VC10 Retirement [Archive]

MAINJAFAD

20th Sep 2013, 22:14

The most beautiful commercial airliner ever built

Concur, especially in the markings of the first model kit every built for me, by my late father.

http://thumbnails104.imagebam.com/27711/fc8ae8277100597.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/fc8ae8277100597)

Flypast over the Windy Lincolnshire Cabbage Patch at around 12:55L with a couple of GR4's breaking off just before the airfield boundry.

http://thumbnails106.imagebam.com/27711/901feb277100601.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/901feb277100601)

http://thumbnails103.imagebam.com/27711/7c4548277100609.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/7c4548277100609)

http://thumbnails106.imagebam.com/27711/219334277100614.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/219334277100614)

http://thumbnails107.imagebam.com/27711/2cd504277100587.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/2cd504277100587)

Seems to be dumping fuel out of the wing pod HDU's in the last photo.:cool:

fireflybob

20th Sep 2013, 22:47

A great flying machine - flew on it several times as positioning crew with BOAC in the 1970s.

Neal Rendall (aka Stubs) was on my course at Hamble (692) but this is the story I love the most:-

The VC 10 played a major role in the life of Rendall and his family (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1524888/Captain-Flaps-Rendall.html)

500N

20th Sep 2013, 22:55

Main

"Concur, especially in the markings of the first model kit every built for me,
by my late father."

Agree.

I think my brother or I had one of these.

Used to like the BOAC livery, looked good.

I think I still have an old BOAC bag somewhere :rolleyes:

kaitakbowler

20th Sep 2013, 23:59

As the shiny '10 signs off, from a penguin ,(all flap and no fly), MT Fitter/Tech, can I just say thank you to all those involved in the operation and support of this mighty bird. It took me and my family to and from the far east, (Brunei Hong Kong ,Singapore and Cyprus(x2)).

When the far east troopers started in the late 60's it was a quantum leap from the Britannia (13 hrs from Cyprus!! via Luqa) and god knows how long in a British Eagle Britannia from Paya Lebar, with no worries regarding baggage weight.

My thanks extend to the unsung MT drivers, Caterers, Cleaners, Firemen and Movers (and any other trade I have missed) without whom all those down route rates would not have been collected ;)

Forever in the mind, the Kai Tak trainers and the Conway howl.

PM

Thank you all.

Savannah Jet

21st Sep 2013, 03:02

47 years and 2 months after the first airplane was delivered to the Royal Air Force, the last ever VC-10 operational flights from RAF Brize Norton took place today 20 Sept 2013

ZA147 airborne as "Tartan 52"

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2810/9844966384_d88922c394_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9844966384/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/9845057093_9daae2d523_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9845057093/)

closely followed by ZA150 as "Tartan 51"

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3747/9844965934_54bf57e1db_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9844965934/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3750/9845011306_805ba737a4_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9845011306/)

Sadly, a sight never to be seen again

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3665/9844965184_1d273f7889_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9844965184/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3668/9844965154_9d59925fa3_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9844965154/)

And an immaculate flypast over the home of 101 Squadron

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5443/9844964724_559b2a099b_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9844964724/)

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5452/9844964464_a284f73b83_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9844964464/)

ZA150 "Tartan 51" lands at Brize Norton for the final time

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2873/9844964234_4b74e03975_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9844964234/)

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5453/9844964004_8f802790c9_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9844964004/)

and just behind is ZA147 "Tartan 52", and is the last ever VC-10 to land at Brize Norton

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7357/9845054743_7d4985417a_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9845054743/)

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5447/9845009486_7ca90811e1_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9845009486/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7363/9844978785_593f19b33d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9844978785/)

And the final taxi back to the ramp - I can't help but wonder what the crews were feeling at this point

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5456/9845053613_06b5853a0c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9845053613/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2843/9845053183_3deca8b571_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9845053183/)

Jolly Good Show by the boys and girls at 101 Squadron

Very glad I was there.

Sincere thanks to Brize Norton ATC for their generous hospitality

Squawk1177

Davita

21st Sep 2013, 04:35

Savannah Jet
Thank you so much for these pictures...I'm sitting in my villa in Bali which seems a million miles from where you took the pics...but you've managed to bring me there.

I was one of the first batch of crew (Air Eng) to train at BOAC on the RAF VC10 and, after a couple of years on 10 Sqn as the VIP crew, became i/c Air Eng training in the original VC10 Sim.
I left the RAF and UK in 1974 and thought I'd never see the 10 again.

A couple of years ago, I was driving past Vancouver airport, where I then lived, when this roar occurred. I recognized the noise and pulled over...my wife was confused so I said "please wait', or words to that effect and, sure enough, this mighty VC10 with roaring Conways went over my head leaving a tell tale smoke....tears were running down my cheeks, as they are now.

I think I recognize, in your pic of the landing, the background is the Brize Officer's mess behind the porta-potty....if so that climaxes my nostalgia as I used to park my Isetta bubble car right in front before spending many pleasurable hours in the bar. I lived in the (new then) modular built married M.Qtrs a short path around the back but enjoyed sqeezing that crazy car between others, and stepping out, as the door opened in the front.

I have the standard framed pic of XV 104 in storage somewhere...it will soon be given a more 'pride of place' location.

Thank you again for enabling my emotional day and I'm also grateful to all the other contributors to this VC10 thread....for restoring those memories.

Friday 20 Sept 2013....A sad but yet beautiful day to remember.....and your pictures will keep that memory alive.

CoffmanStarter

21st Sep 2013, 06:33

Wonderful pictures ... Many thanks for posting :ok:

I hope someone has ordered a taxi to bring BEagle home from Brize this morning :D

CoffmanStarter

21st Sep 2013, 08:14

Must have been a "good one" ... 09:15 and still no little green light from the Master ... said light might be a little dimmer when he does finally surface :D

Perrin

21st Sep 2013, 08:14

As I wrote before I worked on them at PIK with BA. We trained crews on the Standard VC10 and each one of us was given a VM ( that was the reg) tie with VM and VC10 on it if anyone wants me to send it to them reply at perrinpeter@sky .com

Keep them boys and girls
Peter

petitb

21st Sep 2013, 08:44

I am probably (sadly) one of the last surviving members of the original Vickers VC10 Flight test team based at Wisley. I was responsible for the development and certification programme of the AFCS. I first flew on the prototype G-ARTA on 29 Sept 1962. This was an exciting programme, encompassing all the autopilot runaways at high altitude/Mach No. on both the “Standard” and Super VC10. Also hot trials in Aden, and VMu’s etc in Madrid on the Super. In April 1965 I was on the inaugural to New York, and royally entertained by BOAC for 3 days.
As everyone here says, a magnificent aircraft, a tribute to it’s designers and test pilots, and I still feel proud to have been a small part of it.
Also magnificent pictures, thank you. :ok:

MrBernoulli

21st Sep 2013, 08:49

A great flying machine - flew on it several times as positioning crew with BOAC in the 1970s.

