Light Aircraft down Hamilton Vic

[xr6]

Hi All. Just heard from a friend in Hamilton that a light plane went down there this evening. Hope all are ok! Anyone know anymore?

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://m.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/one-dead-in-light-plane-crash-in-victoria8217s-west/story-fni0fee2-1226725525395)

One confirmed dead. Really saddening to hear that a fellow aviator has lost his/her life.

RIP! :(

[Nomde plume]

Sounds like a night solo student from sharp from what the news websites are saying. A sobering thought for instructors! Thoughts with the family...

[seneca208]

One dead in Hamilton plane crash | The Standard (http://www.standard.net.au/story/1796263/one-dead-in-hamilton-plane-crash/?cs=6)

Indeed a sharp guy by the looks. Very sad, thoughts are with his family and the sharp community.

[michael36]

One newspaper was reporting the crash occurred about 6km north of the airport. Does not sound like a circuit exercise. Any further information?

[Capt Claret]

The ABC reports thus:

Trainee Pilot killed in night training crash at Hamilton Airport.

Police and air safety authorities are investigating the site of a fatal light plane crash in south-western Victoria last night.

A 20-year-old trainee pilot from New South Wales died when the single-engine Cessna 182 crashed into a paddock six kilometres north of the Hamilton Airport around 8:00pm (AEST).

The plane burst into flames upon impact.

Police say witnesses, including some other student pilots, are helping them with their inquiries.

Malcolm Sharp from Sharp Airlines says the pilot was conducting a training exercise.

"The student pilot was undertaking solo circuits to gain experience towards commercial licence," Mr Sharp said.

"It's a tragic accident and it will be fully investigated by the Australian Transport Safety Board (ATSB) and CASA.

"We extend our deepest sympathy to the family of the young pilot for their loss."

Mr Sharp says the young man was very well liked in the local Hamilton community.

Neville Blyth from the ATSB says investigators will look at a range of factors to find the cause of the crash

"Any ground marks or impact marks the aircraft might have made, the condition of the wreckage, flight controls, anything like that that might indicate why the pilot had difficulties that he did," he said.

He says the weather was fairly good at the time and there are no indications it contributed to the crash.

"We'll be gathering maintenance records, speaking to any witnesses that may have observed the flight or the accident itself," he said.

"Just basically gathering the facts so that we can start an investigation into this tragic accident.".

[UnderneathTheRadar]

6km north of Hamilton - isn't there a patch of granite that sticks up about that far north of the airport? Not a mountain or anything but still an outcrop?

UTR

[waren9]

One newspaper was reporting the crash occurred about 6km north of the airport. Does not sound like a circuit exercise

6km isnt far at all if he got disorientated.

rip to the young bloke.

[VH-XXX]

No moon yesterday until after 11pm. A few days ago you could have safely landed anywhere with the full moon that we had.

[Ultralights]

just completed NVFR with my partner recently, we didnt have any moonlight for any flight or navs. quite the learning experience. and can understand just how easily you can get disorientated and lost so close to your home airfield.
sad news indeed.

[compressor stall]

RIP young aviator.

IF -and I say IF - its proved to be somatogravic or other illusion, the ATSB and CASA have blood on their hands.

There have been several NVFR disorientation accidents in the last couple of years, and I have not seen one bit of preventative safety related information about it.

What is needed is a series of books complied of all the accident reports. One volume should have all the disorientation accidents. Another all the CFIT accidents. Another Cowboy accidents. etc. if they are left on a flyin school coffee table, they might just save a life.

[das Uber Soldat]

The entire NVFR rating needs to get the ass in my books.

[Wally Mk2]

Indeed a very sad event.

