Argentina buys Mirage F1s

[HaveQuick2]

Argentina buys 16 Mirage F 1 from Spain; half have air-refuelling capacity ? MercoPress (http://en.mercopress.com/2013/10/01/argentina-buys-16-mirage-f-1-from-spain-half-have-air-refuelling-capacity)

The Argentine Air Force anticipates the incorporation of the Mirage F-1, which will replace the Mirage III in process of decommissioning” reads page 115 of the budget bill. The revelation is not new, Defence minister Agustin Rossi had announced in August that “we are working with the government of Spain” on the possible purchase of aircraft but did not provide further details.
After 22 years in service, the Mirages were decommissioned by the Spanish Air Force at the airbase of Los Llanos in Albacete during a ceremony last June. They had been refurbished in the nineties with improved avionics and firing capacity.
Apparently the Mirage F-1 has a last generation laser inertial system which ensures autonomous navigation of great precision with a GPS and a computer that optimizes besides navigation, the targeting system.
They have a maximum speed of 1.320 kilometres and flight autonomy of 500 miles and of the 16 eight have air fuelling capacity from a Hercules C130, according to the Spanish Air Force.
The Spanish air force is replacing its ageing Mirage with Euro-fighter Typhoons.
The Argentine air force currently has an estimated 25 Mirage 5 and Mirage III with over thirty years in service, some of them fought in the South Atlantic conflict with Britain in 1982 when Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands. However according to Argentine sources the aircraft are virtually out of use because of lack of spares and an adequate maintenance.
The F1 is described as a fighter bomber of third generation, designed and constructed by Dassault Aviation and became operational in France at the beginning of the seventies. It was exported to over a dozen countries and including Morocco and Jordan, and over 700 of them have been built.
So far besides the budget confirmation there is no further news, or even when the F-1 will be arriving in Argentina, most probably for the Tandil air base Likewise pilots and technical teams will have to be trained for the incorporations.

[Lonewolf_50]

The Argentine air force currently has an estimated 25 Mirage 5 and Mirage III with over thirty years in service, some of them fought in the South Atlantic conflict with Britain in 1982 when Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands. However according to Argentine sources the aircraft are virtually out of use because of lack of spares and an adequate maintenance.
While not wishing to be a stick in the mud, won't they run into the spares problem soon enough with the F-1? :confused:

Flip side is: not everyone needs a Gen V or Gen IV for their fighter fleet. Fit your requirements and dreams to your budget.

*Hello, dear friends in Washington, are you listening?*

[tanimbar]

"won't they run into the spares problem soon enough with the F-1?"

Oh, I do hope so.

[diginagain]

If they'd been a little quicker they could have bought some part-worn Harriers.

[Marcantilan]

According to some sources, the F1s will come with loads of spares, the sim and weapons.

Besides that, is junk with wings. I don´t know why the AAF does not go with the Kfir C.10 (also offered) or ask for some F-16s at AMARC.

Also in the budget the modernization of the C-130 fleet, the ending of a TR-1700 sub, MBT upgrades and another things.

Regards!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I remember seeing a couple of F1 pilots having a half-bottle of wine with their lunch whilst on a Typhoon Uniform at Reims/Champagne.

"Aren't we doing DACT with you this afternoon?"

"Oui,...but we're going to lose anyway...." Gallic smile & shrug.


and if you can beat it with the Tornado F3, you can beat it with anything!

[Courtney Mil]

Just more targets for the Typhoons based at MPA!

[Fareastdriver]

pilots having a half-bottle of wine with their lunch

Only a half-bottle? Last time I took off from France to the UK we had a bottle each in the in-flight rations.

[glad rag]

And how are they going to source this "budget"?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Just more targets for the Typhoons based at MPA!

For a moment lets pretend they are being brought by a country who didn't take a leaf out of Nigeria's book on how to support aircraft fleets. Given the amount they are buying what is likely to be the maximum amount Argentina could generate for operations in one go?

[cokecan]

Glad rag,

probably in the same way that every other nation state does - they'll print the money they need, or borrow it.

everyone is quite happy to say that Argentina is skint, bankrupt etc.. yet somehow they manage to keep bread in the shops, police on the street, and the lights on.

them buying fighters and all the support kit suggests that the cupboard isn't quite as bare as we'd been lead to believe...