Neal Rendall (aka Stubs) was on my course at Hamble (692) but this is the story I love the most:-

The VC 10 played a major role in the life of Rendall and his family
The table I was seated on at the VC10 dinner last night included Rendall's granddaughter! We were on 101 Sqn together.

Capetonian

21st Sep 2013, 09:59

Thank you for those wonderfully nostalgic pictures. I flew many times on the VC10s in and out of east and central Africa.

NutLoose

21st Sep 2013, 10:03

Wonderful photos, thank you, looking at the one where they are taking off past the Airman's accommodation I can see my old room, it was on the airfield end so I used to get the pleasure of the noise everytime anything took off, (none double glazed) they've bricked up my window !

I have used the flyby ones as a wallpaper on my iPad, and Damn fine it looks, hope you do not mind.

BEagle

21st Sep 2013, 10:13

The table I was seated on at the VC10 dinner last night included Rendall's granddaughter! We were on 101 Sqn together.

Indeed. I should have placed that bet when I did her first sim trip and told everyone that it wouldn't be long before she became our first female VC10 captain - which she did! She later captained the last ever flight of the VC10K2 to its final resting place at St Athan, pulling off a superb landing in typically horrible Welsh weather.

A cracking night, eh Mr B? Lots of old faces and a good time was had by all - and over £8000 to the RAFBF from the auction. Perhaps the chap who paid all that money for the mounted control column yoke had slightly too good a time though as we later found him asleep all curled up on a sofa tenderly clutching the yoke in his arms. But Phil Tys.. has the photos for posterity!

Great to hear that ZA150 'J' is going to Dunsfold for preservation - my ex-boss AVM Dave Hurrell was overjoyed when I told him that 'his' Juliet will live on as he considered 150 to be his personal aircraft when he ran 101 some 30 years ago.

Oh and Beastie - was I really so mean that I only gave you a White Rating that time? Sorry, mate!

Tom Sawyer

21st Sep 2013, 10:41

Savannha Jet.....you made my day. Thanks for sharing.

SRENNAPS

21st Sep 2013, 11:53

Savannha Jet, ref Tom Sawyer post - ditto:):)

Absolutely stunning photos thank you for sharing with us :ok::ok:

Nutloose

I was a singly in the block 2nd from the right. Back in 1978 the first block from the right was the Andover guys, the second block was us, the VC10 end of Base Hanger, and the next two blocks were LSS. Great singly life. The entrance the other side of my block was right opposite the Pigs Bar. Happy days :O:O

NutLoose

21st Sep 2013, 12:09

I was in the second block from the left the LSS one, I was in the bricked up window downstairs opposite the steps, also first window around the corner (we moved about as it was decorated, they were the single rooms in the block, the rest being two man, I was also in the single room in the main entrance foyer on the right of the main door downstairs (cleared from RAF from there) the block was LSS and wings were split into shifts... A shift LSS was the upstairs and downstairs airfield side.

Dysonsphere

21st Sep 2013, 12:19

lovely pics thx for them

MrBernoulli

21st Sep 2013, 13:41

Perhaps the chap who paid all that money for the mounted control column yoke had slightly too good a time though as we later found him asleep all curled up on a sofa tenderly clutching the yoke in his arms. But Phil Tys.. has the photos for posterity!
BEags, at around 00:30 I certainly saw, ..... erm ..... shall we say 'PT19 McZero', asleep and cradling a VC10 co-pilots yoke.

I wonder if the Trng skipper who bid for the captains VC10 yoke also fell asleep? He was certainly well 'happy' when he made his winning bids, LOL!

Lionel Lion

21st Sep 2013, 13:58

Thanks for those pics, glad it was 2 K3's that were left

From the K2 camouflage model I made as a kid never did I believe where the VC10 would take me later. Res North and South, Kosovo, a crazy life in Incirlik, Afghanistan 01, Iraq 03, Bahrain dets, many trails, Dulles schedules, Calgary's and so on. Sad to see it go, hope you all had a good time last night, sadly I couldn't be there as work had to come first for once. Whoever has the great honour, enjoy the last ever VC10 landing, walk away from the aeroplane and don't turn round..it'll never look the same again.

Oh and for the history books, there was another double engine failure, happened on a 3 engine ferry once, had a flame out on the ferry...but thats for another day..and it was both the same side (B system hyds - ah you never forget...)

NutLoose

21st Sep 2013, 14:21

Didn't Maggie go Stateside in VC 10 but landed in a Trident, she came back in it and landed in a BAC 111

They changed the rules about carrying Pax with a gagged engine after that?

wub

21st Sep 2013, 14:44

On board during last sortie:

BBC News - Onboard as Vickers VC10 jetliners fly last mission (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-24183117)

SRENNAPS

21st Sep 2013, 15:38

Ref the video.
Did I hear that right......."based at BZN since 1984" wonder what the hell I worked on in 1978!!!!!

I suppose they could be talking about the AAR element only but.......:ugh::ugh:

lj101

21st Sep 2013, 16:13

Thanks to our ground crew over the years who kept her going and always did their best, thanks to my fellow aircrew for the amazing times we shared together. But most of all thanks to the VC10 for every safe landing from the first time I flew in her as a baby in my mothers arms circa 1967 until my last flight in 2012.

It's been a privilege.

BEagle

21st Sep 2013, 16:57

......from the first time I flew in her as a baby in my mothers arms circa 1967 until my last flight in 2012.

How could you possibly have flown in a VC10 years before you were born?

BEags, at around 00:30 I certainly saw, ..... erm ..... shall we say 'PT19 McZero', asleep and cradling a VC10 co-pilots yoke.

'twas indeed he, MrB! But his gyros were well toppled a while earlier.

But what a good night, eh?

Oldsarbouy

21st Sep 2013, 17:48

Amazing amount raised, well done to all. We at Morayvia would be grateful if anyone can tell us how much the two bottles of our Glen Moray limited edition malt whisky made for the RAFBF. For those whose bids failed Glen Moray still have bottles available, just call 01343 550900 or PM myself.

Sam Dodger

21st Sep 2013, 18:57

£501 for 101/242 and £502 for 10/242

NutLoose

21st Sep 2013, 19:03

Shame isn't it, they got a limited edition whisky produced to see the VC 10 out yet couldn't secure one.