It would be nice to know that this young aviators tragic end to his life doesn't go in vain & perhaps we can have a better/safer way of getting this at best bloody dangerous flying regime looked at closely to even slightly reduce the chances of this happening again.
I recall doing my class 4 rating NVMC many moons ago & knowing what I know now after many 1000's of hrs flying blind it was/is damned risky!
It's an instrument rating always has been & at times harder than flying in the clouds 'cause at least you know yr IMC & that's that you fly 100% on the dials, with Ngt VFR there's always a bit of outside info & a bit of instrument info being fed to our own CPU (brain) & we are fallible creatures prone to making errors big time with at times conflicting illusions.
I've had a couple of very nasty illusion type of events over the years just after T/off (Sth of PID over the water just after lift off is a classic 'sink' feeling) & that shook me up & I had a few 1000 hrs under my belt!

Another of our brethren leaves us way too early, lets be just that little be sharper when we are out there under similar conditions.

Thoughts are with the Sharp family of students & employees as they are the ones left behind (apart from the family whom I can't imagine what they are going thru now) whom have to try & understand this & deal with it.


Wmk2

[RatsoreA]

The entire NVFR rating needs to get the ass in my books.

I wouldn't quite go that far... Flying at night can be very enjoyable, and done well, very rewarding.

Being aware of the risks and having appropriate training is more the answer, rather than just scrapping it entirely. I agree that the rating requirements could be better and are probably in need of an overhaul.

I won't speculate on this current incident. Still a shame though.

[VH-XXX]

Compressor Stall, the only article / advisory I can think of in recent years was about flying helis at night after the spate of losses in particular up north including rescue helis. As you say there doesn't appear to be anything that springs to mind for our end of the spectrum from CASA or ATSB,
however I have been known to miss things.


7 news just showed the wreckage, as good as 90% burnt out, within a km of the runway about 20 metres from a power pole with no visible skid marks or evidence of the approach to the final resting place.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The entire NVFR rating needs to get the ass in my books.

Nah sorry, I just don't get that response!

VFR Day
VFR Night
IFR Day
IFR Night

All have their inherent differences and challenges. If you get some good training, stick to the rules and use a bit of basic risk assessment and management, you should be OK! :ok:

[crikeys]

To the moderator
Could you please lock this thread.
A family has lost a son, we have lost a fellow aviator, debate on probable cause doesn't help ( remember the press has open access to this site ).
Once the ATSB has reported , exchange on this thread would be worthwhile.

[Jabawocky]

Crikeys

Last year there were 6 people I knew well killed in 3 separate accidents, and the big one was very close to home, the DH Dragon. At no time did I feel that any thread should be closed, despite far more speculative discussion than this thread.

A few years back, there was a Air North Brasiliia that crashed in Darwin, the C&T Captain who in my opinion let that situation get away from him was even closer to me. This was discussed at length on here. This guy was as close to family without actually being my brother, if that makes sense. Again I did not see the need to close the thread.

The benefits of robust discussion and sharing knowledge and experience is a greater good than the concept of closing threads. If I ever spear in, I want all the robust discussion so that some youngster reading it might learn by it.

Just my $0.02 worth of opposing view. YMMV.

PS....Once the ATSB report is released, it is unlikely there will be much discussion, as history has shown.

[waren9]

no one is pushing their idea as fact, been disparaging of, or besmirching the character of the deceased.

i see no harm done.

some would argue whatever the atsb puts out is speculation only slightly more informed

[VH-XXX]

The ATSB will be around two years and there is little chance of a valid explanation, usually just a couple of suggestions with little evidence. Now is the time to discuss, not in two years, especially if someone here learns from it. Nothing has been said here that could be used against the pilot, fellow pilots or the industry.

[crikeys]

Jaba
Family's in mourning , not the time to let the press take views from this site as gossip.
I feel as much as you for the lack of compliance from ATSB, but lets give some time for the family to griev.

[Capt Claret]

And how does conversation on PPRuNe prevent the family from grieving?

[Homesick-Angel]

Crikeys.

I'm sorry for your loss.

This site however is all about discussion on all things aviation including accidents.

I have read things on pprune that have totally changed my approach to safety and flying commercially in general.
At times the information I've got from here has been profound and who knows, it may have already or may one day save my life...

Its important to discuss... everything,

And ignore the rubbish..

All the best..