[cokecan]

THS - i was under the impression that its 16 flying airframes and four cannibal airframes, a full spares package and conversion training. the unconfirmed information i've seen suggests the training happens to be taking place at a Spanish base that also flies Typhoon.

they appear to be replacing the already OOS Mirage III/V's, this buy will see them with 11 Super Etendards, 34 A-4AR's, and 16 (?) Mirage FI's.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Cokecan - I understand what their fleet size is but obviously owning a 16 aircraft fleet isn't the same as being able to get those 16 a/c airborne at the same time, let alone fit for operations.

Wasn't one of the arguments in relation to binning the Harrier fleet that the overall fleet size had dropped to a point where the size of the actual 'operational' fleet was too small to be sustainable. How does that work with 16 a/c?

[Pontius Navigator]

what is likely to be the maximum amount Argentina could generate for operations in one go?
It would depend if it was offensive or defensive.

Defensive implies an unplanned transition to war from a peacetime stance. Offensive implies time to generate all assets before H-hour. In the latter the figure could be near 94%. In the former maybe 75%.

[Davef68]

Wasn't one of the arguments in relation to binning the Harrier fleet that the overall fleet size had dropped to a point where the size of the actual 'operational' fleet was too small to be sustainable. How does that work with 16 a/c?

Too small to sustain operations in Afghanistan and provide aircraft for use elsewhere (e.g an Ellamy type operation) was the reason given if I recall correctly - when choosing between the Tornado and Harrier to bin, the former's larger numbers won the day.

Argentina originallly operated only 17 Mirage IIEAs, so small numbers in an operational fleet are nothing new for them

[Easy Street]

I think the ballpark figure for sustainable combat aircraft fleet management in a 'proper' air force is about 40% of airframes being in use at any particular time, with about 30-40% in storage and the rest in various depths of maintenance. Of course that's for aircraft with a number of years remaining... as the end approaches then all of the aircraft can be flown.

Equally, if life is cheap and you're not particularly bothered about niceties like airworthiness or accountability, and most of your flying takes place over the sea, you could just keep flying the things until the donk quits or the wings fall off. Might be an attractive option for a cash-strapped nation in need of some new toys!

[glad rag]

Glad rag,

probably in the same way that every other nation state does - they'll print the money they need, or borrow it.

everyone is quite happy to say that Argentina is skint, bankrupt etc.. yet somehow they manage to keep bread in the shops, police on the street, and the lights on.



Why Argentina Is Such An Economic Mess - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/why-argentina-is-such-an-economic-mess-2012-11)

BBC News - Argentina looting spreads to Buenos Aires province (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-20821946)

BBC News - Argentine police protest over pay cuts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-19824992)

http://rt.com/files/news/argentina-looting-620/policeman-opens-fire-tried.jpg

Good ol time honoured Argie solution...


"whatever"

[Marcantilan]

Well, the defense budget is less than 1 % of the GNP and US$ 2 billions is not a lot of money for a country over a year (Argentina GNP is more or less between US$ 450 / 500 billions) The F1 deal is affordable (but I hope it could stall at any point).

I really don´t like the current government and I think they have no clue about the economy, international policy, internal security, so on, so on (on the happy side, they will lost the next elections, so they are on the way out). But, on their defense, life is quite normal here, you could be at night fairly safe, you could travel, buy Ipads and do the things average Joe do. This is the third world (yes, remember that), but we are...fairly well. We could be better, for sure.

About the comment about the AAF being cannon fodder for the MPA based Typhoons, I think the "joke" is out of place.

Regards,

[Courtney Mil]

Not so much the AAF being "cannon fodder", the comment is about the contrast in technology between Typhoon and Mirage F1.

[Davef68]

Marcantilan,

Are the F1s being bought as interceptors?

[cokecan]

i have read they are being bought to undertake the drugs interdiction task in the north of the country.

how accurate, or indeed realistic, that is is something i don't know...

what i do know is that they will shortly have around 60 Super Etendard/A-4AR/ Mirage FI's, all PGM capable, all on home turf, and all with the benefit of choosing their own time.

Typhoon might be light years ahead of them, but 4 Typhoons can't be in 30 places at once...