Oldsarbouy

21st Sep 2013, 19:56

Thanks Sam, what a fantastic result so a big thank you to the winning bidders. All we have to do now is sell the remaining bottles so the Benevolent Fund can benefit further.
Nutloose, thanks for your inputs and, yes, it would have been great to have secured a 10 at Kinloss but it was outside the means of our small membership. Nice to see one has gone to Newquay though, wonder what they paid for it?

NutLoose

21st Sep 2013, 20:04

Ahh Newquay.... Not exactly a good track record, they got a Nimrod and where is that? still at Coventry after they shut up shop and moved south, what fate for that?

CoffmanStarter

22nd Sep 2013, 09:29

Just picked up on some really good HD footage of F (ZA147) arriving for the Leuchars Airshow recently.

Arrival of VC10 Aerial Refuller to RAF Leuchars AIrshow 2013 (ZA147) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y39VHIYVkL4&feature=youtu.be)

Still one drop dead gorgeous aeroplane :(

NutLoose

22nd Sep 2013, 23:36

Is one going to Newquay now instead of Brunty? As ones slated for Dunsfold.

Mandator

23rd Sep 2013, 06:45

One's already there.

NutLoose

23rd Sep 2013, 18:55

Thanks.

I like custard, this pointless exercise is to make the text long enough to be accepted.

BEagle

23rd Sep 2013, 19:08

?

.

oldsimman

24th Sep 2013, 13:26

Vc10 arrived overhead Dunsfold/Cranleigh 13.30. Was having lunch and heard something meatier and more interesting than the usual Gatwick traffic. Dashed outside just in time to see her banking away to the south,presumably to go downwind to land Dunsfold 07. I only flew on VC10 twice to and from Bahrein on the moonrocket trooper for my one and only ARDET. Only hope they do not bu**er it about as they have done the 747.

Savannah Jet

24th Sep 2013, 16:05

I was lucky enough to be at Dunsfold today for the very last flight of the final VC-10 built

ZA150 appears out of the haze at 1335

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7404/9917783903_edf4132176_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917783903/)

and performs a go-around for the large crowd

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5453/9917646616_d32851129a_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917646616/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2833/9917608775_04047cfffd_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917608775/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2854/9917646266_553d5fdb8c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917646266/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3779/9917781503_5c55c3e609_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917781503/)

before touching down for the very last time at 1342

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5512/9917686134_2b70ac9be4_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917686134/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9917644296_036c90f5f1_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917644296/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7385/9917684674_cc79a2499a_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917684674/)

Home at last, 43 and a half years after first taking to the air from Brooklands

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3711/9917604575_7ba5f9194c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917604575/)

That "Top Gun" moment

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5505/9917603925_6864840be2_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9917603925/)

Thanks to everyone who was involved in organising today - a unique opportunity appreciated by every one of us who were there.

My special thanks to Jelle and Julian, and the Brooklands crew

S1177

dervish

24th Sep 2013, 16:37

Brilliant photos. What a beautiful aeroplane.

NutLoose

24th Sep 2013, 17:36

Appears that Brunty will let you in for the last VC10 flight ever.

Over on another forum there is a quoted message saying that "VC10 ZA147 will be making the types final ever flight on Wednesday 25th of September. She will be flying in to Bruntingthorpe at approximately 1230. GJD have very kindly said that the gates will be open for people to view this historic occasion." so viewing should be easy

Brunty, best location to see last Ten arrive... WHERE? (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?126678-Brunty-best-location-to-see-last-Ten-arrive-WHERE)

One hopes I can get some pictures too.

Someone stated they hoped it wouldn't get mucked about with at Dunsfold like the 747, apparently it is owned by Brooklands Museum who use Dunsfold as a sort of out station, see

Last VC10 to Dunsfold (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?126671-Last-VC10-to-Dunsfold)

clicker

24th Sep 2013, 18:07

Will just have to go for a long drive tomorrow, can't miss the last VC10 flight, such a lovely lady.

Never did get a flight in one, much to my disappointment.

Avtur

24th Sep 2013, 18:26

Lets not forget that the Air (Flight) Engineer Branch comes one step closer to the end.

Best wishes to all the Engs, and I hope your future gives you what you want either in the Service or out.

Axel-Flo

25th Sep 2013, 08:27

Yes sadly for a "Few" it will maybe be E3 for the rest that fly, instead of "Eng yours for 88" it's now "Crew doors for arrival" or "Chicken or Beef". VC 10 Eng was probably the best Air Eng job out there....certainly for me (a non Air Eng) it was a real pleasure to have been given the chance to work with them. Yes of course a jobs a job nowadays I hope the MSO role is sufficiently challenging and fulfilling for them. And of course the Navs and ALMs that went that way too
:ok:

en5bwt

25th Sep 2013, 09:47

Due to the huge interest in the final VC10 flight, the Squadron has asked me to post that it is currently delayed pending a clearance of the fog. The crew are aiming to depart early afternoon.

slim white

25th Sep 2013, 11:17

Hope she comes over Cheltenham! I've been sat by the door with a camera all morning!
Great memories of many journeys in these old ladies and of a VC10 crew in Alaska that we joined in Freddie Mercury impressions in a bar once! '98 I think.

NutLoose

25th Sep 2013, 13:17

About 500 plus cars at brunty waiting

sharpend

25th Sep 2013, 14:18

Departed about 15:00 L. Flew over my house a few minutes later. Hope Bruntingthorpe is not out of fog. Then perhaps it will be back :)

The late XV105

25th Sep 2013, 16:26

Originally Posted by SOSL
The most beautiful commercial airliner ever built...

Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
The most beautiful *subsonic* airliner, I'd say...

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - and per my moniker I'm biased - but to my eyes Concorde has grace whereas the Ten has grace and beauty. Elegance defined.

Time to dig out my 35mm shots from Brize in the early eighties and crack open that bottle of 18 y/o single malt as a toast.

HoneyBunny

25th Sep 2013, 20:29

Nutloose

I see that you're a regular on here I wonder who you were amongst the crowd.Yes quite a good turnout don't you think. The weather for photo's was a bit gash being a bit misty/hazy.I guess around thirty/forty of use who hung around till the dying embers got the treat of a quick look over and in her which was nice.
I've no connection other than being an aviation enthusiast to the VC 10 unlike some people who were there, but I felt a real twinge of sadness as I walked back to my car, so much so that I kept turning around for what maybe one last look.
Hopefully one will be taken on by Cold War jets and though she'll have to trundle along like an earth bound bus, it would be great to here one spool up.

