UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 3 [Archive]

SilsoeSid

5th Jul 2013, 20:24

South Wales Police raise serious concerns about National Police Air Service

SOUTH Wales Police will only give up its helicopter and join a national service when it gets guarantees about the level of service, according to the force's commissioner.
Both the joint South Wales/Gwent and the Dyfed-Powys choppers are due to be axed this month, as the National Police Air Service (NPAS) takes over from dedicated force aircraft.
South Wales Police raise serious concerns about National Police Air Service | This is South Wales (http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/South-Wales-Police-raise-concerns-National-Police/story-19452358-detail/story.html#axzz2YCdqV0mB)

Is the PCC being told the full story?

10. Where are the new bases going to be located?

Under NPAS it is proposed that there will be twenty three air support bases at strategic locations that provide the operational capability to deliver an enhanced service. The NPAS base locations are:

Barton Moss, Greater Manchester
Benson, Oxfordshire
Birmingham Airport, Birmingham
Boreham, Essex
Bournemouth Airport, Bournemouth
Carr Gate, West Yorkshire
Durham Tees Valley Airport, Teeside
Exeter Airport, Exeter
Filton, Avon and Somerset
Halfpenny Green, Wolverhampton
Hawarden, North Wales
Honington, Suffolk
Humberside Airport, Humberside
Husbands Bosworth, Leicestershire
Lippitt’s Hill, Essex
Newcastle Airport, Newcastle
Pembrey, Dyfed-Powys
Redhill, Surrey
Rhuddlan, Denbighshire
Ripley, Derbyshire
Sheffield, South Yorkshire
St Athan, Glamorgan, South Wales
Warton, Lancashire
NPAS Frequently Asked Questions | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/faqs)

...or maybe it's personal.
A politician, after the expenses escapade, still looking out for himself?

A police helicopter operating over Penarth tonight is reported to have spotlighted three burglars attempting to break in to premises at 2 Stanwell Road – next door to the home of South Wales Police and Crime Commissioner Alun Michael.
Penarth Daily News (http://penarthnews.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/chopper-coppers-put-the-spotlight-on-penarth-shine-back/)
:suspect:

Thomas coupling

10th Jul 2013, 20:20

I have heard lately that NPAS engineering is being wound up? Surely not at this early stage....now why would that be then lads?:\

Colonal Mustard

11th Jul 2013, 20:14

I heard the same today, interesting, wonder whether it'll end up with G4S? :rolleyes:

Fly_For_Fun

12th Jul 2013, 20:10

NPAS Engineering closed as of end of the month.

backtothebeat

12th Jul 2013, 21:16

What is meant by "NPAS engineering".
Where is/was that based..?

Fly_For_Fun

12th Jul 2013, 21:31

NPAS Engineering was ECPM. Based at Wattisham.

Art of flight

13th Jul 2013, 08:19

Very sad, great people doing a superb job over the years despite lack of funds and equipment, and working in very dark and cold conditions!

Good luck to all.

Fly_For_Fun

13th Jul 2013, 17:10

Very sad. Looks like ECUK will have all the servicing for NPAS with no competition. Lets hope they made a good deal.

Helinut

13th Jul 2013, 19:08

Very dubious. I always get an uncomfortable feeling when stuff gets single-sourced. It usually ends in tears, or worse.

No doubt if asked, NPAS would say "it will improve efficiency and cost-effectiveness" and allow all helicopters to engage warp drive.

However, I should say that I have usually found the engineers in the hangar to be reliable.

PANews

13th Jul 2013, 21:50

EC UK only have the EC type maintenance until the results of the current tender process to decide who will run the support from April 1, 2014.

With the untimely demise of South Yorkshire and the long term actuality of use of EC UK engineers by Devon & Cornwall it was [probably] decided to clear the decks prior to the new order whatever that brings.

Perhaps the argument here should shift to which organisation can provide maintenance for both the MD and EC or whether it will have to be split by make and then who can do the deed as well as PAS and ECUK? In each case I guess spares will have to arrive via Oxford or Staverton.... with little option.

I do not know which is best but PAS and EC UK will be the benchmarks.

Filtre de fadaises

17th Jul 2013, 09:58

O, venerable Daedalae of the twirling blades, draw heart that those less worthy, whose bombastic blather blinded the Gods with vindication before assassination, will surely rue the day they wielded their knives with such ill-considered counsel.
Public torment will surely possess those who guard the gelt when realisation appears, sure and steady like the diurnal orb above the horizon, to shine its rays upon the serpent, it’s constrictor coils wrapped tightly round the prize but its belly still distended with the contents of the erstwhile martyr, too late to have saved the last bastion of competition from the pyre of pecuniary exactness, and all enacted without sagacity, dexterity, sensitivity or redress. R.I.P. :ugh:

ericferret

17th Jul 2013, 10:42

Interesting piece on the BBC news today about the South Yorkshire police aircraft log books being stolen and arrests being made. Might be old news but I hadn't seen it before.

airpolice

17th Jul 2013, 11:01

From BBC News

Two members of staff at South Yorkshire Police have been arrested on suspicion of stealing the force helicopter's logbook.

It is understood one of those arrested is a police officer and the other a member of staff. Both have been released on bail.

In a statement, South Yorkshire Police said the arrests were "part of an ongoing criminal investigation".

SilsoeSid

17th Jul 2013, 11:59

Anyone else read this summers Helicopter Life Mag yet?

Interesting comment on the Rotary Operators Conference held at Battersea last month.
The conference were told;
The Met Police have three EC145s but at the moment one is in for deep maintenance and one of the other two is running low on hours, this is for many operators a normal situation.

On a daily basis the Met Police helicopter will be called for tasking sixty times of which twenty four will be fulfilled. Partly this is because some of the tasks are not suitable for a helicopter but other reasons include the weather, the limited number of helicopters and occasionally because of crewing issues (pilots running out of hours for example).

At the moment The Met Police are not signed up for NPAS, which is run from West Yorkshire. If they do however there will inevitably be inummerable changes to deal with on top of the daily issues.

Helicopter Life (http://www.helicopterlife.com/2013_3/caasnub.html)

Not signed up!!!
Only 5 months to get that little bombshell sorted then :eek:
Latest NPAS News (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/about-us/national-police-air-service/latest-npas-news)

PANews

17th Jul 2013, 11:59

Someone way up on high probably thought this process would be quick and simple even with sections of the police aviation community being antagonistic towards the whole concept.

That someone clearly never spent 30 years on the street with real police persons.

All very predictable.

I wonder whether anyone from NPAS has had a delivery of a lorry load of manure onto their drive..... or a 1,000 bricks....yet? :E

HeliStudent

17th Jul 2013, 14:50

Two members of staff at South Yorkshire Police have been arrested on suspicion of stealing the force helicopter's logbook.

BBC News - South Yorkshire Police staff held on helicopter logbook theft (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-23340953)

Thomas coupling

17th Jul 2013, 21:07

What the heck is going on ???
Why would you steal the god damn log book??/

Anyone?

Anthony Supplebottom

17th Jul 2013, 21:11

An EADS sponsored "dirty tricks" agent trying to generate downtime against MDH's product! :suspect:

SilsoeSid

17th Jul 2013, 21:44

One feared dead after car driven off Beachy Head | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/17/car-driven-off-beachy-head)

One feared dead after car driven off Beachy Head
Police helicopter locates vehicle off East Sussex coast but incoming tide hampers rescue efforts

Don Ellis, senior officer at Birling Gap lifeboat station, said the inshore lifeboat had been unable at first to find the car, which was eventually located by the Sussex police helicopter.

He said he believed only one person was inside the vehicle but rescue efforts had been hampered by the incoming tide.

Can someone confirm where this Sussex ac had to come from. I always thought it a shame Shoreham was closed down. It would have been well within the 20 minute circle for this incident, I wonder if 20 mins and a more locally familiar crew would have a made a difference.

Eastbourne to;
Redhill 20 mins
Benson 40 mins
Boreham 35 mins
Shoreham 10 mins
(Direct line, flying time point to point @ 110 kts)

• NPAS will provide an air service to 98% of the population of England and Wales within 20 minutes.

Maybe someone should give thought as to where the other 2% might be when they need an air service :(

The other 2%... like in this incident;
Sussex Police/Ambulance Helicopter Sea Rescue Shoreham Beach Feb 2000
Girl Rescued at Shoreham Beach Says Thank You

Time to start listening and less of the flannel;
BBC News - Sussex concerns over police helicopter response times (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-15322762)

"At the moment the whole of Sussex gets a response within 20 minutes and a lot of areas are less than that," he said. (Bob Brown Sussex Fed)

"But in East Sussex 300,000 residents are going to be outside of that area and it will be more like 30 minutes to get there.

"This includes Beachy Head, which is an area that attracts a lot of attention, unfortunately, during the year."

He said the helicopter was extremely important to trace missing people in rural areas as well as catching criminals.

A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers said: "The National Police Air Service is not merely a cost saving exercise.

"While the current service is capable of doing its day job, artificial boundaries have meant that helicopters are restricted to operating within their own force area or consortia.

"A truly national, borderless service will ensure effective coverage of urban and rural areas."

Effective :confused:

Coconutty

18th Jul 2013, 10:28

What the heck is going on ???
Why would you steal the god damn log book??I must admit when hearing that it had been "lost" to wondering if there was something a bit deeper and darker going on.

Why would it have been stolen ?

One can only imagine that there might have been something in it,
that someone didn't want someone else to become aware of :uhoh: ?

Sussex - the videos, facts, and response times quoted speak for themselves,
as do the ACPO spokesman's comment (I wonder who that was :rolleyes: ) :
"The National Police Air Service is not merely a cost saving exercise.It's not ! ?

It was originally a plan to provide a more effective service at a reduced cost - nationally,
but it now seems to be attracting more and more criticism
( by those that have not yet been silenced because they are now part of it,
and to criticse their employers would not do them any favours http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif ),
for failing to achieve either of those original objectives.

I stand to be corrected however - so come on, let's have some real life examples
of how joining NPAS has provided a more effective service,
or has resulted in any cost savings - anyone ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

PANews

18th Jul 2013, 11:50

I believe that only one force in southern Wales has not 'signed up' to NPAS.

I suspect that the Helicopter Life statement actually meant 'joined.'

There are several still outside NPAS - it has passed them by for a number of reasons - including complexity.

NPAS was pretty much invented in a northern office of an ACPO ranking person [who is unlikely therefore not to sign his current force to the club] without full appreciation of the complexities created by 30 odd police air units each with their own idea of how to run a police air unit, each with their own contracts and HR departments to sign up the aircraft, maintenance, crew provision and real estate.

Worst case there might have been 100 different models to squeeze into one common set up....... even so it was probably dozens of complex negotiations.

And of course the PLAN was announced from a southern office of a different ACPO ranking person who equally had no real appreciation of the many differences various ACPO ranks had created with their toys so what is emerging is a menu of things which fall outside the desk top plan. Basing at fogbound airfields went by the board for a start.....

Not a job I would relish.

And as for moving the base from Shoreham [to Dunsfold then Redhill] surely you cannot be serious that a 'good' base for any of these terrestrial resources should be on a beach where 50% of your radius of action is water! [buit I am not saying Redhill is good]

Windsor Loft

18th Jul 2013, 13:48

PANews

There are NO forces that have joined in S.Wales. AFAIK Dyfed Powys, South Wales and Gwent have all rejected the NPAS proposal.

SilsoeSid

18th Jul 2013, 20:47

And as for moving the base from Shoreham [to Dunsfold then Redhill] surely you cannot be serious that a 'good' base for any of these terrestrial resources should be on a beach where 50% of your radius of action is water! [buit I am not saying Redhill is good]

But if the remaining 50% that is inland or on the shoreline happens to be an area where lives can regularly be saved, and is within a few minutes of a base, surely that is effective use of the helicopter.

Variation of an old question...How much money does a life save?

SilsoeSid

18th Jul 2013, 20:57

There are NO forces that have joined in S.Wales. AFAIK Dyfed Powys, South Wales and Gwent have all rejected the NPAS proposal.

And when their contracts run out, it doesn't matter if they have rejected it or not, there is a Home Office Mandate in place. :ok:
Veronica Salt (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/26/police-national-air-service)

How far is Cardiff from Filton? :E

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4033/4539184675_168082d3f8_z.jpg

Anthony Supplebottom

18th Jul 2013, 21:05

You are so right SilsoeSid.

And just wait until NPAS aggregate their purchasing.

You will see, in the years ahead, a rather large order being placed with AW.

Just remember that I predicted it in 2013! ;)

PANews

18th Jul 2013, 22:28

Dyfed-Powys is the only force to have said 'No'...... the other two in south Wales are just holding out on the detail.

As I said Redhill is not perfect but right on the coast is imperfect for 50% of your missions..... no matter how many people are jumping off the cliff. That is why SAR is usually placed next to the sea..... why transit overland for 90% of your primary mission...? ;)

SilsoeSid

19th Jul 2013, 09:12

Dyfed-Powys is the only force to have said 'No'...... the other two in south Wales are just holding out on the detail.

DP are saying no to the NPAS plan to get rid of them, which is slightly different to saying no to joining!
The detail SW are waiting for is the present contract to run out!

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/simples_zpsbf68a8ff.jpg

SilsoeSid

19th Jul 2013, 09:18

PANews, may I suggest you look at a map and apply a 20 minute circle around Shoreham.

Yes 50% may well be offshore, however the 50% onshore covers the coastline from Portsmouth to Lydd around to Maidstone and Aldershot with a northern point up to the M25. The rest of Kent can be covered within a maximum of a further 10 minutes.

Have you noticed how the South East Region as it is, doesn't really cover the South East of the country!
With my interpretation of the SE of the country being the area; Brighton, North to London and East to the Thames Estuary, it's even stranger to me that the South East Region does't even have an aircraft in it!

