week in Wolverhampton (West Midlands, UK) with "Senior Helicopters".

I have always wanted to be a professional airline pilot, however, I came across a job advertisement which I took an interest in and decided to apply for.

I don't know much about helicopters, but I would like to give myself the best chances of getting on to the training programme.

Does anyone here know what kind of questions they will ask?

Or, what I need to know beforehand.

Can I take printouts of information with me? To show I have done some research etc?

What do I need to talk about show an interest? etc?

I would appreciate every help/advice I can get from any of you.

thank you

Mohammed :)

Bobby92

26th Sep 2013, 20:23

Did they reply to you Mohammed?

MoAli

29th Sep 2013, 21:14

Hey Bobby,

Yes, I attended an interview, I was successful..

I am now supposedly one of 10 (out of 200 applicants) who will take a 2-3 hour flight test in the coming week or two.

However, I want to know whether this is a con or not.. it just seems too good to be true.

for them to pay 70,000 for the training, to give 250 pounds per week on top of that, to also pay for the medical at Gatwick airport, but to ask me to pay 290 pounds for the flight test. Which I have now paid for..

Which is worrying me, as people are telling me its too good to be true, and that it seems too undercover as they don't have their own training facility as I was told by the interviewer that if successful at the test flight, as they pick the best two from the 10 who will take the test flight, that I will be relocated to a closer airport to me (which would be Coventry).

As well as this, after completing the three year training, doing home study at home whilst training, they will employ the two pilots and still pay wages on top of the 250 pounds per week even once training has been completed.

Seems too good to be true..

Also, I have asked someone and he says that he has been asked about this outfit before and that it seems like a con to him and others think the same.

any advice?

Mohammed

Old and Horrified

29th Sep 2013, 21:34

Advice? You think it is too good to be true and you may be right. I don't know, but it certainly does sound strange when there are lots and lots of already qualified pilots currently looking for work.

My advice would be to not give them any more money until you understand it better and are confident that it is NOT too good to be true. Ask a lot of questions during/after the flight test. And do let us know how you get on!

MoAli

30th Sep 2013, 07:29

Well, my test flight is on Monday 7th October at 11.30am.. I will ask a friend or family member to come with me just incase..

Are there any questions in particular that you reckon I should ask?

At the interview I was given a copy of a newspaper article.. here's the link..

Lift-off for Dudley teenager with dream job as a helicopter pilot « Express & Star (http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2013/09/05/lift-off-for-dudley-teenager-with-dream-job-as-a-helicopter-pilot/)

I don't know whether I should take this with a pinch of salt or not.. it is a legitimate newspaper.. but the training that this young lad is supposedly undertaking is only 12months long and not three years long..

Mohammed

firebird_uk

30th Sep 2013, 18:25

Hi Mohammed,

If you get to spend 2-3 hours flying then your £290 will have been well spent as at £100/hr it may be some of the cheapest training you'll ever do (should you go on to pay for a licence from your own pocket).

If what you get is 2.5hrs of ground tuition and a half hour flight then you've probably been scammed and it would be interesting to see what made you one of the 1-in-20 (other than the fact that you paid up).

I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear how Monday goes!

FB

Bravo73

30th Sep 2013, 18:34

Are there any questions in particular that you reckon I should ask?

If you're feeling brave enough, I would ask them how they are going to fund the training. Are you going to be financially bonded for the cost of training in any way? And what sort of job security can they offer in the future?

I would also ask about the split between any potential flying duties and any ground duties, particularly if those ground 'duties' involve valeting aircraft.

(Also, Mohammed, please be aware that the owner of the company, Jerry Senior, reads this site and will undoubtedly be reading this thread).

Bravo73

1st Oct 2013, 12:35

...but to ask me to pay 290 pounds for the flight test. Which I have now paid for..

Mohammed,

It looks like you might well have been conned. Your £290 might only get you 10 minutes flying:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=712879418728932&id=131820176834862

:mad:

stingerdinger

1st Oct 2013, 12:51

Austin Aviation is genuine TRTO organisation and we have only done what we do, which is teach ppl to fly helicopters

Really? A TRTO? They're not listed as one. (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130920_sarg_lts_stds%20Doc%2031%20V113.pdf)

MoAli

1st Oct 2013, 19:21

Any advice as to what my next move should be?

Bravo73

1st Oct 2013, 19:36

Really? A TRTO? They're not listed as one. (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130920_sarg_lts_stds%20Doc%2031%20V113.pdf)

They appear to be piggybacking Heliflight's approvals. From Austin Aviation's website:

Together with our partners at Heliflight (UK) Ltd based at Gloucestershire Airport, we are able to offer a full range of Training to CAA/EASA Standard, including a Private Pilots Licence, a full Commercial Pilots Licence and a Flight Instructor Licence. About Us (http://www.austinaviation.co.uk/about-us-16-c.asp)

Bravo73

1st Oct 2013, 19:40

Any advice as to what my next move should be?

Cancel the 'assessment' and ask for your money back.

Or contact a local/national newspaper and conduct an 'undercover expose'. Or even get in touch with BBC's Watchdog: https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74/contact

MoAli

1st Oct 2013, 22:10

Thanks, will look into it..

Old and Horrified

2nd Oct 2013, 09:44

I agree with Bravo - unless they can commit to at least an hours actual flying, demand your money back.