HoneyBunny

NutLoose

25th Sep 2013, 20:56

Yes Honey, I was there, I was near the Comet. XR808 is being kept as a runner for the open days, (the one with all the tail art on it) I noticed they appeared to have a spare engine for it too which is good.
Best aircraft I have ever worked on and a privilege to have had that opportunity. I am so glad you got the chance to have a look around inside her, it's one thing I've always encouraged throughout my career, to see someone full of beans and enthusiasm turned away from something they may have travelled a long way to see makes me wince, and if ever possible I've tried to let them have a look no matter how fleeting.
It was a good day even though the weather wasn't the greatest, took lots of photos and some of my attempts are here, kudos to Mr Walton for allowing us all in, they didn't have to and it must create added work for them.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/524301-day-music-finally-ended-bruntingthorpe-2013-a.html

Hatchet 130

26th Sep 2013, 00:23

NL,

So loved they gave it a name.

Hatchet.

Savannah Jet

26th Sep 2013, 08:43

After some delays caused by the autumnal weather around Oxfordshire and the Midlands, ZA147 duly arrived in front of a large misty-eyed crowd at Bruntingthorpe at around 1545

After a couple of sporting missed approaches and a last chance to hear the glorious howl of the Conways one last time...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7449/9947029124_bb05848b7e_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9947029124/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3703/9947013146_da25445739_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9947013146/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/9947012726_12bfc061e8_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9947012726/)

..the inevitable moment we all hoped we would never see

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/9947124003_35fa10e582_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9947124003/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2812/9947012586_6e0509cab8_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9947012586/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2853/9947001605_44a12a4c5c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9947001605/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3679/9947027774_1b101bd575_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bethpagejet/9947027774/)

The show's over folks - time to go home...

S1177

staplefordheli

26th Sep 2013, 09:04

Bit more in todays LM with video

VC10 lands at Bruntingthorpe airfield after last flight | This is Leicestershire (http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/VC10-lands-Bruntingthorpe-airfield-flight/story-19844162-detail/story.html#axzz2fzHm6UY1)

fireflybob

26th Sep 2013, 09:32

One memory I recall from BOAC VC10 days in the mid 1970s.

The crew I was on was positioning back from HKG as passenger (they did that sort of thing in those days) on a VC10. There was also a British Airtours crew doing likewise as their Company was extending their routes to more exotic destinations.

The flight had a scheduled stop at Kuwait where the aircraft went unserviceable which meant it was AOG until engineers and spares arrived from LHR. All the fare paying passengers were put on a Kuwaiti Airways B707 to continue to LHR but the operating crew and positioning crews had to night stop in Kuwait. Having bought bottles of duty free in HKG we were a bit concerned that Kuwait was a dry state but we were waived through customs and despatched on our way to the Hilton Hotel.

The largest crew party I have ever witnessed then took place in one of the palatial rooms and I will never forget the look on the room service waiter's face when he arrived with ice that we had ordered to go with our hooch.

Engineers eventually arrive and fix the a/c. We then all flew as passenger back to LHR on our own private VC10 in First Class with full cabin service. It was like an airborne night club down the back with people quite merry dancing to the pop music playing on the PA.

A happy end to a very memorable trip away - the halcyon days of airline flying when we all got the job done without lots of bureaucratic nonsense.

sharpend

26th Sep 2013, 13:09

Whilst talking of good trips, I was lucky enough to plan and captain the very last 'Global' trainer with 241 OCU (55 R Sqn). The destinations were: Akrotiri, Bahrain, Colombo, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bali (I think), Mauritius, Bahrain, UK. Two student crews and one set of FIs. The Ten also flew HKG - Kathmandu-HKG with another qualified crew whilst we were 'resting' in HKG!

We were asked if we would take a mate of the Stn Cdr to HK but as the crews were not qualified, the Colonel and his wife had to go as supernumerary crew. When we got to the first night stop (Bahrain) we all got off and the Colonel asked me when the slip crew would be boarding. I told him that we and the VC10 were night stopping, not just in Bahrain, but in Singapore also (2 days). Oh he said. To cut a long story short, when we arrived at his destination (HKG), he asked to stay on all the way round. On the return to Brize, he got a cab to LHR and flew BA back out to HKG!

It was our very last adventure, unfettled by passengers, in our very own private jet!:D Cannot see that ever happening again.

WE992

26th Sep 2013, 15:05

I understand from a reliable source that one is in fact going to go to Cosford by road.

NutLoose

26th Sep 2013, 15:12

I heard that too, mentioned it in the other picture thread, isn't the problem going to be the railway bridge..

Odd place to move it from though, one would have thought Coventry would have been nearer and easier.

Hope it does happen, isn't the Dunsfold one supposedly doing the same to Brooklands.

Lamin

26th Sep 2013, 17:00

The gentleman earlier mentioned seeing / hearing a VC10 in Vancouver a couple of years ago (2011) IIRC.

It came in to Calgary with a fuel leak, at -30 it was way to cold to tinker with. Dispensation was given to take it to Vancouver (the warmest place in Canada at the time to conduct repairs). I arranged parking and handling with the GH for a maximum of 78 hours------------they had never heard of or had seen a VC10 but were delighted to accept us.

24 hours later sat in a Vancouver hotel room watching the news of the bombing of Libya and BZZ saying forget it we are busy turned in to about a 7 day stop.

A local enthusiast got in touch upon hearing of the visit and asked if he could photograph it, film it record the engine checks-----------this guy was a hardcore anorak but very pleasant.

If anybody is interested look up Henry Tenby as he has a historic aircraft production and publishing company. VC10 in YVR with noise, smoke and lift off to fill your cravings I am sure. He was one very excited enthusiast.

Enjoy, any dramas PM me and I will see if I have any further articles.

Type1106

26th Sep 2013, 20:54

Sharpend,
Now when would that last " global" have been? Don't sound like a " global" to me as it didn't go "global" if you get my drift. Be interesting to know when you were an FI on 241 as well.
1106

topgas

26th Sep 2013, 20:55

Nice pics, NL, better than mine! If only the stories told during the afternoon could have been recorded for posterity. BA engineer who used to work on them at LHR, chap who made them back in the 60s (said they'll have fun getting the wings off, as there isn't a bolt in sight, all shrunk fastenings), guy who had '147 as his "wedding car" 15 years ago, complete with ribbon from the refuelling probe, someone whose dad made the flight engineer's throttle lever assembly (probably one of the only original bits left on the flight deck), and many more, from all over the country.
Strangely, one of the RAF ground crew was up on an elevated platform opening panels on the APU and engines and doing something inside.
End of an era, but well marked by those there.

