IRS Initial Position

[76mike]

I searched for identical posts and didn't find any. Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere:

As some of you have indicated, there are companies that want you to put the airport in the IRS Initial Position Page--as opposed to entering the actual Gate lat/long coordinates--to minimize the possibility of a "typo." Since many FMCs update the aircraft's position to the beginning of the departure runway when takeoff thrust is set, entering the airport position might seem to be sufficient.

But now, let's take a case where we depart KDFW (Dallas, Texas, USA) and do an Atlantic crossing. The airport reference point may be 2 miles from your gate (KDFW is huge). If we are flying without radio updating (over the North Atlantic) on a non-GPS aircraft, when we see the "IRS Nav Only" message, will the airplane "jump" to being 2 miles off course--since that's what you "told it" by initializing it to the airport rather than the gate? This is my question.

In "75/767 Mysteries Revealed" by Tom Gooch--a great guide to the airplanes--he mentions an "error vector." That is, while still over land (and using radio updating), the FMC (not the IRS's) corrects the airplane's position. The FMC looks at the initial position, but corrects the 2 mile error at KDFW by referencing VOR/DME's along the route. I'm wondering if this Error Vector stays with the airplane during the IRS Nav Only portion of the flight? Then, the initial 2 mile error wouldn't seem to materialize. Without this error vector, I am of the humble opinion that the airplane will be 2 miles off course in the absence of radio updating--since you initialized the IRSs with a position that was "off" by 2 miles.

[BOAC]

Without radio updating, the FMC position will gradually 'blend' towards a position referenced to its alignment point, since up to then it has constantly been 'corrected' by updating. No sudden 'jump'. IE in Tom's language, the error vector will slowly reduce to zero.

[DaveReidUK]

If an initial position offset is able to be corrected via ground-based navaids, it would be a very strange architecture that arbitrarily throws away that correction just because there are no more navaids within range.

[flyboyike]

76mike, I don't know of any companies that put in the gate coordinates anymore, we don't even have that information. It's an amazing coincidence that I actually flew out of DFW today, departed of rwy 35L en route to MSP, but I digress.

I don't think what you're asking is a big issue in 2013. How many non-GPS aircraft do you reckon are crossing the Atlantic nowadays, especially at the air carrier level? And yes, as Dave pointed out, the 2-mile error would have been done and gone by the time you made it to TUL, so I don't think it would magically reappear over water.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi 76mike,

Our 320 manual says "If a high navigation performance is desired, (i.e. for long-range flights without GPS and without radio navigation updates, or if low RNP operation is expected), the crew should adjust the airport reference coordinates to the gate coordinates, provided that this data is published or available on board. In this case, the flight crew should use the slew keys successively for Latitude and Longitude, instead of inserting the coordinates on the scratchpad, (in order to avoid errors)."

Only our FM position is updated on take off by a "TO BIAS". The IRS positions remain unchanged. The TO BIAS is continuously updated by radio.
I think your "IRS NAV Only" message means you are not receiving radio position updates and the FMS will be using the last "Updated BIAS" it received + MIXED IRS.
If you then lost FMS (Back Up NAV) you would only be able to see your onside IRS POS.

http://www.blackholes.org.uk/PP/IRSPos.jpg

When we had INS only, we could update the displayed position over a fix. It remembered that position bias until we either updated it again or "Flushed the Fix" to remove it. PFM

@ Flyboyike,
the 2-mile error would have been done and gone by the time you made it to TULIt will have been done and gone whilst on the runway during take off.

@BOAC
Without radio updating, the FMC position will gradually 'blend' towards a position referenced to its alignment point, since up to then it has constantly been 'corrected' by updating. No sudden 'jump'. IE in Tom's language, the error vector will slowly reduce to zero.
Very strange indeed.
Which aircraft and do you have a reference please?

[nitpicker330]

Flyboyike------not putting in gate co ordinaries any more??? We do and always have done since the 70's.....

We are talking about the actual IRS/INS aren't we?? The IRS/INS to my knowledge isn't updated on takeoff, only the FMC/FMGEC position. I would have thought you would still want the basic IRS/INS to be aligned with the most accurate position pre flight should they be relied apon for Nav in a redundancy situation later on.......