MoAli

2nd Oct 2013, 21:23

Should I go for the assessment then? or cancel it as some as saying..?

Bobby92

4th Oct 2013, 16:31

Having been whittled down from 200 to 10 applicants(apparently) I had my flight training today whether to see if I had the natural ability to fly a helicopter. After being told that I would have to pay for it as they had to use a 3rd party as well( Austin aviation, I'm sure these 2 companys both **** from the same pot btw) £290. I had my concerns but as they told me it would be 2-3 hours training I thought at the least I'd have an hours flying experience. 1st of all when I logged myself in at there office 1st thing I was told to do was to sign a disclaimer that I wouldn't ask for a refund, after that I was shown to Austin aviation with 9 other people for a pre flight briefing( I can only imagine that the missing 1 out of the 10 clued on these were con merchants) which taught us how helicopters work. When we were finished there we were told to decide between ourselves who has which turn in the helicopter. To my dismay we had literally a 10 minute flight in the helicopter with mr Alan austin( if that's his real name.) when the flight was over each person coming out of the helicopter was given a test which didnt even relate to what we had been taught. We were given 20 multiple choice mind boggling questions and weren't told that you had to finish the 20 questions by the time the next candidate was finished flying the helicopter(10mins) I was told just to tick the questions off quickly as it didnt matter( probably didnt as they probably have no intention of giving anyone a trainee helicopter job). They said they'd be in touch within the next 2 weeks if I'm successful which I doubt anyone who hàs applied for it has been. Thing is Mohammed said his interview was Monday morning and mine being Friday lunchtime, my thinking is they've had a 10 candidate session each morning and same for the afternoons so for a week of people being duped they're making £29000 off vulnerable people such as myself wanting to better him/herself in this current financial climate, being sold a dream of a better life. I just want whoever reads this to spread the message loud and clear STAY AWAY FROM SENIOR HELICOPTERS & AUSTIN AVIATION!!!!!! I've read that it's not just midlands they're targeting, they've advertised the same position in Chester as well as probably many other places. I'm not expecting to get my money back but I do want people who are looking to better themselves not to be fooled like I was( and probably 100s of others) if it sounds to good to be true 99.999999999% of the time It probably is. As for jerrysenior how do you sleep at night?

robinsonFlyer

5th Oct 2013, 11:02

I am appalled by all this. False hopes of a job, fake interviews and £290 for a ten minute experience in the helicopter. Unbelievable.

When you read back a few pages of this thread, you'll see an admission by 'jerrysenior' that he set up Austin Aviation. To claim they are a 3rd party company can be seen as fraud.

I think this is preying on desperate people, like so-called modelling agencies that promise the earth to young aspiring women with false hope of a modelling contract, as long as they pay a few hundred quid for some photos, also by some '3rd party' studio (which is owned and run by the agency).

To make this legit, it appears a young guy has been employed and will be trained up, and the cost is being met by the hundreds of wannabees who fork out £290 for a ten minute flight and made to go through a series of interviews and assessments to keep up the pretense of it being a 'job interview'

Great business model.

Immoral?? Unethical?? Illegal?? You decide.

I have a question - when you did your flight, which seat were you in? Were you in the right seat during this flight? Being in the 'correct' seat is important.

If you feel aggrieved by all this, then I suggest you contact the newspaper to make them aware of the false job advert and your local councils trading standard department. Perhaps the airfield management office would also like to know what's been going on under their noses.

There are lots of rules and regulations in flight training, both on the flight school and the airfield. Maybe some of these rules and regs are being broken? Austin Aviation piggybacks on another flight schools TRTO - maybe they should be informed about all this too?

Who do you know who can help you??

As for signing a disclaimer before you went for the briefing and test flight is a clear indication that they are covering their arses. If this was legitimate, no such paperwork would need to be signed!

In any walk of life, there will be those minority who set up schemes and scams and make a lot of money from naive and gullible people, classic schemes such as false modelling agencies charging young women for photos on false promises of getting modelling work will always be around.... doing this to wannabe helicopter pilots and charging almost £300 for a totally made-up "flight assessment test" is a new one on me.

I am shaking my head in disbelief.

This can't be good for our industry. We don't want helicopter pilot training to be viewed with the same kind of suspicion as we get when we receive emails from Nigerian businessmen who want to deposit £10,000,000 in our bank accounts. The longer this scheme is allowed to operate, the more it will tarnish the entire helicopter training industry.

Old and Horrified

5th Oct 2013, 11:20

I am similarly appalled, but not surprised. Regrettably, this outcome was hugely predictable. It surely has to be criminal fraud?

Assuming the story is true (as I am sure it is) maybe Pprune could do a huge favour to other wannabees and post a sticky warning at the top of the Rotorheads page?

Bravo73

5th Oct 2013, 11:50

When you read back a few pages of this thread, you'll see an admission by 'jerrysenior' that he set up Austin Aviation. To claim they are a 3rd party company can be seen as fraud.

An interesting point, that only serves to muddy the waters even further.