NutLoose

26th Sep 2013, 21:30

My pics are in the link Topgas, hope you are not mixing them up with savannahs :) which are stunning.

Really was an excellent day, lots of stories where I was standing too from people who had worked on or flew in them or flew them.

Not a Crew Chief

26th Sep 2013, 21:44

Sorry Lamin, but they must have had a day off, or maybe not even been born! XV 101 was definitely in Vancouver 25th/26th Feb 1988 and I can't believe there were no others before yours.
Always one to take in local culture, Reindeer steak wasn't the best choice I've ever made but the short time I was there I remember it as one of the nicest places I was lucky enough to visit.
It was the last stop on a trainer that took in Little Rock, Hickam, Midway and Tokyo and the leg from Okinawa to Tokyo saw me past 2000 hrs in 1A.
In Tokyo we found a little bar where it seemed like open mike night. Karaoke hadn't taken off in the UK, if indeed it had arrived, so you can imagine how pleased the locals were when we joined in with every song.
Happy days

Axel-Flo

27th Sep 2013, 19:48

Topgas,
Not sure if you've compared pics of the flight deck then and now, yes of course the throttles at the Engs station are as was but I think you'd be surprised at how much is just as it was when it rolled out of the factory on day 1. Not that it made any difference, the new bits just made her legal, she was still a complete star and so very beautiful to fly.....:ok:

Al R

27th Sep 2013, 20:55

Apologies if I have overlooked the question and answer, but why is the cockpit section painted a different colour to the remainder of the fuselage?

NutLoose

27th Sep 2013, 21:03

I should imagine heat issues and a harder wearing finish.

NutLoose

27th Sep 2013, 21:49

They were both the same on the last two, appears to take in the front toilets back to about the fwd galley.

topgas

27th Sep 2013, 22:06

I asked about this on Wednesday and was told it is a heat reflective paint, which makes sense as it is the flight deck and a strip along the top

Davita

28th Sep 2013, 04:18

Holy crap...youall mean during those hours I sat in the cockpit, when it was shiny white, I was exposed to radiation.....dribblr dribblr.:mad:

I think that grey paintjob was MOD leftover from a navy shipyard in Glasgow..... around 1940... and its purpose was to reflect German radar! :E

ICM

28th Sep 2013, 08:23

This was covered in some detail on VC10derness earlier in the year:

A Little VC10derness ? View topic - Cockpit re-paint (http://www.vc10.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3098#p3098)

NutLoose

29th Sep 2013, 17:27

Nice article about the final flight of the VC10 into Brunty piloted by the Staish

End of An Era: Last Ever VC10 Flight Completed: key.Aero, Military Aviation (http://www.key.aero/view_article.asp?ID=6898&thisSection=military)

Surely he didn't pinch the logos off the yokes, they're both gone :O. :p

http://www.key.aero/central/images/gallery/7518.jpg

CoffmanStarter

29th Sep 2013, 17:50

Proper cockpit ... The "T", dials, levers and big switches :ok:

Saintsman

29th Sep 2013, 18:12

Actually, it looks like it's being robbed already.

Perhaps there's a 'secret' one still in service!

And it was the 'Flight Deck'.....

Chris Scott

30th Sep 2013, 14:22

Saintsman,

Forgive me if you've done more than my 2000 hrs in it, but "Flight Deck" always sounded a bit pretentious, and perhaps disrespectful to naval aviation. The only difficulty I had with calling the VC10's salon a "cockpit" was what term to use when the a/c were all sold and I converted to the B707. Like moving from a Bentley to an Austin Seven. One of our disgruntled captains coined the term "broom cupboard", but that wasn't guaranteed to assist with getting the trainers to sign the necessary paperwork...

After the 'Ten, the B707 pilot and F/E's panels were an ergonomic nightmare. And then there were the systems...

Bergerie1

30th Sep 2013, 14:59

And the view from the 707 windscreen was a bit looking out of a letter box!

Chris Scott

12th Nov 2013, 22:57

Hello all VC10 pilots and F/Es, not to mention ground engineers,

As some of you may have noticed, the Tech Log forum discussions in the aftermath of the AF447 accident have widened into a general discussion on Airbus FBW stall protection, including phase-advance.

Like the BAC1-11, the 'Ten had phase-advanced stall protection: probably on the pre-stall engine-ignition; definitely on the stick-shaker; and maybe on the stick-push. It may have been introduced or modified after initial entry into service with BOAC in 1964, following the BAC 1-11 test-fliight accident in October 1963.

Although the RAF didn't get its first a/c until several years later, any technical details or merely anecdotes from RAF service would be of interest.

For example, how common was it to get ignition and/or shake in turbulence/windshear at high altitude, and during flaps & slats retraction heavy-hot-high?

Chris

Davita

13th Nov 2013, 05:21

My memory is shaky but I think the standard practice was to switch on the ignition in severe turbulance at altitude. Didn't the F/E have those switches under a plastic lid in front of his thrust levers?

Like you Chris I converted from VC10 to B707 and conclude as you...we said it was liking a Rolls Royce to a wheelbarrow. The one contention about the wheelbarrow analogy is that the B707 front wheels sometimes didn't even come down...twice I had to manually lower the nose gear, but I never had to use the 'Hudson' bar...anyone remember, or use that?
edit...sorry, just had a senior moment...the gadget to manually lower the main gear was called a 'Johnson' bar...now where to hell was it stowed?

Chris Scott

13th Nov 2013, 10:21

'Morning Davita,
My memory is shaky but I think the standard practice was to switch on the ignition in severe turbulance at altitude. Didn't the F/E have those switches under a plastic lid in front of his thrust levers?

You're right, but IIRC that's a fairly common precaution on all jets. The stall prot on the VC10 (and probably the One-Eleven) came in the sequence of the three stages I mentioned, at ascending values of AoA. It's the "phase-advance" feature that we're particularly interested to understand on the current Airbuses. Just to remind you and maybe others: if the system detects a rapid rise in AoA, it can anticipate an imminent exceedance and trigger the relevant protection before the nominated AoA is reached.

This appears to have happened on an A340 on a NAT Track in 2001. First an overspeed tripped the autopilot. About 10 seconds later, a stall protection mode was activated, due to a severe but brief upgust which triggered it by "phase advance". In the absence of any stick movement by the crew, the system sought to maintain a safe level of AoA: the minimum AoA in the stall protection range. That resulted in a pitch-up, and the a/c entered a zoom-climb. Safe aerodynamically, if untidy, but there was another a/c above...