Info on gate Lat/Lon is readily available on Jepp or Navtech or other charts. At most Airports I fly from its displayed on the gate number sign 50' in front of your cockpit window!!

[flyboyike]

Flyboyike------not putting in gate co ordinaries any more??? We do and always have done since the 70's.....


We don't, and I've never done it with two airlines now. Mind you, there is a provision on the MCDU for that, but, as I said, we don't even have that info.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Not even on the airfield charts?

[flyboyike]

Only for a select few airports, but I've never entered it, nor seen anyone enter it.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Do you mean that the stand coordinates aren't on the ground/airfield chart for every airport you operate from?

[flyboyike]

Precisely so, at least not on the charts issued to us.

[Check Airman]

Stand coordinates aren't usually provided on the jepps for most US airports. I suspect that it has to do with the type of traffic though. My informal survey suggests that only those with international traffic publish gate coordinates on the jepps. At large airports like JFK and Miami, not all gates have the coordinates in front of the plane. Again, I'm guessing it has to do with the type of traffic usually serving that gate.

[punkalouver]

Do you mean that the stand coordinates aren't on the ground/airfield chart for every airport you operate from?



More and more just a GPS update nowadays.

[Denti]

Yes, but what does it have to do with stand coordinates in the charting material?

We use GPS/GPS updating for around 15 years now and still had stand coordinates in every charting material we used, be it jepp, EAG (i believe its now navtech) or nowadays LIDO.

That said, we don't use them normally, just the present GPS position is accurate enough for initialization, in fact it is usually more precise than the official stand coordinates. Not an option for non-GPS airplanes though, or flying with GPS inop, in that case the stand coordinates have to be used.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

More and more just a GPS update nowadays.

And for the ones that don't have GPS?

[Lightning Mate]

Last shut-down stored position.

As long as the latitude input is accurate for gyrocompassing, the Kalman filter will sort things out once airborne.

[FlyingStone]

Last shut-down stored position.

Bill Buffer's B737 FMC User Guide advises against using LAST POS for IRS initialization for aircraft without GPS, since it containts accumulated drift error from previous flight.

I know it's hard to believe, but there are still aircraft flying without GPS in not so navaid-saturated environment,

[flyboyike]

And for the ones that don't have GPS?


They have my condolences.

[JammedStab]

And for the ones that don't have GPS?

One can go back to basics. Pull out your Jepp chart that shows the ramp area and measure off the lat/long coordinates(maybe compare them with the aerodrome reference point to make sure they make sense) and then input those coordinates. Other chart types, I don't know if they show the lat/long coordinates in a similar manner.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Yeah, I know.

[bcgallacher]

The last position at shutdown should not be used as the aircraft may have been moved to another position on the airport .

[Old Boeing Driver]

In the days of the Litton 51's we always updated along the way over a known point. The INS would remember that posistion unless you updated again, or deleted it.

If you didn't update, you could be a bit off after a 10-12 hour flight.....

The last airplane I flew had triple laserefs with dme/gps updating.

The system always remembered the last update position.

[flyboyike]

One can go back to basics. Pull out your Jepp chart that shows the ramp area and measure off the lat/long coordinates(maybe compare them with the aerodrome reference point to make sure they make sense) and then input those coordinates.


If they want me to work that hard, they'll need to pay me more.

[underfire]

Interesting conversation to say the least.

I can see why so many pilots complain about RNAV DEP procedures, you cant figure out how to tell the FMS if the ac is at the gate or at the end of the runway.

[kenparry]

For example here in the UK they're talking about switching off lighthouses, because everyone uses GPS now. Already started. Orfordness lighthouse, a major one for 300+ years, was decommissioned a few weeks ago.

[BizJetJock]

Orfordness lighthouse, a major one for 300+ years, was decommissioned a few weeks ago.
Although the primary reason for that was land erosion, meaning that it's fairly imminently not going to be there. Not directly related to gps at all.