Just in case Mr Senior decides to come back and edit his original post, here it is:

just to clear a few pointers from the above, I own senior av, the address at 5 lower beobridge was my address when i registered the domain, if you google it you will see its 5 minutes down the road from wolverhampton airport where I also set up a flight school called austin aviation which is were g-chap comes into it, which is managed by us for the owner carl,feel free to go to austin aviation website and you will see me on the meet the team page, as for g-fox it was based at wolverhampton.we started senior av because we had students coming in asking about the vat, and because i'd claimed my tax and vat when i did my training we stared to help our students at the school,Im a bit long in the tooth but im doing my cplh ground school with phill croucher at captonline, we also purchase his superb study books and phil is also aware I set the school up with alan austin.

P.s no mystery guys, its just something new and we are here to help pilots and students from "any school in the uk" also we don't need a business address but if any guys want to meet me at our wolverhampton airfield austin aviation offices i'd be more than happy to do so.

did my training with robert power heliflght.

Jason Senior. "jerrysenior" nick name at school no mystery there either:)

However, I suspect that we won't be seeing Mr Senior posting on this thread again.

misterbonkers

5th Oct 2013, 14:36

First of all I don't agree with what is going on and I believe that this is a practise praying on the young, naive, greedy (people want that £70k CPL(H) prize!) and vulnerable.

I guess it's a bit like music companies making CDs for pennies and selling for pounds.

How much do items of highstreet fashion cost to make? How much are they sold for?

What about the national lottery?!?

Years ago I used to fly around the boss of GHD Hair Straighteners - he made millions - why? Because he imported the product, boxed, ready to go on the shelf from China for £12 (inc tax & duty) and they sold to women who happily pay £100+ for a set!

If you want to make a lot of money you have to sell to a lot of people.

£290 for a 10minute flight that forms part of a 3 hour experience? Yes it seems a tad steep but you're never going to get an hour in an R44 from somebody who is looking to make a profit as well - It's circa £120 an hour just for fuel (and Wolverhampton's fuel ain't the cheapest in the UK).

My mate just sold his R44 Raven II and did some sums recently. Because Frank has insisted on so many mandatory things above and beyond the original maintenance schedule in years gone by it has cost more to run than expected. In fact it's cost him over £600 an hour (wet).

So in his aircraft a 10minute flight would be £100 for the aircraft alone.

Lets add an Instructor, premises, website, admin staff, landing fees, hangarage, advertising, telephone, stationary, annual business costs...

Then there is the all important profit!

(from Small Business - Chron.com (http://smallbusiness.chron.com/))

Retail Clothing Industry Profit Margins
The retail clothing industry had an average gross profit margin of 48.46 percent in 2009 according to Butler Consultants. However, by the time you add up all the expenses involved in operating retail clothing stores, the average net profit margin is only 7.98 percent. If your expenses are typical, then around 7 to 12 percent net profit would be a reasonable goal.

Equipment Manufacturing Industry Profit Margins
Butler Consultants lists the gross profit margin of the equipment manufacturing industry as 31.98 percent in 2009. The net profit margin only works out to 6.81 percent, largely due to the significant capital expenses in this industry. Unless your expenses are much less than your competitors, you want to aim for at least 6 percent and perhaps up to 9 or 10 percent net profit for your equipment manufacturing business.

Telecommunications Industry Profit Margins
Gross profit margins averaged 86.51 percent for the telecommunications industry in 2010. While that seems like a healthy profit margin, overhead is very high in the telecommunications industry and the average net profit margin is only 10.99 percent. Assuming industry-average expenses, a reasonable profit margin would be anything between 10 and 15 percent.

Retail Electronics Industry Profit Margins
The average gross profit margin in the retail electronics industry come in on the mid to low side at 30.76 percent, but like all retail businesses, labor expenses are relatively high and the average net profit in the industry is only 4.68 percent. A net profit in the range of 5 to 8 percent would be reasonable for a retail electronics store.

Economy of Scale
Another important factor in determining a reasonable profit is the economy of scale of the business. A huge business like Walmart, for example, can afford a net profit of just a few percent on most items because of the volume of sales, but a local florist with a small sales volume needs to make profit margin several times that just to pay her bills and make a decent profit.

Great Business Model.

If it's too good to be true IT GENERALLY IS.

Highly unethical IMO (I won't pretend to have a humble one).

Lets hope some of these people actually DO get their CPL(H) whether that's through Senior Aviation or by working hard, saving, scrimping, paying bit by bit or raiding daddy's piggy bank.

chunkybutt

5th Oct 2013, 21:47

Think you should report them to oft and watchdog bbc
https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74/contact

robinsonFlyer

6th Oct 2013, 07:13

I don't think an R44 was used though. They do their flight training and assessments in the R22, which is a lot cheaper to operate. Still, £290 for 10 mins in an R22 is outrageously expensive.

For about £100 or so LESS money, those people could have had a bonafide 30-minute trial lesson at any helicopter school in the country.

What they have been made to do instead is pay the best part of £300 for a 10-min flight under the pretense of a job interview selection process.

I'm guessing that they have been suffering in the recession like everybody else and students have been thin on the ground in recent years and I can only imagine how they rubbed their hands with glee when they dreamt this up. :=

Dozens of other flight schools could have done something similar to prop up their businesses during the recession, but didn't. What does this suggest?

And it's highly unlikely that these wannabee pilots handing over £290 for a ten-minute jolly will even know about pprune, so this will carry on happening.

Savoia

6th Oct 2013, 07:48

First of all I don't agree with what is going on and I believe that this is a practise praying on the young, naive ..