The only thing that event has in common with the VC10 is the phase-advanced triggering of stall protection. I've had stick-shaker several times on the One-Eleven at normal speeds in turbulence, and I think on the VC10 as well.

On the 'Ten, you'll remember, the most (only?) critical flight phase was the clean-up after take-off. IIRC, the acceleration had to be very steady to achieve a target of V2+60 by the time the slow retractions of flaps and slats were completed. When heavy, V2+60 was only a few knots below the flap limiting speed. Out of Entebbe and Nairobi for London, it was a common thing for the F/E to see and call the pre-stall ignition lights flickering on his panel (didn't have any female F/Es...). If you saw you were likely to exceed the flap-limiting speed, pulling-back on the yoke could (IIRC) in itself invoke the phase-advance stall detection.

That's what I'm asking you more-recent VC10 flyers to tell me about.

Davita

13th Nov 2013, 12:35

Thanks for the morning greeting Chris...actually it's 9:30pm where I am....hehehe

Sorry cannot help with the technical of the stall protection system. I've forgotten or, more likely, I never knew! but I do recall it was advanced at the time
However, I was the VC10 Sim F/E senior instructor for 3 years and I do recall introducing the stall system to converting crews . We would ask the trainee pilots to purposely stall the sim and recover. Some pilots really put themselves into the training and I can say that the stick-push was frighteningly fierce. Our training consisted that they should make every effort to prevent it becoming active. I think they got the message!
In all my flights on the 10 I only heard the shaker once, when my Captain, showing off to dignitaries, did a max thrust/V2 climb...but it only blurped for a second or two. That was probably that phase advance you talk about as we were nowhere near stalling..we were accelerating and climbing at an astonishing rate.
I seem to remember discussing...maybe we should de-activate the stall warning C/B for air shows, but that went nowhere.

BEagle

13th Nov 2013, 13:56

The only occasions I recall getting the stick shaker during normal flight was if the AoA probes hadn't been correctly set up. However, the lift rate modifier and pahse advance were more sensitive during slatless approaches and would often cause a brief rattle during the approach at around VAT+10.

We had one K2 which had never had the wires from the lift rate modifier connected - some idle git at the factory had just stuffed the wires behind the unit and it wasn't discovered until 'Scrapheap Challenge' at St Athan did a major service....

I had the stick pusher on a flapless approach once - and yes, it can be overpowered by the pilot! The aircraft had been sitting around at Incirlik for weeks and was just back at Brize - this was probably the first flapless approach it had flown for months. We later figured that the AoA probes were sticking due to all the dust and lack of washing at Incirlik, so had perhaps jumped and detected a spurious high rate of AoA change.... After which the aircraft were given a good clean when they returned from Incirlik.

A heavy K2 with a hight TPI value for take-off could be a real handful on departure. As soon as the flap/slat lever was selected in, the aileron upset would begin to run - whereas on all other VC10s that didn't happen until the flaps were at less than 14½°. This caused the centre of pressure to move inboard along the swept wing, pitching the aircraft nose-up. At the same time the TPI had to be reduced to the cruise value and flap limiting speeds observed - even worse if you then had to observe the '250 below 10' nanny limit. So it was a co-ordinated crew exercise to get the aircraft safely and smoothly cleaned up without busting any limits, then eased into a normal climb at which point the autopilot could be engaged in IAS hold....and breathe!

Dribble, mumble...tell that to today's magenta line kids with their AP in at 400 ft...mumble, dribble.....:ooh:

Saintsman

13th Nov 2013, 21:40

Memory is a bit vague but I think it was XV101 after being in the hangar undergoing mods for an extended period. On the flight test, the stick shaker went when the flaps were moved from approach to land. Gave the crew a bit of a start it did.

The system was re-calibrated and sent up for another flight. Same result.

The problem was finally traced to corrosion on the contacts of the micro-switches in the flap drum switch. Where they hadn't been used for some time, they had oxidised and affected the resistance of the circuit, so in effect, it was incorrectly calibrated.

Best bit about the stick push had to be the klaxon though.

Chris Scott

21st Nov 2013, 18:30

Hello Davita, BEagle and Saintsman,

Thanks for your anecdotes. Thought I'd better look at my pilot's conversion-course notes (Gatwick Bee-Hive, 1971). They are a mixture of my handwritten notes and diagrams of our Pete Horscroft's lectures on the subject, a few diagrams from the maintenance manual, and extracts from the ARB Flight Manual (Doc.No.VS.5.2). The latter document may be specific to the Type 1103/1109, but it seems unlikely that the stall protection would have varied from other types.

I was immediately struck by how sophisticated the system is, and reminded of the 13-point checklist that the copilot had to perform on it during the pre-flight checks at the beginning of a crew's stint. We and the F/Es certainly had it tough in those advanced, but BITE-less aeroplanes...

Had forgotten that the duplicated system means there are actually 2 AoA probes per side (one very close above the other, No 1 system probes being on the left). What I remembered well was that each heated probe is small, and its vane is hidden inside a slim conical cover which admits the air through slits in its leading edge. This is unlike the BAC 1-11 (despite the systems being otherwise similar), or any other a/c I flew subsequently - all of which have larger, uncovered vanes.

You may recall better than I that:
the L/H-side probes are nominated #1 system, and the R/H-side #2;
the lower probes signal the "AUTO-IGNITION", e.g., #1 (left) actuating the #1 igniter system in each engine;
each upper probe signals only its "WARNING" (stick-shaker & knocker) system - #1 (left) actuating the L/H control-column and arming the #1 "IDENT" system, and #2 (right) actuating the R/H control-column and arming the #2 "IDENT";
each lower probe's second task is to signal the "IDENT" part of its system - each system having its own horn, but either system able to actuate the pusher, fitted only on the L/H control-column.

The AUTO-IGNITION mode has no phase-advance, apparently, unlike the warning and ident modes. That contradicts a comment in my previous post (re the clean-up phase hot/high/heavy) *. According to my handwritten diagram and notes, it looks for an AoA which is modified only by Slats angle and Mach.

The WARNING mode looks for an AoA which is modified by:
rate of AoA **, Slats angle, and Flaps angle, but not Mach (?). This is further modified by an LRM (lift-rate modifier) for normal accelerations > 1G.

The IDENT mode obviously looks for a higher AoA than the warning mode, but uses the same parameters of modification, including the LRM one.

Davita,
I cannot find a figure for the pilot force necessary to overcome the push, but I thought it was a high 2-digit number in pounds?