[crikeys]

Can everyone just stand back , remember a fellow aviator has just died , parents probably don't understand your wisdom in sorting the problem so soon.
My post is about ..don't give the press gossip, ...please back off

[framer]

It seems like we end up having this discussion on a regular basis. We had the same arguments a year or so ago about NVFR and shared some pretty harrowing stories about how we were lucky to get through. Does anyone remember which thread that was?
I feel very strongly that the NVFR rating should involve much more training and agree that ATSB/CASA should have acted prior to this crash.
As for closing the thread....discussing fatal accidents has always been an integral part of flying and always will be. Pilots ( remember this is a pilots forum) discuss the crashes because they want to know how to stay alive. I am of the same mind as Jabba, a very good friend of mine crashed and everyone on board was killed. It was discussed in depth and I never felt that it shouldn't be or felt any desire to gloss over/ ignore mistakes he made ( that is not an inference that mistakes were made in the Hamilton crash, for all we know it was mechanical). He made some mistakes but it is irrelevant to our friendship, it is flying.

[Centaurus]

The ATSB will be around two years and there is little chance of a valid explanation, usually just a couple of suggestions with little evidence. Now is the time to discuss, not in two years, especially if someone here learns from it. Nothing has been said here that could be used against the pilot, fellow pilots or the industry

Well said. Re pitch up illusion on take off as the cause of night accidents. This is commonly trotted out as one likely cause. If true it makes you wonder why aircraft are not crashing all over Australia on every dark night outback departure. There is a strong case that daylight "under the hood" instrument flying training does not necessarily adequately prepare students for dark night circuits, for example.

In daylight simulated instrument flying, it is normal (and very common) for the student to see a horizon in his peripheral vision. The temptation to sneak a quick look outside during simulated instrument flying is very strong and often the instructor will not know if the student is cheating. Every pilot has "cheated" at some time in his early instrument flying training and even on instrument rating tests under the hood. That is the beauty of proper simulators because you can't `cheat`.

But dark night circuits away from extensive ground lighting, is serious stuff for experienced IFR pilots let alone trainee pilots. . Before being sent solo at night under those conditions, a student should be certified as thoroughly competent at night instrument flying including low altitude go-arounds from the flare with everything hanging out (flaps and landing gear).

Nothing said here implies that happened on this occasion. But is a general warning to instructors that night instrument flying skill is so vital to student pilots undergoing night circuit training as well as night VFR cross-country flights.

[Homesick-Angel]

Homesick-Angel, you should share those learning gems. Got some references and links..

I do yes..

Canley Vale - PGW

Also

North of melbourne - YJB(i think that was the call sign?)-GAMs

What I took out of them is my business just as you may get something totally different.. or nothing.. But plenty was discussed in the threads and as I said before, some of the discussions had a profound effect on me..

[framer]

I've had a few really solid learnings from prune over the years as well HSA.
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that some of them have kept me out of real strife either.

[Fantome]

Flying Binghi (http://www.pprune.org/members/201416-flying-binghi)


Quotes:
"...Nothing said here implies that happened on this occasion... " (Centaurus)


"Uh-huh... so why post it to this thread then.."

FB . .. . . you are missing Centaurus's point altogether.

It is the idle speculators who clutter up these and similar forums with claptrap. As an old time Australian flying lawyer once said to his client to be -

"You just sit on your hands son and keep your trap shut till I get there."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

RE the potential for the loss of horizon at night, the final report on the loss of the ABC TV Squirrel is due any day now. Many there are who are hoping ATSB have found something concrete .

from the ATSB website -

On 18 August 2011, an Aérospatiale Industries AS355F2 helicopter, registered VH-NTV, was operating in an area east of Lake Eyre, South Australia (SA). On board were the pilot and two passengers. The helicopter landed on an island in the Cooper Creek inlet, about 145 km north of Marree, SA, at about 1715 Central Standard Time.
At about 1900, the helicopter departed the island, and soon after takeoff it collided with terrain. The pilot and the two passengers were fatally injured, and the helicopter was destroyed by the impact forces and a fuel-fed fire.