As far as my previous, 'How much money does a life save' statement goes, how much money do we waste ... (blah, same old misper policy rant)
Wouldn't it be more effective to base a helicopter in a particular area of the country where the genuine 'cries for help' occur, on a regular basis? Lets not forget that this area also has a lot of accidents where the helicopter is/was vital, as was the case recently.

That line of coast may well be the demarcation of your 'loss of 50% of operational effectiveness' for an ac based there, however if the ac can be used to actually locate & save people that have gone to the country's best known and most used suicide spot to actually do something, then that imho is truly effective use. Lets not forget other crime also occurs round that part of the country, its the biggest gateway into the country and that especially during this time of year, the population increases greatly.

Wagging Finger

19th Jul 2013, 15:34

I would be interested to know, of all the people that we save from themselves (Off cliffs etc) how many go on to do the deed undetected or elsewhere on another day. Does anyone have any figures on this?

PhlyingGuy

19th Jul 2013, 15:38

Anyone know why there are still 902s flying (or not flying!) when they could just get replaced by 429s or EC-135s?

J.A.F.O.

19th Jul 2013, 17:02

Wagging Finger

A lot of research has been done in the US which shows that the number who go on to take their own life is very, very low - certainly single figure percentages.

If I can dig out the research I'll post it but if you are involved in saving someone at that very difficult point in their life there is a very high chance that you have saved them for good.

TheDog

19th Jul 2013, 21:19

"The National Police Air Service is not merely a cost saving exercise.
All together now: "OH YES IT IS!!"

J.A.F.O.

20th Jul 2013, 19:17

Wagging Finger

I don't know the purpose behind your question but one of the studies that I mentioned is attached below and it shows that despite the higher rates of suicide in the group followed (survivors of suicide attempts on the Golden Gate Bridge) in relation to the general population, still about 90% do not die of suicide or by other violent means.

http://seattlefriends.org/files/seiden_study.pdf

Wagging Finger

21st Jul 2013, 12:35

I don't know the purpose behind your question

No agenda, I've always wondered if there were any stats on this. Nice to know its working, they don't 'always come again"

WF

peterprobe

22nd Jul 2013, 09:09

Think you will find that mas don't have a contract with south yorks or Yorkshire air Ambo. So not up to them to maintain the aircraft .

PANews

22nd Jul 2013, 12:37

You are correct, MAS had no contract in place when the troubles struck either South Yorkshire or Yorshire AA.

The current work relates to a post event 'contract' and the delays are part of that experience.

I am trying to clarify whether it is spares or the log book causing the trouble.

spiny tails

23rd Jul 2013, 11:46

Saw this at the Royal International Air Tattoo at the weekend, didn't know the met had come online with NPAS yet, but the badge says different.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll269/spinytails/016_zps74afef19.jpg

Blind Pugh

23rd Jul 2013, 13:22

Spiny tails, that's not one of theirs, think you'll find it normally resides in Exeter!

spiny tails

23rd Jul 2013, 14:36

Oh, my mistake then, thought it was only the met that had 145's

peterprobe

24th Jul 2013, 02:44

Post event? Probably no log book the problem. Bit difficult to get an airframe airworthy when the history of it is unknown....

SilsoeSid

24th Jul 2013, 07:34

National Police Air Service (NPAS) | West Yorkshire Police (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/npas)

https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/sites/default/files/images/logos/npas_logo_260912.jpg

*Logo pending HM The Queen approval

There's an awful lot of use going on of a logo that hasn't yet been approved by HM.
Is it something like an Eastern European number plate, that can only be used for a specified time?
Or is it like a real world Eastern European number plate that gets continually used regardless of the rules :confused:

J.A.F.O.

24th Jul 2013, 09:18

I think you might be a bit behind the times, Sid.

SilsoeSid

24th Jul 2013, 12:03

I think you might be a bit behind the times, Sid.

Having taken the information (*Logo pending HM The Queen approval) from the most credible source available, NPAS's own webpage this very afternoon..... sorry, who's behind the times? :ooh:

Nice of you to criticise my post though, without giving us any verification on what you're saying.
I wouldn't like to think another one of these mistakes was being made;
Police Scotland in logo blunder (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/4987721/Police-Scotland-in-logo-blunder.html)

Unless of course you mean that foreign plates can now
be used in the UK indefinately, however I don't think so!...
Visitors coming to the UK that don’t intend living here can usually use a vehicle displaying foreign (non-UK) number plates for up to six months in a 12 month period. This can be one single or several shorter visits, adding up to a six month period. During this time the vehicle can travel displaying the non-UK plates but only provided the vehicle is still fully registered and tax paid, in the country it came from (the driver’s home country).

For anyone wishing to stay in the UK for longer than a six month period, their vehicle will normally need to be registered and taxed at Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA).

Fly_For_Fun

24th Jul 2013, 13:44

Assuming NPAS website is upto date may be a pitfall. But not getting approval before rebadging aircraft and flight suits seems unlikely. :confused:

SilsoeSid

24th Jul 2013, 14:39

But not getting approval before rebadging aircraft and flight suits seems unlikely. :confused:

But not unpossible :E

SilsoeSid Fails English

Coconutty

25th Jul 2013, 06:21

I like this version :E :

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty/NoPAS.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

peterprobe

26th Jul 2013, 03:02

The current work relates to a post event 'contract' and the delays are part of that experience.

Post event ? not what I hear, still down to the state of the machine and that it had got so bad, plus the no logbook they were asked to sort out. Say what you like about PAS/Bond/or any of the other companies in the HEMS/Police game. At least their engineers and the companies wont kick it out of the shed till its right.

PANews

26th Jul 2013, 06:50

Perhaps you have misconstrued why I say post event contract.....

The airframe was part way through an annual that was started in January when NPAS arrived.... so that's 2+ months down the road that should normally take one month [which is long enough anyway] and then [and only then?] PAS come on the scene to enter into a contract to remedy that previous state of the aircraft with South Yorkshire Police.

I understand it will return to service in a few weeks more. To keep costs down 'repairs' are being undertaken rather than new part substitution. It all takes time but if the 2+ was OK another 3+ is neither here nor there.......

Which presents the question ..... if you can be on the ground for 6 months without the world coming to an end are you really needed?

Yes there is a substitute NPAS aircraft... but that is CMBS and that is a spare for the other Explorers so 'only when it is available' .....

backtothebeat

26th Jul 2013, 17:25

I think you can safely say that ANY force could chop its aircraft and the world wouldn't end..!!

Police work was being successfully carried out way before helicopters got involved.

ShyTorque

26th Jul 2013, 19:24

Police work was being successfully carried out way before helicopters got involved.

Of course it was.

Then it was proven that effectiveness could be improved and many man hours and money could be saved by the use of helicopters. Senior policemen/women made their careers on that basis. Now others are making theirs by "proving" that effectiveness can be improved and many man hours and money can be saved by getting rid of some of them.

Or not..... :hmm:

SilsoeSid

26th Jul 2013, 21:12

I think you can safely say that ANY force could chop its aircraft and the world wouldn't end..!!

Police work was being successfully carried out way before helicopters got involved.

Absolutely correct backtothebeat... :D

... and exactly the same could be said for all police vehicles such as cars & boats & motorbikes. Lets not forget successful policing can also be carried out without the use of fingerprinting, DNA & forensic science, tracking devices, radios and even mobile phones. :ugh:
Dare I mention that the 'modern policing' era you allude to goes back to before the bicycle, perhaps that's also an expense too far :rolleyes:

We could even go back to the days where a peeler was allowed to notice someone being in the wrong area at the wrong time, not looking right shall we say, and being allowed to question that person as to why they were there, profiling if you like, using the coppers nose!
But then again, a top hat, tails, a whistle, and a clip round the ear is all that's needed these days to "Make communities safer by upholding the law fairly and firmly; preventing crime and antisocial behaviour; keeping the peace; protecting and reassuring communities; investigating crime and bringing offenders to justice."
(ACPO-Statement of Mission and Values for the Police Service ) (http://www.acpoprofessionalethics.org/default.aspx?page=somav)

Or do the rest of us live in a different society to you?

backtothebeat

26th Jul 2013, 22:31

So the police can't do police work without helicopters ?

SilsoeSid

26th Jul 2013, 23:40

So the police can't do police work without helicopters ?

Nobody has said that backto.
The two people that have replied to your post have agreed with you that "Police work was being successfully carried out way before helicopters got involved."

jayteeto

27th Jul 2013, 08:40

Cars still ran on carbs before fuel injectors (less efficiently)
Hospitals still treated patients before MRI scanners (less efficiently)
Offices still got paperwork done before computers (less efficiently)
People communicated with letters before e-mails (less efficiently)
Supermarkets still added up your bill before scanners (less efficiently)
You could get a ship to the USA before aeroplanes etc etc etc
Get the drift???????????

backtothebeat

27th Jul 2013, 09:54

Yeah yeah yeah.
I'm not saying that police work isn't thoroughly enhanced by having an a/c available. I've been doing police work from the air for a decade so you don't have to sell it to me. I know all the benefits.
However. This is the police your talking about, and its run by idiots.
They won't pay any attention to those arguments if someone gets it in their head that money can be saved and CV enhanced by chopping an ASU. (Although NPAS has done that job already) don't forget Merseyside chopped their unit way before NPAS.! .
ASU's are no different to horses, dogs, underwater search, traffic, firearms etc etc in THEIR eyes.
The idiots running the show dont listen to logic..!!

PANews

27th Jul 2013, 10:13

Unfortunately the only answer to your problem [the idiots] is to lengthen the time they have to serve on the streets before any promotion.

At the present, even without direct entry from all sorts of police orientated jobs like selling ice cream later in life, the ACPO material can get off the streets after 2 years [and 6 months of that might be training] whereas if the minimum figure was instead 5 years they might have actually learned something about the survival of the fittest.

The downside of that is that the born and bred idiots would be there [carrying your coat] into battle for that much longer!!!! :uhoh:

It isn't going to change any day soon..... its been like this for 200 years...!

backtothebeat

27th Jul 2013, 12:15

haha. Indeed PA News. Spoken as only someone who has been at the "sharp end" could..!

Coconutty

29th Jul 2013, 06:54

They won't pay any attention to those arguments if someone gets it in their head that money can be saved and CV enhanced by chopping an ASU.I fear that supposition is somewhat false in the context of NPAS,
and that the original aims to provide " .... a more efficient service at a reduced cost....."
no longer apply, because neither aim will be met !

It think it will be VERY interesting to find out, once everyone has joined NPAS,
by way of Freedom of Interest Requests, just how much each force is paying for NPAS,
and for how many hours cover, and compare this with what was being paid and the hours flown pre-NPAS :rolleyes: :eek:

Apart from the financial aspects, and despite asking, there don't seem to be many,
if any examples of a more efficient service under NPAS either ( yet ? ) :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

Filtre de fadaises

31st Jul 2013, 08:27

And it's not just cutting a unit or two. I understand that there are currently three units, all with perfectly serviceable aircraft, but all grounded because the "i"s running the show have been unable to close the contract with the new maintenance provider after the callous culling of a cost-efficient, loyal and effective operation (ECPM/NAPS Eng.). I presume that leaves the sole residual provider calling the shots somewhat earlier than everyone suspected would happen anyway, building further the £4ish million overspend on this £15m cost-saving enterprise.

Not quite sure how this squares with the organisations aims, except that crews are being paid to sit around, next to a fine & ready steed, willing to go, but un-supported by management competence, planning, or any form of decent treatment towards the individuals affected. :=
Sadly, there's a remarkable resemblance to actions of the Thugees of India, c1800, in all that both the maintenance and operational organisations are doing to UK Police Aviation at the moment; although I haven't heard their God called Kali yet? (use Google if not familiar)

ARIS

5th Aug 2013, 23:08

Coconutty
Here's a couple of examples for you:

Spare aircraft available during own aircraft's maintenance downtime
24/7 cover in areas previously only 20/7
Availability of additional aircraft when several jobs occur in close proximity
Seamless transfer between neighbouring aircraft, when fuel critical on extended jobs.
...to name but a few...;)

Coconutty

6th Aug 2013, 06:04

ARIS,

Took a while but thanks for that - I KNEW there would be someone, somewhere, that had some Good News for a change :rolleyes:

Spare aircraft available during own aircraft's maintenance downtimeConceded that IF this happens it's a Good thing :ok:

24/7 cover in areas previously only 20/7I'm still sceptical on this one - As far as I know there are no NEW 24 Hr Units,
so it's the exisiting ones that will be providing the cover further afield.
What happens then, in what was previously their own area,
where they had identified a need for 24 Hr cover, and the aircraft they previously had available is now deployed elsewhere ? -
Surely they now receive a poorer, or less efficient service during those times ?

Availability of additional aircraft when several jobs occur in close proximityThat was already happening in some Regions when there was a need.

Seamless transfer between neighbouring aircraft, when fuel critical on extended jobs.That was also already happening in some Regions when there was a need.

Any more examples to demonstrate an improved service under NPAS,
or better still any examples of cost savings achieved yet ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

jayteeto

6th Aug 2013, 08:02

In the past, some regions were very proactive with air support, whilst others were less so. It was an expensive business and some chiefs were not prepared to pay. Its a generalisation by me, but I guess that the new 'happy bears' are the ones who didnt see much air support and the 'grumpy bears' are the ones who did.
We used to seamlessly call on neighbouring units during incidents when fuel was tight, we covered other areas when aircraft were offline as well (big area for one helicopter though). This now means that with NPAS, for some people, there is little difference (or reduction in service) for such large changes. On the other hand, in some areas they now have a helicopter on call when in the past they didn't.
Most of the centralisation problems were predicted years ago and have come so so real. There was never anything that you could have done to stop this happening as long as someone was shouting "I will save you all money for a better service". Local commissioners can shout all they want, its just noise and they will get a sore throat eventually. The best thing for all to do is bite the bullet and try your best to make things work as well as possible. If you can't take any more.............. don't............. leave and find a job/post that interests you. I made the move away and am very happy with my new job.