BEagle,
You seem to have been keen on slatless approaches, so guess you were a base-trainer? Recommended approach speed slatless with full flap is VAT +20 on our 1103s/9, so I presume the VAT +10 was trainee error? ;)
Yes, out of Nairobi or even Entebbe for London, we used to fly absolutely level (if not a tad downhill, although that was frowned upon) for the clean-up, and some F/Es would gratuitously offer us full throttle in anticipation of the auto-ignition lights coming on. As you say, there was quite a lot of pushing to be done on the TPI levers (but nothing like as much as a G/A on a jet with underslung engines). Flap-limiting speed was 229, and V2 +60 about 224.

Added by edit (2014-02-23)

* So, when the F/E reported the auto-ignition coming on, it was caused by the actual AoA reaching the auto-ignition threshold - not a phase-advanced engagement (combination of high AoA-rate and AoA, as in turbulence).

** (sometimes referred to as "phase advance")

NutLoose

21st Nov 2013, 18:44

I used to get a couple of spacies on their summer camp to hold the columns while I tested it, told them to hold tight and it really did demo to them the force it pushed with, even though I'd told them what would happen, I then used to quiz them to see if they knew why it did it.

finncapt

21st Nov 2013, 18:47

I have not a clue whether it is correct, but I seem to remember a figure of 80 lbs as being the push force on the stick pusher.

It was one hell of a long time ago!!

Alan

BEagle

21st Nov 2013, 19:01

...so I presume the VAT +10 was trainee error?

No.

It was a flapless approach.
It was being flown at between flapless VAT and flapless VAT+10 as per SOP.

I was an A2 QFI in all roles on the VC10, not just a 'base trainer'!

Chris Scott

21st Nov 2013, 19:30

BEagle,

Sorry Sir! (And me a mere stoker.) But you said it was slatless in your post.

40 years is a stretch of the memory... I now realise, however, that you had already modified the VAT to suit the landing config, whereas the VAT I was referring to was the VAT for full slats and full flaps. So on that basis, you got the shaker at VAT +30. That's interesting.

(IIRC, the increments for slatless and flapless are the same, at 20 kt?)

Chris Scott

21st Nov 2013, 19:44

Alan,
"It was one hell of a long time ago!!"

Yes, 40 years and 5 jet types in my case. And you and I were daggers-drawn in those days: you at the PanAfric and we at the Norfolk!

FWIW, 80 lbs was about the figure I too had in mind.

NutLoose

21st Nov 2013, 19:50

Not my sale and I know there are a few VC Ten crews and even current members on here. There is a bit of VC Ten history on EBay.

Didn't know if I should post it..

Brian Trubshaw EPNS Silver Presentation Tankard VC10 First Flight 1965 | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261332694176&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en)

skua

21st Nov 2013, 19:58

Possibly acquired by the vendor at the recent Dominic Winter sale where Trubshaw's logbooks and a lot more were on offer.

BEagle

21st Nov 2013, 20:02

Sorry Sir! (And me a mere stoker.) But you said it was slatless in your post.

:rolleyes:

What I actually posted was:

The only occasions I recall getting the stick shaker during normal flight was if the AoA probes hadn't been correctly set up. However, the lift rate modifier and pahse advance were more sensitive during slatless approaches and would often cause a brief rattle during the approach at around VAT+10.

We had one K2 which had never had the wires from the lift rate modifier connected - some idle git at the factory had just stuffed the wires behind the unit and it wasn't discovered until 'Scrapheap Challenge' at St Athan did a major service....

I had the stick pusher on a flapless approach once - and yes, it can be overpowered by the pilot! The aircraft had been sitting around at Incirlik for weeks and was just back at Brize - this was probably the first flapless approach it had flown for months. We later figured that the AoA probes were sticking due to all the dust and lack of washing at Incirlik, so had perhaps jumped and detected a spurious high rate of AoA change.... After which the aircraft were given a good clean when they returned from Incirlik.

Chris Scott

21st Nov 2013, 20:35

Well then, Sir,

May I respectfully ask that you read precisely what I wrote?

HINT: I was responding to your first paragraph...

BEagle

21st Nov 2013, 21:40

"Maintain point eight four, thank you Mr Scott!"

:p

The point was that all VAT references in my posts do of course concern configuration-specific VAT....

Did you ever practise total hyd fail approaches? I.e. no flaps, no slats, fixed TPI, free-fall U/C.... Around normal VAT+40 at touchdown, with probably only reverse thrust to slow the beast on landing.

I only tried it in the simulator; it wasn't even a training requirement for our crews to try it, but it was quite an interesting challenge....:\

Chris Scott

22nd Nov 2013, 22:15

Quotes from BEagle:

"Maintain point eight four, thank you Mr Scott!"

WILCO, Zirr !

"Did you ever practise total hyd fail approaches? I.e. no flaps, no slats, fixed TPI, free-fall U/C.... Around normal VAT+40 at touchdown, with probably only reverse thrust to slow the beast on landing."

No... Should that be normal VAT +45? 3 full (non-antiskid) brake applications from the brake accumulator, or was it only 2? I was going to say that the 'Ten was unusual in not relying on system-hydraulics for the flying controls, but then I remembered that my next type, the B707 (if you can't take a joke, etc... :sad: ) had ailerons and elevators that needed neither electric nor hydraulic power, and worked pretty well.

"The point was that all VAT references in my posts do of course concern configuration-specific VAT...."

Yes, I'd almost forgotten that the VAT is config-specific. On Boeings and MD, IIRC, the equivalent to VAT is VREF, but the latter only has one value: that for full flap with full L/E devices. Every combination of L/E devices and flaps has its own increment above VREF. VREF is always bugged on your ASI. You then add any config-required increment for the landing, and bug that as well. During the intermediate approach, as you you extend whatever devices are available, you fly the appropriate increments above VREF - like you do on a normal approach. Don't know about Lockheed. Did you fly the Tristar?

STALL PROTECTION

Can anyone comment on the lack of a Mach correction (if my course notes are correct) on the activation AoAs for the shaker and pusher, and the lack of LRM on the auto-ignition?

moggiee

23rd Nov 2013, 18:23

On Boeings and MD, IIRC, the equivalent to VAT is VREF, but the latter only has one value: that for full flap with full L/E devices. Every combination of L/E devices and flaps has its own increment above VREF. VREF is always bugged on your ASI. You then add any config-required increment for the landing, and bug that as well. During the intermediate approach, as you you extend whatever devices are available, you fly the appropriate increments above VREF - like you do on a normal approach.
Not so - the performance manual for (for example) a B737-400 will give you a VREF for each configuration - so you would have speeds such as VREF30 and VREF40 where the number in the title indicates the flap setting . Then, using the BA SOP as an example, there will then be (typically) an increment added to that for wind and gust factor - usually something like "half headwind plus all the gust factor up to a maximum of VREF+15". Therefore with a steady 14kt headwind the approach speed would be VREF30+7kt.