Updated 19 July 2013
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) received the results of the flight simulations and modelling that were previously advised as being conducted by external specialists in June 2012. The ATSB is now finalising its draft report, which will be sent to directly involved parties and other parties with an interest in July/August 2013. Feedback from those parties on the factual accuracy of the draft report over the 28-day DIP period will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated to be released to the public in September/October 2013.

Updated 9 July 2013
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) received the results of simulations and modelling conducted by external specialists in June 2012. The ATSB is now finalising its draft report, which will be sent to directly involved parties and other parties with an interest in July/August 2013. The final report will be publicly released in September/October 2013.

[PLovett]

One of the truest maxims that I have heard in aviation is ...."that you learn from the mistakes of others as you won't live long enough to make them all yourself."

Learning of others experiences is, to a large extent, one of the better things about PPRuNe. There can also be a lot of rubbish on this site but we are supposedly intelligent adults with the ability to sort out the gems from the dross. Intelligent debate without the need to resort to personal attacks should be the standard.

As to night flying, my personal wake-up call came when I nearly turned a Partenavia on its back turning left base for runway 30 at Alice Springs. North of the runway there are plenty of lights, south of it its as black as a witches heart. Half way around the turn (a delightfully balanced rate 1) I was shocked to see the angle of back was about 50 deg and increasing. I should have known better. I was taught better to fly the circuit on instruments until the runway was in sight ahead. I had dropped the ball at the end of a long day and vowed that it would never happen again.

I am not saying that is what happened in Hamilton the other night, just adding my own experience so that someone may learn from it. My sympathies are extended to his family and to the Sharp group, some of whom I met yesterday as part of my job.

[VH-XXX]

Flying Binghi, you seem to have an issue here where you are attacking everyone.

Can you please tone it down a little and offer constructive feedback versus tirades? There is much to learnt by many here by discussing this, particularly those just starting out their night rating or flying in general.

Thank you!

[Wally Mk2]

'crikeys' we can do our best/try to respect the families wishes here thru yr requests but as I said (or words to that effect) in my earlier post perhaps we can learn something of this tragic event & closing the thread will only have flyers scratching their heads wondering even more, not knowing & doubt are pretty powerful things that achieves nothing.

Look no doubt the 'unbiased' mod/s will close this thread we have seen that happen many a time here but I do hope that at least one young aviator out there with similar experience & intentions can take something from this thread & learn, after-all we ALL learn from others misfortunes.
The news media will report inaccurate facts anyway their experts at that regardless of this forum so we can't just close, delete, or pretend this didn't happen as we are ALL involved now, directly or indirectly.

Perhaps we could just talk about past experiences, discuss previous events similar to this one (as as has been the case thus far) & I think the majority here are in favour of keeping the discussion alive & for good reasons.

We all grieve in our own different way but we also need to understand.

Wmk2

[Arm out the window]

There's nothing disrespectful about discussing an accident if, as Wally says, it's done respectfully.

When one happens, the natural reaction of any pilot is to ask "What went wrong, and why?" This leads to conjecture about possible causes, similar events, near-miss type experiences we've all probably had.

No-one can assign blame, and that's not the aim - it's to put together a mental picture of what might have gone on; a reminder to ourselves and others of what can happen, and what steps we ourselves can take to make sure we fly as safely as possible.

A sad event like this is terrible for the family and friends, of course, but I don't think it's presuming too much to suggest they'd want others to learn from it.

[VH-XXX]

Well FB all I can say is that I'm glad you hold so much faith in the investigating authority that you will get a definitive answer.

As the FTDK once said, words like, pilots have been crashing aircraft since they were invented and rarely does anyone invent a new way of doing it...

[Fantome]

spot on again old son . . . . long gone are the days when our accident investigators came with such a depth of experience and know-how they
could get to the nub and the cause while the new boys could only scratch
their heads in wonderment at the intuition, and good old monkey cunning
of men who had been to more crash sites in war and peace than the sprogs had years from the cradle.

This is probably not the place for any of us to air the first-hand knowledge that some of us do have of closed investigations that failed dismally to reveal (or admit) primary evidence of what could reasonably be deduced to have led to the accident/incident.