[AR1]

Neither can 16 F1's..;)

[melmothtw]

Typhoon might be light years ahead of them, but 4 Typhoons can't be in 30 places at once...


No, but the 24 Meteors they can carry can be...almost (I am, of course, being facetious).

[kbrockman]

Is anybody really believing that Argentina is going to wage another war with the UK over the Falklands, really???
This is not 1982 junta ruled Argentina any more, sure there are still a lot of bad feelings but I don't believe their is any support for such an "adventure" among the Argentinian population, let alone a real capability from the Argentinian forces.

4 Typhoons might be a limited force but it would be more than sufficient (combined with SAM weapons) to hold of long enough for reinforcements to arrive ,additional Typhoons/Tornado's, Tankers,AWACS, Transport with more weapons and troops can probably be sent within 48 hours, I guess.

[cokecan]

''Is anybody really believing that Argentina is going to wage another war with the UK over the Falklands, really???
This is not 1982 junta ruled Argentina any more, sure there are still a lot of bad feelings but I don't believe their is any support for such an "adventure" among the Argentinian population, let alone a real capability from the Argentinian forces''...

am i confident that war - or skirmish - over the FI is not part of the policy plan of this or any forseeable Argentine Government? yes, i am.

am i confident that such an idea would never start to look attractive to a government that can't pay the bills, faces 30% inflation, is being accused of rampant corruption and needs a quick boost in popularity? no, i'm not.

[AR1]

Not really. Us jumping up and down over F1's is no different to them jumping up and down over the latest warship.

I'll probably be working there next month anyway. The reality is no matter what the mouthpieces say, business and trade is proceeding quite nicely for both of us, and that's the way it should be.

[Marcantilan]

Hello all,

The F1s will be bought to replace the Mirage III / Mirage V (Mara and Finger) fleet. So, it will be here an interceptor / ground attack aircraft. The trouble is the Spaniards modified it to full mud movers, and the fighter role is really marginal. Well, same with the A4ARs, a ground attack plane rated here as a multirole fighter...

The "North Shield" Ops (control and protection of the northern frontier, specially against drug cartels from Paraguay and Bolivia) includes now a couple of radars and all AAF Sqn´s are rotating to fulfill the task. I think the F1 will go north some time, then go back and so on. For sure, not the best plane to intercept a Cessna.

Also, I think that any local government that hint they are planning to attack military the islands it will be out of the office in a couple of days. A shooting war is really out of the question.

Regards!

PD: AR1, PM me, I will point you to the more interesting military museums here (don´t tell the miss, of course...)

[TEEEJ]

Argentine Mirage F1 buy reportedly stalls

Argentine sources have told IHS Jane's that the planned procurement of 16 Dassault Mirage F1M fighters from the Spanish Air Force has stalled and could possibly be cancelled.

Local media reports indicated that the Argentine Air Force (FAA) has begun analysing other options, including second-hand Dassault Mirage 2000s from France or Brazil, but appears to be leaning towards an Israeli offer of 18 IAI Lahav Kfir Block 60 multi-role fighters for USD500 million, with a possible delivery date some 15 months after a contract signature.

Argentine Mirage F1 buy reportedly stalls - IHS Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/32019/argentine-mirage-f1-buy-reportedly-stalls)

Kfir Block 60

? IAI Kfir Block 60 ? // Israel´s Fighter Aircraft - HD - YouTube

[Trim Stab]

i have read they are being bought to undertake the drugs interdiction task in the north of the country.

how accurate, or indeed realistic, that is is something i don't know...

They are currently tendering for bids for supply of surveillance aircraft for that task.

[sandozer]

Interesting to see that the UK is still giving Argentina foreign aid money, can anyone in our government justify that? Also the EU sloshing euros into their empty coffers.

[Heathrow Harry]

no way they will get those F1's until they pay back REPSOL, the spanish oil company, for all the acreage they nationalised last year for a start

far more likely that BA would sell them some Typhoons TBH

[Mend em]

Harry - didn't know British Airways had any Typhons to sell...

[gr4techie]

Just goes to show there is no such thing as "country x is our friend and ally". Because, with arms dealing, if the price is right they would sell their grandmas soul to the devil.

[sandozer]

Run through Google translate.