[JammedStab]

If they want me to work that hard, they'll need to pay me more.

Just pointing it out to someone wondering aloud how to find out coordinates of their location.

[Yancey Slide]

Some airports have Jepp pages with gate coords. No need to measure.

[Intruder]

You can get fine enough coordinates (within 0.1 NM) from the 10-9 page if there are not any discrete gate coordinates.

Today's Laser Ring Gyro IRUs are pretty accurate, even without updating. Old IRUs with mechanical gyros were much more sensitive to initial position accuracy. Also, the software that integrated them into the nav system was a key factor in how well they would take and hold an update. Still, it was possible to get good accuracy after starting from a moving aircraft carrier, as long as the IP was within 1/2 mile or so and the initial ship's velocity was accurately input...

[shturman]

Guys, today was flight from Budapest, gate 34. I entered GPS position in FMC and compared it with gate coordinates at the placard over the gate number. I was confused! GPS shows coordinates N47.25,9 But placard says, that gate coordinates N46.25,9. One degree latitude difference!!! I cheked it in jeppesen chart - N47.25,9. So, that's why i always use GPS position or ARP from database in FMC.

[flyboyike]

Guys, today was flight from Budapest, gate 34. I entered GPS position in FMC and compared it with gate coordinates at the placard over the gate number. I was confused! GPS shows coordinates N47.25,9 But placard says, that gate coordinates N46.25,9. One degree latitude difference!!! I cheked it in jeppesen chart - N47.25,9. So, that's why i always use GPS position or ARP from database in FMC.


I'm not surprised, God only knows who made those placards.

[FE Hoppy]

Hope you informed the aerodrome operator rather than leave the hazard there to trap a fellow aviator!

[underfire]

Gate coordinates in the FMC, ARP coordinates in the FMC?

Why would the FMC need either one of these?

[deefer dog]

As someone who has flown the Atlantic in pre GPS days, and who regularly managed to make my coasting fix (NDB or VOR) without any undue concerns, what precisely is the problem you are alluding to?

Might I suggest that if your GPS or IRS is not functioning as perhaps it should in this modern day and age, that you switch it off and go back to basics....assuming that they teach these nowadays.

I still fly all of the ponds, but still use basics as a back up to the modern stuff. Given the excellent wind/temp reporting that they now have, I manage to get within plus or minus 40 miles of the GPS displayed position. Never quite sure though whether it is me or him which has miscalculated!

Whichever way you look at it, and assuming that all is done correctly, eventually you will start to hear VHF voices on the frequencies and in the languages that you hoped for!

[Ozlander1]

I'm not surprised, God only knows who made those placards.
Probably the cheeepest bidder from the land of almost right. :oh:

[flyboyike]

As someone who has flown the Atlantic in pre GPS days, and who regularly managed to make my coasting fix (NDB or VOR) without any undue concerns, what precisely is the problem you are alluding to?


There is no problem. This thread was started by a Serious Aviation Enthusiast, who just got done reading a Serious Aviation Book, wherein was detailed a Mysterious Aviation Procedure in the absence whereof said Serious Aviation Enthusiast became concerned for his life and limb.

Much hilarity ensued.

[latetonite]

All those airport refs, gate positions, take off resets were useful before GPS was integrated.
Now just use one of the approx points, and the GPS will correct it for you. Within limits, of course.
Or do like most people do: use the GPS coordinates in the first place.

[flyboyike]

All those airport refs, gate positions, take off resets were useful before GPS was integrated.
Now just use one of the approx points, and the GPS will correct it for you. Within limits, of course.
Or do like most people do: use the GPS coordinates in the first place.


That only applies to people who actually get to do this every day, not to Serious Aviation Enthusiasts reading Serious Aviation Books.

[Westnest]

Gate coordinates in the FMC, ARP coordinates in the FMC?

Why would the FMC need either one of these?

That is what GPS is not localizing. An Inertial Reference with an ARP as a last IRS POS might the best for a specific SID at the airport. For pre-GPS days, it would be always the VORs or NDBs nearby, but at that days, most aircraft also did not have a FMS.