Pray, verb: to to offer devout petition (intercession) for oneself (or on behalf of another) towards God.

Prey, verb: to victimise, attack or swindle another.

Well, it is Sunday! ;)

firebird_uk

6th Oct 2013, 10:01

Having commented on previous "innovative" schemes jerrysenior seems to have come up with, it comes as no surprise to me that this one looks extremely dubious.

Get a gullible reporter to write a good news story, big yourself up, throw out a lure and then hope everyone bites. [Sound almost like a bloke who was going to fly firefighters to incidents for free!]

I feel some sympathy for the patsy who's been offered the first "apprenticeship". He must be beginning to wonder what he's got himself into. Of course, it could turn out he's the son of a mate of Jerry's.

Let's hope the press put a proper investigative journalist on to this so that the public can get to read the true story.

diginagain

6th Oct 2013, 10:56

I feel some sympathy for the patsy who's been offered the first "apprenticeship". He must be beginning to wonder what he's got himself into.

Any connection? (http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2013/09/05/lift-off-for-dudley-teenager-with-dream-job-as-a-helicopter-pilot/)

Bravo73

6th Oct 2013, 18:54

Any connection? (http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2013/09/05/lift-off-for-dudley-teenager-with-dream-job-as-a-helicopter-pilot/)

Yes.

Those are the characters that we are talking about.

misterbonkers

7th Oct 2013, 08:58

Savoia - I pray you weren't preying on me with that coment ;)

Robinsonflyer - £100 for 30minutes in an r22 is extremely cheap - which school offers that?

I was under the impression senioraviation were operating an r44 gchap?

Bravo73

7th Oct 2013, 10:23

I was under the impression senioraviation were operating an r44 gchap?

Austin Aviation have R22 & R44:

Helicopter Lessons Wolverhampton (http://www.austinaviation.co.uk/helicopter-lessons-wolverhampton-10-c.asp)

robinsonFlyer

7th Oct 2013, 11:15

Sorry for any confusion misterbonkers, I said for £100 or so less money, people can have a 30-min trial lesson... I meant £100 or so less than the £290 being charged for their 10-minute flight!

I've seen half hour trial lessons being offered anywhere from £170 to £200, depending on the school. My first lesson was in 1996 and cost £145 from Argos, for a half hour trial lesson gift voucher!

And I don't think this can be compared to buying a product at wholesale at £A and selling it retail at £B... this is completely different altogether.

This is about a scheme to get wannabee pilots in the door for a fake interview, telling them all that they're in the top 10 and asking them to part with £290 for a 10-minute 'assessment flight', followed by an email saying "you didn't get the job".

:{

stingerdinger

9th Oct 2013, 12:36

They're advertising everywhere :(

Trainee Helicopter pilot (Wolverhampton) | Career-Jobs.co.uk (http://www.career-jobs.co.uk/job/114405/trainee-helicopter-pilot.html)

I've even seen it on the government jobcentre site. Can't find the link right now but anyone who has evidence should seriously report them.

SD

flying 999

12th Oct 2013, 08:52

My son was the lucky one to get the job!.....or as it turned out the very unlucky one to have been selected by an unscrupulous organisation.........
He was given very little actual flight training or coaching, and spent most of his time taking other prospective trainees to the helipad watching them take ten minute flight tests at a cost of £290 each! and was paid just £100 per week when the trainee position is actually advertised at £250 per week!
After one month of watching hundreds of other hopeful trainees paying £290 each, he then questioned Austin Aviation as to why no one else had been appointed, but they offered no explanation. Shortly afterwards he was called in at an hour’s notice to sit an exam, for which he had very little prior coaching, but told not to worry as he could retake it if unsuccessful the first time. He then received an email stating he had failed the exam and was no longer required! No other explanation has been offered and they will not answer any enquiries regarding his position! This is a scam that nets this unscrupulous company an awful lot of money, whilst dashing the hopes of young vulnerable people. My advice to everyone is to not get taken in by this scam as there is no dream job at the end of a very short interview which will cost you £290 for the privilege!

Grenville Fortescue

12th Oct 2013, 10:07

flying 999 - Please ask your son to contact the newspaper which covered the story of him winning this so called job and let him explain to them what happened. Tell him to point the newspaper in the direction of this forum.

While he's at it, let him contact the Daily Mail also, sensationalist journalism sometimes but a much wider readership and therefore able to warn more people.

Unscrupulous conduct such as this sickens me, especially when it involves fleecing people who for the most part can ill afford to be fleeced, let alone intentionally building-up people's hopes only to dash them.

If these characters, Jerry Senior and Alan Austin are guilty of the misdeeds cited in this and other threads then they deserve to be confronted for their behaviour and made to explain their actions and, should Messrs Senior and Austin read this, then shame on you for what you are doing. Unsporting, unethical and un-British!