Argentina, cada vez más cerca de comprar aviones Kfir israelíes (http://www.radiojai.com.ar/online/notiDetalle.asp?id_Noticia=68833)

[Just This Once...]

A Block 60 'K' is quite a machine and a credible adversary.

[sandozer]

Very credible machine. The Israeli Air Force : Roaring Again (http://www.iaf.org.il/4399-41016-en/IAF.aspx)

[The Helpful Stacker]

In somewhat connected news.....

Argentina Appoints Daniel Filmus As Secretary For Malvinas To Campaign For Handover Of Falkland Islands (http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/4556591/)

[TBM-Legend]

Frankly in the UK context I'd be more worried about the rise of al Qaeda than Argentina...

[cokecan]

but if i lived on the Falklands i know which i'd be more worried about...

Argentinas political campaign is not worrying, what is worrying is what happens when Argentinas (or perhps more correctly, Argentinas dreadful politicians'..) political campaign is seen to be not working.

not getting movement on the FI is dissapointing for Kirchner, not getting movement on the FI when she's invested so much political, economic and diplomatic capital in doing so is spectacularly embarrassing. particularly when inflation is at 30%.

(politically) desperate times etc...

[500N]

"(politically) desperate times etc..."

Agree, but not suicidal times.

They would also have to contend with the possibility of sub and ship
launched cruise missiles as well with no way of defending against them.

Wouldn't look good for Argie pollies if all of a sudden after an Argie first move
all the military airfields had smoke and flames all over them ?

[cokecan]

actually, it would - Argentina is attempting to portray the FI as a base for expansionist British military hegemony in the South Atlantic (that dreadful presentation at the UN being part of this..), as a threat to 'leftist' LatAm. little would help underscore that more than a 14-0 air engagement and a broken runway at Rio Gallagos, regardless of how lawful and defensive such UK action was.

its worth remembering quite how divorced Argentine politicians are from their military - they don't like it, they don't trust it, they don't value it, and a good many, like el Presidente, despise it for the Junta. it might be suicide for the A-4 pilots, but its not suicide for the fragrant Christina...

[Biggus]

500N,

Unfortunately you are making the classic mistake of confusing military capability with political will/leadership.


Whilst the British military might well have the capability to "take out" Argentine military airfields, do you seriously consider that current UK political leadership (let alone a year or so from now - image if Ed Miliband was UK PM at the time) would authorize such an action?



As cokecan also pointed out, in the unlikely event such an action were approved, Argentina just turns to the world, invites all the press in to see the damage (who is to say some collateral damage wouldn't be "invented" just before the press got there), and plays the victim to imperial aggression. Lots of noise in the UN, universal condemnation of the British, massive sympathy for Argentina, etc...


So, firstly I can't see your recommended course of action being approved, and if it was I think it would backfire......

Apart from that - great plan!!

[Heathrow Harry]

Rio Gallegos!

What a dump - a few battered old dispersal shelters for Skyhawks - no obvious dispersal field and one runway

If you dropped a small A-Bomb on the town it couldn't look much worse TBH

[Lyneham Lad]

Latest update (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/argentina-seeks-kfir-deal-with-israel-394770/) on Argentina's proposed fighter purchase on Flight International:-

Argentina is negotiating a deal to purchase 18 rebuilt and upgraded Kfir Block 60 fighters from Israel Aerospace Industries. The acquisition could be an alternative to a planned deal to buy 16 former-Spanish air force Dassault Mirage F1s for the nation's air force.

IAI in September 2013 said it was in advanced negotiations with at least two air forces that wanted to purchase its Block 60-standard Kfir. A company source projected that first aircraft deliveries could occur within a year of a deal being signed, with a market existing to sell "two- to three-squadrons".

As the latest upgrade of the Israeli-made fighter, the new configuration involves giving the General Electric J79-powered aircraft a total overhaul, and re-equipping it with an Elta Systems EL/M-2032 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and an open architecture avionics suite.

Originally developed for the Israeli air force and first flown more than 40 years ago, the Kfir is currently in active service with three operators: Colombia, Ecuador and Sri Lanka. The Colombian air force's C10/C12-standard examples (one pictured above) are the most recent to have been supplied, and are equipped with Elta's AESA radar, large-screen multifunction displays, a Rafael Litening targeting pod. They are also adapted for in-flight refuelling.