SilsoeSid

10th Aug 2013, 12:35

Police Helicopter Surveys Landing Sites | Scilly Today (http://www.scillytoday.com/2013/08/09/police-helicopter-surveys-landing-sites/)

A police helicopter was in the air over Scilly yesterday afternoon.

But the EC145 Eurocopter wasn’t here for an emergency. It was a planned visit to allow new pilots to familiarise themselves with the islands.

Sergeant Colin Taylor says the management of police helicopters in England and Wales changed last October.

Instead of being linked to particular forces, they now come under a single organisation, the National Police Air Service, formed to coordinate the activities of all Police aircraft.

It’s the first time they have organised a flight over here since moving to the new arrangements

It was a chance for them to assess landing sites on all the islands.

Colin says they also took photos from key points around the coastline, which could help in planning future search and rescue operations.

The work only took a few hours, although a technical problem with the chopper door meant it had to stay at St Mary’s airport overnight, while an engineer was brought from the mainland.

There's a shame eh!

Hughes500

10th Aug 2013, 17:40

Off to The Sicllies

Hm well there's another waste of tax payer's money. If they have to survey the islands for sites doesn't say much for piloting ability does it ?

SilsoeSid

10th Aug 2013, 23:47

I wonder if, as they will be the only 24 hr unit South of the 53rd parallel (well The Met wouldn't be deploying so far SW) whether the lads and lasses from West Mids be getting a familiarisation of the Scilly Isles?
Their door handles are sometimes a bit stiff and the runners a tad graunchy, so I hear, and the qualities of the Ales of Scilly will need to be verified by an independent, select group of Midland tasters.

Anyway, I hear some ASBO's have to be served down there :ok:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_-tY7QDjUWM/TxFi-jJAXzI/AAAAAAAAAOs/iKlzDvu-LtU/s320/Asbo%2BclipZ.jpg

alesofscilly.co.uk (http://www.alesofscilly.co.uk)

MightyGem

11th Aug 2013, 17:52

Hm well there's another waste of tax payer's money. If they have to survey the islands for sites doesn't say much for piloting ability does it ? Making Ad Hoc landings is not a problem. However, if a landing site is to be included in the Unit's Landing Site Directory, then it has to be surveyed to ensure that it's dimensions and surrounding obstacles are within the Perf 1 criteria. And, of course, if you're a new guy, it helps to have seen what could be a tight HLS before having to use it in anger.

[email protected]

11th Aug 2013, 18:29

Hughes500

11th Aug 2013, 19:51

Mighty

Come on ! Any commercial operator has to survey a site from Google earth for a pax pick up so what's wrong with Police pilots ? How many landing sites are in The Police directory for the whole of the SW ? Do I have to fund every pilot going round to see each one ? ( from D & C base to Scilly is about an hour each way say another 2 hours arsing about, so that's 4 hours of 400 to 600 hours a year or 1% of the budget( hope line and base check was done on the way down ) Thought the machine was supposedly fighting crime why is it having to land every where ?

SilsoeSid

11th Aug 2013, 23:04

https://mobile.twitter.com/NPAS_Exeter/tweets
Busy day & evening for the crews of Oscar 99, with rapid transport of officers to Scilly Isles, lost person searches in Hayle and Torquay.
1:06am - 19 Jun 13
This job? Major Incident On St Mary?s Quay | Scilly Today (http://www.scillytoday.com/2013/06/18/breaking-news-major-incident-on-st-marys-quay/)
Surveyed, add hoc or airfield?
Maybe just a quick look on google.... I hope the height of the stumps was surveyed before t/o :E

MGMaking Ad Hoc landings is not a problem. However, if a landing site is to be included in the Unit's Landing Site Directory, then it has to be surveyed ...

Have to agree with H500.
Surely the cost saving point here is not to have too many landing sites (whose surveys will need constant updating) in the directory in the first place. Besides, are there many 'confined areas' on the Scillies that aren't next to a large open area? I've not been there for a good 20 years+, but I remember them as being fairly bleak, which is backed up in modern times by google maps.

SilsoeSid

11th Aug 2013, 23:18

£20m of cocaine found on yacht | This is Cornwall (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/pound-20m-cocaine-yacht/story-19360232-detail/story.html#axzz2bhm51dBn)

Cocaine with a street value of £20 million has been found aboard a yacht which was raided on the Isles of Scilly.
The skipper of the Windrose plunged to his death on St Mary's during the intelligence-led operation by Border Force officers on Monday evening.
The Dutch man, who has so far not been named, suffered serious head injuries when he leapt from the mast onto the quayside in what's thought to have been a bid to escape.

Hughes500

12th Aug 2013, 07:45

SS

I will bow to your superior knowledge here but air ambulance pilots don't float around looking at landing sites, they don't know where they are going from job to job ? Does that mean there is a higher skill level for an AA pilot than a plod one ?:confused:

jayteeto

12th Aug 2013, 07:52

AA pilots have dispensations to go into adhoc HLS. Routine sites have to be presurveyed and we cannot go in unless a valid survey is done. Adhoc is hems only, life or death

misterbonkers

12th Aug 2013, 08:06

Chaps chaps chaps. Calm down calm down.

A very reliable source tells me that if you read the NPAS Police Ops Manual then it actual says that to use a site at night then the site must be surveyed and kept in the site landing directory (each site survey valid for 12 months). Otherwise days landings can be made adhoc or by use of estimation such as O/S mapping or Google Earth but obviously pilots must have a good look themselves at the site before landing.

Hope that puts an end to the current moaning!

SilsoeSid

12th Aug 2013, 09:29

H500;
I will bow to your superior knowledge here but air ambulance pilots don't float around looking at landing sites, they don't know where they are going from job to job ? Does that mean there is a higher skill level for an AA pilot than a plod one ?

Mmm, don't quite know why you're getting a bit shirty, I was agreeing with your comment about the expense.

As for going from job to job, I think you'll find the only job a police pilot knows where he is going and can do some 'paperwork planning' is the initial one that they have launched for, the same can also be said for the AA pilot. However, once in the air anything is on and you can literally end up anywhere, doing anything, at anytime. I'd say the skill levels for Pol/AA are directly comparable as far as the handling and ac operation are concerned, it's simply the role that differs.

By the way, I think you will find that air ambulance pilots do float around looking at landing sites, much the same as any other safe pilot and crew would, in any part of our industry.

jayteeto

12th Aug 2013, 11:11

PS. Survey by google earth???? Some of those pictures are years old. My estate shows as open fields.......

SilsoeSid

12th Aug 2013, 15:59

No, not survey by google, but a quick butchers to at least have an idea of what to expect before leaving the office. Besides, who's to say the 'directory survey' is still good 11 months down the line? I would have thought that both plod & ambo units will look at a job on google maps or similar anyway, if for no other reason than to get an idea of the 'lie of the land' etc.
After all, prior planning and all that :ok:

I'm of the opinion that this line of the thread should be about the expense of these surveys in an area 120 miles from base, against their usage, not the abilities of different pilots in different roles.

Out of interest, anyone know where the officers in the latest case were dropped off? ;)

Hughes500

12th Aug 2013, 16:52

SS

Not getting ****ty but I warned various people on this thread that if they kept perceiving to waste tax payers money then someone would come along with a large hatchet........... perception is everything
Some people don't seem to want to live in the " real " world or they seem not to want to learn. When you run these things personally in a commercial world and one has to write the cheques out for them you look at things differently. That is not to say safety doesn't come first or course it does but when as a tax payer I see the machine has overnighted on a landing site survey in the Scilly's in mid summer it does wrankle just a bit !!!!! I can see the auditor looking and saying there is a waste, we will cut down the hours and or the budget which is not helpful to any of us, I want to see the heli fighting crime and doing what is supposed to do.
I was being very tongue in cheek with police pilots :p

SilsoeSid

12th Aug 2013, 17:32

H, it's easier to pronounce your 'r's without your tongue in your cheek :ok:

Ye Olde Pilot

12th Aug 2013, 21:59

Get the Aussie and NZ pilots over here to show how it really can be done without the whining once the engines have stopped:=

SilsoeSid

12th Aug 2013, 23:20

Get the Aussie and NZ pilots over here to show how it really can be done without the whining once the engines have stopped :=

As most of the jobs over here are for mispers, perhaps it would be better if you sent over Skippy :ok:

A seven-year-old boy who spent a winter's night lost in chilly conditions in the Australian bush says a friendly kangaroo is the reason he survived.
South Australian police said Simon Kruger went missing in the Deep Creek Conservation Park, south of Adelaide, after wandering away from a family picnic shortly after 1.15pm Saturday.
A search party of about 40, including two rescue helicopters, was mobilized to locate Simon, who was wearing just a fleece top and track pants and was not equipped for a night in the elements.
Skippy, the guardian angel? Australian boy says kangaroo saved him. (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/08/world/asia/kangaroo-saves-lost-boy)

http://www.classicaustraliantv.com/Skippy/SK6.jpg

John Eacott

12th Aug 2013, 23:51

Yes, they couldn't possibly have just talked to the 771 guys at Culdrose who know the islands like the back of their hands:ugh:

And what will the police bring to search and rescue operations on Scilly that isn't already covered by the MCA and SAR???

Maybe Police operations, crab@? Who said anything about SAR :hmm:

Off to The Sicllies

Hm well there's another waste of tax payer's money. If they have to survey the islands for sites doesn't say much for piloting ability does it ?

I'm quite intrigued that there is such a degree of criticism here of what seems to me to be professional and competent expansion of knowledge of an operation's area. Should there be a call in bad weather and the driver has no experience of the local features and stuffs up, would you then be raising the same level of criticism that 'he should have known the area, after all it's in his patch'?

[email protected]

13th Aug 2013, 08:37

Maybe Police operations, crab@? Who said anything about SARSid in post 1050 where he was quoting the police Sgt
Colin says they also took photos from key points around the coastline, which could help in planning future search and rescue operations.

Thomas coupling

13th Aug 2013, 09:24

Oooops!...

Adroight

13th Aug 2013, 09:44

I'm quite intrigued that there is such a degree of criticism here of what seems to me to be professional and competent expansion of knowledge of an operation's area.

There is a very vocal minority of UK private pilots on Pprune who constantly demonstrate their lack of knowledge and professionalism John. Most of us simply ignore them.

PANews

13th Aug 2013, 09:57

Even before the advent of Google Earth police control rooms were collecting images of salient points on their manor and dating them so the questions could be asked as to whether 'things' had changed. This is 25 years ago and I saw specific examples kept by the Met and D&C.

And the same applies to the rest of UK air support - dated images were kept so you had a point of reference readily to hand. If they had built an estate meanwhile it may well be pretty obvious!

OK so today they may not be in a shabby and bent loose leaf binder, more likely on the hard drive and used in conjunction with Google, but they are a starting point for planning an approach for an operation whether you are planning a nap of the earth covert walk-in or an aircraft on an approach to a new site.

John Eacott

13th Aug 2013, 10:00

crab@,

I guess I read that comment as an incidental aside to the true task of the recce, more of a sop to the press to prevent the very attitude that we are seeing here of deriding the trip rather than supporting a professional approach by the crews. Nonetheless, I see the tenuous association that prompted your comment about 771NAS: sorry.

I'm sure that many in the UK are aware that other nations do Polair, SAR and Ambo quite differently and yet they seem to manage quite well and (dare I mention) quite professionally without much of the territory marking that seems to prevail within discussions on RH. Our VicPol do Polair, SAR and Ambo; other State Polair do both SAR and Polair. Ambo contracts around the nation are done by both State and by contract operators, day and night, plus they all are winch equipped and SAR capable.

The sooner that the UK CAA drag themselves into the latter half of the 20th Century and allow Police ops to catch up with the rest of the world, the better.

My 6c worth :ok:

SilsoeSid

13th Aug 2013, 10:58

Should there be a call in bad weather and the driver has no experience of the local features and stuffs up, would you then be raising the same level of criticism that 'he should have known the area, after all it's in his patch'?

Bad weather, 40 min overland transit into a 20 minute oversea transit for a job in an unfamiliar area, pretty restrictive opening hours for EGHE (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-0149F124A48640C62D90840AC5760331/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGHE_en_2013-01-10.pdf) for fuel etc ... I think there will be a few more questions asked and criticisms raised than why hadn't the driver been more familiar with local features in the area.

If this is justified because it is 'on their patch', then perhaps all NPAS units will get their chance of visiting the various Islands. I believe Tresco is very nice most times of the year and I bet there'll be a few after bagging the IoM during TT week and IoW during Cowes :ok:

In the meantime, lets look forward to reading the report :cool:

Thomas coupling

13th Aug 2013, 13:52

heh heh - this was a jolly by DandC whichever way you paint it. I did the same when I was 'checking out' my patch and their numerous "outer islands". Not necessary - says the risk matrix.
How often is there a job on "the Vanunu Islands" Vs what are the chances when we start up tomorrow due to us being a 'downbird' will the beastie start properly with all systems go, Vs being offline to the rest of the busy sectors.
Mmmmm I can smell that sea air now................:E

Hughes500

13th Aug 2013, 16:24

Adroight

Yup I am very private pilot :ugh:

Hughes500

13th Aug 2013, 16:25

TC

Are you coming round to my way of thinking ? First time you have agreed with me :ok:

aeromys

14th Aug 2013, 12:25

Well all three of those in the back are local Police, were there no TFO's on board? Who's opening the door?
Isles of Scilly Policing Team (http://neighbourhoodpolicing.devon-cornwall.police.uk/BCU-1558/Sector-1855/NB-1603/Pages/default.aspx)

Edit - ooops, I see now that regular crew were in the back also.
Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=579202642118965&set=a.180538145318752.35843.167175043321729&type=1&theater)

SilsoeSid

14th Aug 2013, 19:47

Is a PCSO a 'CAA Agreed Passenger'?

misterbonkers

14th Aug 2013, 20:12

I'm sure you'll find out in October...

