UK F35 Pilots to train in the US

[4Greens]

This proposal to train in the US results in large cost saving. Is there a downside?

[Eclectic]

Didn't German Starfighter pilots train in the USA?

[Willard Whyte]

Is there a downside?

No.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Is there a downside

YES

glf

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Does that mean that the OCU (if we ever form one) will be permanently septicside?

[cokecan]

the upside is the reduced cost, the downside is the sovereignty issue - if we lose the ability to train aircrew without US assistance then we lose the ability to not be friends with the US.

[L J R]

I thought a whole squadron would be based stateside as access to ALIS would be easier.....never mind the practicality of actually flying in your own airspace.....

[West Coast]

Ask the Germans, they have a long history of it.

[Heathrow Harry]

the yanks trained a hell of a lot of pilots for us in WW2 without anyone complaining..................

[chopper2004]

Also the Dutch with F-16C/CH-47F/AH-64d with the ANG and Army units in and around Ohioans Texas plus ENJJPT and IERW in Texas and Alabama. More so with them having the F-35.

Cheers

[dctyke]

I wonder where the groundcrew school will be?

[LowObservable]

There's no sovereignty issue. Where your pilots are trained makes no difference, unless you believe that the F-35 will remain operationally functional for any useful period without the active support and approval of USG.

After all it has been stated that the F-35 can't be operated effectively without a link to ALIS. And it would be foolish to discount the possibility that in a Syria-type scenario that went active, with some allies standing aside, a future administration would cut off or reduce support to the non-combatants in order to guarantee support to deployed aircraft.

You can't get everything you want at ALIS's restaurant...

[melmothtw]

Don't forget the Dutch

Also the Dutch with F-16C/CH-47F/AH-64d with the ANG and Army units in and around Ohioans Texas plus ENJJPT and IERW in Texas and Alabama. More so with them having the F-35.



Not to mention the Singaporeans (F-15SG) at Mountain Home AFB, the Saudis (F-15SA) soon to join them at the same location, the Emiraties (F-16 Block 60) with the Air National Guard in Arizona, and the Indians (C-17) at Altus AFB, to name but a few.

[saudipc-9]

Heathrow- I think you meant to say Canadians did under the BCATP not the Yanks. Some may have trained in the US but the vast majority trained in Canada.

[Kitbag]

Didn't German Starfighter pilots train in the USA?

I'm not aircrew, but I do recall reading in various publications over the years that training ab initio pilots in the clear and wide open skies of the US was poor preparation for the crowded skies and crrud weather found in NW Europe. Obviously the F35 guys will all be experienced, but I'd be interested to hear the views of you pilots.


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[ORAC]

If you want to practice stealth tactics it's handy to operate in sterile airspace where you don't have to be under radar control and squawking mode 3/3C.

[M609]

Norway does all flight training in the US. (And has done so since the 50s)
Basic and advanced FJ at Sheppard, basic for multi at Pensacola, advanced multi at Corpus Cristi, helo basic and advanced at Rucker, P-3 type conversion at Jacksonville, C-130J conversion at Little Rock, and F-16 type conversion with the ANG at Tuscon.

All of them end up operating in Wx not at all nice.......and they manage.

[Easy Street]

Our pilots will all have been through the MFTS sausage machine before the F35 OCU so will already have experienced the joys of British weather. Besides, can't see many F35s needing to make tricky weather reroutes at low level. US pilots seem perfectly capable of flying over here as well.

[orca]

Is this thread based on anything new or just an observation?

[Innominate]

"Heathrow- I think you meant to say Canadians did under the BCATP not the Yanks. Some may have trained in the US but the vast majority trained in Canada."

I think there were 5 British Flying Training Schools in the US under the Arnold Scheme, producing a significant number of pilots, with PanAm training navigators under the Towers Scheme. Admittedly the numbers were not as large as those trained in Canada under the BCATP but they still provided a fair chunk of the RAF's aircrew in the Second World War.

[GreenKnight121]

Not to mention the huge number of FAA pilots trained in the US by the USN aboard Sable, Wolverine, and various CVEs.


You can't get everything you want at ALIS's restaurant...

... Arlo Guthrie reference +10 points!

[GeeRam]

Heathrow- I think you meant to say Canadians did under the BCATP not the Yanks. Some may have trained in the US but the vast majority trained in Canada.

If you consider 'some' as actually a total of around 18,000 trained at the 7 x USA based BFTS and later Arnold scheme starting from the summer of 1941 :eek:

[Rhino power]

Norway does all its training in the US. / F-16 type conversion with the ANG at Tuscon.
Really? I thought it was just the Dutch that did their F-16 type conversion with the Arizona ANG (they have around five F-16BMs based there), Norway's F-16 OCU, 332 Skv, is based at Bodo...