Let us not bicker. Let this thread be maintained with posts that expand everyone's comprehension of whatever facets of airmanship and air safety
the discussion may throw up. What Centaurus said and what PLovett said
are not the idle comments of fledgling aviators. These are pilots who have run the yards, and are still doing so. Read back through their numerous posts on the maintenance of flying skills and the essence of good airmanship and you will not only find hard-won knowledge but that core of respect and humility that writer/airmen such as EK Gann possessed and conveyed with passion, conviction and total credibility.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Ahhhhh, you just gotta love Pprooooone, don't ya! :ok:

[Flying Binghi]

via VH-XXX:
Well FB all I can say is that I'm glad you hold so much faith in the investigating authority that you will get a definitive answer.

As the FTDK once said, words like, pilots have been crashing aircraft since they were invented and rarely does anyone invent a new way of doing it...


So ya think invoking the name of FTDK might save yer eh...



;)









.

[PLovett]

What was the mistake the subject pilot of this thread made ? Do we have an ATSB report to make some educated comments about ?

Never said he did, which you well know as you must have read my post to copy from. Just making a general point emphasised by my own experience in the hope that someone may learn from and not repeat the mistake.

[VH-XXX]

It is abundantly clear that FLYING BINGHI is simply trolling for trouble. We should simply ignore him or her and move on with worthwhile discussion. I'm not quite sure what he/she is trying to prove. Perhaps he/she is from Victoria where it is currently school holidays.

[Wally Mk2]

'FB' I think you may be in the minority here old chap:) In fact reading thru the posts here you may very well be alone in yr thoughts but hey we are all entitled to an opinion here as like you say ........."shouldn't we have an accident report first?"..........well we have had the accident & now awaiting the report (which will take ages) could mean this sad event will be lost in the minds of those that might very well be at the same risk so how about we all nicely chat about the effects of NVMC flying & throw some ideas/thoughts into the mix here as there are a lot of highly experienced drivers amongst us whom have wisdom to share.
We need not mention this actual event again but to make sure this guys life is not in vain he has at least opened our minds to thought provoking discussions & if it puts just one tiny bit of doubt in a flyers mind out there as to whether he feels confident to fly black hole type flying in VMC & then seeks further help/instruction then our now gone aviator has left a life long legacy.


Wmk2

[Fantome]

Talking about accidents and the benefits of robust, informed debate in these forums, take a look in 'Rotorheads' at a thread called WHAT DO YOU THINK?

(only our own dear mild-mannered FB would have the deep insight to see this as a thread hijack)

SASless

Don't you find it a bit odd....that after a guy kills his passengers and destroys an aircraft because he with malice aforethought runs it out of fuel and fails to carry out an EOL....that the focus of discussion is on Texting?

We saw a similar reaction to the 109 fatal crash in London a few months back.

What I see is generation of young folks that let their Thumbs do their thinking for them.

Yes it is early....but with a good cuppa in my hand....life is rosy.

As you well know.....to be called a Nimrod is not flattering....especially if earned.
 

SASless


If you cannot take care of what can only be considered one of the most basic tasks ever taught a Pilot.....checking the Fuel Quantity....especially after being told to do so.....everything else is just noise.

How was this Nimrod allowed to get to where he was?

What kind of system allows such utter incompetence to exist?

How did the Med Crew not tweak to something being wrong with this guy long before the day of the accident even?

I hope there is a good reason why the Training Crew did not fuel the aircraft at the end of their flight?

Why there was not an SOP in place at the Base to ensure the aircraft was prepared for service 24/7 unless certain defined events had occurred also seems missing.

If a Pilot cannot be trusted to check the fuel quantity.....what does that tell us about the Pilot, Base, Operator, Customer and FAA?

Sorry folks.....there are no excuses or alibi's for what happened.

The Guy was a Killer.....the only thing missing was the Gun, Knife, Axe or Chain Saw.....he used a Helicopter instead

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FB has asked me to append the following rider, which I do without further comment -

"For clarity, you probably want to add to your post that your not implying that the Hamilton pilot took of low on fuel and was texting at the time of accident."