Hughes500

14th Aug 2013, 20:49

Looks like she has a firm grip on that truncheon ;)

SilsoeSid

14th Aug 2013, 20:52

Mr.B, why not enlighten us all? Unlike yourself, not everyone has/will have access to the info.

If you're prepared to say ...
A very reliable source tells me that if you read the NPAS Police Ops Manual then it actual says that to use a site at night then the site must be surveyed and kept in the site landing directory (each site survey valid for 12 months).

... surely through your reliable source, you can tell us what the NPAS Police Ops Manual says about PCSO's and how it differs from CAP 612 ;)

MightyGem

14th Aug 2013, 21:19

Is a PCSO a 'CAA Agreed Passenger'?
Both CAP 612 and the NPAS Ops Manual state that an agreed pax maybe; "an employee of a police authority in the course of his duty", so I guerss that they are.

SilsoeSid

15th Aug 2013, 08:51

Scilly Today (http://www.scillytoday.com/2013/08/14/investigation-into-police-helicopter-fault-over-scilly/)
.... were on board the EC145 Eurocopter at the time, which was making a reconnaissance visit to the islands to survey landing sites.

Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=579202642118965&set=a.180538145318752.35843.167175043321729&type=1&theater)
We set off to to recce future landing spots on the off islands. Somewhere over Tresco,

Duties of a PCSO during landing site surveys would be what?

SilsoeSid

15th Aug 2013, 10:44

Cabby, just a couple of things,

a. The PCSO lives there
b. PCSO's aren't normally authorised to hold truncheons

Having said that, ref b. there was a night out in the equation :ok:

misterbonkers

15th Aug 2013, 20:19

Silsoe; afraid you come across as so far up your backside that even a nightsun couldn't enlighten you!

MightGem appears to have kindly clarified the situation.

And just in case you are still hiding in that dark hole;

What is a Police Community Support Officer? (http://www.policecommunitysupportofficer.com/welcome.html)

SilsoeSid

15th Aug 2013, 22:38

Thank you Mr.B, however you still haven't answered the question of what the role of the PCSO on this flight was. I have read your link telling us what a PCSO is, but that answers nothing and confirms that they are employees of a police force and would therefore need to be on the aircraft 'in the course of their duty', in order to be CAA agreed. I'm only asking what that might be.

As you seem to be on the other side of the fence, why do we need to have a specific chapter on what defines a CAA Agreed Passenger anyway? What real difference does it make?

Please enlighten me :sad:

Perhaps you could also clear up a concern from one of the locals...

JOHN BANFIELD
August 14, 2013 at 12:11 pm
All of our illustrious Police Force on the same aircraft? They should be like the Royal Family used to be, where the Queen and her Heir would take separate flights in case of accidents.

misterbonkers

16th Aug 2013, 15:14

Silsoe - no fence where I'm standing.

Perhaps your queries are best pointed at your friendly Line Training Captain and if it's safety related your FSO? Hopefully no-one will think you're going mad.

Cabby - sitting watching a video will take a comparable amount of time - if the aircraft is going anyway surely there are benefits to being onboard? Better all round view, introduction to air ops, names, faces, places, understanding?

I would think it highly unlikely the aircraft flew all the way to the Scilly Isles just to take a PCSO on a 'jolly'! Maybe the PCSO was there to provide local knowledge?

SilsoeSid

16th Aug 2013, 17:00

Mr.B, plenty of insults, but no answers. :=
By that we can only take it that you do not know. As you are taking a stance on something you are lost on, let me enlighten you.

The sentence (in 612) is quite clear,

CAA-Agreed Passenger
Operations to the full extent of PAOC flexibility are restricted to those occasions wherein any passenger has been drawn from one of the following categories (referred to in the ANO as 'permitted passengers'). Such passengers shall be known as 'CAA-agreed passengers':
a) Police Officer;
b) employee of a police authority in the course of his duty;
c) medical attendant;
d) holder of a current pilot's licence who intends to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft flying under and in accordance with the terms of a PAOC and who is being carried for the purpose of training and familiarisation;
e) CAA Flight Operations Inspector (FOI);
f) HomeOfficePoliceAviationAdviser;
g) employee of a fire and rescue authority under the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 in the course of his duty;
h) officer of revenue and customs on a joint Police/Customs operation;
i) employee of the Ministry of Defence in the course of his duty; or
j) such other person being carried for purposes connected with police operations as may be permitted in writing by the CAA.

There's no problem taking the PCSO for the trip you describe, (which in my opinion is not in the course of their duties), or any member of the general public as it happens, as long as management are happy. I asked you to enlighten us as to what restrictions that would impose, So please do so without resorting to the insults.

As far as the fence reference is concerned, I do wish you would read the relevant post and not just see a word and assume the rest of the sentence :ugh:

SilsoeSid

16th Aug 2013, 20:02

Meanwhile, on a lighter note, yet also a reminder for those pre-planned trips;

We set down on Tresco for a short while before zipping back to St Mary's where the Chopper has been put to bed for the night to await a chap with a spanner in the morning. If you see two very fasionably dressed men about town tonight they are the pilot and aircrew wearing my clothes.

In light of recent events, overnight bags will soon be issued to units

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/2d7a1bd11bc297297c056b6da7dc935b_zps6110c9bd.jpg

:ok:

Hughes500

16th Aug 2013, 20:06

SS

What's your address ? I have just packed my Kevlar infantry issue helmet and FedEx are awaiting to ship it up to you !!!

SilsoeSid

16th Aug 2013, 20:31

H500, normally found digging a hole not too far from here (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?expflags=enable_star_based_justifications:true&ie=UTF8&cid=8773740443503520702&q=Laughter+Tor+(Lough+Tor)&iwloc=A&gl=GB&hl=en_uk) :suspect:

The postie knows where to leave the package :ok:

Fly_For_Fun

16th Aug 2013, 21:05

Is anyone still in the employ of a police authority? I thought it was the Police and Crime Commissioner that ran the show now.

SilsoeSid

16th Aug 2013, 21:30

H500
Is anyone still in the employ of a police authority? I thought it was the Police and Crime Commissioner that ran the show now.

XVLBzcetS7I

Coconutty

17th Aug 2013, 06:32

... employee of a police authority in the course of his duty
That rules out female PCSO's completely then :E

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

SilsoeSid

17th Aug 2013, 08:44

3 Gender
3.1 References to the masculine gender used for convenience in this document apply equally to the feminine gender, where appropriate.

:rolleyes:

Hughes500

17th Aug 2013, 12:39

SS
I am impressed as I was on my mountain bike cycling past laughter tor yesterday !!! :)

misterbonkers

17th Aug 2013, 13:59

SS - 'enlighten up'

The links to the documents were posted by others so why enlighten you by cutting and pasting? CAP612 is easily read on the CAA website.

Perhaps the PCSO was bringing local knowledge to the reconnaissance flight? Would that be in the course of their duty?

Please share when you have flown Police Employees (other than Police Officers) and under what circumstances?

Fence suggest boundaries. I thought NPAS reduced the fences? Not long now until the West Midlands fence falls eh?

Cabby - I never realised extra passengers reduced fuel endurance - thanks for that. I now understand why that Bell 47 I fly really doesn't get very far with 15 on board.

Perhaps an EC145 driver can enlighten us as to what effect that 4th passenger will actually have on the fuel endurance of a Police Role equipped EC145?!? Lets assume they weigh 200lbs eh? Afterall there is plenty of assuming going on here!

As for Jolly - heaven forbid people actually enjoying their work eh? Crumbs! Stop all the smiles - lets make it illegal to smile. Let's also ban laughter and Lough-Tor - but not before I fly there please - I'd like to make at least one more enjoyable flight!

SilsoeSid

17th Aug 2013, 14:15

Mr.B, you seem to have lost the plot :hmm:

No one has posted the piece I was referring to from the 612, the part just before 'a)', that why I posted it :rolleyes:

So the PCSO was there to give local knowledge! That contradicts your earlier post where you suggested they were receiving local knowledge :confused:

Plenty of times, but not to the full extent of the PAOC flexibility :p

The fence reference is nothing more than to indicate that you were looking at this from one point of view, I, another. (As in, you're on one side of a fence and I'm on the other) :ugh:

West Mids, I believe, have flown beyond fences for some time now as has the rest of the 'Central Region Air Support Units". Little change come October :ok:

SilsoeSid

17th Aug 2013, 14:19

Mr.B, further plot loss;

Perhaps an EC145 driver can enlighten us as to what effect that 4th passenger will actually have on the fuel endurance of a Police Role equipped EC145?!? Lets assume they weigh 200lbs eh? Afterall there is plenty of assuming going on here!

Why don't you google 145 fuel burn rate and apply it to 200lbs :ugh:

As for Jolly - heaven forbid people actually enjoying their work eh?

If they are doing 'their work', they wouldn't be on a jolly :ugh:

misterbonkers

17th Aug 2013, 15:07

SS - :ugh:

Fuel only becomes an issue IF that 4th passenger takes the weight over that required for take-off which is going to be either MAUW or a possibly a lesser value if that particular airframe so dictates in order to achieve required performance for the flight to safely occur.

As I do not fly the EC145 nor can find any role equipped APS figures I am happy to ask the question on here: Unlike you who seems to ask questions on things you ALREADY clearly know!

As this is an EC145 perhaps a 4th passenger can be happily flown WITHOUT affecting endurance which means the PCSO being on board the aircraft had no NEGATIVE affect? Adding 1 passenger doesn't always reduce the fuel you can carry.

Knowledge is a two way thing. It is actually possible to be in a situation where by your offering your knowledge and gaining some at the same time...

If there is little change to come to you in October then you clearly have nothing to worry about then! Perhaps you might even consider being more supportive of future colleagues instead of looking for reasons to slate them?

md 600 driver

17th Aug 2013, 15:28

Totally agree mr b

Take a chill pill SS

whats wrong with bringing a bit of fun to ones work , so what if it was a bit of a jolly . Have you never taken anyone for a ride before ?

Anyway at least she knows what the helicopter is doing up there and how it works in conjunction with ground forces and she will get a birds eye view of her patch all of that is a bonus

Sounds like your more upset with your feelings of possible impending doom later this year ,What will happen will happen,i dont think you will have any choice Live with it

SilsoeSid

17th Aug 2013, 16:50

Mr.B,

Adding 1 passenger doesn't always reduce the fuel you can carry.

Now, I'm not to sure whether it's these onions I'm chopping or what you just said that's making me cry, but once I recover I'll get back to the rest of your post :)

jayteeto

17th Aug 2013, 17:49

We used to reduce fuel for an extra pax on the 135. What's the point of launching with spare payload, getting a task and wishing you had fuel. If I had a 145 nothing would change, a pax would be reducing flying endurance every time. If you are launching with payload available, have a word with yourself!

SilsoeSid

17th Aug 2013, 17:53

Aaaah, that's better :)

Right then, who started this fuel issue thing and why?
I'm no 145 driver either, however what I would do is Click here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Ec145+fuel+burn+rate)

Look at the PDF file second on the list and go to page 52 and the 'Performance on 2 Engines' chart. Now, as I understand, consumption is based on ac weight (or whichever other term you may wish to use for the ac loaded up) and not any particular role fit. So take your pax weight, look at the chart and hey presto you can see how much flying time your 200lb person takes up. (You wil notice that additional weight does in fact affect the flight time, endurance, but in this case it would be negligible)

I think what you were trying to say was that if the ac fuel load was at a level at which the addition of a pax didn't take it over the MAUW, then there is no problem with the fuel loading. Well done on stating the obvious :rolleyes:

But as this part of the total thread isn't about fuel, whatever....

As far as October is concerned, I have no probs at all. In fact I'm looking forward to it as I always have done. For some if us it is really going to widen our horizons. You forget that this is a long time coming and some of us have waited a long time for it to finally happen. It makes total sense if you knew what was happening here before.

You seem to have missed the point (again) that there is nothing wrong with taking the PCSO up, as previously mentioned and the only slating anyone is getting here is the old overnight kit basic schoolboy error :ok:

SilsoeSid

17th Aug 2013, 19:16

Md600dvr
Totally agree mr b

Take a chill pill SS

Please read the relevant parts of the thread, from about post 1050 would be good. You appear to have missed all the fun and came in with both feet at the end of the discussion :rolleyes: You missed Skippy, H500's confusion between shirty and ****ty, the overnight bag and the relevance of a few things including Laughter Tor.

so what if it was a bit of a jolly .
Exactly, so what ... your point being?

Anyway at least she knows what the helicopter is doing up there and how it works in conjunction with ground forces and she will get a birds eye view of her patch all of that is a bonus
Mmm, just a couple of things on that one, the helicopter can do more things than LS surveys and all the available ground forces were in the air :p

You seem to have backed up what was said earlier by Cabby, that the famil could have been done by video brief :ugh:
You see, this is what happens when you don't read the thread and just jump on in :=

Windsor Loft

18th Aug 2013, 14:45

If you are launching with payload available, have a word with yourself!

Not sure I'd agree here!

SilsoeSid

18th Aug 2013, 16:19

Jayteeto
If you are launching with payload available, have a word with yourself!

Windsor Loft
Not sure I'd agree here!

Bearing in mind the particular part of the industry this thread is associated with, I'd love to hear your reasoning behind that one Windsor.

Especially come October, I for one will be lifting with as much fuel as possible in order to ensure full effectiveness under the NPAS mantra...
NPAS will provide a national, borderless service making use of the nearest aircraft meaning that the police service's response will, in many cases, be enhanced over current provision.
... as this is the way ahead.

Clearly you have never had one of those, 'where's my nearest fuel' moments or a "that extra 50kgs would have been useful just now" moment, or even a 'perhaps we shouldn't have had that extra 5 minutes on task' moment.
Let me assure you, without any sandbags or swinging lamps, it's a 'special' feeling.