-RP

[SpazSinbad]

Ordering pizza at Alice's Ristorante:

http://www.aviationweek.com/media/images/fullsize/Defense/Miscellaneous/ALIS_PMA-LockMart.jpg

http://www.aviationweek.com/media/images/fullsize/Defense/Miscellaneous/ALIS_PMA-LockMart.jpg

F-35’s Ambitious, New Fleet Management System 16 Sep 2013 Amy Butler : Aviation Week & Space Technology
"...The idea behind ALIS is a single, central fleet-management tool that will allow for truly predictive maintenance. Health data for the worldwide fleet will be collated at a hub in Fort Worth and provide analysts with insight of parts longevity or timing for inspections, for example.

In practice, it is intended to make fleet management easier from the unit to headquarters by allowing commanders a single system through which to view all aspects of the fleet. And Lockheed Martin's ALIS Program Director Mark Perreault says it is intended to make the maintainer's job easier. The F-35 is a data-intensive aircraft, and built into it are diagnostic tools that will alert ALIS based on pre-programmed parameters. This information exchange happens at the aircraft, when an ALIS portable maintenance aid (PMA) or portable classified aid (PCA)—ruggedized laptops used for aircraft management at the squadron level—is plugged into the jet for a download.

This use of digital tracking for fluids replaces use of gauges, says Sharon Parsley, a Lockheed Martin spokeswoman. The company boasts that flight-control-rigging maintenance now takes 5 min. for the F-35, compared to 8-14 hr. on legacy fighters, she adds. This is “something unique in fifth-generation systems,” says Tom Curry, Lockheed Martin's F-35 Director of ALIS, noting that its roots are on the F-22 program.

The use of ALIS also eliminates the need for paper manuals; all of the information is stored in the system and configuration updates are automatically provided.

ALIS is programmed to prioritize parts allocation based on principles agreed upon by all partners in the last Joint Executive Steering Board in March, Mellon explains. The agreement allows for squadrons in wartime operations to be prioritized no matter what nation owns them, he notes.

Each F-35 squadron will have a standard operating unit (SOU), a server on which the unit's data is housed. Each country will have a central point of entry (CPE), which holds all of the data from its fleets. Each country's CPE then transmits data to the single autonomic logistics operating unit (ALOU), which is housed at Lockheed Martin's Forth Worth facility and acts as a global fleet-management storage device. “It is the one place where you can integrate for each service and country information across the fleet,” Mellon says.

The Pentagon plans to field a second ALOU for redundancy...

...One of the complex tasks ahead, however, is to field SOU version 2, which is a more transportable and modular. This is needed to support expeditionary operations, especially those on the ship for Marine Corps initial operational capability (IOC) by the end of 2015...."
F-35?s Ambitious, New Fleet Management System (http://www.aviationweek.com/Article/PrintArticle.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_09_16_2013_p45-614645.xml&p=1&printView=true)#

[Hummingfrog]

Innominate

My father did his initial training at Terrell, near Dallas Texas, on the Stearman and Harvard. On coming back to the UK he was posted to Scone near Perth to do a 30hr European Weather Famil Course. He says this consisted of waiting for the weather to be less than perfect and being sent solo in a Tiger Moth. He says it was the best course he ever did.:ok:

HF

[SpazSinbad]

An example of a real 'Alice' Restaurant when it was at Subic Bay (alongside Olongapo) would be this bar: [now relocated to the US National Museum of Naval Aviation: National Naval Aviation Museum - Home (http://www.navalaviationmuseum.org/) ]

http://2.bp.blagspot.com/-or3dq6Uogqs/Uju93QzF-QI/AAAAAAAACgw/KfV-ULHcYyw/s1600/Cubi_Bar_Panorama1.jpg

from: http://elementsofpower.blagspot.com.au/2013/09/and-now-for-something-completely_19.html (replace the 'blag' with 'blog' to go there in both cases)
OR
Go here (PhtoBkit down as usual): Cubi_Bar_Panorama1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/92758306@N06/9844560134/)

[M609]

Norway's F-16 OCU, 332 Skv, is based at Bodo...

No.....but they do the TQP, tactical qualitfying program. After flying the T-6 and T-38 at Sheppard they do 6 months in Tuscon learning to fly the F-16A.
We have none of our own jets based in Tuscon, they fly on US aircraft.

For the F-35 we will have 4 own jets based in the US for training.

[Rhino power]

Thanks for the info M609, you learn something new every day! :)

-RP

[Heathrow Harry]

There's a good book out about the Arnold Scheme - available thru Amazon - the main problem was that the RAF trainees loathed the USAAF "hazing" system and the formality(!!) insisted on by instructors.................