Disgusting.

flying 999

12th Oct 2013, 18:05

I have several contacts within the newspaper industry, and also trading standards whom I intend to make fully aware of this ' Trainee Helicopter Pilot' scam............... Austin Aviation are taking large sums of money from young hopeful applicants, who unwittingly Believe there is a chance of being taken on as trainee pilots..............however despite hundreds of applicants paying £290 each, NONE have been offered any trainee position! My son was one of the unlucky ones, who had his picture splashed all over the newspapers in order to give this scheme credibility, and attract prospective applicants....... after this
publicity he was dropped from the scheme with no credible explanation!
Despite previous posts by Jerry senior admitting that he in fact set up Austin Aviation with Alan Austin, Mr Austin is now claiming that he has no connection with Senior Aviation and is only their client!
Below is a copy of the previous post by Mr Senior, self explanatory I think!

just to clear a few pointers from the above, I own senior av, the address at 5 lower beobridge was my address when i registered the domain, if you google it you will see its 5 minutes down the road from wolverhampton airport where I also set up a flight school called austin aviation which is were g-chap comes into it, which is managed by us for the owner carl,feel free to go to austin aviation website and you will see me on the meet the team page, as for g-fox it was based at wolverhampton.we started senior av because we had students coming in asking about the vat, and because i'd claimed my tax and vat when i did my training we stared to help our students at the school,Im a bit long in the tooth but im doing my cplh ground school with phill croucher at captonline, we also purchase his superb study books and phil is also aware I set the school up with alan austin.

Bravo73

12th Oct 2013, 21:38

flying999,

You might have already seen it but I posted this in the other thread:

Have you contacted the journalist who interviewed your son for the Express & Star article? Unfortunately, the online edition of the article (see the link above) doesn't include a byline.

However, the email for the News Desk is [email protected] and the email for the editor (Keith Harrison) is [email protected]

I also think that it would be worth contacting a national newspaper and BBC Watchdog: https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74/contact

paco

13th Oct 2013, 07:53

"but im doing my cplh ground school with phill croucher at captonline, we also purchase his superb study books and phil is also aware I set the school up with alan austin."

Since my name has been mentioned, I would like to make it clear that we have no involvement with the people mentioned in this thread, except that they buy our materials for their students, and one or two of them attend our establishment for training purposes. It is the same relationship we have with many other schools and, as with them, no endorsement is given or implied.

Phil

alouette

13th Oct 2013, 08:14

That is what I thought, Phil.

flying 999

13th Oct 2013, 11:43

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=712879418728932&id=131820176834862

Looks like this scam may have already been brought to the attention of CAA

One recurring point seems to be that Austin Aviation is denying any links with Senior Aviation who are placing these Trainee adverts. However as already pointed out Austin Aviation was actually set up by Mr Senior!
It is Austin Aviation who are conducting hundreds of ten minute test flights at a cost of £290 per applicant......I wonder who pockets all this money, could it be Austin Aviation?

wrekin

13th Oct 2013, 12:38

Regarding this thread involving Senior Aviation and Austin Aviation. I am a SFH pilot who flies occasionally using Austin Aviation`s helicopters and having read all of the above, I feel compelled to put the record straight, so to speak, about some of the comments.
First of all, I know Austin Aviation and Senior Helicopters are different companies and have different offices on the airfield. I don`t know very much about Senior Helicopters, but I know that Austin Aviation DO fly 10 minute flights for potential trainee pilots supposedly being taken on by Senior Helicopters, but no way are they paid the £290 as is being suggested by some of the comments above. In fact, I think it is nearer £80 per 10 minute flight, but it could be less.
As for the trainee pilot who was taken on by Senior Helicopters, I saw the article in our local paper and I have seen the lad concerned while I have been at Austin Aviation offices. I happen to know that he has been having lessons paid for by Senior Helicopters and that my instructor has personally coached him for his Air Law Exam on several occasions, I also know the lad has been paid a weekly wage by Senior Helicopters to study, but has instead been working for another company at the airfield on the quiet instead of studying! No wonder he failed his exams and this is a most unfair comment against Austin Aviation, who have always acted fairly and with integrity in any dealings I have had with them.

flying 999

13th Oct 2013, 15:24

There are many previous posts stating that they were charged £290 for a ten minute flying test..........are they all lying? I don't think so!
As you are connected with Austin Aviation I think you may have a vested interest in ' putting the record straight' !
strange how the Trainee Pilot adverts have now been taken off the job sites, in Wolverhampton and Chester areas!
I'm leaving further investigation to the relevant authorities, no doubt they will get to the bottom of this situation.

misterbonkers

13th Oct 2013, 17:35

Flying999;

Out of interest - was your son studying Air Law in anticipation of an exam? Was he working a second job?

There is no reason why your son, despite being 'dropped' by Senior Aviation can't still obtain his dream job - if he wants to be a pilot then a lot of hard graft and determination will get him there so he needs to stick at it and remember that the world is a tough one! At least now though he will have made a good few contacts (good and bad!) in the aviation industry and that is fundamental to making a success of it. Nepotism rules in this industry.

MoAli

13th Oct 2013, 18:15

wrekin

13th Oct 2013, 18:24

Flying 999 - you did`nt read my post properly. I said Austin Aviation are paid about £80 per 10 minute flight. I have no idea whether or not Senior Helicopters charge £290 - they may do - but they pay Austin Aviation about £80 of that as a training provider able to carry out the flight.
Previous posts suggest Senior Helicopters and Austin Aviation are `in it together`. I have`nt seen any evidence of that in my time at the offices of Austin Aviation, although I believe they allowed Senior Helicopters to use their facilities at one point before Senior Helicopters established themselves at the airfield?

robinsonFlyer

13th Oct 2013, 19:52

Wrekin,

I think you're missing something when you say :

Previous posts suggest Senior Helicopters and Austin Aviation are `in it together`. I have`nt seen any evidence of that in my time at the offices of Austin Aviation, although I believe they allowed Senior Helicopters to use their facilities at one point before Senior Helicopters established themselves at the airfield?