As they say, the only time you really have too much fuel, is when you're on fire :ok:

misterbonkers

18th Aug 2013, 19:05

Holy ****e batman!

1800kg empty mass
400kg of role equipment (generous!)
270kg for 3 crew
90kg for the disputed pax
694kg Full Fuel

= 3254kg
MAUW = 3585kg so one would like to think in the UK on an island near sea level there's a good enough margin for a Class 1 departure at 3254kg.

So then we look at the fuel consumption chart for operation and see that a higher weights at 90kg passenger makes sweet FA difference in the grand scheme of things - a few kilograms at best! And some pilots can waste that much fuel quite easily or even save that much fuel quite easily.

Cabby - The problem here is that SS posts rubbish for the sake of stirring rubbish. It's quite clear once you wipe away the rubbish.

md 600 driver

18th Aug 2013, 19:24

Here's hoping you don't ever get moved to scilly
She doesn't look 90 kilos to me !!! How unkind of you LOL

Hughes500

18th Aug 2013, 19:37

Mr b

You really have missed the point, the police have been caught with their trousers down wasting tax payers money . mind you as the police are now complaining about having to do fitness checks perhaps they need the heli to pass the test !:mad:

SilsoeSid

18th Aug 2013, 21:35

Mr.B;Cabby - The problem here is that SS posts rubbish for the sake of stirring rubbish. It's quite clear once you wipe away the rubbish.

Here's my rubbish as you put it, in a practical sense.
(Windsor, this may also be of interest to you)

Let's say I have worked out that I can carry 490kg of fuel to get up to my MAUW of 2910kg. If I lift with 400kg, all well and good, right up until the point at which just as the misper/ rear garden / large area search is coming to an end, the call comes for a pursuit on the M40/42 and the report on the vehicle originates from Manchester. This is when 'the feeling' starts.

After the past hours flying I'm now down to about 200kg total, around 140kg (40 mins) day / 110 kg (32 min) night, 'available' for tasking + rtb/refuel.

20 minutes later, just north of Stafford, I have 20 mins of fuel left day, 10 mins night (bingo). At night I can go no further north for fuel, but I can always pop into Stafford. During the day, I have reached a point of no return and can continue the pursuit as long as the speed is kept up and after handover to NPASNW, I can zap straight into Manchester for fuel in order to get back home.

Now then Mr. B, how much better would it have been if I had that extra 90 kg (25 min) of fuel on board?

at 90kg passenger makes sweet FA difference in the grand scheme of things
I beg to differ!

md 600 driver

18th Aug 2013, 21:54

SS
MR BONKERS seems to have a better or higher payload helicopter than you or have you some other answer i know you will have

SilsoeSid

18th Aug 2013, 23:28

Thanks for your concern Cabby, however I've never hidden behind the username. As I've always said, hiding behind a username tends, to a degree, to hide credibility. 'Fishing in a clever way' indeed, they haven't used google or even asked :rolleyes: It's quite fun to watch someone trying to out you, when you've been out since you joined the forum. Blimey, I've even been credited with a rotorheads calendar just to make it clear enough. I guess '10 minutes from Stafford' is a bit of an easy giveaway though, however I guess those 'fuel shortage sweats' do give you egBO? ;)

Md600, I think MrB is using the 145 as an example and figures from the link I provided. Not being 145'd, I don't know how accurate they are.

Mr.B, I'm afraid I don't understand why you are hung up about the PCSO/fuel issue, how is it relevant to this discussion? Fuel wasn't here until you went off on one about it :confused:

aeromys

19th Aug 2013, 07:29

The luxury of being able to take 3 up for a famil ! :)
Do D&C still run with a single TFO, or are they now 2 TFO under NPAS?

misterbonkers

19th Aug 2013, 14:07

Silsoe, you sir, seem to have lost the plot.

Firstly we are referring to the D&C EC145 NOT your EC135!

It looks like in the case of the EC145 an extra passenger has very little (just a few Kgs) effect on fuel consumption & endurance. So an extra tasking may not be affected due to a lack of fuel as you can take off with full fuel.

Secondly if were going to drag your EC135 into it then do you normally sit your EC135 outside with full fuel or 400kg?

If you want more fuel to start with then surely you turn the passenger down! If there was a requirement to have the passenger in the first place then to be quite honest it's tough cheese on the pursuit but I guess you could discuss and generate options with your fellow crew and perhaps a plan could be formed for another NPAS unit to get airborne and assist? Hawarden? Manchester?

Otherwise I guess sometimes the bad guys risk getting away! But then ground officers can always make enquiries afterwards!

Is there an SOP of not having an aircraft sat with full fuel in case a passenger needs to be flown? I've seen pictures of dog handlers flying before now.

H500 - it might seem bizarrely professional but the Police may well have had there reasons to be on the Scilly Islands which could include a requirement to conduct up to date landing site surveys for night landings on a NEW part of their patch? And of course whilst you're there and you have a spare seat why not utilise it?

SilsoeSid

19th Aug 2013, 16:18

Firstly we are referring to the D&C EC145 NOT your EC135!

As I don't fly a 145, I can only give an example based on something I do have experience on, hence the 135. If I flew the 145, my scenario would have had 145 figures and might have involved a trip down the A38. Regardless of type, 90kgs of fuel is 90 kgs of fuel. :rolleyes:

Secondly if were going to drag your EC135 into it then do you normally sit your EC135 outside with full fuel or 400kg?
It would sit outside with the appropriate amount of fuel :rolleyes:

If you want more fuel to start with then surely you turn the passenger down?
Even if we had a pax with us and a job came in where we were going to be tight on fuel, Welsh border request or suchlike, then I would top up with the extra fuel and ditch the pax :rolleyes:

... but I guess you could discuss and generate options with your fellow crew and perhaps a plan could be formed for another NPAS unit to get airborne and assist? Hawarden? Manchester?
Did you read my post? I only ask as you seem to have missed the bit about handing over to NPASNW :rolleyes:

Is there an SOP of not having an aircraft sat with full fuel in case a passenger needs to be flown? I've seen pictures of dog handlers flying before now.
Now then, I'll let you work that one out all by yourself. Would you have the ac sitting there that 90kg lighter just incase you suddenly have to take a pax, or have that 90kg fuel in the tank & in your back pocket?

Is there any particular reason why every post you have made since this topic was started, contains an insult?

SilsoeSid

19th Aug 2013, 18:46

I get the impression Mr.B, that you think we have to stay light not because of any potential pax uplifts, but to enable us to operate like this;

bl0quiYnTGc

:rolleyes:

PANews

20th Aug 2013, 09:36

A week today NPAS is to hold a meeting with industry about rebuilding the existing EC135T2 fleet to a common standard. The meeting is NPAS + industry rather than the 'pilots' that supposedly occupy this forum but I am a little confused.

Although this 'event' has been known about for quite a few days and arguably it will make a difference to about 70% of NPAS pilots [in that it will make the fleet similar in spec] it has not managed to push aside this squabbling about whether a PCSO should fly in a police helicopter and how much fuel is aboard.

Does anybody have an opinion why? Perhaps it is less important than I thought to have a common AUW?:confused:

misterbonkers

20th Aug 2013, 10:36

SS, light on fuel so you can behave like a bunch of over-emotional underpaid actors in a TV soap? The wonders of television and entertainment eh?:rolleyes:

It was a question regarding your SOP. So we can deduce that is a no then. You do not leave capacity for passengers at your unit. Thanks for clarifying that :ok:

To clarify; in the case of the EC145 a 90kg Pax appears to make no odds.:ugh:

In the case of your EC135 it is clearly a concern for you.:D

If something isn't achievable then it isn't achievable.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

No doubt you'll find something above insulting. My sincere apologies. Please try not to cry like one of those actors!

SilsoeSid

20th Aug 2013, 12:19

Mr.B, please don't call us a bunch over-emotional actors :=
Until you yourself have been called to a scene involving rivers/quarries, cars and people, or indeed any such tasking ( for real that is ), I don't think you are entitled to make such remarks. This time you've not only gone out to insult me, but everyone else out there in this whole spectrum of the business.

You once again you've clearly shown that you have missed the point of what a post is saying.
The video I posted is to highlight what you think we get up to and therefore insist that we need a light fuel load to enable us to achieve it):ugh:

So we can deduce that is a no then. You do not leave capacity for passengers at your unit. Thanks for clarifying that
No problem, but just so you get it;
'No, I do not specifically leave capacity for a passenger(s).'
Just to make it even clearer for you to understand why, for what reason should I leave that fuel tank emptier than I need to?
If I had to go and pick someone up, I'm going to burn fuel getting there.
If I need to take someone from base and we were too heavy, I can drop one of the observers.
If I need to take 2 pax, I can drop off both observers.
If I need to take 3 pax, well, perhaps the combined weight of the 3 pax might be less than that of the 2 observers :eek:
(don't tell them I said that!)

Contrary to whatever impression you may have gathered from wherever, in general, the operational carrying of passengers isn't that common an occurrence.

If something isn't achievable then it isn't achievable.

Wow, forever Mr flexible eh!
Good job you weren't on 'The Endurance' back in 1914.

aeromys

20th Aug 2013, 12:58

A 20 stone "plus" observer is not unusual in the police world.

Cabby, do you know of a single, UK Police Air Ops base, that has an Observer who weighs more than 20 stone? So much so, that it is not unusual to find such heavy Observers?

jayteeto

20th Aug 2013, 13:30

As they say, the only time you really have too much fuel, is when you're on fire

Thats the one!

Back to PCSO debate....... It was a jolly, just admit it. The bit about being her 'patch' and helping the crew is rubbish. Most of my pax were flown above their patch and didnt have a clue which way was up. They are entitled to carry a pcso, they broke no rules........ except the spare Y-fronts recommendation. Flying suits are suitable wear for all occasions, discos their speciality.
PS. Glad to hear about the EC145 capabilities, full of kit, full of crew AND full of fuel. Hopefully our charity is thinking of getting one. What is the ZFW of a met ac prepared for service??????

Ye Olde Pilot

20th Aug 2013, 21:06

Until you yourself have been called to a scene involving rivers/quarries, cars and people, or indeed any such tasking ( for real that is ), I don't think you are entitled to make such remarks. This time you've not only gone out to insult me, but everyone else out there in this whole spectrum of the business.

Drama queen!

Silso Sid always wants to be right and does not appreciate if flying a turbine helicopter was difficult and the tasks were so complex why is the UK pay so low.

The answer is there is an abundance of qualified pilots who can fly what is an easy days work.

Take a break Sid and checkout some real chopper flying in Australia or Canada and the USA. The guys in this video spend most of their time in the air and not drinking tea in a crew room.

How would your rules work in this game?
Heli-Logging Timber Harvesting with Helicopter - Erickson Air Crane - YouTube

SilsoeSid

21st Aug 2013, 01:00

Ye Old;
Horses for courses.

The guys in this video spend most of their time in the air and not drinking tea in a crew room.
Mmmm, let me think about that one while I try and find something about what these guys do during the evening and at night :rolleyes:

p.s. Did you watch your own video link?
"Bundles are stacked to helicopter capacity based on elevation and fuel load factors"
:ok:

Fortyodd2

21st Aug 2013, 07:18

PAN,
What makes you think that the pilots have not been consulted or that there isn't a pilot on the project team?
One of the main aims of the project is to reduce airframe weight to enable more fuel to be carried. Remember, with 10 less aircraft, those that are left are going to need to fly further and for longer.

misterbonkers

21st Aug 2013, 08:17

Silsoe,

We are talking about flying helicopters here under a PAOC. And one of your roles as a pilot is to ensure the safe outcome of the flight for those ONBOARD.

We're not talking about saving the universe or discovering the South Pole. We are not talking about great feats of human endurance. We are not talking about being in a war zone.

As a professional pilot, regardless of the job you are doing, you have a duty of care towards your passengers who may well themselves be over envolved in the task THEY are trying to complete - YOU are ultimately there to provide the platform and there are times when you must say NO. :=

Your Unit's FSO must surely understand this?!?

Unfortunately people have pushed the boundaries far too often and this has resulted in their deaths, the deaths of their passengers and even more rules and regulations for the rest of us.

An Oop Norf ASU regularly has visitors who fly so you could say its a common occurrence there (disclaimer - all pax meet guidelines as laid down in CAP612).

And as for Soaps, dramas, movies - usually the directors have an idea of what they want to see from the mock police aircraft! Can I direct you to a great Bollywood film called Tez (3.7/10 on ImDB). Their portrayal of a UK Police helicopter had a TFO with a GPMG hanging out the side firing bullets all over the shop! Oh I know why - for DRAMA!

Maybe you're in the wrong job, maybe you should work in TV/Film instead!

Tonight on Emmerdale, pilot Sid is running low on fuel whilst chasing Sandy on his electric scooter. Should he land with minimum fuel allowed? Should he land below minimum fuel? Should he return to base to refuel? What does his Ops Manual say? Is it acceptable to bust the limits? Are the limits there for a reason? Oh no, the low fuel light is ON. How much time has he left? (Cue adverts).

Ye Olde Pilot

21st Aug 2013, 08:20

There is an old saying SS..'If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen'.

As I said earlier you make a drama out of nothing in all your posts.
You obviously are not happy with the job and it's term and conditions but seem to know all the answers. Have you thought of a job in management

SilsoeSid

21st Aug 2013, 08:23

Just a quick retrack for Mr.B eat al;

Firstly we are referring to the D&C EC145 NOT your EC135!

What do you think happens when the 145 goes away for servicing or 'tech'?
... and finally on the PCSO side of things, don't you think it funny that you have more 'entitlement' to a 'jolly' than a PCSO?