[West Coast]

Formality?!?!

There's no place for that in the military.

[saudipc-9]

I had not heard of the Arnold Scheme before. Good to know thanks.

[NutLoose]

Re ALIS, seems totally over the top, my Audi simply pops up a Service on the panel and a countdown to that ;)

The use of ALIS also eliminates the need for paper manuals; all of the information is stored in the system and configuration updates are automatically provided.

Fine until it gets a round through it.

ALIS is programmed to prioritize parts allocation based on principles agreed upon by all partners in the last Joint Executive Steering Board in March, Mellon explains. The agreement allows for squadrons in wartime operations to be prioritized no matter what nation owns them, he notes.

Again two jets needing a part, one in a country about to get over run, one next on he list, who gets priority, and of course you have to get it to them, will the US in the same war fall as a second priority for that part?

[West Coast]

Just read where your lot is considering keeping your subs in the US should the Scotts get uppity and declare independence.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

A link to that "consideration" would be interesting; as how the Coulport element would likely to be bypassed.

[West Coast]

Here's the link.


U.K. Lawmakers Eye Basing Submarines at U.S. Port, if Expelled by Scots | Global Security Newswire | NTI (http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/uk-lawmakers-eye-basing-submarines-us-port-if-expelled-scots/)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Thanks West Coast. It looks like one of the routine "what if" papers has mysteriously escaped from bright buggers, central again.

[JTIDS]

Not one RAF C-17 pilot has ever done their initial qual to fly the C-17 in the UK, other than two circuits trips on their return from the states. Saves shed loads of money on setting up an inefficient RAF OCU. (How long does 15 Sqn take these days???) It's not an issue.

[orca]

I think it's at least worth discussion.

Purely from a practicality point of view it has to be better to train in the UK. All of us will remember someone dropping by the wayside for any of a myriad of reasons. Easy to fill a slot if the OCU is at Marham and someone from Yeovilton is told to be there by Monday morning. Tricky when trans-Atlantic. Small beer I know - but the costs aren't insignificant over a fleet's life time.

Also consider that we have a bespoke weapon fit for the aeroplane.

Also consider we have a unique Modus Operandi for the STOVL model.

Also consider that fleet management - for aircraft swaps, grades etc - is easier if your units are 2000 ft apart, not 4000 miles. So co-locating FLS and OCU makes sense.

Also consider that other customers might like a European solution.

But fundamentally, and directly related to the F35 - have we all forgotten what happened to the UK AV8B drivers when we opted for CV? They all (bar one) got sent home! So no need to look any further than the immediate past for a precedent for wanting sovereignty.

Of course, we all assume that the US will retain the ultimate sanction through some form of big red 'ground all F35' button.

Personally I think a US solution makes sense whilst we gather mass, but a UK solution would be better once we have done so.

[Evalu8ter]

Orca,
Good point, well made. If an F35 variant is part of the Tornado replacement programme then we could see an eventual force size nudge past 100 airframes (probably a blend of F35A and B though the extra gas in the C would help...) including attrition buys. At that stage perhaps something akin to TTTE/TWCU model might be in order? Convex in the US to leverage cost savings then a 'short' UK TTPs/Wpns/QEC course back in the UK.

It makes complete sense to be fully integrated at the start - perhaps not so in 10-15 years time.

JTIDS - I don't think learning to fly a modern 4-engine widebody with a few 'tactical' modes is really comparable to an all weather FJ.

Who knows, perhaps the F35 will trailblaze for the convex of UK Triton/P8A crews? Oh...I'll get my coat......

[Wrathmonk]

perhaps something akin to TTTE/TWCU model

What, you mean 50% of the allocated "OCU" time at a flying club learning 10% of what you really need to know followed by 3 months of desperately hanging onto the fin learning the other 90% (plus re-learning the 10% because the Tri-National bit taught you wrong [so the TWCU mafia led us to believe!]).

[JSFfan]

The RAAF will have the FA-18f/G pilots trained in the states, but have plans for an aussie regional training/service hub for the F-35.

[Evalu8ter]

Wrath,
Well I did say 'short' UK conversion!!! Implies LFE from Cott (though, perhaps, that's already in place as it wasn't repeated for Typhoon.....).

[SpazSinbad]

RAAF will start training at LUKE AFB from 2015 until 2020. Then training will commence No.2 OCU in Oz in 2021 according to this info dated Oct 2012 from:

http://www.raaa.com.au/convention/2012/presentations/pdf/AVM-Kym-Osley-RAAF.pdf (5.3Mb)

Click Thumbnail for big picture: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewerAlbum/th_RAAFtrainF-35AscheduleStates2020ed.gif (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewerAlbum/RAAFtrainF-35AscheduleStates2020ed.gif.html)