Post 13 on THIS thread, made in May, by Jason Senior (go to page 1 of this thread), clearly states that HE started Austin Aviation.

Just incase he comes back and edit's his old message, here it is copy/pasted again :

you will see its 5 minutes down the road from wolverhampton airport where I also set up a flight school called austin aviation which is were g-chap comes into it, which is managed by us for the owner carl,feel free to go to austin aviation website and you will see me on the meet the team page, as for g-fox it was based at wolverhampton.we started senior av because we had students coming in asking about the vat, and because i'd claimed my tax and vat when i did my training we stared to help our students at the school,Im a bit long in the tooth but im doing my cplh ground school with phill croucher at captonline, we also purchase his superb study books and phil is also aware I set the school up with alan austin.

Just to be clear, this is the relevant bit:

I also set up a flight school called austin aviation which is were g-chap comes into it, which is managed by us for the owner carl,feel free to go to austin aviation website and you will see me on the meet the team page,

And this :

phil is also aware I set the school up with alan austin.

You will also note that Austin Aviation's website has recently been updated, so Jason Senior is no longer on the 'team page', which it was up until recently.

Bravo73

13th Oct 2013, 19:57

I didn't attend my flight test on the 7th..

Instead, I contacted them the next day asking for a refund..

I got this reply..

Thank you for your enquiry we will look into this and contact you within the next 48 hours.

Kind Regards.

Susan.

Customer Services.

I have heard nothing since, so I emailed them again on Thursday, yet I have still had no response.. Do I file a complaint to watchdog?

Hmmm, in hindsight, you would probably have been better off cancelling your flight test before it was scheduled, rather than afterwards.

I don't know what the T&Cs were when you signed up and paid your £290, but it might well say that in the event of non-attendance, no refunds are available.

On that basis, I'm not sure if you've got the grounds to make any complaint via Watchdog.

nomorehelosforme

13th Oct 2013, 20:03

I'm sure an informed journalist would have a field day with this, perhaps even more so a forensic accountant from HMRC! Just saying!

MoAli

13th Oct 2013, 20:26

There is no information about terms and conditions within the documents they sent in regards to my interview and then the flight test..

I'm not sure what to do next..

I admit I should have cancelled the test before hand, I just wasn't sure or not whether I was still going to attend the flight test until the day of the test itself.

I just don't understand why they can't just respond and have a little courtesy to refund £290.. surely they've made enough money by now..

Adroight

13th Oct 2013, 22:13

Mo Ali,

Welcome to the real world. If you had sold something and the person to whom you sold it didn't bother to turn up to collect it or even indicate that they would not until afterwards - would you feel that you owed them a refund?

Maybe you can sue them with one of the many 'win or no fee' agencies that are making life for everyone in UK difficult and expensive. Try being more considerate in future - it might also save you money.

nomorehelosforme

13th Oct 2013, 22:35

" Try being more considerate in future - it might also save you money."

Adroight, considerate in what respect, this guy has been ripped off, please clarify you comment!

Adroight

13th Oct 2013, 22:44

He has not been 'ripped off'. He paid for something, did not bother to tell them he didn't want it until after he should have turned up and now wants a refund. I'd say he has just learned a valuable lesson in life.

If you owned a flying school, sold a flight to someone, prepared an instructor to fly with this person who did not have the good manners to phone to cancel until the day afterwards. Would you refund him?

If he had paid for a flight, turned up on time and found no-one there to meet him and tried for a refund he would be entitled to one. If he did not get it - THEN he would be 'ripped off'.

firebird_uk

14th Oct 2013, 10:04

I think we're moving off the point here. Mo Ali had lost his money whether he turned up of not, because he unwittingly got himself involved in a scam. By not turning up he has ended up (probably) with nothing. By turning up he would have would have had a fake interview, a 10 minute Ex3 and a rejection letter a few days later. By not turning up at least he has saved his time and travel expense.

Wrekin: I accept that Austin may have been paid £80 per candidate, but any reputable school would wonder what was going on when they were presented with tens or hundreds of young hopefuls to "examine" and produce a report on. I'm sure these young hopefuls would have also asked Austin many questions about the process and what happens next, once again alerting them to the scheme they had become involved in. They could have walked away at any point, but they did not.

misterbonkers

14th Oct 2013, 18:10

And what about re fact that this generation of young hopefuls that truely believe they can obtain their 'dream job' by simply paying £290?!? Perhaps the real issue here is how society has bred a generation of people that just don't get it!

Does everyone on this site believe a 'buy one get one free' deal really is such a deal? Are DFS sofas really 'reduced' when on sale?!? Come on guys. Yes morally it's preying on the vulnerable but perhaps if schools were allowed to have more than 2 people running an egg a spoon race or if computer games didn't allow 'oh sorry you died - just hit reset option' these people might start to understand the real world a bit more!

Scam? You want a scam? We had a customer who got done for a scam during the dot com bubble - 1000 people paid £3000 for a webmasters course that basically lasted 3hrs and they got shown how to use Microsoft frontpage (available for an extra £100).