"d) holder of a current pilot's licence who intends to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft flying under and in accordance with the terms of a PAOC and who is being carried for the purpose of training and familiarisation;"

SilsoeSid

21st Aug 2013, 08:39

We are talking about flying helicopters here under a PAOC. And one of your roles as a pilot is to ensure the safe outcome of the flight for those ONBOARD.

Where have I said otherwise?
Don't forget the additional responsibility for the safety of persons outside the aircraft !

As a professional pilot, regardless of the job you are doing, you have a duty of care towards your passengers who may well themselves be over envolved in the task THEY are trying to complete - YOU are ultimately there to provide the platform and there are times when you must say NO.

Where have I said otherwise?
Don't forget the duty of care to any other persons that may be affected by the aircraft !
There are often times when I say no!

Your Unit's FSO must surely understand this?!?

Of course he/she does, as does every member of our unit and every other unit world-wide !

An Oop Norf ASU regularly has visitors who fly so you could say its a common occurrence there (disclaimer - all pax meet guidelines as laid down in CAP612).

We run a visitor scheme that also 'regularly' flys visitors within certain time of day and year parameters.

Maybe you're in the wrong job, maybe you should work in TV/Film instead!

I prefer the real life option thanks.
However if I ever do go into TV/Film, I will be getting in touch to ask for your advice based on your experience ;)

Every day is a learning day, so thank you for your advice on Captaincy :ok:

Ye Olde Pilot

21st Aug 2013, 08:44

If you had to do this every day SS in an R22 with no padded seat you'd know what an an easy life you have.
Heli Rider!!!1 - YouTube

SilsoeSid

21st Aug 2013, 08:56

Mr.B, you really are entertaining;

Tonight on Emmerdale, pilot Sid is running low on fuel whilst chasing Sandy on his electric scooter. (a) Should he land with minimum fuel allowed? (b) Should he land below minimum fuel? (c) Should he return to base to refuel? (d) What does his Ops Manual say? (e) Is it acceptable to bust the limits? (f) Are the limits there for a reason? Oh no, the low fuel light is ON. (g) How much time has he left? (Cue adverts).

A. What is wrong with landing with MLA?
B. No he shouldn't
C. Ideally, however any refuelling location is fine
D. It doesn't say 'where' you have to land with your MLA
E. What 'limits'?
F. Limits are always there for a reason
g. 10 minutes

SilsoeSid

21st Aug 2013, 09:00

YOP;
There is an old saying SS..'If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen'.

As I said earlier you make a drama out of nothing in all your posts.
You obviously are not happy with the job and it's term and conditions but seem to know all the answers. Have you thought of a job in management

Who said I don't like 'the heat'?
How wrong you are. As far as a management position .... What! And drink even more tea ;)

SilsoeSid

21st Aug 2013, 09:13

YOP;

If you had to do this every day SS in an R22 with no padded seat you'd know what an an easy life you have.

Of course, I came straight into this job with no prior experience and not one sandbag to pull up to the camp fire :rolleyes:
(Memo to YOP: purchase cushion)

I find it quite entertaining that on one side I have Mr.B telling me about Flight Safety and Captaincy, and on the other YOP telling me I should 'man up' while posting videos of some of the most unsafe flying practises going.

Herding cattle that way in an R22, are we supposed to be impressed? Concerned maybe, but certainly not impressed.
Try herding elephants in a Gazelle :ok:

PANews

21st Aug 2013, 10:28

SS

There is danger evident in this thread.....

FOUR of the last five posts have been you [talking to yourself].

Thomas coupling

21st Aug 2013, 11:42

This thread has lost its way...................

Turn the lights out S.S.............:(

SilsoeSid

21st Aug 2013, 16:56

Agreed TC.
(please notice that it wasn't me that brought up the logging and herding. I'm only replying to what is being asked)

PAN, the reason for that is, as always, rather than cover lots of replies to different people on different issues in one long post, it makes it easier on the eyes to do it that way. Would the editor of a publication have the letters page answered all in one reply, or address each point & person individually?

http://www.coolnotions.com/AGifs/Lights_05.gif

Ye Olde Pilot

21st Aug 2013, 20:23

Silsoe

I'm sure you are a good pilot and a nice bloke but we only have one life and if you don't like what you are doing then perhaps you should try something else.

Looking at the numbers a typical UK police pilot is going to spend most of his working week sitting on the ground. That is the nature of the job just like a dog handler.

The UK is never going to be New York or Miami or even Sydney.

Most of your work will involve petty crime and missing persons who usually turn out to be not missing.

All jobs end up being routine and you'll just have to accept the terms and conditions.

If you want something more interesting then join the crew on the air ambulances who get results every day and do not come on here moaning.:ok:

Hughes500

21st Aug 2013, 20:38

Ye Old Pilot
Ambulance boys not on here moaning, they are obviously better than police pilots as they don't need to go to The Scilly Isles to recce landing sites, just to bring the thread back on course :ugh:

SilsoeSid

22nd Aug 2013, 00:07

Sorry for the delay in getting back to your post YOP, I've been on duty for the past 4 hours and in the air for 3 of them. Only just on my third brew now :ok:

If you want something more interesting then join the crew on the air ambulances who get results every day and do not come on here moaning.

Wow, that's one huge assumption on all of those points you've made there YOP! Having done that job, I know which one I prefer ;)
You have just proved that assumption is the mother of all ****-ups :=

Looking at the numbers a typical UK police pilot is going to spend most of his working week sitting on the ground. That is the nature of the job just like a dog handler.

And exactly the same 'nature of the job' for one of your beloved air ambulance pilots. I'd like to see your air ambulance/police pilot flying time figures. (See the first line of this post) I'd also really love to see where you got your dog handler information from, but probably not as much as a dog handler would :eek:

Most of your work will involve petty crime and missing persons who usually turn out to be not missing.

IMHO, The only 'petty crime' is the one that happens to someone else! Ever hear the phrase, from little acorns might oak trees grow? Much the same for 'petty crimes', they tend to lead elsewhere!

Just because a police ac gets deployed to a misper job, doesn't necessarily mean that we expect to neccesarily find that person. Surely the main unquantifiable part of all of these searches is being able to clear vast areas quickly, enabling the officers on the ground to follow other leads of enquiry ultimately leading to the successful location of that person, instead of that time being spent on the massively time consuming ground searches. It also allows those units to clear and be despatched on other jobs. (The thin blue line is unbelievably thin!) And for your info, we do actually end up finding some of these missing people, usually in locations where ground officers wouldn't.
:ok:

SilsoeSid

22nd Aug 2013, 00:31

Hughes500;
Ye Old Pilot
Ambulance boys not on here moaning, they are obviously better than police pilots as they don't need to go to The Scilly Isles to recce landing sites, just to bring the thread back on course

I thought they were there to re-survey the sites, sites like the air ambulance bases and hospital LS's that require re-surveying at least every year. Just like the air ambulances, believe it or not, police ac ad hoc landings also take place in the same way ..... Think about it, after the air ambulances and their crews are tucked up for the night, who do you think the ambulance control centres can contact for a casevac? :ugh: (not moaners...indeed!)

Perhaps that's the reason we carry stretchers and calculate the loading figures for a stretcher cas. & medic before each duty, day & night, 24/7. And to maintain 'on thread', that won't change with NPAS :ok:

Hughes500

22nd Aug 2013, 06:04

SS

My comment was to get things back on track as you have been getting a rather unnecessary hard time !!!

[email protected]

22nd Aug 2013, 06:16

Think about it, after the air ambulances and their crews are tucked up for the night, who do you think the ambulance control centres can contact for a casevac? oooohhh.... that's a tricky one, let me think......I know it begins with S..........oh and ends in earch and Rescue;)

jayteeto

22nd Aug 2013, 07:27

I've done both jobs in the last 10 years. You get more flying time on a police unit, you get more time out on the job with the air ambulance (sitting at scene while the paras do their work). Police helicopters get called out of hours for casevac when the air ambos have gone home (that will change soon with night ops).
In reply to the statement that the uk is not New York, Miami or Sydney...... no its not, its a group of countries many many MANY times larger than those cities put together. London, Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle have quite a bit of action you know. Its not just missing persons either, there are some exciting jobs too, and some very, lets say, technical jobs that require cunning and skill at being invisible.
We had some quiet times, but generally Liverpool kept us busy most days, if you think most of the working week is spent sitting around, you went to the wrong unit. There are some very misinformed comments being made at SS, I don't personally know him, but he does talk with some reality on what is happening. He also tries to answer all comments made about him, unlike some.
If you have watched Skycops or police/camera/action, it doesnt make you an expert...........

Thomas coupling

22nd Aug 2013, 08:24

NPAS must love you two: SS and JT2. Between you, you've managed to deflect all the crap coming their way.
Can we start a new thread perhaps: A police pilot's blog....or something.

What is NPAS up to these days anyway? Any dirt on them or are they getting the job done quietly?

I'm not trying to be unnecessarily critical of you 2 or anyone else who overly frequents this thread lately but look back and count how often some protagonists are posting on here!!!
Let's try extra hard to post juicy NPAS 'stuff' making it worthwhile instead of dribbling over miscellaneous useless drivel.

Are there any national meetings where NPAS updates all the partners?
Are any stats being recorded?
Have the MET joined?
Are some forces still refusing to join?
Have annual flying hours gone up due to 'sharing' cabs between regions?
Is PAS servicing the 135 still?

Ah: Police Camera Action: Am I still in it?;)

Coconutty

22nd Aug 2013, 08:56

I can personally attest to :

a) Sid's ability to say NO when needed - including several years ago to his employer
when under considerable pressure from his Maintenance Manager
who somehow managed to remotely ( by telephone ) diagnose an aircraft
with a fuel leak as "fit for one flight" of about 45 miles to the Maintenance Facility :oh:

b) The credibility of his Unit's FSO :ok:

Can we get back on track now, as I can't really see what Lumberjacking Skycranes
or R22 cow herding have got to do with the title of this Thread : "UK NPAS discussion" :confused:

Looking forward to some sensible updates on progress when the next Units join up - soon ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

Fortyodd2

22nd Aug 2013, 09:23

YOP,
Your comment about Dog Handlers shows how badly informed you are.
The "Sitting" done by the handlers in our force occurs whilst at the wheel driving from one end of the County to the other because there are so few of them. 300-400 miles per shift is not un common - and this is by no means a geographically large County.

Thomas coupling

22nd Aug 2013, 11:00

Cabby: Good spot.
About time the 902 was inched out! Bell - you are joking aren't you, cabin too small, crap carrying capacity and...oh yes...exposed tail rotor.
And guess who will win this maintenance contract...
PS: Poorly written article by the way!

jayteeto

22nd Aug 2013, 12:58

NPAS don't need anyone to deflect, it doesnt matter how good or bad they do, nothing will change. I left BECAUSE of its introduction, my unit was sacrificed. Despite being one of its worst critics, I say.......... Get on with it, make the best of what you have and quit whining, you will change NOTHING.
Sometimes when you spend all this time sitting around and you overdose on PPrune, you read misinformed comments on a subject close to your heart. Try hard as you might, you bite, sorry for sounding like I do TC, I cant help myself!!

SilsoeSid

23rd Aug 2013, 01:07

Mr B.

Just landed, 'saw this & thought of you'.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/1c189e37913c0de389c7e58fe498683d_zpsaeb77eda.jpg
;)

MightyGem

23rd Aug 2013, 01:10

oooohhh.... that's a tricky one, let me think......I know it begins with S..........oh and ends in earch and Rescue
Not so crab. Our unit's had 3 or 4 casevacs in the past couple of years, and turned down others.

Anthony Supplebottom

23rd Aug 2013, 10:17

UK NPAS plans EC135T2 standardisation | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/08/22/uk-npas-plans-ec135t2-standardisation/)

PANews

23rd Aug 2013, 10:43

Not so.

That item was not written by the 'usual' Editor and I think he assumes too much.... the numbers are wrong... he talks of ten but ten do not need the work... it is only the handful with high skids.

And no where in the NPAS paperwork that this story is based on does it say the 902 or the 109 are dead meat... someone is assuming much too much.

md 600 driver

23rd Aug 2013, 10:47

UK NPAS plans EC135T2 standardisation | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/08/22/uk-npas-plans-ec135t2-standardisation/)

is that cost saving then ?

Anthony Supplebottom

23rd Aug 2013, 10:51

PANews wrote:
.. I think he assumes too much.... the numbers are wrong...

You mean helihub got it wrong? :eek:

But in the end I think we will see enforced standardisation - there were even rumours that "big" orders for a single type were part of the motive behind the move to NPAS (supported behind the scenes by more than one manufacturer).

PANews

23rd Aug 2013, 12:19

Rumours driven by what. Last time I looked we are in a recession. True it may have just got better but when this plan was hatched we were supposedly in a downward spiral.

The core plan was to adjust the existing resources so that the load was spread more evenly..... i.e. rather than have 5 aircraft doings under 700 hours and the others doing 1300 all the [smaller] fleet could do about the same. [those numbers are plucked from the sky, not 'real' before you start]

There is/was no massive pot that might provide a massive "big" order..... single type..... that would be many times the projected cost of this EC135T2 tweak. They say £3-7M .... but clearly this meeting is all about sounding out industry to see what it can be done for..... Run a rumour like that past any manufacturer and of course they are going to rub their hands and shout 'Me, me, me....'

£1M per airframe seems a massive number but if there is an assumption that the whole fleet will get identical sensor fits that will be a big chunk if they go one way and less if they go another.

It depends whether the intention is to upgrade and modify regardless of the cost or to take the cheapest route [i.e. keeping the Spectrolab searchlight rather than convert the whole fleet to a different searchlight option would be a no brainer].

I suspect that this side of the meeting next week no-one knows the answer or the cost.