VREF30 would be bugged with a fixed bug on the ASI, the moveable "command bug" set to the approach speed, and another fixed bug set to VREF30+15kt which would be the speed to be flown during the initial stages of the go-around (prior to acceleration and flap retraction)

Chris Scott

23rd Nov 2013, 22:02

Strewth moggiee,

That sounds like a poor-man's A320 (sorry) !

Does the flap also go up one-step immediately on go-around, giving the applicable VREF +15 regardless for the initial climb?

Must admit my last Boeing type was the B707-320B/C ("advanced") :8 , and I couldn't find the flight-patterns booklet before finalising my post.

Fox3WheresMyBanana

23rd Nov 2013, 22:37

RIP VC10

So long, and thanks for all the gas.

Courtney Mil

24th Nov 2013, 08:21

So long, and thanks for all the gas.

Brilliant, Fox3! :D

Exascot

24th Nov 2013, 11:19

[Quote]So long, and thanks for all the gas[Quote]

Was it the late 80s that we were running empty jets backwards and forwards across the pond on so called trainers to burn gas otherwise our allocatiom for the following year would be reduced?

Sorry working on smart phone can't get 'quote' thing to work. Not going away from pool and cold beer to post on PC :p

BEagle

24th Nov 2013, 12:18

Yes, in 5 working days we used to teach 2 crews oceanic NAT procedures and US civil/mil operations in bother benign and austere environments. A total of 10 legs, 5 for each student crew. This enabled us to clear the student crews for out-of-area operations with reasonable assurance that they would be able to cope on their own. It also gave the GEs a chance to train up new GEs; on each day they would adopt one trade under the supervision of the 'real' GEs - they were able to pack an enormous amount of trade training into those 5 days. Our 'States Trainers' were always programmed to suit the training requirements of both aircrew and ground crew.

We then taught the student crews AAR trail procedures on a weekend trip to Cyprus / Palermo with 4 x FJs. 2 x 2 outbound, with one tanker landing at Palermo and the other in Cyprus. Then a 4 ball inbound, with a tanker/tanker RV east of Palermo; one tanker taking the 4 ball the rest of the way, the other night-stopping in Palermo.

A proven, effective way of training which used to turn out crews trained for world-wide AAR operations. It worked well for many, many years.....until, that is, an interfering micro-manager decided to change everything, without any good reason except that he had to know best. Probably the worst Sqn Cdr we ever had....:*

And both the States Trainers and Trails involved quite an element of fun, of course!

Jhieminga

24th Nov 2013, 18:20

I've posted this in the Aviation History & Nostalgia corner but as it involves VC10s...: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/528509-vc10-records-1987-a.html#post8170681

I would appreciate it if anyone could add some more details to this story!

Oldsarbouy

26th Nov 2013, 10:37

Morayvia has kindly been offered the front 60' of a VC10 currently at Bruntingthorpe for our proposed Aviation Heritage venture at Kinloss. The cost of moving this substantial piece of airframe such a long distance is, obviously, quite high. It seems fitting that some of the funds raised by our recent limited edition VC10 Malt whisky could go towards this expenditure and we still have bottles available which would make a fine Christmas pressie! Please PM me for details. Half the proceeds from this venture are destined for the RAFBF which has already received just over £1000 from the auction of two bottles at the final VC10 Dinner :D
Homepage | morayvia.org.uk - Moray's Aerospace Experience (http://www.morayvia.org.uk)

Chris Scott

5th Dec 2013, 21:54

Hello moggiee,

One of the few and minor compensations of having to move from the Rolls-Royce VC10 to the Massey-Ferguson B707-320 was the well-organised Flight Patterns booklet, my copy of which has finally come to hand. It shows that the intervening 36 years and four types had indeed, as you indicated, muddied my memory somewhat.

Quote from me:
"Yes, I'd almost forgotten that [on the VC10] the VAT is config-specific. On Boeings and MD, IIRC, the equivalent to VAT is VREF, but the latter only has one value: that for full flap with full L/E devices. Every combination of L/E devices and flaps has its own increment above VREF. VREF is always bugged on your ASI. You then add any config-required increment for the landing, and bug that as well. During the intermediate approach, as you you extend whatever devices are available, you fly the appropriate increments above VREF - like you do on a normal approach."

Well, in the absence of any manufacturers' documentation for Boeing or MD types other than the old 707, my above generalisation looks fragile, particularly in the light of your response:
"Not so - the performance manual for (for example) a B737-400 will give you a VREF for each configuration - so you would have speeds such as VREF30 and VREF40 where the number in the title indicates the flap setting . Then, using the BA SOP as an example, there will then be (typically) an increment added to that for wind and gust factor - usually something like "half headwind plus all the gust factor up to a maximum of VREF+15". Therefore with a steady 14kt headwind the approach speed would be VREF30+7kt."

However, your source for the B737-400 appears to be the British Airways in-house Performance Manual for the type, which would not necessarily reflect entirely the Boeing equivalent. Although my 1973 edition of the B707-320 Flight Patterns booklet has British Caledonian Airways printed on its cover, the inside pages are simply Boeing, and my simulator and base training were with AA at DFW.

One thing I got right for the B707, as recommended by Boeing, is that there was only one VREF: the one for the standard landing config of Flaps 50 with L/E Flaps. (What was easy to remember was that VREF + 10 = V2 for the only T/O flap setting - Flaps 14. So the initial climb speed on a 1-engine-out G/A was VREF + 10.)

On the intermediate approach, and on finals, all speeds flown with less than Flaps 50 were according to increments added to VREF, which was bugged. So with Flaps 14 you flew Bug+30, Flaps 25 at Bug+20, and Flaps 40 at Bug+10. However, the bit I got wrong was that, for abnormal landing configs, once you'd calculated and bugged the result, all the intermediate flap setings were flown at different increments above the new Bug speed.

I seem to remember that, on the VC10, we stabilised in the landing config using a wind increment of 1/3 wind-speed ** above VAT, provided the increment didn't exceed 15? As you say, the B707 used a wind increment of 1/2 mean wind + gust, but again not more than 15 (and reducing to the gust alone at the threshold).

The B707 speed at the threshold seemed to offer a lot less "fat" than its equivalent on the VC10. No question of closing the throttles at 50 ft on the Boeing...

** Was the wind-speed used for the VC10 calculation the average of the mean and the max?