Rivet

23rd Oct 2013, 22:55

Has anyone heard anymore about Senior Helicopters as I assisted a young lad who paid his money and did the flight test. I was amazed when he said it was only ten minutes. Like many hopefuls his heart lit up when he saw the ad He is a very capable guy and good handling skills.
I have seen him fly the 767 and the 320 sims and he learns quickly.
I phoned Austin Helicopters prior to his interview asking who they were, the response was all the information on the internet!!

I hope someone will let us know the latest info.

Pasq05

willicopter

3rd Nov 2013, 18:05

Situation Vacant: Pilot Apprenticeship Position Available | Phoenix Helicopters (http://www.phoenixhelicopters.co.uk/news/situation-vacant-pilot-apprenticeship-position-available/)

I wonder if this is a case of the same scam finding its way to another area? Sounds all too familiar... be interesting to see what's in the small print and what you might have to do to qualify for the "apprenticeship".

WC

stingerdinger

4th Nov 2013, 12:38

Has anybody heard any more about Senior Helicopters? Last I heard the CAA and trading standards were investigating but despite this it seems the operation is continuing. I've come into contact with a few of the victims who have paid for check flights and they're not happy punters. Every one has been told they're "down to the final ten" :=

SD

Flingingwings

4th Nov 2013, 17:56

WC,

I'd like to hope the scam isn't spreading....

Questions I'd have if applying:

Its a three year apprenticeship to get to CPL. The company formed in Apr 2010 so this success story progressed at a lightning pace and gained employment very rapidly. (Wasn't news worthy within the company news pages either)

The link details that most costs of the training will be covered by the apprenticeship......

But then says all flight training and groundschool will be covered in lieu of salary...

It was a few years back but i managed zero to cpl in 18 months whilst working full time. So what else will the apprentice be doing?

Hope this is sincere but like the other scam, ask the obvious questions before parting with cash..

helimutt

4th Nov 2013, 20:15

It has scam written all over it. Someone has probably seen how the other lot have run their possible scam, and decided wow, £290 for 10 min trial lessons, i want some of that!

In this day and age, you have to say to yourself, if something seems too good to be true in the helicopter industry, then it will be too good to be true.

Due diligence! Do your homework. Dont lose money to these fly-by-night scammers. (If thats what they are)

Bravo73

4th Nov 2013, 20:47

Situation Vacant: Pilot Apprenticeship Position Available |*Phoenix Helicopters (http://www.phoenixhelicopters.co.uk/news/situation-vacant-pilot-apprenticeship-position-available/)

I wonder if this is a case of the same scam finding its way to another area? Sounds all too familiar... be interesting to see what's in the small print and what you might have to do to qualify for the "apprenticeship".

WC

Why not put the question direct to one of Phoenix's examiners? http://www.pprune.org/members/85352-timprice

willicopter

6th Nov 2013, 06:16

Fligingwings, you make a good point. It's the first we have heard of this supposed success story and if it was my company and I'd had a success story like that then it would be all over the website to encourage the young new hopefuls that the system really works. I'd say the success story is fictitious and being used as bait to draw in poor unspecting victims like the Senior helicopters scam. I really hope I am wrong. Perhaps someone from the company can come on here and clarify the situation?

WC

Flap-Back

12th Nov 2013, 11:03

Senior Helicopters Recruiting (http://www.seniorhelicopters.co.uk/recruiting-19-w.asp)

Wow they're now advertising to recruit 72 helicopter valeters who will get paid £375 per day! I might look at changing my career - I wonder how much cash you have to part with upfront to apply for one of those positions!

The plot thickens...

FB

firebird_uk

12th Nov 2013, 11:27

Sounds like the fake franchise ploy. You pay us to train you how to wash a helicopter and supply you with "special equipment" to do the work.

A few £K lighter we then sell you a region where we say we have had loads of enquiries from. We download helicopter owners in that area from G-INFO and tell you it's a client base.

It doesn't matter that you earn nothing because zero is in the region "up to £375".

puntosaurus

12th Nov 2013, 13:12

The mystery is revealed here (http://www.seniorhelicopters.co.uk/vs-course-19-c.asp). Bargain !

hookes_joint

12th Nov 2013, 15:19

With all three years in operation it's pretty amazing they can't even put one picture of their own helicopters or operations on the website. I'm sure PJs and the New York charter departments would not like their aircraft pictures affiliated with Senior.

Nigd3

12th Nov 2013, 17:15

Or employ someone who can spell

'and the position will be past to another applicant in your area'

Bravo73

12th Nov 2013, 18:59

stingerdinger

13th Nov 2013, 12:03

What an absolute disgrace to our industry. These people should be ashamed of themselves. How do you sleep at night Mr Senior?

SD

Ready2Fly

13th Nov 2013, 13:45

Usually people with this kind of businessplan and attitude do not even associate any wrongdoing with this...

He enjoys his monthly pay-cheque i bet.

helipaul

12th Dec 2013, 16:23

A quick response for the benefit off willicopter and helimutt and anyone else concerned about our apprenticeship scheme.