If you need a mind picture of where it will go.... I suggest you just look at the seven most recent deliveries.

jayteeto

23rd Aug 2013, 12:42

Sid, 90kilos???? I've launched on 90 kilos :ok:

[email protected]

23rd Aug 2013, 15:35

Mighty Gem Not so crab. Our unit's had 3 or 4 casevacs in the past couple of years, and turned down others. do you have any idea how many night medtransfers and night medrescues UK SAR does? It's a lot;)

SilsoeSid

23rd Aug 2013, 16:53

Sid, 90kilos???? I've launched on 90 kilos :ok:

Lol, I suppose I could have done the same, but wouldn't have been allowed to land again ... unless 30 kg was enough to take me through to day :eek:

MightyGem

24th Aug 2013, 03:03

it say the 902 or the 109 are dead meat
I think they will be though. Would you buy a 902?

do you have any idea how many night medtransfers and night medrescues UK SAR does? It's a lot
I'm sure it is. Just saying that we do some as well. Not the transfers though.

PANews

24th Aug 2013, 05:04

There is a fear, brought on wholly by the record of the 902, about reliance upon 'one manufacturer' although the recent experience with EC and the 225 suggests that EC will be capable of putting right the problem quickly [if you count 6 months as quick].

Anyway, nothing that the EC135 ever did - and the police across the world are reliant on it so if it does go wrong air support as we know it will be suspended across Europe.

The trouble is that the alternatives are either too old [109], too big [189] or not certified [Bell 429] so the 902 will have to limp on a fair bit longer.

zorab64

24th Aug 2013, 09:35

Not in complete agreement with SS (from an editing, number of posts, point of view) as there are a few issues that could be dealt with in one edition, since I last read this thread. In a particular, linked, order therefore:

1. Spare capacity = flexibility. 100kgs (in a 135) either means one pax (but not 20 St) OR 30 mins fuel. Either can be loaded quickly - but de-fuelling in any sensible timescale is not an option. :=

2. Fuel load is the easiest to adjust, but often needs to take into account the weight of subsequent shift crew, with or without planned pax, and therefore needs a little planning. As SS intimates, saying “No” to the pax comes higher up the list than saying no to fuel. [And some posters need to get their heads round the different aircraft types/weights quoted, rather than criticise the professionals who have posted correctly and relevant to their type experience]

3. 20 stone Pilots or Obs make a mockery of flexibility. Some (pre-NPAS) units had weight limits to enhance operational flexibility, but I understand this may appear too difficult for NPAS HR to get their heads round. :ugh:

4. NPAS needs visitors to ASUs to spread the message. Flying visitors (specifically Police employees, including PCSOs) is an essential part of “selling the message” about Air Support. It’s even more important under NPAS, since there will be more occasions where “the aircraft’s not available”, due to one thing or another (but normally being miles away in the service of another county), which is the general impression the ground officers have of helicopter availability. Unless they actually see what the job entails, they won’t understand the pressures on the aircraft. Yes, some posters who don’t work in the business may see it as a “Jolly” but it makes little difference to endurance, unless your aircraft is less capable than it should be . . . which leads on to -

5. Standardising aircraft types/specs makes complete sense in the 135 fleet, especially with everybody flying further under NPAS. This is not to say they’re discounting the 902 fleet, just that they’re dealing with the most prolific model in the fleet first. Whilst the most recent multi-purchase were all P2+, it would seem sensible, in the light of the above discussion, to at least ensure all 135s were able to maximise their endurance by upgrading to 2910kgs. That way, the only payload variables would be the removable equipment (varies by unit, but not drastically so), fuel and weight of crew/pax . . . discussed before!

6. Police equipment & upgrades are obviously important as well, and especially for those older aircraft that rely on 8-10 year old sensors etc, and it would be much better to have a similar standardisation for the older airframes, as has been afforded to the P2+ bulk-buy. It all makes things a lot easier when swapping airframes around and sorting out efficient Police mapping is an essential start IMHO.

7. Before there’s any miss-reading of para 5, I am not suggesting the demise of types other than the 135, just enhancing the 135 fleet, as mentioned by PAN.

Dolphin 101 :ok:

RotaryWingB2

24th Aug 2013, 09:54

Excellent post Zora.

SilsoeSid

24th Aug 2013, 19:33

(shortened)
1. Spare capacity = flexibility.
2. Fuel load is the easiest to adjust
3. 20 stone Pilots or Obs make a mockery of flexibility.
4. NPAS needs visitors to ASUs to spread the message.
5. Standardising aircraft types/specs
6. Police equipment & upgrades

Clearly each unit will have its own idiocyncrocies, and I'm not sure whether zobra is being generic or basing the post on experience, however as I see 1-4 (based on my experience);

1. Spare capacity = Operational Limitation
2. Fuel Load = Operational Availability
3. 20 stone Pilots or Obs don't exist
4. NPAS does get visitors

1. When the times I've been called to carry an 'unannounced' operational pax straight from base can be counted on no fingers, yet the times I have been on a 'routine task that' turns into a distant and/or prolonged task etc. can be counted on a centipede or two, I'd rather have that extra 30 mins fuel already on board thanks!

2. Sitting on the dispersal with 30 minutes less fuel than I can take, generally means that in 90 minutes time I have to; leave the job earlier, not do the jobs that always crop up on the way back in and limits my circle of ops by a 30 mile radius etc. If an operational passenger was ever to have to board at base (see 1.) and the fuel load was too high, one of the observers can always be initially left behind. As far as subsequent crews are concerned, my zfw is probably of the heavier, so as it turns out, I tend to leave the ac below the max fuel for the next crew configuration anyway. Besides, come the latter flight(s) of the shift, the fuel uplift is adjusted, if necessary, to allow for any special loadings for the next crew, such as a visitor or training. Surely the easiest thing to adjust, is the thing that you don't have to adjust just before going out

3. We are still waiting for evidence of this mythical 20 stone observer.

4. I think you'll find that most if not all units run a visitor scheme to allow for just that process to take place.

---

If I may finish on a point from 5.
it would seem sensible, in the light of the above discussion, to at least ensure all 135s were able to maximise their endurance by upgrading to 2910kgs.

Based on zobras previous comments, what's the point of upgrading to 2910kgs to maximise endurance if you're keeping that spare capacity (in the form of endurance), just incase someone turns up to fly, which in my experience, they don't!

J.A.F.O.

25th Aug 2013, 08:26

Sid, you either need some new reading glasses or to take a deep breath and count to five before typing replies.

Fly_For_Fun

3rd Sep 2013, 10:48

Are there any plans to publish figures on requests from forces, attendance, time on scene, etc, etc after the 1st anniversary of NPAS coming to be?

Fly_For_Fun

6th Sep 2013, 08:10

That's a no then!

SilsoeSid

6th Sep 2013, 09:49

..in the meantime, with only a few weeks left until the Central Region joins NPAS, a quick 5 minute briefing vid, just incase other units get called into the Metropolis;

Birmingham Briefing Video (http://youtu.be/EoHVO1eSMFc)

Fly_For_Fun

6th Sep 2013, 15:40

SS have all the PCSOs watched this? No need for flying famil's then. 😂

SilsoeSid

6th Sep 2013, 16:55

FfF, It is now an integral part of our 'awareness day' package :ok:

Having flown around a fair few of our PCSO's, it certainly gives them a better idea of their patch and how best to utilise us, as it does with any other Officer. In particular, having seen how much we can see, helps them describe what they want us to look at more effectively.

Chances are that they will rarely speak to us themselves, as usually there will be someone else coordinating, but gives them the confidence to call us up should they need to.

In fact, I think that next week I have a PCSO visiting on a famil flight.

Ye Olde Pilot

6th Sep 2013, 21:01

How do you cope with the stress Silsoe?

I sometimes wonder reading your posts if you need a holiday.
These guys can help you relax back in to your stressful career.
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h338/rotors99/P1110844-1.jpg

Lot's to complain about terms and conditions here.
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h338/rotors99/1B7D05AF-3D62-4AF4-9D44-B917837EC4C9-14196-000009046873FD4B_zps44e2027c.jpg

With thanks to the real chopper pilots:ok:

SilsoeSid

6th Sep 2013, 22:39

Thanks for your advice YOP, however amongst other things, I once had a 'break' just like that with the Austrian Air Force thanks. It was ok and looked exactly like your links. I must say that landing just below the summit of Grossglockner was particularly fun, as have all the other interesting landing sites around the World.

Guess I'll just have to put up with this life of constant stress. How do I cope?
Well it's simple really, sometimes I'll have tuna on my baked potato and other times I'll have baked beans. I don't know which until I toss a coin at lunch/supper time. We all deal with stress in different ways :p

With thanks to the real chopper pilots :ok:

I'd love to know how you are qualified to say that and just out of interest, are those your pictures you have linked to, or did you take them off someone else's photo bucket site and make it look here as if it is you?

I bet 'Vertical Freedom' might object to someone claiming his work as their own :=

Faithless

10th Sep 2013, 18:46

Don't forget the sausage and rocket sandwiches Sid washed down with lashings of Tea made with your own steady hands.

You certainly looked chilled to me buddy :ok:

Ye Olde Pilot

10th Sep 2013, 20:19

I seem to recall Silso Sid had another long running thread over jealousness
regarding an autogyro long distance challenge some years ago.

I can't find a thread where Silso has not been whining.

Maybe tinnitus setting in or a problem with his headset.

I'm just happy he is not out in the North Sea moaning about terms and conditions:ok:

SilsoeSid

10th Sep 2013, 23:42

YoP,
You really sound like someone who has been unfriended on Facebook :ok:
Get over it ;)

Coconutty

11th Sep 2013, 08:54

I can't find a thread where Silso has not been whining. I can't find ANY posts in THIS thread, ( titled "UK NPAS discussion" ),
where Ye Olde crabby Pilot with an apparant downer on Police Air Operations in general,
has contributed ANYTHING to the Subject, other than having a dig - firstly at Police Officers working as Air Observers,
and more recently at one of the industry's professional and respected Pilots. :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

Fly_For_Fun

12th Sep 2013, 12:36

Are all the main players now on line with NPAS (excluding the MET as I think they may never join) ?

Thomas coupling

12th Sep 2013, 15:24

What makes you think the MET won't join......it's happened already.

Fortyodd2

12th Sep 2013, 20:12

FFF
The Midlands region join on 2nd October, the Met join 29th Jan 14.
The only forces not on board are South Wales, Wiltshire and Humberside due to "Contractual difficulties".

Aerodynamik

12th Sep 2013, 21:25

What makes you think the MET won't join......it's happened already

What makes you think the MET have joined.....they haven't.

aeromys

13th Sep 2013, 12:33

Well, the Met have sort have been on board since Oct 12, providing the 24 hour aspect for the SE region. But not fully NPASed up until Jan 2014.
Their in house Engineering becomes ECUK at the end of March 2014.

SilsoeSid

18th Sep 2013, 15:53

2 weeks to the day for Central Region to join the throng and all seems good to go. I can't see any great changes likely to disrupt our usual good service and as we have been mutual aid/cross bordering for some time now, this isn't likely to change day to day ops too much.

In the words if The Ramones,

'Hey Ho, Lets Go!' (http://youtu.be/InK4xolg6vk)

MightyGem

18th Sep 2013, 23:20

Just wait until you start getting all the bureaucratic ***********. :ugh:

SilsoeSid

19th Sep 2013, 10:27

Oh well, just have to increase the selection of fillings for my baked potatoes.
:ok:

Fly_For_Fun

19th Sep 2013, 15:21

All seems to be well in the NPAS world then. Keep up the good work. 👍

TheDog

19th Sep 2013, 20:02

All seems to be well in the NPAS world then.
I do take it that your speaking with your tongue firmly in your cheek. :*

Thomas coupling

20th Sep 2013, 17:29

Who has applied for the Head of Compliance post then, on the senior management board?

Colonal Mustard

25th Sep 2013, 16:37

Just saw this on the BBC, i thought the policy of forces was not to get into chasing motorbikes due to the increased risk to riders and public and call on a helicopter to combat,monitor and ascertain a home address for a covert unit to follow up, or are forces planning on the assumption that an aircraft wont always be within the force boundary??, if a mod can embed the video??

BBC News - West Yorkshire Police chase off-road trial biker (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-24273552)

CM

SilsoeSid

25th Sep 2013, 17:46

Did you watch/listen to your own video/link Colonel?

"The pursuit is then on and it lasts for over a mile"

I think anyone can have a good guess that a pursuit lasting for a mile will be well over before any helicopter can lift, let alone get there. An example how proactive patrolling, with a little Lady Luck as far as pursuits go, can be so effective and that's not only for pursuits.

However things like proactive patrolling can only be driven from local officers. Thankfully, this will still continue under NPAS. Happy days :ok:

Colonal Mustard

25th Sep 2013, 19:47

Silsoe,

apologies, your quite correct i did not watch the whole video, still i thought a mile was enough distance to get up speed and knock someone over .......my point was that if the area was known as a hotspot then the heli should be the starter for 10, just wondered whether West Yorks have invested in trial bikes as they maybe do not think that they could rely on a cab being hired for the task.

I must have had a bit of NPAS`ism

1. Great idea
2. Didn`t fully understand what it was i was sharing to everyone
3. Went ahead anyway

- Pin pulled, rolled in and ..................brace - :E

SilsoeSid

25th Sep 2013, 20:31

I don't think the trials bikes are just for these biker scallywags because someone doesn't think a helicopter will be made available. They're quite handy I'd have thought for any jobs out in the sticks such as moorland, dales and general large area coverage unsuitable for a car. Also fairly handy in town. I wouldn't be surprised if most forces have them including the 'metropolitan forces'. ;)

Of course the helicopter would be available in that situation, however the problem is not as easy to solve as it sounds. Although they may be in a 'hotspot', they tend to only pop up for short periods at random times. We get most of ours while we are out on other jobs, rapidly redeployed and usually able to get them on camera before we are even in the area.

I suspect the no pursuit for bikes policy you mentioned is for the bikes out on the main highways, where if the biker crashes they'll be getting a lovely big handout as it was the pursuers that made them ride so fast and so dangerously!

For these annoying off roaders as shown in the article, there are tactics used involving the helicopter that are very successful :ok:

p.s. Like the NPAS'ism :E

SilsoeSid

2nd Oct 2013, 23:11

Dear YOP,

I really don't understand where you get your ideas from.

Having gone through the 61 pages and 1,202 posts of the previous thread (before the NPAS threads were split) in an attempt to find something that I have said or could have been misinterpreted to support your viewpoint, there is nothing to back your rants. As I knew, at no point whatsoever have I said anything to give the impression that, "You always complain about your job and t&c's on here" and I would have been very surprised if I or anyone else could find anything remotely along those lines.

You'll have to go elsewhere for your scoop. :ok:

Wagging Finger

3rd Oct 2013, 16:49

SS,
So in one week you have read the manual AND the whole of this thread, I bow to your prowess.....and stamina, that must be some fine coffee you serve in there.:D:D

SilsoeSid

3rd Oct 2013, 20:56

Lol, the manual and coffee was on shift; the thread sift and cereal, better than counting sheep to drop off ready for the next 'session'.
:ok:

Ye Olde Pilot

25th Oct 2013, 21:10

Time to put this thread to bed.

The reorganisation went to plan.

The loss of some helicopters has had no public impact and indeed reduced costs and ops have shown there was too much slack in the old system.

As I have suggested before no point in chasing boy racers.

SilsoeSid

25th Oct 2013, 23:39

Y.O.P.I hate to be a party pooper but plods chopper coppers in their 'Klown Kaptain suits' are a waste of public money .
It would be better to assign the funds to the Air Ambulance operations in the UK.

...who of course, wear the same suits, helmets etc :ugh:

As you insist in continuing with your 'pilot attire' rants in various threads around the site;

Flying suits are a uniform provided by an employer. They provide fire resistant protection, have useful pockets and pads and as simple coveralls not only keep our own clothing clean they are designed to be anti snag.
(May I also suggest you read your beloved Nepal thread and take a closer look at the pics :p )

Bar slides, just like on every other civil occasion they are worn, are for identification. How can it be an ego issue if the only people that see you 98% of the time are the other 2 crew on duty :confused:
(p.s. Capt. is an appointment not a rank)

Over and above communication, helmets provide many things a headset cannot such as protection; providing not only cranial protection, but eye & face protection from both environmental effects and 'natural mishaps' such as bird strikes. A helmet may also have upon it; mounting systems for night vision aids, torches etc.

Just one example for you to understand .... why;

Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Aviation Investigation Report A11W0070 (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2011/a11w0070/a11w0070.asp)

Loss of Control – Collision with Water
Campbell Helicopters Ltd.
Bell 212 C–FJUR
Slave Lake, Alberta, 12 nm W
20 May 2011

Flight Helmets

The pilot, who was not wearing a flight helmet, received severe head injuries during the impact sequence. The pilot's flight helmet was found inside its bag at the rear of the helicopter cabin.

The occurrence pilot was not required by Campbell Helicopters to wear a helmet, nor is there a regulation requiring helicopter pilots to wear head protection.

The second most frequently injured body region in survivable helicopter crashes is the head. 4 According to United States military research, the risk of fatal head injuries can be as high as 6 times greater for helicopter occupants not wearing head protection. 5 The effects of non–fatal head injuries range from momentary confusion and inability to concentrate to full loss of consciousness. 6 Incapacitation can compromise a pilot's ability to escape quickly from a helicopter and assist passengers in an emergency evacuation or survival situation.

In 1988, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) reviewed 59 emergency medical services (EMS) aviation accidents between 11 May 1978 and 03 December 1986. This study resulted in NTSB's recommendations A–88–009 to the FAA and A–88–014 to the American Society of Hospital Based Emergency Aeromedical Service asking them to require that flight crew and medical personnel wear protective helmets, and encourage them to do so, to reduce the chance of injury and death.

Transport Canada recognized the safety benefits of using head protection in its 1998 Safety of Air Taxi Operations Task Force (SATOPS) 7 report in which it committed to implementing the following recommendation:

Recommend Transport Canada continue to promote in the Aviation Safety Vortex 8 newsletter the safety benefits of helicopter pilots wearing helmets, especially in aerial work operations, and promote flight training units to encourage student pilots to wear helmets.

In addition, SATOPS directed the following recommendation to air operators:

Recommend that helicopter air operators, especially aerial work operators, encourage their pilots to wear helmets, that commercial helicopter pilots wear helmets and that flight training units encourage student helicopter pilots to wear helmets.

The TSB has documented a number of occurrences 9 where the use of head protection likely would have reduced or prevented the injuries sustained by the pilot.

Same report with pics
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp185-6482.html

SilsoeSid

25th Oct 2013, 23:41

Public money to air ambulances!!!!

YOP, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, but then again, as a journalist you don't need to :=

Ye Olde Pilot

26th Oct 2013, 00:11

Silsoe

The hiviz safety wallahs have turned the whole uniform scenario into a mockery.

I can't tell the difference now between a real plod, a plastic plod and a traffic warden or a so called security officer. There is a bloke who turns up in my local pub every Friday night wearing his entire prison officer uniform from a local high security unit complete with his ID tags and key chains.(But be rules about that)

Cost for value the police air operation in the UK needs scaling down. Not music to your ears but reflected in my community charge which pays your wages.

Flying suits are a uniform provided by an employer. They provide fire resistant protection, have useful pockets and pads and as simple coveralls not only keep our own clothing clean they are designed to be anti snag.
(May I also suggest you read your beloved Nepal thread and take a closer look at the pics )

Not sure what you mean but I guess if you had been to places such as that you'd have got the bigger picture.

It would be amusing to see a pilot with your attitude trying to survive the R22 muster scene in Oz for a year or two. I'd love to be a fly on the wall the
fist day when you ask for the babygrow suit:ok:

Nail The Dream

26th Oct 2013, 06:47

Even more speculation and guesswork from someone that it not in the business :ugh:

The reorganisation went to plan.

NO IT DIDN'T !

The loss of some helicopters has had no public impact

What fact(s) / Public survey are that supposition based upon ?

... reduced costs and ops have shown there was too much slack in the old system.

Where are the figures, and what specifically, do they relate to, supporting this statement that costs have been reduced ?

... no point in chasing boy racers

Is that just your opinion ? - Have you consulted anyone affected by the often disastrous consequences of these so called Boy Racers ?

there is a public perception that the force is no more than a tax collector

Is that one particular force, ( "the force" ) or all of them together -
Please provide details of the Public satisfaction survey that confirm this, if you are going to speak on behalf of "the Public".

The fact is that the huge expense of police air ops does not make the public on the ground any safer.

Again, Really ? What are the FACTS then ? - please provide them.

... the reality is all the criminals they catch are petty crime merchants ...

Which particular planet do you actually live on ?

... plods chopper coppers in their 'Klown Kaptain suits' are a waste of public money ...

Just another of your personal opinions ( and mild insults ) - I assume with no facts or information to back it up ?

It would be better to assign the funds to the Air Ambulance operations in the UK.

OK that confirms what I thought -
You have absolutely no idea of what you are ranting about.

You obviously have a BIG downer on Police Air Operations, and it seems likely that nothing anyone else says or does
will change your opinion - which of course you are entitled to, but may I suggest, and request,
that until you can actually back up anything you say with facts and figures or other supporting information,
you keep your opinions to yourself now - you've made them, and should move on
unless you actually have anything beneficial to add, rather than suggesting that a Thread, in which you have NO direct connection, be closed !

Bye bye.

Nail

p.s. I think I just used up my whole allocation of Troll food :eek:

Fly_For_Fun

26th Oct 2013, 10:58

YOP, I haven't laughed so much in ages. You are indeed a tool, but not the sharpest in the tool box. 😝

Aerodynamik

26th Oct 2013, 11:09

YOP, please enlighten us. Do you speak with any actual inside knowledge of police aviation? May posibly be able to take you a bit more seriously then!

airpolice

26th Oct 2013, 11:29

no point in chasing boy racers

Well....... if this nutjob is wrong in saying this, I'd be interested to hear what makes him wrong. Given the appallingly light sentences handed down, what exactly is the benefit to anyone of chasing and catching them?

I'm not saying they should not be chased, but once caught, something more permanent needs doing to them, otherwise it's just a "Stop, or I'll shout Stop again" kind of reaction.

I know that dealing with Magistrates who are out of touch with the real world is outside the scope of NPAS and the crews who do the job, but eventually someone needs to focus the resources on the fights that you can win.

Nail The Dream

27th Oct 2013, 08:57

It's not just "boy racers" that get appallingly lenient sentences,
or even get "let off" completely because CPS think they might not reach their targets
for the number of successful prosecutions :rolleyes:
It's all sorts of criminals - right across the board ......

.... and It's not just the NPAS organisation, or the air crews,
it is the whole Police service that DO manage to arrest the criminal,
but have little to no influence at all on what sentence might be passed by the Courts.

So let's just give up completely then, and not bother arresting anyone at all - "WHAT'S THE POINT" :ugh:

Nail

Ye Olde Pilot

28th Oct 2013, 20:44

For a lot of these bored street kids baiting plod and initiating the chase complete with evading the chopper crew is an extension of a computer game.

There is no intention from the start of stealing the car to sell on.

They often work out a chase route and escape path. As for evading thermal imaging just dump the car in a city centre and walk in to a supermarket, bus station or pub and job done.

The cost/risk analysis does not make sense.:ugh:

For those who get caught and feature in those police camera action tv shows it's a badge of honour. We've all seen Smokey and the Bandit.

The other aspect of this type of policing is the distraction theory where plod is wasting time on petty crime while real villains are making money.

jayteeto

28th Oct 2013, 21:06

Ye Olde Pilot

28th Oct 2013, 21:36

Give me an example of a yob baiting plod by stealing a car who got a serious stretch.

Most of the time it's delinquent youth's from run down area's with nothing better to do.

I'd like to see a reappraisal of where my police precept is going.

Traffic/parking/vehicle crime assigned to VOSA/Highways Agency and more proper coppers back on the beat. I can't remember when I last saw a proper plod in my local town so that says it all.

Burglaries/petty theft etc is all now down to crime numbers and the insurance companies. Hence the better clean up rate.

SilsoeSid

28th Oct 2013, 21:46

YOP is a journo folks, article building !!!

Ye Olde Pilot

28th Oct 2013, 22:22

I'm long retired and happy flying Silsoe so not interested in that sort of rubbish.
(I never did the print or domestic stuff only global news hence my notice of you and Global Eagle.)

I've also had the luxury of flying around the world in my aircraft and not being a hired hand flying a cab for someone else. When you've flown your own for 30 years you'll know what I mean.

You won't engage in what I'm saying and what I've asked Theresa May to look at in a recent letter.We should not be risking the death of innocent motorists and pedestrians in these games. I've also written to the ACPO in regard to this issue. A few posts on this site are not worthy of any publicity.

The decision on how the police use traffic cars and the helicopter support units to chase petty criminals is down to chief constables and Theresa May.
A BBC's senior tv correspondents wife who is also a journalist nearly lost her life in one of these chases. (It will not take much googling to find the story)

Frankly I would like to see all such incidents prohibited unless it involves a major crime.

I'd like to see a lot more cross funding between air ambulance ops and police air ops.

It would make a lot of sense to use trained paramedics as police air observers.

Multi tasking is the way to go these days.

I want more bang for my police precept buck.

You appear to just want more hours to the pension.

SilsoeSid

28th Oct 2013, 22:35

Priceless!!!

ShyTorque

28th Oct 2013, 23:48

Give me an example of a yob baiting plod by stealing a car who got a serious stretch.
Most of the time it's delinquent youth's from run down area's with nothing better to do.
I'd like to see a reappraisal of where my police precept is going.
Traffic/parking/vehicle crime assigned to VOSA/Highways Agency and more proper coppers back on the beat. I can't remember when I last saw a proper plod in my local town so that says it all.
Burglaries/petty theft etc is all now down to crime numbers and the insurance companies. Hence the better clean up rate.

Of course, serious criminals never use cars.

Ye Olde Pilot

29th Oct 2013, 00:09

Of course serious criminals never use cars

No. They'd be caught quickly.

Bikes are a better idea..

Stolen motorbikes seem to be the preferred choice of jewel thieves in London.
BBC News - CCTV footage of jewel store raid released (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20251289)

All the thieving community are wise to thermal imaging helicopters, traffic car patrols and stingers.

They know how to commit the crime and blend back in to pedestrian traffic.

Commit the robbery and get on the train,underground or bus and plod can't find them.

Not rocket science:ok:

jayteeto

29th Oct 2013, 08:08

And there we have it. 180 degree turn please. The kids in the NW bait police with motorbikes. Criminals use cars, they are often stuffed with drugs or stolen property. Some massive sentences for some massive drug hauls.
PS. After a number of accidents with pedestrians (no cops involved) including a death of an innocent, a survey on Merseyside showed antisocial behaviour on motorcycles was public enemy number one. You do get the odd kid in a car, they make the papers, the majority don't and the internet warriors like you think that is the main problem. You are wrong of course

jayteeto

29th Oct 2013, 08:21

Jewel thieves in London use bikes? Ah, London, the centre of the earth. The safest and easiest way to pursue a car or bike in the city is a combination of helicopter and cctv. The old bollocks about abandoning cars and walking into a supermarket or shopping centre are also outdated. Modern cctv systems and direct links to the police mean that offenders are quickly identified in an average British city. 99.9% of our little angels would always head for home and bail the car near to where they lived. We could often guess the individual driving the car by the route he drove, placing a car near his home estate. Not kids, hardened aggrevated burglars who assault householders with weapons and steal from them. Should they not be pursued?
If you want to complain, it's a democracy, feel free, just don't expect the people here who do the job every day to agree with your flawed argument.