Apologies for delay in replying but I don’t use this site very much as it rarely hosts any accuracy. I am Paul Andrews from Phoenix Helicopter Academy and to clarify our position:
Our Apprenticeship Scheme is completely genuine, apprentices do NOT have to part with ANY Money for our training, their only costs are outside costs of for a CAA medical and the Distance Learning Providers ground school outside our training environment, it’s a three year apprenticeship to cover the full 185 hours flying required, we have at present two on our 2013 enrolment, one has done 40 hours flying this year and one has done around 50. (AT NO COST TO THEMSELVES).
We do not expect anyone to pay for any elements of their flying on the basis that we may pay for other elements. It’s all included. We only intend to take on one person for the 2014 enrolment.
The vacancy has been running on our web site for over a month and we have moved to the interview stage for our 2014 intake. No pre-entry requirements have been expected.
As to why we have not added a news item about our first apprentice joining the North Sea, This was at his request.
If anyone has any real concerns apart from thoughts that have made up their mind and jumped to their opinions prior to assessing the facts please don’t hesitate to contact me. My email is on the vacancy advert.:)

Grenville Fortescue

12th Dec 2013, 16:34

Apologies for delay in replying but I don’t use this site very much as it rarely hosts any accuracy.

Oh really?

I have found the exact opposite to be true.

helipaul

12th Dec 2013, 16:47

To refer to something as a 'scam' without checking its validity could hardly be regarded as accurate research?

Grenville Fortescue

12th Dec 2013, 16:57

Hmm, yes. You would be right of course if it wasn't for that little penchant you have for accuracy and with regard to which please note Willicopter's words/exclamations in bold.

I wonder if this is a case of the same scam finding its way to another area ?

What is important however is that you are trying to provide some assurance that you are not ripping people off and which, on the surface, (and I emphasise the latter) seems reasonable.

The derogatory remark about Rotorheads was however (in my view) not only unnecessary but more significantly, factually incorrect. The forum is advertised as a "rumour network" but in practice trades in high volumes of factually accurate information.

helipaul

12th Dec 2013, 17:36

I believe there were a few more detrimental comments than the one quoted but I accept your remarks and, thanks for that. :)

Bravo73

12th Dec 2013, 17:45

I can also vouch for the Phoenix scheme. I work with the previous recipient (AL) on the NS.

You will also note from my previous posts on this thread that willicopter ignored my suggestions to contact Tim Price directly. I suspect that willicopter is/was either a troll or just looking to discredit Phoenix.

lukespoor

12th Nov 2014, 21:14

Hey guys, bit of a bump here but after randomly searching Senior Helicopters to see whats going on with them now I found this post and this one on facebook (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=712879418728932&id=131820176834862)

I applied for the job, got through to the flight test and paid my £290 only to find out I was unsuccessful but now found out that this was all a massive scam. Has anything been done about this? Are we able to get out money back?

helimutt

13th Nov 2014, 02:30

I suggest anyone searching for Senior and Austin in the helicopter world, go back to post #21 and look again at the names of the people who had given their reviews. Was I the only one to notice the lack of originality with the surnames used? Essex? Manchester? etc etc? Come on. :E
Well I thought it was funny anyway. ;)

I hope anyone involved in ripping off new pilots, gets exactly what they deserve.

Helilog56

13th Nov 2014, 11:27

Sorry to say lp....but consider your money invested into a lesson learned, about people asking for your money over the Internet....:(

lukespoor

24th Nov 2014, 19:28

Have spoken to PayPal about trying to possibly get my money back, they are unable to help in anyway due to the transaction being over 180 days old so I have now taken it to The Financial Ombudsman. They have contacted Paypal with a complaint so I am now waiting to hear back from paypal.

Nortski

15th Jan 2015, 16:57

Jason Senior is at again, although this time something completely different!

I'm embarrassed to say that I have fallen foul at this scam:

A job post recently on Indeed by a company called Hero Kits, www.herokits.co.uk, were seeking people to assemble a number of Iron Man helmets, over 1000, for an order they have from a client.

I sent my CV as I'm a little desperate for some work and duly received a reply giving me log in details to their website. When logging in you are presented with a 3.30 hour blurry 'training video' with no sound. This video shows a man, who doesn't show his face, putting together the Iron Man helmet from foam and hot glue (to be plastic coated on the next stage) - Turns out this video was created by someone else that has nothing to do with Hero Kits.

On the website it states that if you pay £75 they will send the tools and material needed to create the helmets. They will pay £200 for every 3 helmets you complete that pass QC. The £75 is a one off charge, every subsequent materials sent will be free of charge.

Everything seemed genuine enough, it is a good quality website with lots of information. So yes, I sent my £75. After a few days I did indeed receive the tools and material. The tools turned out to be a £5 glue gun, £2 pack of glue sticks and a £1.50 plastic knife.

The cheap tools roused my suspicions a little. On the off chance, I Google his Paypal name, Jason Senior. Bingo, I landed here (no pun intended).

HeroKits address is the same as Senior Helicopters.

His website claims that Hero Kits make high-end costumes for the movie industry. But a quick lookup on Nominet reveals that www.herokits.co.uk was registered on 30-12-14 (2 weeks ago). Hardly time to be an established company in this genre.

I put forward my findings to them via email and that I believe I have been scammed. He replied confirming that Senior Helicopters was his but was no scam and forwarded a link to a news paper article that details a young man who won a helicopter training course. Obviously; the best scams are carefully planned so one instance may well be genuine.

I won't be wasting my time making these helmets as obviously they will not pass any so called QC.